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Supernatural - 2x5 "Simon Said" Rewatch (Patreon)

Published:
2024-02-21 10:33:17
Edited:
2025-06-22 02:22:42
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Files

Simon Said - Rewatch.mp4

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Comments

Christopher simeon

There is a underlying dark parallel with Webber and Dean. He wanted to keep everyone but himself out of Andy life and Dean wanted to keep his family's secrets from Ellen. In a possessive so of way. At the end dean finally lets them in. But that possessive nature in dean will lead him to making that deal to save Sam in the finale which does create a killer in Sam just like it did in Andy. Even the shooting someone in the back moment is the same as when Sam does it. Yellow eyes made deals with the parents to enter the baby's nursery. But remember that all the psychic kids are just smokescreen so his real plan to prepare Sam is not revealed. He has to do similar things to others just so Sam doesn't stand out too much but that doesn't mean he did it to all of them. The inconsistent mother death or blood at 6 months is just because Azazel said 10 years to Mary and that as long as he is not interrupted he would not kill anyone. So some baby's were not 6 months getting the blood and some were not killed because Azazel was not interrupted.

Laurel

I'd be super interested in hearing all the headcanons you have! Maybe something for one of the wrapups just for fun? I always enjoy hearing what people's takes are outside of strictly canon.

Vel

Haven't watched the reaction to the episode yet, but just wanted to comment on a couple of things you mentioned before watching it relating to the other episodes. Interesting head canon about angels. However, it has been specifically said that angels had orders to not walk the earth until Dean was rescued from hell with Castiel's garrison. That said, Anna was on earth during those orders, but only as an observer. I really think they were still figuring it all out and some of the loose ends were never tied. It happens. My head canon was that John was told during his capture by Meg, but it's possible he never fully knew the truth. Didn't seem to me that Azazel even knew the entire story, so why would Meg or any other demon? When John was at Missouri's house he said he wasn't going to see the boys until he knew the truth, but then met up with them soon after. John was always after demons - and was reckless - that's what got Ellen's husband killed (it wasn't specified what hurt him IIRC). So it seemed to me they were leaning toward John purposely hunting demons for information while instructing Sam and Dean to hunt the monsters he came across (1st season in a nutshell). Kripke changed course within the show a couple of times, so I've always wondered how much he was going to use the hunter's network (that Gordon also got info from) that existed out of the roadhouse. Unfortunately, they kind of closed that gap when he didn't want to continue the psychic kids storyline. I like Everybody Loves a Clown because it's one of the two episodes that is a direct reference to where I live. But also it's the brother moments that stand out as well. Definitely a hybrid IMO, although it's more plot heavy to me because the plot revolves around what Dean was told by John in the first act. The insight we get by knowing what was said makes these episodes much better on second and third watch. This one has Dean questioning Sam about wanting to honor John's words or actions by continuing the work. In Bloodlust, also a hybrid IMO, Dean starts openly questioning the way John's black and white thinking may not have been the right way to see things (of course, with the Bloodlust theme we hear for the first time that is just epic). We don't know this the first time we see it, but these cracks in the armor are directly related to Dean's struggle with what John said to him. Finding reasons to not follow his orders. Masterful cohesion in the writers room during this season. Chefs kiss. ETA: Regarding Everyone Loves a Clown - The kids getting their parents killed by supernatural beings is a parallel to the undercurrents of Sam being blamed for Mary's death and the introduction of Dean's impending guilt for John's sacrifice.

Vel

I don't think it was all just a smokescreen at the time because of the way AHBL 1&2 were written. Or maybe it's that Azazel was not given the information as the angels were. Of course, during this time there was no plan to have angels or both of them be vessels, so it's really fascinating to see what remains consistent and what is not once that direction was taken..

BexFangirl

I honestly don't know rn if it can definitely be disproven... But the angels don't want Sam to die yet right? I mean at the end of season 4 it becomes pretty clear that the angels want Lucifer to rise, which is Sam's task and that they want the apocalypse to happen, right? So why would they tell John to kill Sam?

