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It's a review of Supergiant's two mega-hit roguelikes, Hades and Hades II!

I spent way too much time on this in every aspect. 250 hours on the first game, 120 hours on the second, and probably 25 hours tinkering with this audio and well as the giant in-depth mechanics chart I made (see below).

TIMESTAMPS:

1:53 - Transgender Law Center Donation Shout Outs2:39 - Hades (Spoilers)30:45 - Stuff Hades Does Bad58:02 - Start of Economy Problem1:10:08 - Hades II (Spoiler-Free)1:35:20 - Special anti-shout-out to the worst thing in all of the first game real quick1:38:33 - Hades II (Spoilers, a.k.a. "The Ending Was Always Good Actually")2:32:16 - They Updated the Ending and Everybody Clapped (It's the Same Ending) 2:48:44 - Extras and the True Post-Game Ending (Mega Spoilers)3:02:42 - Stuff Hades II Does Bad

I spend a lot of this review talking about the themes of the games and what I think they do well and what they don't. I do not spend a lot of time talking about the nitty-gritty mechanics.

If you want to hear about that, don't worry, because I decided to spend WAY TO MUCH TIME setting up a giant document covering both games' God Boons, Keepsakes, Moon Powers, Heat, Fear, and more. This one is so big you actually can't see the whole thing even if you zoom out all the way. Yippie!

Remember that you can mouse over any cell with a black triangle in the upper-right corner for my notes. And if you like reading boring notes on video game design, you can check out the other charts like this one that I've made for games like Octopath Traveler and Wargroove by searching for "Tier Lists" in tags on this post.

I'm going to try and get another audio review out in the next week or so covering a dozen or so animated films I've watched in the last few months. No promises that it'll be out by the end of the month, though! Amy and I are trying to replace our old car which we sold back in August and it's also our 4th anniversary on Halloween.

I'm about 28 minutes of editing through the Fire Emblem video. Either that or the Lemonade edit-down will be next. I for sure want the Lemonade video out by the end of this year, so I'll probably pivot to that a little ways into November unless I absolutely start GUNNING IT on the Fire Emblem vid.

Files

Comments

Dephony O

I thought both Hecete fights were easy and that both Scylla fights are tough. Normal Scylla and Rivals Scylla are the only bosses besides Rivals Chronos that I wasn't able to no hit(well the game still counted it as no hit because I was using the arcana that gives 3 free shields against guardians). Edit: Also hard disagree on moon powers, never found damage once an ioda of useful, but time stop and invincibility carry fights like Rivals Chronos and Typhon Edit2: God it's nice hearing someone else complain about how bad the dialogue stacking is when you are not dying every area at least 5 times. Edit 3: on 2:15:54, I think it's less than Melinoe doesn't have agency, it's more that the core conflict of her game is solved by the character of the previous game, which feels insulting ngl. And edit 3.5 is that in the change, the change that goes unmentioned despite for me being the most important one is that roles are reversed, Zagreus sarcastically asks if he and Chronos should hit it off because in here(despite his previous dialogue indicating he is already on board with sparing him which the fact that it is kept is kind of dumb but anyway) because he is the one doubtful of sparing him and Mel goes well if there a chance he could turn out good do it. Mel is the one convincing Zag, which is stupid yeah, but like it makes that the core conflict solving thing was her direct idea, not Zag's.

Julan

Thank you for the shout out to the Skunk Punk! Eventually I'll be consistent with having you shout me out as Julan or the Skunk Punk lol.

Julan

Oh also, around 19:00, talking about the story of Hades I: if I recall correctly from a recent play-through, Persephone was said to be 'missing' by Demeter, leaving it vague if she thought her daughter was just lost or dead. It's also feared by Hades that if Demeter found out that Persephone was kidnapped by Zeus and became the bride of Hades, not only would she unleash her wrath on Olympus, but she'd ALSO flip the fuck out on the Underworld for daring to take her precious daughter away. NOBODY involved would be spared Demeter's wrath. Also, Zeus is actually Hades' younger brother, but that's just pure nitpicking on my part.

B-beau

Yay hades! Also the homestuck mention at min 27 feels like a bad omen for something...

B-beau

Ye I'm sure it's fiiine

Demon Flower Studios+

I never got the hate for the hades 2 ending. The character decisions made sense for who they were, and I hate that media literacy has made people unable to tell that sometimes shit sucks but you need to make the best and make a better future. I really hope people can just, like, study how stories work? Idk just feels like people need to just be educated more? Idk if I’m on the right track in terms one of the problems with responses to media but it feels like as more people go uneducated, people who consume media just keep complaining and making it worse.

Robin F.

Man not to out myself as a terrible gamer, but I legit beat Hades on Run 80. So uh your 7 is quite astounding to me.

Noah Finch

Speaking of new indie games, I'd love to hear your opinions of hollow knight and silksong.

Hamyton

Oh wow, a quick review this time, only 3 and a half hours long, I can’t believe it

Noah Finch

Kinda wish you had added the infernal/nocturnal arms to the spreadsheet. Cause like, bow sucks so far for me, but I'm not good enough to both play and pay attention to why it feels so bad

JelloApocalypse

I decided not to include weapons b/c they're so preference based. Also there's SO many hammers and ones that are good or bad can completely change things on a dime. Plus there's so many aspects. If I don't like an aspect I just never use it again so I don't have enough test time to say if it's good or bad. The bow is a hated weapon for me because it's fire rate is SO slow, it feels awful. Plus the special is kind of piddly. I aim for the hammer that gives you x3 shots and ESPECIALLY Power Shot, which makes your attack stronger and, critically, faster on the draw. It makes the bow go from "slow and kinda bad feeling" to MASSIVE burst damage. The combo above also weirdly better as a melee weapon than a ranged one, which feels a little counterintuitive.

