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Extra Credit 037 - Dungeon Crawling (Patreon)

Published:
2025-07-31 18:12:06
Imported:
2025-07
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We're joined by Gary Butterfield of Watch Out for Fireballs! to discuss the Dungeon Crawl genre in games and fiction! Tune in, fight monsters, find treasure!

Comments

Mandy Reznor (She/It)

So excited for this episode. I've finally started perusing my copy of Appendix N: The Eldritch Roots of Dungeons and Dragons by Peter Bebergal in the past few days, so fiction that's in AD&D's DNA is certainly in the forefront of my brain right now.

Jason Thompson

Temple of Apshai!!! 🙌🙌 (I sadly never played Telengard, tho I saw it in game catalogs)

superkeaton

Two great tastes that taste great together! I hope you can all get together for another chat on either network!

Dennis Newsome

This brought back so many memories of playing Zork (and all of its sequels) on my Apple II.

KendoHead

It was only a matter of time - Kaye and Gary have been referencing and giving nods to you boys since the HP Podcraft days. Really nice to see/ hear you crossing paths.

Jamie Brittain

An immense pleasure to listen to this, very happy to have helped broker it. Just call me the Don King of Podcasts (please dont call me that).

David Halstead

This episode came out at the perfect time for me. Currently switching between audiobooks for Dungeon Crawler Carl and Fritz Lieber stories.

Steve

Spent a lot of time in my late teens playing Wizardry on an Apple II at college. But Ultima Underworld was the first one I really felt immersed in.

Doc Singles

I'm surprised Nethack wasn't mentioned! Matthew Colville dedicated an entire YouTube video to it! It's a turn-based DnD dungeon crawler that's been around since '87 and it's free.

Thunk

Bring Back Butterfield!

Jamie Brittain

No, but they did mention Rogue, which Nethack is derived from, and roguelikes generally, of which Nethack is just one (insanely complex) exemplar of (in its traditional form).

David Halstead

Does the movie Labyrinth count as a dungeon crawl?

Forrest Rush

Hey Chris, you’ve mentioned before that you got into D&D because your dad was playing it in a church, and I’ve always wondered—did you ever talk to him later on about that? You said you were around eight, so I’m trying to picture the time period. I’m also curious how your dad—and the vicar, for that matter—thought about all the satanic panic stuff around D&D. Sounds like they saw right through it, but did anyone else in the church know they were playing on Saturdays? And if so, did anyone care? Which if they didn’t speaks volumes about lutherans compared to the southern baptists I grew up around.

David Halstead

My parents were on the D&D is Satanic train. I heard that growing up in the 90s. They would say people couldn't tell the difference between their characters and reality. Like they became possessed. I didn't buy that. They weren't real intense about it, said it like it was a fact they heard on the news.

Forrest Rush

and undoubtedly in that horrible tom hanks flick.

ESTY

Another modern example would be escape rooms: essentially mini dungeon crawls, with puzzles. Escape rooms and films both have the finite time element, as opposed to video games which often put more emphasis on timing. (Either/Both stressors can be imported to add spice to your D&D games).

ESTY

You mentioned Alien, but Aliens has a party clearing a dungeon room by room. Paul Reiser being the turncoat goblin in that one

Tara Murphy

Hey guys! I just bought a gift membership for a friend of mine. You already thanked me way back on Lair of the White Worm, as I recall. I'd love if if you could thank my friend this time. His name is David Roberts. I'm Tara Murphy, aka Evilcritter, if that info is not readily available. Thank you!

Eric - Speaker in Digressions

I grew up Lutheran as well; the Satanic Panic stuff didn't reach our house, and my parents even played D&D a little. Years later, though, while I was in graduate school in another state, my mother went fundie and asked me to get my fantasy and horror RPG books out of the house. She knew game play itself did not involve ee-vil practices, but she had learned at church that playing at the occult attracts demons who hang around and trouble you in other ways. This is not something one can easily argue against. It is, however, a kickass premise for an RPG scenario.

Eric - Speaker in Digressions

My most recent GM experience has involved Swords of the Serpentine from Pelgrane Press, which runs on the GUMSHOE engine for investigative games. In the GM-advice chapter of the core rulebook, the authors present the dungeon map as a model for structuring mystery scenarios. In an investigative game, characters go to a location, overcome obstacles to get the loot (information), and then, thus armed, choose which real or metaphorical door or corridor to explore next. So why not just draw up the adventure that way?

John Corell

It was probably discussed but cut for time, but there is a podcast connection to rogue-likes/dungeon crawlers and this podcast: Darkest Dungeon is a Lovecraftian dungeon crawler featuring the voice talent of Wayne June as the Ancestor/Narrator who ALSO read for the pod on Poe's "The Man of the Crowd"!

