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Bonus 8 - Christmas (Patreon)

Published:
2018-12-18 00:17:15
Edited:
2024-09-20 23:43:07
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Brilliant author Paula Dempsey joins us to discuss the pagan origins of Christmas! Check out her tome The Book of the Smoke: The Investigator’s Guide to Occult London!

Comments

Mandy Reznor (She/It)

Oh, those red-eared hounds are a Welsh thing! The hounds of Gwynn or Arawn, the Cwn Annwn ("Coo-uhn Ah-noo-uhn," or something like that) are ethereal hounds who hunt the unjust. Legend has it, their howls defy nature--the farther away a Cwn Annwn is, the closer his howl is, and the nearer he is, the farther away he sounds.

Steve

Great stuff!

Steve

My Dad was born on the 9th day of Christmas. I don't believe he was tressed up. That explains a lot.

Steve

Also, what happened to a cow and a cake? It's a Christmas Mystery!

Richard Horsman

And to get a little soppy, since it's the time of year for such things: I've been going back through the old episodes, and just passed through The Case of Charles Dexter Ward ones. A few into this run of five, Chad mentions how important the show is to him. I hope that's still true, because the feeling is very mutual. 2018 has been a heavy heavy year for me, but y'all in my ears every week have been a great comfort. Thanks, joyeux solstice, happy new yule, etc.

Blake Coleman

Hey guys, I'm currently listening to the episode and really enjoying it, but I just wanted to provide some clarification on the Christianity/Mithraism topic as I'm an archaeologist and have actually studied Mithraea quite a bit. First, we actually know very little about Mithraism since it was a mystery cult and that, by design, does not make for a ton of explicit evidence. In actuality, the only reason we assume it was likely a military cult is because the Mithraea have primarily been found in locations with high military populations, but those also happen to generally coincide with more highly urbanized areas.

Blake Coleman

The comparison of similarities between Mithraism and Christianity is generally considered to be significantly overblown by most historians and archaeologists these days. And by and large it's now widely considered that if there were aspects being borrowed from one to another it's more likely that it was Mithraism borrowing from Christianity as opposed to the other way around. The whole idea was really popularized by Ernest Renan in the late 19th century who was also pretty well known for his anti-Semitic views and revisionist works on Christian history . So... take that for what you will.

Blake Coleman

One last thing! The December 25th date of Christmas. It's often put forward that Christ for whatever reason was not born in December and that the date of Christmas was moved in order to coincide with/co-opt the Feast of the Unconquerable Sun on December 25th. This is not entirely accurate, but also not entirely inaccurate. So according to the Julian Calendar in the 4th century, the Winter Solstice fell on December 25th. Of course, our modern (hopefully more astronomically accurate) Gregorian Calendar places the Winter Solstice a few days earlier. So yes, the Feast of Sol Invictus was on December 25th and coincided with the Winter Solstice. Now, the reason for the date of Christmas is pretty convoluted, so stay with me. So, in early Christian/Late Antique thought the Creation of the man happened on the Spring Equinox, and in those days significant days were cyclical. So it would therefore mean that the creation of the "new man" i.e. Christ would also occur on the Spring Equinox, which was thought to be March 25th at the time. (That's why March 25th is Annunciation Day, or the day the angel Gabriel told Mary that she would bear the Son of God.) And what's precisely 9 months after March 25th? December 25th! Hence the reason for the date of Christmas. The fact that it also coincided with the Feast of the Unconquered Sun was acknowledged in early Church calendars, but there was no intention of syncretism or co-opting. The same goes with Saturnalia. As Chad stated it was really wild in Late Antiquity and the Church actually took great offense at any comparison between the two. Saturnalia existed for centuries (in a more subdued manner) separate, but alongside Christmas, and it was only in the last few centuries that its last vestiges were fully integrated into Christmas celebrations. One last note, the feast of the Unconquered Sun on December 25th was not related to the birth of Mithras, but of Sol Invictus, and the only reason we know that is from an early Christian Calendar. Also, Chris mentioned that shepherds are sometimes depicted in artistic renditions of the birth of Mithras, but those are actually his torchbearers Cautes and Cautopates who appear in much of his representation (usually not in shepherd garb).