Noah Finch

Also hearing you talk about the difficulty it sounds like hades 2's difficulty depends on your own skill a lot more, where hades 1 is far more luck based and linear in a way that kinda evens the playing field in a bad way. I don't know if that makes sense, but like, that's how i see it.

Noah Finch

Zagreus He was right. Nothing happened. Damn... *kicks rock* *it's echo*

Vic Cutting

The only reason I hated the original ending to hades 2 is because like. I hate live updates I think they ruin games so bad, and the full release ONLY added the ending and like. A few quests So u was disappointed

woozy.y

38:25 yeahh the "the more u suck" element comes up here a lot cause whilst noticing that when playing, I never actually had an issue with it because when I first played it I SUCKED so dying a bunch of times in a row wasn't a problem/cleared the dialogue queue faster. It only became kinda annoying (and even then it was just like a sigh and carry on) in Hades 2 because well I'm better at the game now.

Noah Finch

*spoilers for hades 2* I think the ending of hades 2 would be better if they had like a purposely easy boss fight with zagreus (like a preview of his optional one, maybe that like you couldn't even die in, because hades/someone kept resurrecting you) because he didn't want to let you perma kill chronos, but like, he was holding back, and then after all that, Mel defeats Zag so she can kill Chronos and then just doesn't. She decides to give him a chance anyways.

Julan

Listening to this while playing Hades 2, it's especially funny hearing you talk about Nemesis and her progressing through the lower path herself because I just encountered her finally making it to Tartarus for the first time... on run 106. I like her but boy the gameplay difference from storytelling if you're good at the game is rough for her specifically.

Noah Finch

I also kinda hope if they add more postgame content it's about bringing the more reasonable olympians (apollo, artemis, Hephaestus, hestia, Aphrodite) into your fold, and changing them for the better. I don't know how that would work with the trial of the gods, but like maybe it just turns into zeus and or hera ordering the now nicer olympian to 'show some self respect' and melinoe and said olympian just kinda handshaking that they'll fight. Especially since hepheastus and Aphrodite actually are in love, and Artemis and Apollo are so charming. Also I like how mean Melinoe is to Prometheus, because it means she isn't better than Zag in every aspect, and she has some personal handicap that isn't a retread of the first game. Prometheus is stupid tho

Babblegum

not to be that person.. but I donated 100 during that hades stream during the run where nemesis ate your buff right after benedict donated, but you had just lost that run and were distracted so you didn't see it in chat at the time... and I guess never noticed it :( (first half of hades nuts 2 before stream beam, 39:28 Abby_Gale98)

CrescentSoul

Re:Hades 1’s dialogue queuing, a game that sticks so close to the ideal of reactive dialogue to make the world and characters feel real, that it ultimately becomes unreactive because there are way too many variables for each character to quip about, is hilariously close to a modern-day greek tragedy that warns against being too ambitious in designing a narrative

BeastAlchemistVA

Made a comic where Persephone had just given birth to Melinoe and Hades and Zagreus are with her in celebration. Chronos then slides into frame and tells them "She is adorable. I could just eat her up." The three of them just glare at him in response. Wonder how stacked that dialogue queue would be

Alex Peter Rose

> I didn't play early access. Was every spell twice as expensive in an earlier build? Is that why the devs seem to think magic as valuable as they do? Pretty much; the Gain boons were initially much weaker. Supergiant tried to have mana management be an actual strategic thing, and balanced the Gain boons to require thought and mana pots. But they never got the numbers quite right, it all devolved into "Grab Hera's cracked Gain boon or don't bother", and they eventually gave up and just handed out cracked Gain boons to most gods. (Also the Selene mana costs were initially absurd. BEAM was 100 something mana, polymorph was 100 something, fucking Howl was like 90 mana.) > [Strength] An incredibly useful card for players who got that dog in them and play balls-to-the-wall. Strength's just generically decent, no dawg necessary. Its eHP is already close to Death's, and the gap is well compensated by the damage boost and effective +66% healing. I'm pretty bad and it's still a clean sidegrade.

PurpleIsDebeste

yeah you basically covered all my thoughts, i will say the one thing about hades 2 i feel strongly about is the designs i love all the new designs, Hera and Hestia look great and i want Medea to marry me, but i feel pretty negatively about most of the redesigns. even the ones i love, like Artemis and Poseidon, aren't drawn from interesting angles or posed in interesting ways like the designs in the first game were. they're just a bunch of rectangles looking directly at the camera and i just... HATE some of them. Zeus's gold abbed bodysuit is so dumb, Dionysus loses his cool-ass toga that spilled like a liquid and suave pose cus i guess we really needed to look at his dick more (not that the new design being different is bad, but his new one doesnt have any cool detailing like that). and Aphrodite... okay im not gonna go all the way into it because i did and it was 8 paragraphs, but everything changed about aphrodite's design makes her more of a pale beauty standard front-cover-of-vogue formulaic design. which is a shame because her design in the first game being a goddess of beauty who had features that were like 2% unconventional for beautiful people was a nice sentiment that ig was unintentional cus its all gone now. and tbh i think a character being naked is almost always pretty boring and informs much less about their character than interesting fashion (or a tattoo!!!) would. especially in the case of aphrodite, where that's been done a million times by every terrible (and frankly usually sexist, lets be real) aphrodite design the past 100+ years. aphrodite has never had a good design in anything, it makes me so upset. also the white stripe on her face looks awful and clashes horribly with the creams/beiges in her colour palette lmao. it looks so bad. was it worth it, hades 2? sorry this is so long, i definitely got off-track cus aphrodite's redesign makes me see red, but i do think all the redesigns for the og olympians suffer the same flaws and it makes me sad. it felt worth bringing up. at least Chaos 2 is really hot :/

B-beau

Love how the true ending hades 2 is basically the ending of ghost trick

nightstar6

Spoilers for hades 2 ending I think Meg getting part of the chronos grandfather timeline memories, makes her choice to spare chronos less interesting. But on the flip side, it makes her choice to stay at the crossroads more impactful, since she now has some memories of the house of hades as a home but chooses the crossroads still.

