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The B.E.E. Podcast - 8/23/21 - Douglas Coupland - SILVER (Patreon)

Published:
2021-08-24 00:01:01
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2026-06
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Content

Bret senses impending humiliation as his carefully cultivated world begins to quickly collapse in Part 26 of The Shards. Author Douglas Coupland and Bret discuss naming a generation, relying on routine to remain productive and mourning the loss of the pre-internet brain with The Extreme Self.

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Comments

Jake McDowell

The Shards has been a beacon of light during the last year. Thanks for everything Bret. 👍🏻👍🏻

Collin Myers
>>66375813

couldn't agree more. this podcast is seriously what i have looked forward to more than just about anything over the past year. i knew that dang horse was doomed.

J.

John Lurie needs to be on the pod! His memoir The History of Bones is fantastic.

NiceNeverKnowingU

Jesus Christ!!!! Now THAT is what you call a freaking Cliffhanger! Argh I want to know what happens next so so so SO damn bad!!

Alex Waller

I think we need to set the record straight on The End of Tour and DFW telling Lipsky to "be a good guy." DFW does not tell Lipsky this at the end of the film in some corny moment of inspiration. He tells Lipsky to "be a good guy" in the middle of the film when they are on the tour in Minneapolis. They are at the apartment of one of the two women they have been hanging out with while there, one of whom is DFW's ex from his grad school days in Arizona. Lipsky is having a conversation with the ex girlfriend in the kitchen where she gives him a journal where one of her poems was published as well as her email in case Lipsky wants to contact her about his upcoming DFW article. DFW can be seen looking jealously at this conversation from the other room. It is here that DFW confronts Lipsky and very condescendingly and awkwardly tells him to "be a good guy." DFW is clearly being a jerk in the scene, and to be honest it's a bit of an out of place scene in what is otherwise a great movie. For those not familiar, the film is essentially a conversation between Lipsky and DFW as they drive, fly, hit up minimarts, and eat at ihops and shop-esque places in the midwest. To give the movie some narrative to get from point A to point B, the screenwriter Donald Margulies contacted Lipsky and asked if there were any interactions not included in his book. Apparently this awkward encounter is what Lipsky gave him.

slimshadyfan666

The sex with Robert was the hottest thing ever and then the biggest anti-climax ever. How could you do that to me, man.

BUtterfield8

Loved The Shards! Come on though, please, let Shingee live. Great episode with Coupland too. And, what the hell? Todd and Bret broke up? At least Bret sounds very cheerful. I've been a dedicated listener since the first year. I feel so invested in Bret's life.

Chase

Dear Brett, I really liked this interview. I think you've taken the "so, tell me about your past trauma" question as far as it can go. It was nice to hear you go off script and just converse. I tell you what though: I'm missing dem monologues. I'm ready for the shards to end so you can go back to those. Seriously how much fucking longer is that gonna go on for? *farts*

Mikael Pawlo

”Up until last Saturday I was having a partner”? What’s happening? About 2.13 into the Coupland interview. Also: it was mentioned that final chapter of The Shards will be released ”in a week”, was that correct or will it be a fortnite as per usual? M

Brian Rooney

Though I haven’t been listening to the Shards (lookin’ forward to the book!), this conversation was excellent. More writers! More thinkers! Thank you Bret and Adam… It’s been a wild summer and I’m grateful for this podcast 🐝

Benny Poole
>>66400459

I think Todd has been going mental in a dustbin on YouTube and twitter recently- perhaps he’s taken the break up badly. Bret sounds as chipper as you like though, so good for him!

Kindrid Parker

When Bret asked who the first canceled person was I blurted out "Socrates!"

Collin Myers

David Foster Wallace is one of the most overrated artists of all time. His fiction writing is bullshit. I think his nonfiction is way more interesting, entertaining, etc., but millennials, for whatever reason, have latched onto this trend of making him out to be a saint. I just see him as a pretentious phony. I read Infinite Jest and I couldn't tell you, aside from one scene in that huge waste of a tree, what the hell it was about or what the point was. His fiction is insufferable. I say this as a millennial myself, and I will argue and die on this hill against all my hipster friends who disagree.

