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Bonus 5 - Conflict in Story (Patreon)

Published:
2018-09-28 00:47:54
Edited:
2025-05-18 02:52:38
Imported:
2026-06
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We're chatting about story elements, starting with CONFLICT!

Comments

Mandy Reznor (She/It)

I never really considered it, but the high emphasis on conflict probably IS why post-apocalyptic settings are so popular. Well, that and because they allow a bit of a blank slate that can be filled in with all sorts of weird ideas; a post-apocalypse done well opens up a wealth of creative possibilities. Take AD&D 2E, for instance. Back in the grand ol' days of an edition that HADN'T been reduced to a video-gamey dungeon crawler/combat simulator (he said, bitterly, even though he was born in the 'Nineties) Advanced Dungeons & Dragons had a bunch of bog-standard, iconic campaign settings. Krynn, world of the Dragonlance campaign setting, Toril of the Forgotten Realms boxed set, and Gary Gygax's own Oerth (pronounced "OIY-th," like a New Yorker saying "Earth")--home to the free city of Greyhawk. Amid this sea of sword & sorcery, high fantasy, and even Gothic Horror (lookin' at you, Ravenloft) the folks at Wizards of the Coast eventually decided to try something fresh. So they made Dark Sun. Athas, the world of the Dark Sun, wasn't your dad's campaign setting. For one thing, psionics--that wonderful idea that was always treated as an afterthought--had center stage as a commonplace part of life on Athas. Another was that, unlike on other worlds, the wizardly magic invented by the Athasians used the life-force of plants to power its spell effects, meaning cast spells defiled the plantlife around the mage, poisoning the soil for centuries. In addition to both of these things, millenia ago a group of powerful, evil folk who were 21+ level psionicist/mages discovered that their great power could be channelled into a terrible spell that would turn them into vast, immortal dragons. Of course, using this magic also stripped Athas of most of its plant-life, turning it into a blasted desert world reigned over by the city-states of the tyrannical Dragon Kings. The long and short of it being, Athas was a setting geared not toward heroism and high adventure, but toward desperately trying to survive on a planet that was inimical to all life. It was driven by fundamental, primal conflict, and it was good. It was also weird as all hell, which can't be stressed enough. I'd say Athas is the second most creative D&D setting EVER, right below Planescape (the all-time Queen of creativity) and right above Spelljammer (AD&D in SPAAAAAAAAACE!). Right, uhh...maundering AD&D rant over. I enjoyed this week's discussion. You are all free, now.

Sweatin' to the Great Oldies

Happy to hear your thoughts on conflict. One of the things that got me hooked on Japanese theater was my introduction to Noh. I happened to be handed some Noh plays to be read as literature at the same time I was doing an ancient Greek theater unit for performance. The similarities were striking to me and I was very pleased to find the university library had a copy of "Aeschylus and Zeami". Others had seen the same similarities. And they wrestled with something sort of wonderful: Noh certainly looks like theater. It has a stage and actors and a chorus and musicians and scripts and costumes and props . . . but most Noh plays are conflict-free. If you are at all interested, I'd suggest looking into the Noh. Please understand that it is slow, stylized, and even in an audience of fans you will be seeing plenty of people asleep.

Clyde Duensing III

Great show. I always love hearing about and talking about story, writing, etc., so would be happy to hear more shows in that vein as bonus content. A related idea that might be interesting would be a show or shows in which you two tell us about your personal journeys as creators/writers in the professional world. You guys have created TV pilots, a feature-length animated film, short stories, novels, comics, screenplays, etc., and tried to promote them in the real world. There have to be some stories there. You could approach it from more the point of view of the creator, the problems you had to solve creatively and how you dealt with them, or you could tell the story of trying to pitch and sell these types of things to Hollywood and elsewhere. Or Both.