Magnum

I want to point out something you got wrong in the chart, Hades Boons that say they do something to Chronos do affect the surface, Typhon takes damage or spawns fewer eggs. Hades even has special voice-lines for when he damages Typhon.

BeastAlchemistVA

Wow, the talk about people's lack of media literacy makes me sad. Growing up, I was taught about how annoying it is to state the obvious to people and now, seemingly, a ton of people lack the ability to perceive the obvious.

Bryan Davie

Ok but where's the teir list of gods from "WOULD" to "would but like a little less"?

BeastAlchemistVA

You didn't mention it, but did you know if you move faster than her Mel can preemptively take the route Nem is headed towards after an encounter? She even gets mad at Mel for doing that

SonicPsycho

When i watched one of your streams and heard the characters for the first time my brain went “if women are oppressed then WHY CHRONOS”

CulVols

Mana initially was harder to get in early access. Especially before you got the mana regen arcana. The best one was Hestia's which was originally just mana per second, but it cost you like 70% of your health. Also unlocking everything was initially harder because the very first build, you could only bring one set of tools with you per run, so if you picked up the pick, you couldn't fish or dig up seeds.

SonicPsycho

Is it weird that some of my favorite of your audios is when youre very angrily ranting about a topic? I mean its very funny but its also kinda cathartic cause i do this so at least im not crazy

SmurfsFetishist7

Skill issue but the issue is that you're too skilled is crazy

JelloApocalypse

OH NO!!! I'll give you a shout out on the next review. Sorry about that

Moff Muppet

Gonna have to get back to this one once I finally have time to play through Hades II.

Copacetic_Cloud

The long time it takes to finish the sidequests due to the queuing system is easily one of my least favorite part of both games, and is something that I always thought strange people didn't talk about in Hades I. On the topic of the ending, I do agree that the backlash was pretty toxic and a lot of people didn't pick up cues that were already in the game, but I want to point out that the update didn't only alter the ending, it also added and changed a lot of Chronos, Hades, Hecate and Zagreus dialogue all across the game, and I do think it adds a lot to the build up of the ending. About the Hecate and Melinoe reveal, I originally didn't know how to feel about Hecate being and alternate Melinoe, but now that Melinoe remembers her other life, I think it makes it more impactful that Hecate is the Melinoe that lost everything, and even at the end, because of her past decisions, while Melinoe gets to at least remember a better life, Hecate is denied even that.

Copacetic_Cloud

I had forggotten how awful the resource management system was in the first build!

Draden Cake

So it's wild to hear how screwed the dialog que is because I recall my first time hearing about Hades was a vid YEARS ago on its "Genius Dialog System" or something (thats what put it on my radar all this time despite never getting around to trying it). After your streams highlighting the issues, I went looking and found it! And I'm astounded that according to the vid (which has cut-in interviews WITH the Creative Director: Greg Kasavin) they DID have the printer que use a priority system?! So now I'm left wondering what that system actually LOOKS like if it just doesn't work well!

Alex Peter Rose

re: Prometheus, I don't understand why he calls Melonie "Agent of Change". She didn't change anything about the system, or have the Olympians be nicer to mortals or among themselves. She just returned everything to the status quo that Prometheus hates! The Fates did decree some far future changes, but that came about from Chronos banishing them and not anything Melonie did! What did she change that Prometheus cared about? It makes me wonder if a "Melonie more directly reforms Olympus" plotline got scrapped or something.

Elated Megalodon

Ooooooh, I think I realize what happened. So... A lot of the cosmetics you can buy for the House of Hades are also quest flags. Not just the "fixing the kitchen" or "get Orpheus' contract" stuff, you also just need to buy a certain number of couches and crap... Yeah, it's not great

Noah Finch

Wait that stuff is required??? It's not just cosmetic??? What???

Elated Megalodon

Yeah. Like, Thanatos just stopped coming back to the hall for me until I filled his little area with furniture

Benedict Ide

The mana situation in early access was a little weird- it definitely felt harder to get mana early on, but I'm not sure if that changed more because they rebalanced mana boons or because I got the arcana card that gives you passive mana regen. I think the... intention was supposed to be that you'd only get to use your super-moves a few times per fight, and they would be big and important and having more mana to work with would improve your damage output? But omega moves are in most cases not *that* much better than just running in and attacking with your basic attack- they ended up balancing them as more of a second moveset for different situations than a resource management thing. Even early on, the maximum mana pots felt like a complete nothing reward- mana *regen* was the thing that was hard. The difference between using an omega move four times per fight instead of three never felt significant, and I feel like the game would probably be better if the vestigial mana mechanic were dropped entirely and the cost of your omega moves was just the chargeup time- because that's the real cost of using them, 95% of the time.

Noah Finch

"It'll be a golden age of mortals" can't help but remind me of "it'll be a... STAMPEDE©" from the one piece movie

Drednot

If SuperGiant made another game in the style of hades, but tackled another Mythos. What would you want them to do?