BexFangirl

I like your arguments for ep. 2 being hybrid. Personally I'm not that big a fan of episode 3. It's a good episode, but out of the three (2, 3 and 4) it's my least favourite. Idk what exactly it is, but I always find that the plot flow in the episode bores me a bit. I like ep 4 the best, then 2 and then 3 I think, a lot of it is defined by what scenes about them dealing with John's death I like best, but yeah...

MidnightSilver

I could see the idea behind the angels telling John that Sam might need to die - not because they actually want Sam dead yet, but because they want to foster the strife between Dean and Sam and push them both down their paths as vessels who will try to kill each other. But I can’t see any evidence either way to say if angels actually intervened directly before s4. Canon originally said angels weren’t allowed down to earth before Castiel came. Ruby said no one had ever seen an angel in ages. But that all got retconned later (with her and Jo working together etc) so no way to prove Angel interfere didn’t happen. But I definitely think John didn’t know about angels. Dean didn’t believe in angels at first (presumably John had the same attitude). So if John got info from an angel it was in disguise and how could we prove it either way 🤷🏻‍♂️ For this episode I do think Ansem was visited by Azazel as a baby. there just wasn’t a house fire. Theory is that if asazel isn’t disturbed he doesn’t burn up the mom on the ceiling, just gives the blood and leaves. And Andy was definitely Dean in this episode, his brother went darkside and he had to kill him. My headcanon is that Azazel used the situation of 2 brother and purposely fostered strife between them as an example to sam and dean. Foreshadowing and planting seeds. Dean is stopping Sam going darkside (like so many of the other psychics kids) so not only would Azazel want to encourage the boys to be enemies but he would want to remove Sam’s moral support. Great reactions Shelley, thanks! 😄 am really enjoying these and getting to chat more this time. I can’t wait till we check back in with Croatoan, love that episode 😄

BexFangirl

The children were all visited, Ansem/Webber as well. Azazel gave them all demon blood. The only difference is that he didn't get interrupted. The deal never included any of the women to die. The deal they made was that Azazel gets excess to the house (therefore the kids) and if he doesn't get interrupted nobody gets hurt. But all the kids with house fires the mom came into the room, so Azazel killed her and started the house fire.

BunkerGirl

Quick comment based on your intro before I watch your whole reaction. Regarding your head canon about an angel telling John they may have to kill Sam… I really don’t think so, mainly because the angels wanted the apocalypse to happen, so they needed Sam alive. I really think it was demons just dropping hints of Sam being important to them, trying to simply sow doubts and separate Sam from his support (especially Dean). Because remember, in The End, their separation is what causes Sam to say yes to Lucifer. And Mary definitely did not believe angels were real as evidenced in both flashback episodes and when she returns, and when John visited them in the 300th episode he also didn’t know they were real. So if it WAS in fact an angel in disguise telling him this… they were taking a huge gamble that John WOULDN'T actually listen and really go through with killing Sam--I mean, he believed it enough to place that burden on Dean. I think Azazel was really rooting for Sam to be the winner of the special kids battle, and nudging for that outcome…but at least he had backups in place if he wasn’t… whereas the angels firmly believed it HAD to be Sam (and Dean) in the apocalypse fight, since Michael (while possessing john) and Gabriel (in Changing Channels) both told Dean that ever since the lights went on in heaven, they knew it was always going to be sam and dean. Re eps you watched on your own, I think Everybody loves a Clown was just dumb. I almost always skip on rewatches. I looooved Bloodlust. And I loved seeing Ty Olsen in there as well.🙂 re Children shouldn’t Play… eh episode imho. But I think it was put in to start showing us the whole things dead should stay dead, that we see repeated over and over with Sam and Dean, and how their choices to always save each other results in huge consequences every single time.

