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The B.E.E. Podcast - 3/29/20 - Sam Wasson - SILVER (Patreon)

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2020-03-29 21:37:24
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2026-06
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Content

Author Sam Wasson and Bret Easton Ellis discuss the screenplay as an industrial document, Gene Hackman as a living artifact of 1970's film, examining the greatness of Chinatown and the postmodern focal shift from art to artist.  

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Comments

John Q. Thompson

Can totally relate to how Sam discovered films here. I did the exact same thing, the same way.

David

If this monologue was a book it would be my third favorite from BEE, behind Psycho and Zero.

Pablo Pappano

Bret I felt the same way about Invisible Man or Wo Man why would Moss's husband care so much? They don't establish much about her and she looks so bland in sweats through out the movie.

M. Nero Nava

BEE you’re a hero of mine, and I’ve endured and embraced your many quirky, inspiring, and ill conceived moods and theories. But, if you call this thing a hoax—I’m out! ::hits play:: Okay, 45 minutes later. I loved the introduction. Also, I walk by that McDonalds every time I go to my gym (Wild Card, near the corner of Santa Monica). That place is one of the grossest places in Hollywood... and they’re bulldozing the Jack In The Box across from Amoeba. You certainly caught CV19 at the Mickey-D’s. Breathe deep.

Daniel

Toddd why you so triggered all the time man, take a chill pill

Harrison Bergeron

Opening monologue is great American writing that feels completely of this moment. There's no other podcast like this one.

Binyamin Ironstone

The description of INCELS at Norm’s? Nearly killed me.

Joseph A Aisenberg

Deep into podcast, enjoyed the opening though I don't identify with Ellis' nostalgia for the 70s and 80s. Just want to fact check. Ellis says The Shining was most expensive movie made up to that time. It cost 18 Million according to Film Comment, 19 million according IMDB. Apocalypse Now cost 31 and a half milion. Heaven's Gate was 44 million (Cimino's The Deer Hunter was only 3 million cheaper than The Shining). The Empire Strikes Back for instance was initially budgeted at the same as The Shining, but went well over that budget. Both films would be somewhere between 50 to 60 something million in 2020 terms. I've always loved what Bret criticizes, that it's bewildering; and it's not as bewildering as Jaws (7 million according to Imbd) a movie which is poorly structured, repetitive, filled with logical incoherences, go nowhere plot threads and pointless character traits such Scheider's being afraid of the water. Definitely team Weird Ghost Twins on this one. And on the subject of Kael. Love her but her review of The Shining misses the point. She makes fun of how the ghosts are so evil that they're racist, which is ridiculous, as is her insistence that a more cliche tale with shadows and stairs and a pretty heroine wandering down them with a flickering candle would be preferable to trying something different. In this she sounded like Stephen King and De Palma, who ought to have known better. I agree with both host and guest, however, about Kael's review of The Long Goodbye, it's a terrific review of the film but it's also a philosophical take on what Chandler's trash and Bogart's image was doing for viewers. I also agree that most movies do seem like TV. You watch one in the theater and again on television and it more or less seems the same.

Alex Waller

Great Podcast this week! Its a real bummer that the theaters are closed. Its one of my favorite places to be. I'd like to add Prince of the City from 1981 to the list of great 70s carry over films, and in my opinion probably Sidney Lumet's best film, although is certainly a tough call with The Verdict coming the year after. Hell of a back to back for Sidney

M. Nero Nava

I do have one question (thanks to a friend mentioning it) So, how pretty does a woman have to be to be stalked and murdered? So every woman who was stalked and murderer was a really beautiful and sexy woman? Come on. For a man who has a command of aesthetics—that’s a pretty short sighted assessment. (This is in reference to Moss not pulling off the role as the protagonist—because she was not sexy enough to be stalked by the fucking invisible man)

PeZ

Great podcast! 1) I'd wondered if BEE already had the coronavirus because I know he'd mentioned being sick for a long time and not being able to kick a cough/cold for several weeks {I think that's what I remember.} I've read that most people who have it don't know they have it and think they've just got a nasty cold, etc that just hangs on. {P.S. don't mention this to Todd} 2) Saw Earthquake in sensaround for my 13th birthday with mom, dad & my sister. Loved it! Those huge speakers would kick in with the bass and shook the whole theater during the earthquake scenes. It was about as badass a movie as a 13 year old boy could wish for. Afterwards we went to Farrells for ice cream and as we were walking through the mall my dad looked down and found a $20. It was a magical day.