Benedict Ide

I think the thing that was sour to me about the ending- I mentioned on stream, and you disputed that it really cut off any character arcs, because there weren't any? And like- that's kinda fair, and that's the thing about early access is that you have this whole huge game full of different characters who are *threatening* to have character arcs- seeing the final product, it's easy to say- okay, yeah, Melinoe is the only one who gets an arc, it's the central thing and gets all the focus. But in early access, Melinoe didn't have one either! Everyone was in a sort of stasis where their story wasn't allowed to start, and it was anyone's guess who would ultimately be focal. (In fact, it was precisely the least important characters who got the most focus in early access, since those were the ones they could develop without spoiling the plot.) It gets you "imagination-brained" because there isn't much else to work with. And like- in hindsight, yeah, it feels a little obvious that the main character would get the focus, and most of the rest wouldn't really develop, because that's what happened in Hades 1. But beforehand, like... the question on my mind was "okay, so why are they making a Hades 2?" This is the first time they've done a sequel, so there must be something new they wanted to do that a sequel was the right vehicle for. Surely they're planning to do something differently, right? And Hades 2 seemed... a lot bigger in scope than Hades 1 was. We're going to the surface, there's a war going on, Prometheus implies he has these grand plans- and compared to Hades 1 there seems to be a lot more focus on how shit the gods are, with characters like Arachne and Heracles and Dora giving you these personal windows into how they've fucked up people's lives horribly. The gods themselves are putting extra effort into putting their ugliness on display- idk if you got that one Apollo/Poseidon duo boon conversation about how the mortals were getting uppity and Apollo was trying to be the nice reasonable one by killing them with a plague instead of a violent storm. Chronos makes his Golden Age sound better than the "so everyone goes to Literal Hell" thing your family is in the business of enforcing. The enemy descriptions in Tartarus are like "yeah, these guys work for Chronos now because they're really glad he freed them from eternal torture and started paying them a fair wage". Melinoe looks up to comedically evil torture witch Medea like her cool auntie. Before the actual plot started, it sure seemed like they were putting down a lot of "are you sure you're on the right side of this war?" signposts. The whole time they were building up this huge sprawling uncomfortable conflict, I was wondering "man, how can they possibly resolve all this in a way that makes sense with endlessly replaying runs of Hades 2? they must have something really special cooked up for us." And also, in the game, Prometheus is telling us that he can't tell us what it is yet, but he has something really special cooked up for us, just wait and see, it's all going to make total sense. So like- the ending was fine for what it was, when it was the ending to the story of the finished product of Hades 2, a game that has Zagreus in it and is clearly communicating that Zagreus is a focal participant in the story, and which is mainly about the same themes of family and reconciliation that Hades 1 was about. It was a good ending to the game you played! I think what got a lot of the EA players mad was just that... it seemed like the game was making a lot of promises that they were doing something really big and complicated this time, and then none of that panned out. The setup that seemed impossible to resolve in a steady state of infinite runs of the same conflict got hand-waved away with some clunky timey-wimey bullshit, nothing that happened on the surface really had any relevance to the resolution beyond getting some eyeballs for a potion, and they just straight-up lied about Prometheus having a plan. Hades 1 I don't think had the same problem in Early Access, because every character's story was about their relationship to Zagreus and the House of Hades. Throughout Early Access, it was telling you who and what the story was about, and when 1.0 came out, no one was wrong-footed or anything. It was sort of the obvious culmination of where all this was going. Taking this larger-than-life greek myth stuff and spinning it into this very focused, personal story about relationships was the whole bit the whole time. By contrast, Hades 2 is taking this larger-than-life greek myth stuff and... kind of trying to play all the mythological gravitas straight a lot of the time. It had all these big ideas and wanted to flesh out its world more and take big swings, but all of that ended up being kind of window dressing for the same very focused story as before. Ultimately, I think that's kind of more on the players than on Supergiant. People formed expectations based on an incomplete product, and then those expectations were betrayed, but like, no one told us to form those expectations. But also, like... I dunno, it's an easy mistake to make when you don't really know what they're going for, because they're hiding it from you for spoiler reasons. I think Hades 2 was overall less thoughtful about how each individual part of it contributed to the story, and just kinda threw in every idea they thought would be cool, which kind of produced this situation where there was a lot more to be disappointed by. (I can't speak to the people who hated the ending for what it was, but then decided they liked it after Supergiant changed all of no things about it. What?? Did they just like feeling like they Won by getting them to technically change it?

PrettiestBeardedLady

So Dionysus is very weird in Greek Myth he starts as a completely different God in Minoan Greece (basically Greece before Greece) and he is one of the Gods that is surround by a Cult and cults in ancient Greece were extreme we don't know a lot about them because people who told about them were tortured and killed, what we do know is they had what we call The Mysteries which were tales of the Gods they worshiped and very few about Dionysus made it out, he was in "base" myth but we know surprisingly little about him. Part of the Mysteries we do know is about Zag and it is very messy they are the same god but only some times which is funny because Dionysus is often referred to as Zeus' son and Zag is almost always a son of Hades. It's very confusing and cool.

Drednot

The silver sisters and their gay golden grandfather

JelloApocalypse

You have the most valid reasons to be disappointed with the endgame of Hades 2 of anyone I've seen online by like three orders of magnitude I do agree that the signposts are for SURE there that the whole Olympian system is kind of evil and needs to go away. And that's... SORT of what the ending says is going to change? But the gods say it'll take several mortal lifetimes so it is admittedly kind of a bad resolution to the ambient vibe of "The Gods All Suck" that the game has been putting out. They definitely put themselves in a corner thematically by expanding the scope outwards. It feels cool when you're running up the mountain the first time but they resolved the story by making it about the emotional journey of connection of a few members of a family when really the story involved the lives of tens of thousands of people who all suffered for it. Whoops!

Cherry

I can't understand how anyone could consider the bow not the best weapon in Hades I. It is by far the safest option, feels great to use and does great damage. Also all of its aspects are great and its hammers too. Using the aspect that lets you put your casts into your bow then fire them all at once and boosting that with something like poseidon is the most damage you'll do without zeus.