Alex Waller
>>66422701

No way, DFW is a great writer and Infinite Jest is an amazing book. Being a hipster or millennial or not is irrelevant and just preemptively discredits anyone who likes the book. The non-fiction is good but nowhere near as good as Infinite Jest. Don't get me wrong, anyone is welcome to not like his writing, I can totally believe people do not like the book, but the vitriol with which his detractors take shots at him just shows what an impact he made and what a great accomplishment that book was. If there was really nothing to him or nothing to the book no one would feel the need to go over the top with their criticism. I think Bret, his writing, and his podcast are awesome but his shots at DFW and the assertions that he didn't really want to write fiction and just copying Less Than Zero are laughable. DFW is a truly singular talent and people are just going to have to deal with that. That doesn't necessarily make him better or worse than anyone else but there's no denying what he accomplished.

James__

Great episode. It was the blurb on the back of a copy of Generation x by Coupland that mentioned Bret and ‘less than zero’ when I was at school in ‘94 so nice to hear them chat. I think Bret sounded a bit down; I wonder if he just has a really good separation of life and work and can just get on with things. Anyway, I guess he’s going through some stuff. Hope it gets better - we love you man!

Collin Myers

But I would just counter by asking: what did he really accomplish? As a fiction author? Look I will be the first to admit I do not tend to have complicated taste when it comes to fiction--there are a lot of popular or critically loved authors I just don't understand, DFW being one of them. And I would almost, as much as this seems like I am taking a shot at him, ask, would readers who love DFW still love him as much if he were still alive? If you look back at the 90s/early 2000s he really was not all that well known in his supposed heyday and I would argue that his style and moment was ultimately eclipsed and sort of one-upped by Franzen/The Corrections. It's not like Infinite Jest was this universally well-loved novel. It kind of had a second life in or around the late 2000s. I'm not preemptively discrediting people who like that book, Im just saying, from experience with people my own age who claim to love him, I cant locate why they love him other than they feel like it is cool or trendy or sort of a rite of passage to do so. No one really can articulate or explain or point to anything in the actual work itself other than broad generalizations, i.e., "so sad, man," "so heartbreaking" etc.. Like I mentioned, I recall one scene from the entirety of IJ, when the kids at the academy are bombing each other with tennis balls. It was a nice moment. But I just felt like those moments were lost in his maximalist pretentiousness. I read the whole book, man, I really gave it my all, and it really made no impact on me other than I wanted to immediately read something else. But this is just, I think, aligning with my taste, which is to say, not a fan of Pynchon, DeLillo, etc. I think DFW obviously had talent--but I don't think he was a great storyteller.

Seneca Garcia

Coming down from the coke come down that is submitting my manuscript to softskull unagented open call . . . Seems hopeless, but I took the Tarantino episodes to heart at least . . . That being said, I just came across Martin Amis’ recent Inside Story and i found it at the perfect moment - as a long ‘novel’ therapy session dealing with whatever mental fall out from submitting a novel - anyways it’s his best, his late period work and highly recommend.

Maxwell Rinehart

As someone with the last name Rinehart, I have this weird eerie feeling every time Bret says “Steven Rinehart”. It’s almost like I have an unknown uncle who was vaguely apart of this fucked up story 😂

Dirk

Insightful and revealing episode. Enjoyed.

Tom
>>66400459

Yeah he’s been going psycho on YouTube for months and saying some pretty awful things about Bret and his whole family. It’s none of my business, but I believe he is a kind person who deserves a lot better.

Alex Waller
>>66429143

First, I'll give you major props for actually finishing IJ even if it wasn't your thing. The Corrections is a great novel. Franzen is the man. It's probably a very safe bet that way more people have read the Corrections than IJ. I don't think really think of them as the same type of novel, as The Corrections is much more mainstream and more typical of "The Great American Novel." It's possible that there is a contingent of people who appreciate DFW for the This Is Water speech and his image as a bandana wearing slacker with a heart of gold, which while he was no doubt much more complex than that, I think that was a facet of his personality. All I can say is that I love IJ and all of its 90s glory. I think one thing that's so special about it is that it manages to simultaneously be a high art literary novel and a totally 90s piece of pop culture at the same time. The idea that drugs can't save you, that whatever your ideas of success are can't save you if there's something missing inside is a theme that's pervasive through 90s music and film. I think the themes that run through the alternative rock of the 90s or the films of someone like Kevin Smith all run through IJ. I think that its merging of avant garde literature and the pop culture zeitgeist of the day makes it such a cool book. Now, I listened to the audio book for IJ, so maybe that made it a better experience for me, where I could just sit back and get immersed in the world of it. I'm not trying to read anyone's mind, nor can I, but I don't think Bret would express the repeated shade towards DFW if he on some level didn't respect what he managed to accomplish. If he legit thought his writing sucked, and that IJ was no good, that he was somehow derivative of Less Than Zero(still don't understand that one), he wouldn't bother to mention him once, let alone regularly over pretty much the entirety of the podcast's life. It's totally cool to not be into his writing, or to enjoy other books more. Still, at the end of the day, DFW is an undeniable force to be reckoned with in the world of writers.