Nick Not Nolte

how the hell did “the trial of billy jack” make $90m !? 😳🤣

Billy Schafer

I think the reason even Best Picture winners like Parasite feel more like TV is because shooting on film stock is rare now. Digital cinematography has replaced 35mm as the industry standard. Digitally shot films lack the dreamy quality that film stock has. This is most apparent in broad comedies like Blockers and Good Boys. They look bright and crisp, but they don't feel cinematic like they're supposed to. Digital makes things look "too nice." Film stock is what always gave movies their wispy, ethereal ambiance.

john pica

“Bustling with dispair...). I love you BEE! If That place is half as disgusting as you portrayed it then no it’s not you

Joe Division

People under 40 can enjoy 70s movies? Who knew!

Sam Willis
>>34423948

It's called 'casting'.. Elisabeth Moss is an unbelievably talented actress and one of my absolute favourites, but she's not really a lead actress with undeniable star power, in the same way (to be fair to Bret) he said that Gene Hackman was / is not a lead actor.. IMO suspension of disbelief is key in movies.. There are plenty of actresses I can think of that have star power / charisma / sex appeal without being particularly 'great' actresses - Catherine Zeta Jones, Melanie Griffith, Kim Basinger.... I really think that Moss is a great - check out her incredible performance in this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyErKmF6xdo HOWEVER - although I haven't seen The invisible Man, I'd still wager that a 'hotter' actress might have been less interesting / watchable in this movie than Moss, so if Bret had got what he wanted, and Kristen Stewart had done it, maybe it would have been worse...

Q.T.

I have to take issue with you and your guests assertion that with anybody else but Polanski, Chinatown would have just been a nostalgic exercise in neo noir detective movies. Like Dick Richards Farewell My Lovely. Polanski’s contribution was critical to the movie that was made (as it should be with any director. William Witney said any director who doesn’t make a script at least 30% better isn’t doing their job). But I think it’s likely a 1973/74 Bob Rafelson would of produced something more then a men with hats nostalgic exercise. I would be excited to see a Richard Rush version of Chinatown too. None of them I’d probably prefer to the Polanski film. But a complete dismissal of every other version possible suggests Robert Townes script is not only not as good as people think, but outright bad. I buy Polanski not only contributed to the films classic status but added to its unique quality (the bandage on Gittes face for half the picture alone). But without him the film was doomed to be an entertaining but unmemorable detective movie throwback? I don’t believe that, and I don’t think you believe that. For instance ,without Polanski , do you think Chinatown would have been as good as the Richard Heffron directed The Rockford Files TV movie pilot you dig?

M. Nero Nava
>>34423948

Sam, thanks for reminding me ‘what ‘casting’ is. That’s literally what I do for a living. You completely misunderstood, or couldn’t wrap your head around a point. Not only does beauty not correlate with “leading lady” status, but BEE stated, verbatim, that Moss wasn’t attractive enough for the role. (BEE is also a homosexual, I’m unsure if he can really make that determination—about her sex appeal. Not that he can’t find a woman alluring, but fuckable is another thing ). Furthermore, what does your comment even mean? You go on about explaining casting, reference a really bad movie as an example of Moss’ work (you ever see Mad Men?), and than conclude the comment by saying she was a fine casting choice. Please don’t waste my time. Hahah. Come on, man. It’s called ‘making a point’

Billy Schafer
>>34432100

Same here. I saw it at a 35mm screening in New York. Tarantino, along with P.T. Anderson, Christopher Nolan, J.J. Abrams, Judd Apatow, Scorsese, and Spielberg still remain faithful to celluloid.

Matt

Loved this ep. Great opening and guest. The passion for cinema was intoxicating. More like this!