Alex Peter Rose

This might be a reverse Hades 1 situation, where being *good* at the game produces a more focused story that avoids the pitfall you've described. For example, out-of-dialogue Chronos smugly brags about how The Fates couldn't halt his grand plan for world domination. Whereas in the successful story runs, Chronos is like "I wish things went better with my kids, and I've got nothing against you personally." And if you insert 4 mustache-twirling dialogues between those sympathetic moments (or saw 25 of them in a row because you played EA lol), that'll change Chronos' vibes a ton.

Alex Peter Rose

Insane implementation aside, do you have any thoughts on the Arachne questline's ending? Opinions are pretty mixed on it.

JelloApocalypse

I think it makes enough sense for both characters involved seeing as they're both stubborn jerks who would rather die than admit they're wrong, but it does kind of suck so put the player through the longest quest in the game for an anticlimax. Especially when so many other questlines already end in anticlimaxes (Hypnos, Echo, etc)

JelloApocalypse

The shield is pretty inarguably the best weapon in Hades I. The special has all the range of the bow, better damage, better speed, and a unique passive that lets you block almost everything in the game alongside bull rush which gives you an extra dash. Plus it has the fastest damage loop at melee distance because the special reflects back to you almost instantly. Like, my favorite weapon in the game is the Rail, but there's a reason Max Heat was accomplished with the shield first. It just has more built into it. I always hate seeing the Spear and the Bow as the selects for extra Darkness grinding because they're just slower than the other four weapons until they come together and you supplement them with a hammer.

JelloApocalypse

This is such a unique hurdle for storytelling. I legit think it's the single most interesting thing to talk about re: Hades.

Noah Finch

I think the only way they could feasibly make a "Hades 3" that has any chance of being good thematically is if the Main antagonist is Zeus.

Noah Finch

"I used to be known for my parties... Before the golden age of Cronos" - Dionysus, 303 BC

Emma Breslauer

I was also an early access player and I think it was definitely just people had hyper specific expectations that weren't met with the backlash against the ending. I was really taking my time finishing and jumped from PC to Switch, so I kept hearing about people not liking the ending before I got there. I heard about the "new" ending and when I finally beat the game on the Switch I was like "was that the new ending? cause I thought it was fine, I wonder what the old ending was" and I looked it up and I had just played the old ending since the new version wasn't available for switch yet 🤷 I was also like "wow they barely changed anything" when I looked up the new ending online, but I guess it was an overall positive change because I like that Persephone got a little less fucked over?

LittieScorp

I played Pyre 🥲✌️

Aerie

My cat has a habit of treating his food bowl as empty if he can kind of see the bottom, so to trick him into thinking the bowl is full I'll come and shake the bowl to make him think I did something. I'm glad the same trick works on hades 2 players.

Bonnford

Sisyphus pushing the sentences up the mountain

Folkloric

One thing I found kinda straight-up bad (bad writing) about Melinoë—and I think you mention it but it was a long review so I don't remember—was her unbridled hatred for Prometheus. Like yes: she is a Girl Scout, and thus would find his "illegal" actions objectionable just because they were against the rules. And of course he's attacking her family. But she HATES him. I can hear the venom leak through her lips as she calls him a traitor and a thief. And it kinda makes no sense? Like girl, you don't know him. You don't hold such a hatred for Eris who *actually* betrayed your trust. What the fuck girl. I haven't gotten to the true ending yet, but she's only calmed down *a tad*. But she's still super pissy.

Alex Peter Rose

It's hilarious how much Mel dislikes Prometheus, dude gets NO slack from her even in postgame. I agree Mel's being inconsistent, but inconsistency isn't necessarily an oversight or bad writing. Prometheus clearly rubs Melonie the wrong way, she's being a bit unfair because of it, and (unlike Chronos) she doesn't have much reason to reevaluate or reconcile with him.

PurpleIsDebeste

i adore the bow and getting trippy shot or artemis’s legendary with that one aspect you mentioned makes me feel like a god, but i basically never play hades with the timer. if i did i cant imagine using the bow cus its just so slow

Folkloric

I disagree. I think she's given plenty of reasons to at least reevaluate because most characters flat-out tell her she's being too hard on him. Even the Olympians are like, "Yeah, if we were in his shoes, we'd probably do the same." But even if they weren't, Mel has a dozen friends who were also fucked over by the gods, from Arachne to Echo, and like, but none of that prompts her to rethink things.

Ash Midnight

Just finished the Arachne questline today and BOY what a let down. I also got stuck on finishing Prometheus dialogue cause I did Dora's questline and he never said the one line he needed to say for the main quest. Prioritization not nearly as bad as the first game, but man that was frustrating to me.

Noah Finch

I think it's badly done, but the idea of Mel being a templar for Olympus is fun, even if it doesn't actually work in practice

Act One

I'll admit that I was on the fence on the ending at first, but after this review and rewatching some scenes from Hades 1, Im just like "Oh yeah, that's Zag being Zag". Genuinely think people just forgot because Hades 1 was 5 years ago, and Hades 2 kinda treats the Hades 1 characters as legendary, perfect heroes because we're in Mel's perspective (which was likely doubly true for EA players).

Jessica

Honestly have to agree with you about the original ending I enjoyed it well enough and when I saw the new one just thought of that meme of "Holy Shit two cakes" it was just more of what I enjoyed about the original ending. I genuinely don't understand the hate of the OG either everything made sense with the characters as they were so nothing struck out to me as wrong.

