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Episode 441 - The Rat (Patreon)

Published:
2019-02-28 20:40:41
Edited:
2024-12-12 19:03:29
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

We're once again talking immortality and its costs! It's The Rat by S. Fowler Wright!

Special thanks to reader Mike Cuellar, host of The Weird Tales Podcast!

Next up: A Rose for Emily by William Faulkner

Comments

Rick Hound

Seems like you should just do a rat themed month since the constant stories of these demoniacal rodents

Wulf Mungus

While listening to the discussion of the repercussions and ramifications of perpetual youth, I could help wonder on how it would effect prisoners. The Death penalty is the Death penalty, but how much impact would a 30 yr life sentence have if you knew you still had another 100+ years to look forward to after you got out? Would increasing the number of years served even matter?

Mandy Reznor (She/It)

Glad to see a tale point out one of the many things about rats that are lovable. ... ...MANY THINGS THAT ARE LOVABLE, CHAD. Anyway, while a decent tale overall, the ending does rather sour on me. He and his wife get to live happily forever after, the crisis of unleashing this serum on the world averted? No. Ignoring your own complaints about their existence being proof of the thing, the fact he made the serum at all means it's POSSIBLE--and we know damn well humans will naturally strive to invent something like that. It's not possible to close off an entire branch of knowledge, least of all nowadays in our information age. Within this story, the serum is inevitable. The question is how its discovery will be handled. What he did wasn't saving humanity from the problems he envisaged--it was passing the buck on to whichever schmoe discovered the formula next time. Apathy, rather than altruism.

Decoy Ocelot

Loved the episode and loved the ethical speculation on this one, Chris and Chad! Don't get me wrong, I love a good panther-packed Howard story or a malevolent slow-burner from Bloch as much as the next listener, but its refreshing to slake our thirst with a nice highball of ethics and philosophy every once in a blue moon. Great job on the episode!

Forrest Rush

Very interesting story, but without a more in-depth portrayal of the Doctor's mental transformation as he de-ages, it comes across as a bit jumpy to me. In many ways his musings, which take up the first third of the story, come across as a protracted thought experiment that does not take into account other factors which would occur over time unrelated to the introduction of near-immortality or in relation/as a result of it. His obsession with physical deformity, as you point out, would be overcome through other advancements in science. Of course, my internal geek immediately went to cancer and Deadpool issues which opens up a whole other can of worms. As pointed out by Shoggoth and Wulf above, the issues of criminal reform pose conundrums of morality and practicality. Sure Shoggoth no crime can warrant an eternity in prison, but what is to be done with a serial killer? Oh well he murdered another bunch of folks so lock him up for another 300 years, etc. I wish Wright had included some notion of space colonization or undersea colonization as a release valve to the potential of overpopulation which is where my brain most often goes to in these types of stories. I suppose that is the utilitarian in me, but if any benefit could be achieved from millions/billions of super-long aged healthy people, pushing humanity beyond the bonds of its traditional home would seem worthy and logical. Of course, that could and probably would lead to some kind of Blade Runner replicant like abuse issues – “Oh you're nearly immortal? Well, we’d like you to go live on this barely functioning Martian colony. Maybe in a century or two there will be a town there for you. Have fun!” One really great story that explores some of these themes and a whole lot more (genderswap among many others) is titled Reboot. It’s not very old and I really thought it was from Neil Gaiman but the internet has proven me wrong. In it a doctor looking for a cure for cancer finds it, but the cure has the side effect of causing the patient to undergo (while asleep and over a 24 hour period) a complete transformation to the other gender. The story explores the many ramifications of this on society (not only the obvious sexual politic issues, ie the end of transphobia and related LGBT issues), but the others that would arise. While reading Wright’s tale I kept thinking of this other and how I wished Wright had gone a bit further. Still very enjoyable though.