BunkerGirl

Comment after watching, Azazel did visit all the special children to bleed in their mouths at 6 months. Remember when Mary made the deal, he told her he just needs permission to enter, and as long as he’s not disturbed that no one will get hurt. So the children with no house fires, the moms just didn’t disturb him. I think Sam brought up about Andy being a killer because at this point Sam is very afraid of his powers and where they could lead… and since any “normal” human can become a killer under the right circumstances, he is very afraid that add that to his special powers…he thinks he could become a true “freak” and “monster” and maybe not be able to stop it. And I totally agree about how Dean often tries to hide parts of who he is.💙💚 And that makes me sad. In his mind, REO rock ballads wouldn’t be considered “manly” enough, so hide it. Thanks John (and others) for instilling all that hetero manly BS. 🤬😤

Jay

Oh that's an interesting idea that the other psychic kids were a smokescreen - I've always been confused by them and assumed it was a result of a change of mind about where the plot was leading somewhere between s2 and s4. You're absolutely right about Azazel being interrupted being key to why mothers were killed or not.

Jay

On the intro to your rewatch, I hate Sam pressuring Dean to 'talk about' how he feels in this season and on through the next few seasons and how the common feeling in fandom that Sam is open and Dean is repressing his feelings! It seems a losing battle to say that everyone deals differently with grief (or spending 40 years in hell for that matter), and we see Dean open up to other people, just as he does to Gordon at first. But he's been protecting Sam his whole life, how is he supposed to unpack his complex feelings about his grief and guilt and being left with the instruction to kill his kid bro? Julie Benz (Layla in 1.12 Faith) was the first Buffy character! It's interesting that Dean refers to being 16 in that anecdote to Gordon – this is the age he is in Bad Boys, the flashback ep in which John left him in a boys' home for stealing. Wonder if that was before or after he decided his identity was being a hunter? In the episode, I too love Andy and wish he could have had more screen time and not be briskly killed off. Like Christopher says above, all the special children were visited, it's just that not all their mothers interrupted Azazel so they didn't have to be killed. It seems clear in canon that the powers come entirely from Azazel's blood - clearly it does something mystical to small babies - and I think Sam has been restraining himself from exploring his powers at this point because he's fearful and ashamed of them. But I think when Ruby later says he 'didn't need the feather to fly', she means the baby dose was enough to set him up to be super-powerful – just as we see Jake at the end of this season coming fully into his powers by giving in to them. In s4, Sam needs to feed on more demon blood to overcome the inner block he's set up for himself at this point? Maybe something to think about when we get there.

Hasnaa

Yes dean can sing beautifully, deanmon was just singing badly on purpose to annoy people coz he's a dick

Kit

YES I SO AGREE! As someone who internally processes my feelings, it so so so so so bugs me that Sam constantly begs Dean to open up to him and talk about something that often is still very fresh. The annoying this is that Dean always eventually turns to Sam, he just needs time to process first but Sam doesn’t give him that time! Like in s4 Sam is constantly telling Dean to talk to him about hell then eventually Dean does in 4.10, and by the next episode Sam is having a go at Dean for not constantly talking about it since. (Then in 4.14 Sam tells Dean he’s constantly whining about hell??? Like what was that about) It personally annoys me because I process exactly like Dean lol. I need my time to think to myself then will maybe tell someone. While I wish Sam understood that dean doesn’t process this way, Sam does so it’s kinda understandable why he thinks that would help Dean.

Kit

Came here to check someone had cleared up that all the children were visited but only some involved the mothers deaths so thanks for saving me a comment lol

Kit

completely agree and following this idea I think it would’ve been so interesting for them to have an ep where the house fire still happened but the father died instead

BunkerGirl

Totally agree with everything you said here. I think Dean does often repress talking about his feelings to most people. Not out of not wanting to, but for soooo long he had to be the strong protective big brother... and probably learned very young to wear that mask for Sam's sake. After long enough, that mask becomes his protective armor. That is a huge part of the bond he and Cas shared (whether one thinks it is romantic or not.) They could both open up to each other about their fears and doubts and insecurities. (like Cas did when they were sitting on the benches at the playground, and Cas says to Dean "Can I tell you something if you promise not to tell?" And he goes on to explain that he has doubts. They open up to each other in ways that neither was able to do before they met each other.