Clyde Duensing III

I am a sucker for post-apocalyptic novels, games and movies as many obviously are. There are probably a lot of reasons why this is, but I think that one of most obvious is just that it is really easy to imagine the world going to hell. IMO, WWII and the development of the nuclear bomb were the biggest catalysts in spurring the development of this genre. It wasn’t really until the 20th century that we all really became aware that we could destroy the world, and that realization created a whole new type of fear that is best expressed in post-apocalyptic fiction. I also think that it is one of the most “realistic” forms of fantasy/sci-fi. It is fun to imagine epic stories of exploring the galaxy in FTL ships, but unlike readers during the golden age of sci-fi, pretty much no one believes that is actually going to happen anymore. We still can, and do, enjoy it, but it is no more realistic or possible than “Lord of the Rings” or “Game of Thrones”. However, post-apocalyptic fiction concepts frequently range from totally possible, like “Mad Max”, “The Road” or “The Hunger Games”, to semi-possible stories involving mutant creatures, zombie-creating plagues or genetic engineering, etc. And while some of these things might not always be realistic, per se, they are usually at least somewhat plausible. I think that realism attracts people to the genre as both entertainment and as a catharsis for our fears about the future. It also can encompass a pretty wide range of ideas and entry points into the main situation. The apocalypse can actually happen as the story progresses, allowing us to witness the breakdown of civilization, have recently happened, leaving people to struggle for survival in the aftermath, or have happened hundreds of years ago, settling up a whole new world to explore and experience. I also agree with you guys that one of the big reasons all of this works so well is that the world is changed from a normal, mundane world into one requiring a more simple and primal struggle for survival. But I also think that the comparison between the old world and the new world and what has been lost or gained in the process is an important element.

Clyde Duensing III

I can trace my own love of both reading in general and this genre in particular to when I was about 11 years old. I was raised to be a reader and certainly was already reading, but at this age I happened upon a book being sold as young adult fiction in some school-sponsored book sale. The book was called “Daybreak 2250 A.D.” in the edition I bought, although its original title and the title under which it would later be sold again was “Star Man’s Son”, by Andre Norton. This story takes place a few hundred years after a nuclear war and human society has returned to a more basic, more tribal type of existence. The main characters clan lives in the mountains and the loftiest position one can occupy in it is that of “Star Man” (sexist, I know, but it was written quite a while back. It was even originally published under the pen name “Andrew North” before it became “OK” for women to write sci-fi.) Star Men are explorers that go out into world, meet other people and learn of them, but most importantly search the old cities and other ruins for vestiges of the ancient knowledge that has been lost. The main character is son of a Star Man, and best in his class, as it were, but prejudice, due to his white hair, which shows him to have traces of mutant blood prevent him from being chosen as a Star Man. Naturally, he doesn’t accept this and goes off to explore on this own along with his companion, a mutant mountain lion that has a non-verbal telepathic connection with him. The story is full of awesome adventure, other tribes and races, mutant creatures and humanoids, ruins of ancient cities, still threatening radioactive zones, etc. I *loved* this book. It blew my imagination wide open and made me an avid reader for life. But I think the themes, which I won’t go into and the realism and plausibility of the story are what made it so effective to me. I really believed this world could exist. Years later, at a con, I was fortunate to meet and have lunch with Andre Norton, which was a big thrill. I remained a fan of her work throughout my youth. I still love “Star Man’s Son” and introduced my daughter to it when she was old enough to appreciate it, although it certainly isn’t as unique now as it seemed to me when I was young, back in the hoary 70’s.

Pumpkin Jabba Peach Pug

Great show! Damn, you guys dredged up horrifying memories when you mentioned the half-demon baby Days of Our Lives story line. Poor Marlena Evans (Deidre Hall) possessed by the devil, and I seem to recall it was Roman Brady's priest brother who performed an exorcism. Classic!! My only quibble, would be your distressing lack of respect for that classic of 80s cinema, Commando. Actually I cannot stand watching movies like that anymore.

Pumpkin Jabba Peach Pug

Oops. I cut myself off. When I say "movies like that" I mean to say films that depict the hero as a killing machine that is not subject to the damage that real slobs like us would suffer if thousands of rifle rounds were fired at us by Arius's henchmen. Much more effective if the hero acts like he has something to lose. Like his life for instance. A la John McClane, as you guys so effectively pointed out. Thanks guys.

Pearce Duncan

I assume you guys already knew that Commando and Die Hard were both written by Steven De Souza, and that at one point they considered making Die Hard as Commando 2, right?

MonsterTalk

See also Season 1 of ST:TNG for what happens when conflict is reduced.

Pumpkin Jabba Peach Pug

Alright, I concede. Commando is pretty damn entertaining. The scene in which Matrix reneged on his promise to kill Sully last is pure gold. The scream and the poor artificial person falling with its arms flapping about in ways no real human arms could is priceless. Die Hard as Commando 2....Gott im Himmel!!

MonsterTalk

With Jean Claude Van Damme as Hans Gruber? And Cynthia Rothrock as Holly Ginero. I would watch that.