Chris Chin

A thing that got briefly mentioned in the review that I'd love to hear more thoughts on was one way that they tried to address the pacing issues from Hades 1 to 2. You mentioned that you ran into Eris in some early runs to mess up your runs, but I wanted to elaborate on that a bit. Basically, if you are doing too well too early in Hades 2, Eris will appear at the start of an area and give you the "Blessing of Strife" which scales damage per encounter, starting at 20% more damage and increasing by 5% per room. This happens in the first 10 runs (although I believe it used to be 12 in the early access) and every few runs she will show up later (so like, she won't show up after the first area after night 3). I say this because this happened to me 9 times over the course of my first 12 runs. While this does solve the dialogue pacing issue you mentioned in Hades 1, it felt incredibly artificial in a way that really bugged me. Now I'm not saying it can't be done, but this does essentially make the first 10 runs unwinnable. It was a part of the game that I felt personally very annoyed by, but somehow there was basically no discourse around this. Maybe because it's too in the weeds game design, or maybe its just something that not a lot of people ran into, but I felt like I was crazy saying "yeah, you can't actually win a Hades 2 run for roughly 6 hours" and no one knowing what I was talking about. But at least you ran into it once! Anyway I found this part of the game WAY worse than anything with the ending. I guess call me the Brennan Lee Mulligan of Hades 2, because my biggest complaint was the way it punished you for doing your best too fast.

JelloApocalypse

I assumed this was a way to introduce Eris to the fold mechanically before you engaged with the Surface route, because hypothetically it can take a player a long time to unlock the second run. This might sound crazy but I actually wish Eris CONTINUED showing up in Underworld runs. The fact that she just waits every single night to do the same thing while still being like "It's boring doing the same thing all the time!" massively pisses me off and I kind of hate her now lmao. If they sprinkled her throughout both runs in ways where she messes with you all the time I think it'd make her live up to her concept better.

Chris Chin

It is nice to give people multiple ways to meet Eris before she shows up on the Surface. Its sort of a reward to meet her earlier than her boss fight if you are good enough (I had some friends never run into her until the surface). I agree that it would have been neat if Eris kept showing up somehow during runs, if only to break up her monotony. They somehow made her boring if you run into her early due to her Underworld pattern which always gives the same "blessing", and then made her boring by making her the second boss. That and her being responsible for stopping early wins just made me dislike Eris from top to bottom.

Noah Finch

If they did do a hades 3, i think something they could do that would work very well that I'm shocked they haven't done is to frame it as a little kid being told a story by different people. Because I was thinking that obviously if they were to do a hades 3, the only reasonable step would be Hades vs Zeus, and like, imagining a little grandbaby of one of the Olympians (maybe Hebe, since I don't think they've ever mentioned her) asking people in the hub world about old stories, and then that turns into the roguelike part of hades 3. Because like many greek stories were famously oral, and the idea that the story changed with every telling is a very easy way to justify multiple runs through a game.

Noah Finch

And obviously the roguelike player character would be Hades himself, somehow.

Yoshimire

I actually agreed with Jello about some things about the updated ending, like I think the new lines are somewhat shoehorned in, even having seen the new ending first, but calling those who liked the new fanservicey ending more Pathetic Illiterate Dipshit Slop Swilling Consumers I don't dare share more than that

Alex Peter Rose

You wouldn't even need new events for underworld Eris, just give the sillier Nemesis ones to her. "Can I just hit you, I'll pay gold" and "Hit me hard baby" make more sense for Eris fucking around than Nemesis 'testing' you at her own expense. And the door griefing is VERY much in Eris' character lol.

Alex Peter Rose

re: The Unseen arcana, the Gain boons in early EA were utterly atrocious. I had forgotten just how terrible (almost) all of them were, but special shoutout to Zeus and Demeter: Zeus was a passive 4 mana/s for a mere 70% OF YOUR MAX MANA, which (pre-Moon Dust Persistence) disabled the staff's Omega attack until you found a pot. And Demeter took an entire second to activate and was only 25 mana/s, meaning it took 5 SECONDS of standing still to regain 100 mana. So The Unseen arcana made more sense with this level of competition (and no Hecuba). Or it would, if Hera's Born Gain wasn't a 10 mana prime at level 1 common WOOPS.

PurpleIsDebeste

i was talking with a friend about Eris and i think i’d love her if ahe was one of the boon givers like hera and hestia, because her sometimes being helpful and sometimes evil would lean into her whole fun chaos thing a lot better. Plus her giving Mel the boons to defeat herself would add a funny layer to their dynamic, and make her come across as less of a stock mean girl. I think in my ideal world i’d keep her underworld encounters and boss fight but also make her one of the boon givers that you only unlock after encountering her in the underworld for the first time. That way she can keep you on your toes and stay weird instead of So Boring

DWC

I like the talk about how the game pacing is worse when you're good. I beat the game on like my 8th try, I think the first time I got the shield. I wasn't aiming for 100% clear though, but having to try to get that sounds rough.

JelloApocalypse

It's so weird that a bandage fix for a problem in the Early Access is still there and still costs 5.

S P

I will say I agree with you on most points regarding the ending. I liked the ending pre patch, but I personally feel like more of the characters should have been angry, like Hecate was, at the choice to let Chronos live given the Crossroads mantra of "Death to Chronos." It feels like that should have been a harder sell, but we probably don't see all of the convincing she's doing while they have that rebuilding montage. I know we get conversations with them post game but they all seem "oh well, I guess we'll try it." I do think that the biggest change I'm sad about not being in the game's initial release was having the final boss be Rivaled Chronos, I think that's such a cool and fun way to make the final run feel special and different, even if they give you Unlimited Deaths. It feels similar to Hecate's fight being missing for that last run.

Dwight Stamler

Irt everything you said about Hades I: I couldn't put it into words at the time, but the things you brought up about its shortcomings are a big part of why I ended up dropping it without beating even the main game--and I am WAY worse at Hades than you are, Jello (it took me EIGHTY tries to beat the game ONCE). The exchange of resources ticked me off, because there was very little way to get the things I actually needed when I needed them, which stretched out the game to an annoying degree for me. And the whole "queuing NPC interactions" hidden mechanic meant I had completely befriended Medusa (my favourite character) LONG before Nyx fired her, which was ultimately the last straw for me and made me drop the game after defeating Hades only 3 times. I still think Hades I is a generally good game, and I had a lot of fun with it, and I fully endorse your 8/10 rating.