Jefferson

Why didn't Bret do anything to try and save Debbie? Pretty good odds she might have been at "the house." At the same time, nobody seems to want to talk to Bret either, even though he is the "boyfriend."

Juan Christian Guerrero
>>66422701

DFW's journalism was an incomparable damn sight better any of than his fiction, which, even to only the undergrad-trained eye, could be sussed from its get-go as having been plain evidence of one writer's self-consuming attempt to best Joyce at a very particular game that -- as the most sound readers of Joyce know -- does not even actually exist for any possible besting. This is not praise of Joyce, but it is an element of an explanation for DFW's demise at his own hand. He simply never knew which games, especially those moving as played, were really worth playing. Whence the superiority of his journalism: So actually respectable a mind and phrase-turner as he simply needed the merest tethers to the real, inescapable by dint of all potential impingements upon honesty, to keep his most impressive powers of focus at best aperture.

Juan Christian Guerrero
>>66385592

Where did this news of a breakup come from? One would alas expect Todd to have launched a total social media shitstorm about it... Hélas, that itself explaining precisely why such a rupture could possibly be merited. Hoping all's for the best.

Alex Waller
>>66422701

None of the journalism, as good as it is, touches Infinite Jest. not even close

James__
>>66429143

I don’t think DFW being a bit rude about Bret in Infinite Jest helped their relationship (Wallace describes one of his characters listening to some ‘truly depressing’ audio book by ‘Bret Ellis’ and it giving the character the creeps). I’m paraphrasing slightly, but it’s in there. I don’t really know what to think about Wallace these days. I read IJ back in the late 90’s and liked the challenge of it (you had to commit) and did actually read it several times. It had some pretty interesting sub plots that needed a lot of focus (like the references to Hamlet - I suppose he shared that with ‘Lunar Park’). I guess I had more time in my 20’s but the 40 something me could not get through it. That’s a shame. Agree, the other fiction was pretty average, although fancy. The only standout was the ‘girl with curious hair’ collection which had some good stuff and I think where the ‘less than zero’ connection comes in as there is a story about a rich psychopath.

BUtterfield8
>>66385592

Bret just made a little one sentence comment in the podcast. Something to the effect of his having been in a longterm relationship until the previous week.

Alex Waller
>>66429143

Yeah, Madam Psychosis reads Bret's books over the radio and its not exactly flattering, but its not that bad a shot.

James__
>>66429143

Madame Psychosis! You make some excellent points about DFW. IJ really is an interesting artefact of the time. I get quite nostalgic when I think about it.

WH

So it is a novel

Nicolas
>>66383132

I'm personally not a huge DFW fan and think that Bret's a better writer but at this point it's very obvious that DFW lives rent free in Bret's head. For some reason he always seems to feel like he needs to take down DFW when he's really not that relevant anymore anyways

Nicolas
>>66385592

Todd has been streaming pretty much nonstop the last few days and their breakup seems to be confirmed. Todd seems to be in pretty bad shape

JEREMY ROBERTS

The Shards sounds pretty damn well edited to me, Bret.

sleeper

I’m gonna be bummed when the shards end.