Nick Rowell

So theres no access to 2018 podcasts - Fritz, Tavana etc etc etc? Links appear as expired and no play function? Is this standard f u post payment treatment of subscribers?

honker_2021

Great episode - the monologues are always timely, fascinating, cultural criticism. The interview is the perfect guest, talking with BEE about 70’s cinema - couldn’t be anything other than a home run. Cheers!

Harry Roth

This was a fantastic episode. It's up there with one of my favourite B.E.E episodes ever. I listened to it while on my 'government-permitted' walk around Hyde Park today and it was the perfect antidote to all the corona shit that's going on at the moment. Listening to Sam and Bret discuss Chinatown in great depth was a dream. How about a monthly feature where Bret and Sam discuss a different classic movie in the same way? They certainly bounced well off of each other, right?

Jack

Maybe Bret could open up a "minimalist burger" restaurant.

Brian Rooney

Good take on postmodernism and the deconstructionist. Might be right.

David Kordahl

I've really been enjoying the recent run of interviews with writers. Great show. Thanks.

jana

monologue was more than most, maybe a a sort of eulogy for some resplendently detailed memories. like new York I love you but you're bringing me down. thank you for making these during the Virus.

Kovitch
>>34432100

This is true, but it’s because shooting on film has consequences beyond the ‘look’. And you’d be amazed what was shot on film (HBO’s The Wire’ for example) or on digital (‘A Single Man’ / ‘Zero Dark Thirty’). It isn’t always easy to assume the format if a director knows what they’re doing. The difference is digital cameras impact on other areas of the production - overall budget, number of takes, weight of the camera & its mobility, more improvisation, the precision of the lighting and - most crucially - what can be ‘fixed’ in Post. And it’s the presence of more work being done in Post Production (as opposed to ‘in camera’) that really shifts the feel of the final product. It’s why the ‘Wolf On Wall Street’ feels different to ‘Goodfellas’ despite the same director, or ‘Se7en’ has a v different aesthetic to ‘Zodiac’. This is where the technology risks erasing/intruding upon the feeling of capturing a lived reality. Tarantino’s mise-en-scène in ‘Once Upon A Time...’ shows you can combine the 2 if you have the resources (shot on Kodak 35mm, but background details built & composited in Post by 51 VFX artists). But most ‘auteur’ filmmakers don’t operate at this financial level, nor apply this degree of precision.

Andrew Lapointe

Speaking of 70s cinema continuing until the early 80s has Bret, or anyone else here, seen Cutter's Way (1981)? It's a terrific and very odd black comedy cum thriller with Jeff Bridges and John Heard. Released by United Artists the year after Heaven's Gate, so it was buried and kind of forgotten.

Billy Schafer
>>34432100

Sure, I get what you're saying. I understand how digital cameras simplify different aspects of production. It's a no-brainer for studios regarding production costs. I agree that 35mm negative films that combine traditional "in camera" techniques with digital animation in post (Jurassic Park, T2) look great. Once Upon A Time is a good example you mentioned; shows that even QT can be flexible about computers. To be fair digital backgrounds in 35mm film like that are just modern versions of old matte backgrounds; so I don't begrudge the new method. And yes, Fincher (who has shot all his movies digital since Zodiac) makes everything look cinematic. However, I feel a little cheated when I see a movie on a big screen that has the same camera aesthetic as a web series. It feels like "content'" not cinema.

Billy Schafer
>>34636250

Overlooked movie! Heard is great in that! Rest in peace. He deserved a bigger career.

Harman Virdee
>>34541345

Did the same, walking through the more drab, yet still charming, Walthamstow Wetlands

Harman Virdee

Podcast got its mojo back this week 👍🏽

Kovitch
>>34432100

Yep, I hear you. But I think that’s just tech alleviating the user from having to think about what they’re actually doing. Instagram filters are the most obvious example of this. Ersatz art.

Sven Safarow

Sam Wasson was criticised by some people because he didn't interview Robert Towne himself for the book. And he could have. I think, Towne should have been given the opportunity to defend himself or to tell his version concerning the Edward Taylor story. Did anyone read the book? Does anyone know why Wasson did not interview Towne? Good Episode by the way!