Rick Hound

I’d say the show adaption of Delicious in Dungeon is the closest to a “pure dungeon crawl” that a movie/show has made in most recent history

Newk

Chad's fireball comment made me remember a time my brother and I were playing dungeons & dragons and he got a hold of a rod of healing it was beating an NPC with it The NPC was taking damage but also being healed at the same time it was a great exercise of free will

Kip Barnes

I love modern games but I miss the old days of computer games. My mom worked for Sierra for a time so I had all the kings quest, quest for glory, Gabriel knight, space quest games. Also played monkey island, myst, return to Zork. More of puzzle point and click, but some elements are shared. When Sierra briefly owned Blizzard, my mom brought home the new copy of Diablo and it really changed gaming for me. I can vividly remember the opening menu music with the guitar and the low droning choir music. When you step into the church and the drum beats. Great memories. Diablo has changed so much with 4 being out. Also I think the FPS Destiny is a great modern dungeon crawl. The raids requiring balanced teams for boss battles and puzzles I think really captures what a dungeon crawl can be. That being said, social engineering in these games is diabolical. The level of addiction I experienced playing destiny made me not want to ever play it again. If you aren’t keeping up with the team playing daily getting the new gear, you fall behind, can’t hang, and end up being left behind. While I appreciate the a true team dungeon crawl, I think I prefer the solo, take it at your own pace experience.

Kip Barnes

Great game. Super depressing. Losing your whole party or a specific high level character in those boss battles can be crushing.

Michael Cunliffe

I wonder if anyone else played ‘Dungeon Master’ (originally for Atari ST. Featuring 3D dungeon crawling (although moving one click at a time) back in 1987. Complete with different characters, weapons, armour, monsters and a magic system where you had to memorise series of glyphs to cast! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master_(video_game)

E. Twan Crawford

The entire episode was great and I learned a lot about the mechanics of D&D. Reliving my youth of video game dungeon crawling was awesome, but you left out the 1993 classic. Bungie's Pathways Into Darkness. Many don't know about it because it was macOS only. I've always used Apple/Mac computers and there were slim pickings early on. But Bungie delivered, here's a link out so if you're not familiar with the story line. Crawling through a pyramid on the Yucatan Peninsula, encountering inter dimensional demons, dead World War II soldiers who give you clues via magic crystals. Many great hours of crawling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathways_into_Darkness

Richard Upton Sinclair Lewis Pickman

Wanted to shout out another pair of games which were clearly Diablo-inspired in The X-Men Legends games! They also include very dungeon crawler aspects, though it’s more of a series of dungeon-like settings, divided up by bits of narrative, much like the Diablo series, but with some of the most beloved Marvel characters and narratives.

Mark Simmons

Fascinating! I'm definitely persuaded that piecing together the underlying mystery narrative is part of the appeal of a classic dungeon crawl. As well as the aforementioned "Delicious in Dungeon," I'm also reminded of the explorable environments that Meow Wolf has created around the US, like the "Omega Mart" in Las Vegas. You don't have to fight monsters there, but it wouldn't feel entirely out of place... As for the idea that we're drawn to fantasy worlds because they have defined rules and clear relationships of cause to effect, effort to reward, I'm buying that too. I feel like that's part of the appeal of the "isekai" ("other world," i.e. portal fantasy) genre in Japanese comics and anime - unlike the real world, everyone understands the rules and the mechanisms of advancement are transparent and reliable.

Brian Pitt

Still have my old (beaten up) copy of Heroquest. Played a ton of that back in the day. Roguelikes were briefly mentioned at the end but that's what I think of nowadays when I think of modern dungeon crawlers. Nethack, Angband, Infra Arcana (Lovecraft-themed, you're exploring the Church of Starry Wisdom!), and so on all have the "start in town, descend into the depths" premise, let you clear levels, and so on. The main difference is the lack of a party and usually randomization.

Jim Cannon

I started at age 8 as well, that was a weird coincidence. It was my brother however who got me into the hobby, although he too started because he joined an after school club at the Catholic school we both went to. Weird how D&D eventually became associated with Satan only a few years later, but initially church groups seemed welcoming of the whole idea of a game of pretend, especially with the whole Good vs. Evil dynamic built into the framework of it.

Jim Cannon

Speaking of, I will once again urge the guys to do some more Jack Vance stuff (just relistened to "Green Magic" last night) and tackle some of the stories in the first Dying Earth collection. There's naught more D&D than a Vancian magic system, and those stories even include a few "dungeon crawls" if I recall correctly.

Tomas Rawlings

I’d add regarding older dungeon crawls, Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. The former has the Mines of Moria for example and the latter Smaug’s lair. They have secured coded doors, treasures and monsters. The reason why Appendix N of DnD does not call it out is, at that time TSR published an unlicensed Middle Earth game and they were worried about getting sued. But it goes back more as Tolkien in turn took inspiration from Beowulf where he dives under water into the cave to face Grendel s mother, and find treasure. But great episode!

Karl Haikara

Revisiting this episode, was really great hearing Gary on the podcast, I listen to Bonfire Side Chat as a huge Dark Souls fan and I remember him mentioning you guys when they covered Bloodborne so cool to finally hear a crossover.