Art Enjoyer

Okay so I think the reason people had no pacing issues with Hades 1 but had them in Hades 2 were, as you said, because they were bad at the game when they started Hades 1. But with Hades 2, fans were comfy enough with the gameplay to just instantly be good, and Super Giant only *then* started to account for people starting the game by being *good* at it rather than *bad.* It’s kinda like what Silksong does compared to Hollow Knight, where with Hollow Knight there are no expectations of skill apart from rudimentary Metroidvania movement stuff. But Silksong expects you to have played Hollow Knight and gotten good at that first. Which for many folks resulted in an inverse of what Hades 2 got- a majority of folks didn’t master Hollow Knight and therefore got hit with a wall with Silksong which was frustrating. When it comes to first plahthroughs, Hollow Knight and Hades 2 assume you’re average at the game, Hades 1 assumes you suck, and Silksong assumes you’re amazing. And the extremes are where the problems pop up- when it comes to pacing you need to have ways to rubber band the pacing closer to where the player is rather than just making an approximation.

Marnie

I agree with a lot of the spreadsheet breakdown, but I think Strength deserves more love! I can appreciate death defiances, especially early into play time (I know I used them a ton!) But once I made the switch to strength, I haven't found much reason to go back. The damage reduction is so strong you're saving almost as much health as the death defiances would restore. ALSO it makes all healing items more valuable because they heal the same amount as they would without strength. (it does make some keepsakes and toula functionally useless though) oh, and it means Athena is easy to summon, and will never offer her death defiance boons making divine dash or defensive posture easier to snag (or righteous pike if you are running an omega build). I genuinely don't even consider myself particularly "good" at the game, and I found runs with strength WAYYY more successful even on high fear. It was scary trying out, but you tank and hit so much harder it is worth it. Also, I love the fate dice. I'm practically always running either a full dice spread, or a fates whim/jeweled pom spread. With all the fates die arcana active (yes, it is rather expensive for grasp) you get 10 rerolls that ALL work on nearly everything. It's never worth rerolling minor finds at the door (since artificer can swap them out) but the option to reroll a boon selection is major when crafting specific builds. If you play your cards right in ephyra you can all but guarantee a specific god from the pool with a single roll. Also make's getting duo/legendary boons all the easier since they have such specific requirements. (OH! and if your running denial for fear, it only locks the other two boons currently on the selection screen. If you reroll, you are still only locking out of two boons)

Art Enjoyer

So I will say I don’t think Eris is ruined by Moros. It’s actually a cool duality of the fact that two people can go through the exact same kind of strife yet only one of them will choose to make it an excuse to be horrible and the other will be kind despite or because of it. But like… it doesn’t sound like she does anything *beyond* that. They could’ve done some cool character evolution with that. It just makes her look like a dick in an increasingly less fun way over time. Eris needed to change or something. They could’ve done something cool where Eris reveals after some time “by the way I keep fighting you because Hecate is only treating you for the underworld, but she wanted me to test you for the surface. I hate doing what I’m told but I love fucking with you more.” Or at least gone the route Zagreus went of “you fucking with us is actually helpful, so continuing to do this is now your job” or something. She needed change.

JelloApocalypse

Yeah I would even be down for her being like "I'm not Moros. I hate it when people expect me to BE something" and her rebellion had any kind of direction to it, like she's specifically raging at her family or the established power structure of the gods, but she really is just raging at nobody in particular by doing the same thing every night which is like the exact opposite of her stated goal. It's so weird. Her being Hades II's Zagreus would've been SO interesting.

JelloApocalypse

That's true, I did always play with the timer on which is a big reason I hated the Bow and the Lance

ver.

I might come back with a more meaningful comment after I've listened to the whole thing, but hearing a wildly inaccurate Aphrodite impression after you uncannily nailed the other ones so far is sending me

Bulbanine

Man I would love a collab video of you and red osp digging into how greek myth is used in Hades. That would be fun

ver.