Blake Coleman

So, again, I really, really enjoyed the episode. As I enjoy every episode, I just wanted to illuminate a little bit on the Mithraism/Christianity topic since that's something that I've encountered a lot personally, academically, and professionally. Also, you're right about all the super weird Yule traditions. They're super weird and super great! Anyway, thanks for indulging me. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all!

Blake Coleman

Oh! Almost forgot. Sorry. The idea that shepherds would not be out in December is actually inaccurate, since the fields utilized were for the Temple flock at the time and those were kept grazing all year. And, just as something extra if you happen to spend Christmas in Bethlehem even these days you may very well see Shepherds and their flocks abiding in the fields on Christmas Eve (and not because they want to maintain tradition). Okay. Sorry, for all the posts, I just really love the origins of beliefs and traditions (Christmas especially). :)

NoSignal

Holy Shit is Santa really Odin? Does St. Nick have a glass eye like Ian McShane? Mind blown.

Jeff C. Carter

Awesome episode! I have been geeking out about Pagan Christmas traditions so hard that I...designed a table top game called 'Lords of Misrule' for my friends. A few tidbits I have uncovered that weren't on the show: Nuutipukki the goat demon that also trashes your house if you haven't taken down your decorations, Frau Perchta the witch that slits open the bellies of naughty children and fills them with pebbles and straw, Belsnickel the crossdressing Christmas hobo, Olentzero who slices the throats of children that won’t go to sleep on Christmas Eve, Le Père Fouettard the whip wielding child killer, Hans Trapp the Satan worshipping child-eating scarecrow, and Tio de Nadal the treat pooping Christmas Log. Do yourself a favor and look up some of the lyrics to the songs children sing while they beat it with a stick.

Jon Hancock

I'm really not sure that playing hide the pickle is quite the family-friendly activity you suggest...

Christine M

I've been enjoying the Yule Lad posts on Facebook, and got a kick out of seeing Grýla and her Lads in the Christmas episode of Chilling Adventures of Sabrina! (Fun show BTW - not strictly Lovecraftian, but creepy fun, and includes some HPL Easter eggs.)

Ricardo Madrid

Have you guys checked out Christmas Horror Story? Its on Netflix. It is four Christmas themed horror stories set in the same town and are vaguely connected. It touches on different Christmas monsters and terrors like Krampus, ghosts, and changelings. And best of all William Shatner plays a drunk radio DJ throughout.

Mark Brett

My personal favorite Anti-Santa is Knecht Ruprecht, an evil farmer who disposes of the bad children for Saint Nick by shoving them into a sack and tossing them into a river to drown. Lesser offenders just get switches or rocks, or get smacked with a bag of ashes. So he's basically a low-rent Krampus. But the idea of an evil farmer just cracks me up.

Jeremy Impson

I've like them all, but this was my favorite Bonus episode so far. Thank you, and happy Yuletide, Solstice, Christmas, Kwanzaa, Hannukah, New Year, and everything else you got!

Jeremy Impson

Guys, Greig Johnson's 2018 Christmas video is BUCK! WILD! I strongly recommend it, especially if you are into Muppets and (modern definition of) weirdness. And he hasn't paid me to say this either.

Joel Palmborg

Don’t know if this is worth a note, but it came to mind when you mentioned that Odin wore blue, that back then, blue was actually the colour black.

Joel Palmborg

And another thing came to mind hearing the pickle story. Here in Sweden, we have an old tradition, that if you got the Almond in the porridge you would be married in the coming year, or receive great luck.

Background Noise Comic

We have a glass pickle on our tree, given to us by a Russian friend. And our decorations were up way past 12th night- which may be why our house looks trashed.