James Dardis

I believe that movies are falling from favor because there are so many other things to do. There is no urgency to see a movie in the theater. If you miss it, it will be available forever through some streaming service for a small fee. The video games of today are far more captivating and entrancing than space invaders and asteroids were on Atari (or any of the god-awful sports games of the '70s and early '80s). Also, I believe the actors have been replaced with movie stars. Some movie stars are good actors or become decent actors. The film industry is so profit-driven that, to make a movie the right way, with the best actors (who no one has ever heard of), no one would go see it. You need a huge name actor or director to serve as some sort of co-signing for the quality of the film.

JEREMY ROBERTS

Thanks, Bret - so reassuring to learn that you do things like visit a coffee shop from a long-ago era in your life that is obviously not the cool place; that you will go to a grubby/seedy McD's and eat French fries; that you you hate 'the rich'! ... Great dialogue with Sam. Ah - Chinatown. I saw it dressed in my school uniform one Friday afternoon in '75, quite mesmerized by Jack and Faye - and the legend of Polanski (I think I'm about 3 years older than you) - a kid starstruck and obsessed with Hollywood - living in Auckland, NZ. I fell in love with those Pauline Kael 70s collections - I even used to buy Rona Barret's magazine! - the articles were disposable, but the colour photos were fab. I still have memories of watching American Gigolo (which comes with you a lot) in 1980, which I saw with my mother. It remains a good watch - is it 'not a very good' movie? I've always thought the style and kind of 'quickie' feel matched the very seedy content. I identify with Sam's soundtrack thing. The first albums I bought were movie s/tracks. Yes, I had Chinatown on LP (today on CD) - wow. I'm looking forward to reading Sam's book - sounds terrific. Tangent: I'm still a little baffled by your 'put-down' of Brando. Topics for monologues/discussion: William S. Burroughs - your opinion? Hunter S. Thompson as humorist and prose stylist (Rum Diary, Songs of the Doomed, Kingdom of Fear) - ignoring the Gonzo image. I'm looking forward to The Hunt.

Andrew Lapointe
>>34680622

I agree with you about American Gigolo. I finally got to see it recently on the Criterion Channel. It's a flawed movie for sure, but it has a lot going for it style-wise. I also have the soundtrack on vinyl.

JEREMY ROBERTS

Gigolo soundtrack has a period sound. Should have had Donna Summer's LOVE TO LOVE YA, BABY - could've been Julian's anthem. The s/track seemed to foretell the whole Miami Vice music phenomenon.

Adam Skorupskas

Um actually Tarantino has read a ton of novels.

David Cortijo

Elisabeth Moss is super hot. Totally agree with the invisible guy.

Eric M. Rhein

Sam’s new book is an instant classic, a book end book to “Easy Riders, Raging Bulls.”

Eric M. Rhein

Like BEE says, Sam’s new work is the best book about how a movie got made

Franny Twist

subscribed for the covid lit (the monologue)

Mark Cleary
>>34423948

I think it was Argento who said we all prefer to watch a beautiful woman get strangled...or something like that.

Q.T.
>>34657756

I’m reading it right now. On one hand I admire his task of trying to lionize Polanski in this climate. Yet he really seems to do it at Towne’s expense. It’s not so much the Edward Taylor revaluation. Which while provocative is not necessarily damning. Wasson is understandably excited about this unknown detail that, like JJ Gittes, he’s uncovered. Any author conducting a investigation would be. But all of his quotes of Taylor constantly refute the idea that he was a co-author. And frankly I think Taylor should know. Neither Taylor or Polanski seemed bothered in the slightest that Towne won an Oscar for a script that they collaborated on. Because, according to Wasson, even though they made gigantic contributions. They didn’t write the script. Towne did. And despite some of his insinuations, Wasson includes enough quotes from individuals for me to draw that conclusion on my own. Which I suppose could be considered Wasson playing fair. My problem with the book, which I do feel is over written ( interestingly many of the faults he accuses Towne of, he himself is definitely guilty of. Over writing, long page count, Introducing a myriad of supporting players when really only six of are genuine interest.) , it’s also terrific fun, and can be vey moving in describing a period of time in Hollywood. My problem is in his rush to vindicate Polanski, he’s to quick to dismiss Towne’s script. The script that Towne considered the best thing he ever wrote, with its twisty turning plot, it’s passel of colorful pulp characters, and its serious evocative depiction of Los Angeles sounds fucking fascinating. He seems to turn Roman into a heroic figure primarily for massively simplifying Towne’s conception. Which while well done, and the movie we all know, Polanski just turned it into a movie. A good movie. The movie we’ve seen all these years. But Towne seemed to want more then that. And to one degree or another, Wasson presents him a bit (and only a bit) as a misguided chump for having those ambitions. Anyway, I’m halfway done with it, we’ll see.