P Smoke
>>66429143

Thanks for your defense of DFW. I'm inclined to agree: Even if you're a detractor it's impossible to deny his talent or ignore the impact he has made on literature. Personally I adore his non-fiction and some of his short stories (Good Old Neon, Little Expressionless Animals, Forever Overhead). I get that he's not for everyone. But I can't say there's many other writers that have made me feel the way DFW can make me feel when I read his prose....There' a brilliant essay in Zadie Smith's 'Changing My Mind' on the 'difficult gifts' of DFW. Perhaps you've read it already but a shortened version is available here: https://fivedials.com/fiction/zadie-smith/

Pretend Gallery

Thanks for introducing me to Coupland's work! I'm an artist and writer too. It's great to know about an artist/writer working successfully in two fields in legit ways

Charlie C

Writers continue to be the highlight guests on the pod. Would be curious if Bret has watched The North Water with Colin Farrell. One of the most cinematic mini series I've seen in a while. Hopefully we get some opening review pods soon of movies/television he's watched.

Raúl

If Coupland ends up being the last guest of this season, that would be perfect. The way Brett announced that the last episode will be posted soon makes me guess that it will have no guest...

Benny Poole
>>66544110

Yes, it’s fantastic to hear him engage with someone on the same frequency, instead of some grifter with the usual old flannel about cultural Marxism or whatever.

Megan H.
>>66385592

Came here to see if that's the vibe everyone else was getting, too.

Tom

Is there a way to move everyone over to the BEE Podcast subreddit instead? Would be good to create more lively conversation about the podcast/the shards and brets other work, in a less insulated space. Would probably generate more interest in the podcast too

Michael Walsh

The novel was obsolete when movies came along, combining verbal and visual narrative (they replaced narrative art, as well). It hangs on, like movies, through cultural inertia. The digital technology that is replacing movies is not yet art, but it is, as you suggest, absorbing the creativity. Fans are looking forward to the “Better-Than-Bret” that Google will be producing. Soon. “The Shards” remains compelling. But, honestly, this episode wound up rather too fast. It feels like BEE’s eager to end it. A Civil War is coming, to be sure. Those who control the culture will win, but the elite mostly aren’t having kids, and if the meek –eventually- inherit the Earth, it will be because they bothered to show up.

Thumperdinck

Here's where I really disagree with Brett. Character is desirable. Sheepification is not desirable. Individualism ≠ Character Individualism = Atomization = Vulnerability = Sheepafication Tribalism = Culture = Identity = Character Tribalism > Individualism Like healthy people, Tribalism is not good for capitalism. Individualism is a corperatist's wet dream. That is why all local, traditionalist communities are being driven to extinction by the regime. That is why they demonize countries that actually want to self-govern. Individualism is a fucked myth, the regime's favorite tool, destroying us all.

Michael Walsh
>>66640108

Yes. Progressivism seeks to dissolve the horizontal relationships that unite people into traditional communities, to replace them with vertical ties that bind atomized individuals to the State and to its handmaid, corporate capitalism.

Pp358
>>66617293

I’m down after the end of the Shards simply because everyone’s theories on what’s true or not takes away from me just enjoying the experience and being in the moment.

Michael O'Donnell

Did anyone else hear Bret say the final installment of the Shards would be next week and not in 2 weeks?

grainpulp

Yes! The Shards is magnificent. Can’t wait for next week. Great interview. Love the literary guests.

Michael Bronspigel

Looking forward to the last chapter of this book, it is such a joy the way it makes me feel included in your creative process. Also, run away as far as you can from BPD, don't let yourself get recycled. I let that happen to me and my life opened up the moment I cut out a friend who had BPD, if you let them back in the recycling process will happen again. It sucks for them, but the world needs your voice and talent as a beacon of light in these dark times.

Joseph Orlando

Talk about a gut punch. Great stuff.

Mikael Pawlo

Reload reload reload reload reload

Matt Serafini

Bret and Adam, if you all wanna drop the last ep a little early today, we Silver plebs won’t complain (or tell). 🙏

Tom Davidson

I want to go on a walk today, and a new shards ep would really improve that walk.

Jorge Espinha

Doom and gloom! Jesus! Is that an age thing? Phillip Roth suffered from the same thing. I read most of what Coupland wrote, eventually I couldn't stand the characters. However one of the best lines I ever read was of a Chinese millionaire that said he made money by turning human fetuses into pavement, and by that he turned a lesbian into heterosexuality. A cancelation sin, these days. I really loved the podcast. I was hoping for this conversation.

Raymond Smith

How can Robert call Bret a faggot if he grinded and made out with him? I mean he could of talked dirty to prove he was gay. This was probably Bret embellishing the story. Also if Debbie isn’t found the story is fake because she is alive she has an IMDb page she was in the film mannequin.