Jon Hancock

Sidney Fowler Wright was quite an important author and editor in the field of scientific romances (he had at least one story adapted by Hollywood), but like many others he slipped into obscurity when that more speculative and philosophical genre was largely replaced by science fiction. John Wyndham was probably the last exponent; and of course he tackled similar issues in books such as The Trouble with Lichen. This is a story very much in the scientific romance vein, where any horrors tended to be tied to great questions rather than a twist or shock.

Sweatin' to the Great Oldies

I really enjoyed this one - and the discussion. Many thanks. I like that through this story we explore a bit of what might actually happen if someone were to find the key to immortality. Which is to say, a great deal of careful musings and ethical pretzel-making. Followed by inevitable catastrophe. Followed by our would-be good fellow turning into something of a sociopath. I figure anybody who ended up with immortality would end up jealously guarding that ability. They'd turn into a tyrant sooner or later - whatever their motivations, they'd be seen that way.

Matt Shank

Hey I got a shoutout this episode! I really liked this story, very different from what I was expecting. I thought you guys had a great discussion on the ramifications of immortality.

Allison Albright

Honestly it sounds like the inventor in this story put a lot more thought into the possible outcomes and consequences of his immortality serum than most tech firms put into their products. Great story and discussion!

Jeff C. Carter

The Post Mortal by Drew Magary explores what happens when a serum like this is released to the entire world. It escalated the consequences in a horrifying way. It is still one of the most disturbing books I’ve ever read.

Jeff C. Carter

...of course, I should still be made immortal. People who speculate about immortality often forget about the elegant balance created when everyone carries swords and there can only be one.

Joe Webb

Nice story, but I agree with Mr. Rush that without a better description of the doctor's mental state after the drug, it seems to wrap up quickly. Then again, I think that is an implication that some of the worst ideas the doctor had about where an immortality drug could take humanity might be in the cards. Your discussion of inventions, and how a really good idea is probably something a lot of people, especially rich people, don't want, reminded me of a film, "The Man in the White Suit", starring a young(ish) Alec Guinness. Basically he invents the perfect suit, and hilarity ensues (dry, sublte, English hilarity as I recall - I saw it on PBS as a kid). I just remember a mob ripping the cloths off of him, so no satisfactory answer to immortality's problems there. As to what could happen to a future with immortality, SF author Cordwainer Smith's stories set in his "Instrumentality of Mankind" series offers an suggestion. I'd recommend "Mother Hitton's Littul Kittons", which, despite the name, is rather horrific. Basically if you know the secret to immortality you will go to insane lengths to keep it secret, charge everyone in the universe a mint for it, and make sure, through any means possible, to remind everyone what rich immortals will do to you if you mess with them. Tame by modern standards, mostly, but a quick fun read.

Christine M

Another issue with immortality is bad, outdated ideas will stick around longer. At 46, I'm starting to really understand that I'm a time traveler from a more benighted time (rate of travel: one hour per hour), and a lot of people my age won't throw off the prejudices and misconceptions that got baked in during childhood. Just thinking of the standards around LGBTQ+ issues from my high school days makes me cringe! (Also - fun fact, my high school had a smoking lounge - for the students!)

Darth Pseudonym

It's one of my long-standing thoughts that immortality would be awful for humanity as a whole. Sexism, racism, homophobia, all these awful things degrade away over time simply because the people who have horrible beliefs die off. Maybe a youth serum would bring with it a resurgence of the neuroplasticity that would make it easier to accept new ideas and reduce the 'sunk cost' fallacy that so often makes people cling to long-held beliefs simply because it's easier to hold on than to accept that you might have been wrong for so long. But maybe it wouldn't, and we'd be stuck with My Racist Grandfather for all of eternity. It's not a fun idea that we would essentially freeze as a culture, unable to move forward for all the old minds holding us in place.