Sven Safarow
>>34657756

Thank you very much for your impression! Maybe Wasson really wanted to see Towne as an "Author" like Paddy Chayefsky (which is an absolute exception). In order to have an identity as a writer you really need to be identified with one or two works that are completely yours. Maybe you can't really do that with Towne. Maybe you can't really do that with most screenwriters (except when they direct the film too).

Q.T.
>>34657756

I think Chinatown is completely Towne’s on the page. What Wasson is (slightly) misunderstanding is that Roman is just doing what a hands on director does. He lost the scenes he didn’t want to shoot, and he simplified the production to make it more manageable. And he emphasized what he cared about. Fair enough, because it’s up to him to take it on the floor and dramatize it. He only has so many days, so he has to decide how best to spend that time. But that’s directing, that’s not writing. I also think he was unduly influenced a little bit by Roman talking with him, but extremely influenced by Towne not talking to him. Despite whatever he claims, I think he’s mad at Towne for shutting him and Nicholson out of his book. He can’t take it out on Jack, so he practices passive aggression on Towne. And it’s in his interview with Brett. When he says, Towne’s script would just be a exercise in detective film nostalgia without Roman? That’s obviously biased horseshit . Would it be the movie Roman made, no. It shouldn’t be. But without Roman the movie was doomed to be forgotten. Who the fuck is he to say that? Still, I’m digging the book. But him deciding who deserves credit and who doesn’t only highlights he doesn’t know about how a complicated movie is actually created.

Sven Safarow
>>34657756

Wasson seems to be disappointed with Towne for some strange reason. I do think Towne is a very romantic writer (it's obvious), but that doesn't mean he's necessarily superficial or shallow.

Michael Walsh

I wonder, in your discussion of theater projection v. "television" if are you overlooking the fact that modern flat screens are so different from little square crt screens. A large flat-screen, with high quality sound approximates the traditional movie experience, no? What's lacking -the social aspect, the inconvenience, the aroma of stale popcorn- is ancillary at most.

MikeE

Someone had an ‘extra espresso’ on this one, sounds like!

Georgianne Levangie

Loved this episode - took notes - Night Moves is on the docket. Thank you!

Damien Smith

Empty streets aside, Bret being confronted by a sign telling him it's not an exit is probably the most surreal moment of the pandemic so far.

Damien Smith
>>35011423

I think it's a vibe you either get or you don't. I've watched my "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood" Blu-Ray on my flat screen, with stovetop popcorn, comfy couch, etc., but it doesn't touch the four or five times I saw it in theaters. There's something about the darkness of the theater, sinking into the chair, and yes, the stale popcorn...moviegoing is a very specific experience. I've been working from home so long that I never thought quarantine would bother me, but the inability to have my Sunday matinees has made me horrendously restless.

Michael Walsh
>>35011423

I saw (the last film I saw theatrically) Once Upon a Time in Hollywood in a really run-down theater, one of the few still open. And I found it oddly appropriate. I know what you mean by the experience . . . but, I just have the feeling that "you can't go home again." The movie theater began to lose it's appeal for me when multiplexes started multiplexing. The theater experience just isn't what it was. It's like visiting the grave rather than visiting people.

Jett

This podcast is a desperately needed respite from the insanity of today's world.

Antonio Primavera

"I didn't come here to study Caribbean lesbians, I came here to study literature." :) I said similar things when <i>trying</i> to study literature at Harvard.