Christopher simeon

Well the top angels knew the real plan while angels like cas were in the dark until 4x20.

AdoptDontShopPets

Good callout on Andy/Ansem being a foreshadowing of Dean/Sam kill the brother plot point. We just didn’t know it until the big reveal of what John whispered!

AdoptDontShopPets

Do we know Mary didn’t believe in angels? We saw in 5x13 that she had bought an angel figurine for Dean’s nursery and always told him that “Angels are watching over you.”

AdoptDontShopPets

I also enjoy Bloodlust. I was surprised it didn’t rank higher in the poll.

BunkerGirl

True. But I’m basing it off of her saying to Dean “There’s no such thing.” when he tells her that an angel is after her. (Also in 15x13) Then Michael tells Dean he is going to wipe her and John’s memory of the whole visit. And when Amara brings Mary back, she said it again. But I do think somewhere deep inside even unconsciously she had a sense enough to wonder after what happened.

Michele

I do think that Sam's powers aren't as advanced as the other special "kids" because he doesn't want them and so is basically inhibiting them. I think he's afraid. He already thinks that they're part of something that will see him turning evil. Which is basically what John was hinting at when he told Dean what he did. I also think that giving in to their powers and "flipping the switch" affects the special kids and they turn bad. It infects them and lowers their inhibitions against using their powers to hurt others. Makes them ripe for use by the demons. Ansem WAS visited by Azazel. Why do you think he wasn't? Andy and Ansem had different adoptive mothers. Andy's mom was killed but Ansem's wasn't. That doesn't mean that Ansem wasn't visited. Just that the mom didn't interrup Azazel when he was visiting. Jensen has said that Dean was a bad singer and that he wanted it to be that way. That decision likely happened after this episode though. But, I think we find out that he can sing. In season 15. Lucifer didn't kill Sam. I assume you're referring to the season 5 finale. Lucifer/Sam beat the heck out of Dean, but Dean didn't die. Cas healed him after he came back, though.

BexFangirl

Do we know that he was in the dark? I mean we know he got taken back 'upstairs' to bring him back in line (after s8 it's highly likely that some mind resetting was used), but we don't know what happened, right? It was never said that he got the information then, if I remember correctly.

AdoptDontShopPets

I clearly don’t pay enough attention to what Mary says 🤣

AdoptDontShopPets

I agree, that Jensen retconned that Dean couldn’t sing because he said it was funnier. I like fans’ explanation that Dean sings bad when he is trying to make Sam feel better.

Christopher simeon

It would be weird for him to tell Dean to stop Sam from using his powers if that is what was supposed to happen. It seems he was sent to heaven in 4x20 because he was about to tell him about it probably because that is when he found out.

BunkerGirl

I have a completely unrelated SPN question for anyone to answer. I'm posting it here in hopes it gets seen. Lol I'm rewatching Shelley's reactions to s14 and in EP 2 we see Michael looking in a mirror facing Dean, and Dean does tell him to get out. Michael says no, I own you and punches the mirror. Why didn't he HAVE to leave when Dean said that? I mean, we saw that when Gadreel possessed Sam, and Crowley went in and told him what was happening, Sam told Gadreel in his mind to get out, and Gadreel had to. Why didn't Michael have to leave? (I do understand that later Dean makes the decision to imprison Michael in his mind, I always took it that he did that so he couldn't possess someone else and just continue on his quest for world domination. But why didn't a direct order to get out work on Michael? Was it ever explained?)

BunkerGirl

I understand they are stronger than regular angels, but has it been said in the show that you can’t expel them on command? Even when cas let Lucifer in, when Sam told him to “eject him now”, cas said he couldn’t yet until they saved Dean. Sam had no desire to eject Lucifer, so I don’t know that we can compare that one. From every example the show has shown us, as long as the host surfaces enough to realize they’re being possessed, they can eject them. That’s why this instance made no sense to me.