I'm really glad you reviewed Hades I and II because I've been SO hooked on these games, but I can't talk about Hades II with anyone I know because they either haven't played it or haven't finished the game, never mind the post-game! Sigh, I guess I'll just have to leave my thoughts here for now. I didn’t observe too many pacing issues with Hades I because I guess I was an average Hades I player. I did manage to have Orpheus and Eurydice make up before I beat the game and brought Persephone back to the Underworld. It absolutely made “In the Blood” and “Farewell (duet version)” much more satisfying than if the pacing were completely thrown off. I felt the pacing problem with Hades II though, because I somehow cleared Olympus for the first time after two Prometheus deaths and zero Typhon deaths, and it was pretty much smooth sailing from there. It definitely made me raise an eyebrow when one of the gods would say “hey, heard you destroyed Typhon!” and I’d think “yeah, where were you, that was at LEAST 5 runs ago”. The economy part was actually fun to listen to because I absolutely DID have gripes with it throughout the games. I found it really annoying in Hades I that I was at a Darkness deficit in the early game (normal), a mega Darkness surplus mid-game (normal?), and then another major Darkness deficit post-game (????). That’s essentially how I felt with all of the materials in Hades I. Meanwhile, in Hades II, I’ve been hoarding Psyche like mad even though I’ve maxed out my grasp, because the game is like “no, don’t recycle this, it’s useful for something”, but for WHAT? I was a twin fists main in Hades I, so I understand why you didn't like the axe. I also didn't like it at first, but it somehow became my favourite and strongest weapon??? It's a lot of fun with the Aspect of Thanatos (and BEAM!!!), because it essentially boosts the attack speed back up to a reasonable amount. That, combined with the speed-boosting boons from the gods and the Daedalus hammer, makes it pretty broken. Even with the base Aspect, I was able to beat Typhon first try because the 30% faster Omega special allowed me to deal bonkers damage from a safe distance. I LOVED seeing you use the axe at its full power in the VODs. I feel your pain as a fellow fishing completionist. Why is it so flipping hard. I definitely felt emotionally conflicted when I first experienced the ending of Hades II. It felt like the ending was way lighter than expected, what with the looming crisis and Melinoë’s heightened anger toward Chronos for kidnapping Hecate, but it seemed intentional (i.e., several of the characters also experience the tonal whiplash of the climax of almost killing Chronos and the sweetness between Melinoë and Chronos). Also, I got the new ending before I watched the original ending in your stream, and I didn’t even notice the changes! For all intents and purposes, it WAS the same ending! I do agree with you though that it did seem much cooler for Melinoë to - against her own impulses - choose to trust Zagreus and give Chronos a chance even when she DIDN’T get her memories back. I absolutely felt that some of the vitriol towards the original ending was because people had strong feelings towards the idea of forgiving and accepting a very problematic and even abusive family member (and to be fair, I empathise a bit). Ultimately, though, I thought that forgiveness made more sense in the Hades world because power dynamics aren’t as clear-cut when everyone in your family is immortal, and the granddaughter character has the power to perma-kill her problematic family members. To be fair to Supergiant, I feel like they intentionally left the Olympians’ toxic relationships and penchant for warring unresolved. In Hades I, Zagreus is very aware of how problematic his Olympian relatives are, but he explicitly lies to them through a lot of the game to make use of their boons, and the family has a pleasant reunion in the post-game ending. Even then, it’s clear that Hades and Zagreus don’t actually want to interact with the Olympians in close proximity much, and Persephone only volunteers to become a diplomat between Olympus and the Underworld to keep the peace (and visit her mom). In Hades II, Melinoë seems to me like she was so traumatised by her forced separation from her family that she had blinders on towards the Olympians’ problematic behaviours for most of the game. That’s why I thought it made sense that she hates Prometheus so much even though he’s clearly a victim of their disproportionate punishments, and why she doesn’t hate Athena despite the venom Arachne holds toward her. Overall, it seemed quite obvious to me that neither Zagreus nor Melinoë were actually going to do anything substantial about Olympus - Zagreus is content with the restoration of his immediate family, and Melinoë is content with ending Chronos’s war and choosing to stay with her found family.

Bonnford

Ok the idea of mind-fucking a guy with timeline shenanigans into becoming a grandpa is amazing. BAM! loving family beam. Pranked bro!! 20 years of cherishing your family

big blue dino the third

I have been playing hadies for about a week. I'd say I've died about 20 times and I have not made it. Passed the Hydra. (,: I thought I was doing good, but at least now I know why my sister told me to turn on God mode.

Aggressively Nill

Finally watching this after beating hades 2, I obv didnt follow the ending drama because spoilers so I can't really weigh in, but it's very mildly frustrating to hear that the scene I liked least for being clunky- the walk through the hall of hades after Melinoe's return- was bolted on after the fact.

Cathas

Love hades 2, small comment on the axe weapon which was my main but not for reasons of big damage(though it helped). I ran the axe with apollo a lot and with the thanatos aspect so I'd have massive axe and a reward if I got those hits in without taking a hit. Smidge more on the positioning and dodge but it did progress through groups pretty quick which got me to attempting bosses more often.

bdsmpretentiocrat

as someone who *suuuuuuucks* at Hades 1 i can confirm that the dialogue pacing is way better when if you don't even *get* to the Hades fight until run 60ish. you also get more dialogue that makes them feel like people when you aren't constantly needing to work through queued up dialogue referencing specific stuff and instead get a bunch of "hey how's it going man" ones

Wincent, The Hollow Knight

Late post but... man I think Dionysis is so funny in Hades 2... Not only because of the whole "Partying while the world goes under" angle... But also because when you meet him it is like "DICK IN YOUR FACE!" That bulge is NOT subtle. XD

Tea

I do agree that thematically the ending was PERFECT. It would've fucked with the message of hades 1 being "there is always a secound chance for everything" if they turned around and said "apart from this asshole tho". I think my main beef with the ending is how fast the turnaround from "we're definitely killing chronos" to "how the hell did zagreus get anyone else to calm down, long enough to be civil??". It also think it doesn't help that we don't see the bridge between the chronos we've been fighting and the chronos who's our gay granddad, cause they are a complete 180 from eachother, which makes the ending feel more cheap (even if it's still thematically and conceptually perfect) Then again maybe it's on me for not clocking that the games wasn't about to betray its themes from the first game ONE IDEA I had for a better implementation of there still being game post-game is using Mel's role as the godess of nightmares and just have the time shenanigans give her nightmares of fighting chronos and loosing, have a genuine chance of manifesting. Her interactions with the gods could be positive manifestations of the time shenanigans and presumably if she died too many times, the old chronos could manifest into reality again (with the number being vague so there aren't actual consequences for failing)

Joel McCary

The Hecate thing at the very end caused me to say what do you mean but like the good version

Cathas

Fashionably late to comment but wanted to add my cent on defending the Axe as my most used hades 2 weapon. I ran Aspect of thanatos to counter the slowness and apollo attack boons to increase the already big aoe. The idea is big crowd control for the non-boss combats with a benefit gained from getting better at dodging. Its definitely more of an attrition style battle but i found it fairly good at getting me to eris at least and from there if I beat her, I usually could get to the thyphon fight. My most used for Hades 1 was the shield though so maybe I just play crowd control or defence in this style of game by habit.