Matt Bustin

Excellent show, the discussion on the repercussions of the discovery of an immortality serum was excellent and sent my mind racing, has there ever been a movie covering this theme? There are plenty covering limited life expectancy and resources but I couldn’t think of anything off the top my head. I thought the scientist’s fears were well grounded, unless you could guarantee world wide supply at the exact same time it seems to me that such a drug would cause all kinds of disorder and crime. Then you have to think of the religious types or traditionalists who would reject taking the serum thus creating a two tier society, it doesn’t unlikely that religious terrorism against those taking the serum would occur, after all how can you be saved if you never die? And then there’s the issue if it was limited in quantity and restricted to the wealthy or certain societies. What about the procrastination issues? No-one would mow their lawn, why would you when you can just do it tomorrow?

Ravewolf

I recall reading a weirdly similar old story when I was a kid, only that one had a much more grim ending for both rat and man. Perhaps this scenario is a bit of a trope. Anyway, it's funny how the aging male characters considering their condition always imagine themselves attempting to hit on a roughly co-ed aged girl in her late teens or very early twenties, as if nobody even slightly older could even exist in their hypothetical vision of being shot down due to aging out of that range. Females are always viewed in their symbolic state of being very young. Perhaps this is partly because any age past 22 it so was getting past marriagable age back then, or one was at least expected to already be married by then. So, in a sense anyone even slightly older did not in fact exist as a viable potential maybe anyway. But then again, when I hear this hypo brought up by the aging male character in more recent stories today, they STILL usually use a female that very young as their example, so there must be more to it than that.

Alexandra Schoell

Really dug this one! It wasn't what I expected after seeing the title. Much like you guys I also assumed it would be about a monster rat or a swarm of them, despite that though I wasn't disappointed. It was interesting to see a story about immortality focusing on the moral implications rather than just declaring it an excellent idea right off the bat. Your discussion about how a world where people never died might work, specifically the part about it first being a thing for the wealthy reminded me of a show you guys might like. It's called "Altered Carbon " and is on Netflix, I think there are two seasons so far? I won't spoil the plot for you guys but a part you all may like is the portrayal of the wealthy in a world where you can live forever, amassing more and more wealth, far beyond anything you could ever possibly spend, even over several life times. Its really fascinating (and disturbing) to see these people with everything they could ever want become more and more depraved in their pursuits because its STILL not enough.

Eric - Speaker in Digressions

As others have mentioned, I also thought of Altered Carbon (which I know only in the TV version) while listening to this episode, especially as regards how even more awful the very wealthy would be as a result of living forever. Beyond that, elements of this story made me think of Maisie Williams' recurring immortal character on Doctor Who (especially memory problems) and, for the stagnation of society and resulting potential frustrations of the young, good old Vampire: the Masquerade. Bad enough for a relatively small number of Vampire Elders to play out their terrible games over the centuries, while the young clamor for an upward mobility that can come only through violence; now imagine that going global and affecting every human being.

Eric - Speaker in Digressions

Oh, and: I'm teaching a college English class right now that includes Frankenstein, and now I'm trying to figure out how I can squeeze this story into the syllabus for the exciting contrast of an immortality-seeking scientist who actually thinks about consequences.

Cacodaemoniacal

He thinks about the consequences, but in the end does what feels good. I hadn't thought of the age difference in his thought processes. I thought the author outlined a thought experiment and decided that in the end, we all wanna eat cake and ice cream all day long.

Ben Moule

'Smeth-ick' not smethwick

Ricardo Madrid

I feel like the ideas brought up in this story were explored in HPL's collaboration work "The Mound". HPL actually explores the dynamics of a civilization that discovers Immortality and how their civilization stagnates. The People of K'n-yan in their underground world are a miniature example of what our world would be like if we gained immortality. They reach the maximum population their domain can sustain and limit child birth. They are stuck in their opinions on foreignors from the previous Ice Age. Their boredom can only be sated by sadism and orgies. "The Mound" is not one of HPL's better stories but I feel like it explored these themes in a much more entertaining way than this story. Not to say this story is bad in any way, but throughout the hypothetical section I kept thinking how HPL did this so much better.