BunkerGirl

Maybe one of those threads we aren't supposed to pull.... lol

BunkerGirl

btw you could also very well be correct on how it works. thank you for answering and for sharing your thoughts and ideas! <3

AdoptDontShopPets

I considered it a retcon. Otherwise, maybe Michael, as the strongest archangel, cannot be ejected or maybe it’s all archangels 🤷🏻‍♀️

Josh Poulton

Damn lol she's rewatching all of them

Amye Sabin

I think they were all six months at the time of 'infection'. We just can't be 100% sure because those whose parent wasn't killed (ie those who didn't interrupt Azazel), we don't know exactly when it happened. But if Max and Andy's mothers died when they were six months, because Azazel was infecting them, it's pretty much assured that the others were six months too.

Amye Sabin

I disagree. Jensen has said that he purposefuly made Dean a bad singer, because he didn't want people to know how good he (Jensen) was. He was still very shy about performing. He sings 'Wanted Dead or Alive' terribly. He sings REO very very mediocre, including in S7 ('All Out of Love'). And of course he's horrific as Deanmon.

Hasnaa

@Amye Sabin I was talking about in universe dean not the actor's reasoning/motivations behind the scene, in this episode dean sings beautifully IMO not mediocre, definitely not like demon dean, he sings beautifully in last call, a good singer can fake singing badly but a bad singer can't fake singing well hence dean actually can sing and has a beautiful voice but sometimes chooses not to show it or sing badly on purpose to annoy people, maybe dean faked singing badly because (just like Jensen) he didn't want people to know that he can sing coz he was shy about it too and maybe he didn't want to be the "theater kid" as he kept calling sam, even though he is, or maybe because whenever he sings in his car Sam scolds him like here when he tells him "you're kidding, right!" in sam's defense he could be saying that because dean just made fun of Jo for playing REO but now he's singing it himself although I am not sure if Sam heard dean & Jo's conversation or if he's just being the annoyed buzzkill lil bro like he usually does, in last call we see that dean needed a lil push from Lee to get him on stage and he was nervous so he definitely is shy about singing too, usually when the show gives us two things that seem contradictory on first glance like dean singing well on more than one instance in the canon of the show but also singing less well or even badly in other instances also in the canon of the show then we have to come up with an in-world explanation to reconcile both facts, few times that's impossible because it's just something that the writers retconned and can't be reconciled with previous facts but in this specific case it's very easy to come up with an in-world explanation like I did here

rose mnor

Hi BunkerGirl, are you still looking for others' opinions on this possession thing? I can't see a few comments here so they must be coming from people I had blocked. So if you are, I posted my takeaways in the reply to this post (mine), if not I can just delete both this comment and the subsequent one.

rose mnor

I don't recall in canon that humans can eject angels from their bodies just by saying they revoke their consent - unless they can overpower or fight them like Sam ejecting Gadreel in Road Trip. Once consent is given, it is permanent and can be re-taken after release, IMO, unless the vessel dies like Sam. And, further to your second comment under the original ask, IMO I think it was due to his success of ejecting Gadreel that Sam told Cas to eject Lucifer, not that Cas CAN eject Lucifer. Based of the top of my head, those who had been possessed and released by the angels that possessed them were: -Sam by Lucifer (technically not released - Sam sorta "died") -Jimmy by Castiel -Caroline by Hannah -Sam by Gadreel -Donnie Finnerman by Raphael -unnamed Gadreel's og vessel by Gadreel So based on the above, only Sam managed to do so under special circumstances. Jimmy is aware of Cas's shenanigans while inhabiting his body (he likened the experience to being tied to a comet) and even he cannot eject Cas after regretting the experience. Caroline wanted to return to her husband, but Hannah only released her after she could not reconcile Caroline's feelings within her. Sam managed to eject Gadreel and canonically it was because the latter was injured in the fall and was weakened by it:- (From 9.01 I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here): Ezekiel: And if he does not? Without his acceptance, Sam can eject me at any time, especially with me so weak. And if Sam does eject me, he will die.