Combat Sports and the Power of Story w/ Karen Attiah (Uncut + Transcript) (Patreon)

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Award-winning journalist and writer Karen Attiah joins Sam to explore combat sports and the power of storytelling.

Transcript

[Note: Transcripts are autogenerated and may contain errors.]

This is Southpaw. I'm your host, Sam. Today, I have a very, very, very, very special guest. Karen, can you introduce yourself and give us a bit of your background?

Sure. My name is Karen Attiah. By profession, I am a columnist for The Washington Post. I've been a journalist, gosh, now for about 12 years, 10 of them with The Post. And I am also a an avid Muay Thai enthusiast, a former boxer as well. So martial arts, fighting, kind of physical culture,

strength training has been a part of my life ever since, gosh, I was in high school, college. So yeah, I guess I'm kind of known for my punchy, so to speak, columns on race, international affairs, human rights, um gender and then yeah by night people are I guess getting to know me for my own

uh Muay Thai kind of warrior mode I suppose and can you give us your positionality as far as where you grew up where your family is from

Sure. So I grew up in Dallas, Texas. My father is Ganyan, specifically Ashanti. And my mother is Nigerian, half Yoruba, actually. But she also ended up in Ghana. Her family, my grandmother's side of the family, they were refugees from the horrific Biafra War in the late 2000s. in Nigeria, so they were refugees to Ghana.

And my parents met in Ghana in school and came over to the U.S. and made their way to Texas, where I grew up and was there until the end of high school. And I decided to I got to get out. And so I went to school in the Midwest at Northwestern and that's where I found, I think,

I guess that's where I really, really kind of in my own quest to understand my own heritage, particularly as an African person. growing up in the States. And my parents obviously gave me and my siblings, obviously the, frankly, most whitest of white first names as a Karen. And just really, you know, just really wanted us to assimilate.

And I felt like I didn't, I got hints of being from Ghana and from West Africa and some of our food and some of our cultural parties, but I felt like I really didn't understand my roots. And I think from an early age, I also deeply understood that Africa and writ large black people around the world

were poorly represented in the media. if at all, right? And so when I got to college, that's when I really, like so many kids, I think, really got a chance to really try to deeply explore not only my identity, but this just sort of, I guess that's where I started to see myself, yes, as an Afghanist,

as a Texan, but as a global citizen. And just took a lot of courses on kind of colonization, globalization, on communication. And I think that so I both got my kind of intellectual foundations there and learning about sort of diaspora politics. And that's when I started at the Northwestern Boxing Club. So yeah.

So that was a really pivotal time for me and I think set the stage for what I've continued to do now, which is the same thing, kind of trying to correct narratives, fight, erasures, center... you know, as Black people, diasporans, and just really, you know, trying to, yeah, I'd hope, I guess, right at a cosmic level,

act as some small little corrective force, you know, to the mistruths and the deliberate kind of misrepresentation of people like me and where I come from. So that's carried me out of the way to the Washington Post somehow.

So how does writing fit into all this? When did that start for you?

I think I'd always... Well, first of all, I was really bad at math. Or led to believe that, I'll say that. I think the way my brain actually... works is that I'm still just a very visual kind of kinetic person. And for whatever reason, straight math doesn't feel kinetic to me, but physics and geometry do.

So I was actually really good at like physics and those mathematical equations, but not like, anyway, point is being from an family. They were like, all right, math and science is clearly not for you. You're going to be a lawyer. So like, and push me towards like, just really, you know, I think it's just this reinforcement, right?

When, when the adults in your lives and in your life, like constantly reinforce certain perhaps things. Like I just started writing and the adults were like, wow, she's good at this. And so I was like, okay, I should keep doing that. I should keep getting better. And for me, it's not just about writing. I enjoy stories.

I enjoy myths. I enjoy archetypes. I enjoy the... I think stories are the most powerful force in our world, right? Like they can make you want to care about somebody you've never met. They can make you want to identify with creatures and beings that don't even exist.

And on the flip side, stories can make you want to kill someone that you've never met, you know? So I think stories are perhaps... you know, the most powerful carrier of energy that we have, like the stories we tell about ourselves, the stories we tell about our loved ones, the stories we tell about history, all of it.

Yeah. So, um, I think that, When I was younger, I thought stories were easy. I don't know how to put it. I think when you're a kid, I loved Greek myths. I watched hero tales and you'd go to school and you're encouraged to make up your own stories and make up your own characters and things like that.

And I feel like, yeah, that felt easy and fun. And then the older I get, the more that I realize... stories and pushing for certain narratives are an excruciating fight. And I think I realized, right, that stories are reinforced by, they lay the foundation for power, right? Good and bad.

Stories are reinforced by hundreds of millions of dollars poured into, whether it's media, whether it's Hollywood, whether it's upholding certain types of narratives, whether it's, you know, monuments carrying stories, objects in museums carrying stories. It is backed by power and violence in many ways of what it takes to uphold certain stories, right? So I guess

I think anyone who's in that, the story business has to be a fighter. You have to be. And I think, um, and I'm sure we can get into this later, you know, in terms of learning how to lose and learning how to take rejection, learning how to, how to be kicked down or, or,

or to pivot literally in another way, try different approach approaches. Um, I take lessons from both writing and writing. And I feel they're mutually reinforcing for me as a person.

Something that's come up a lot in these interviews with people who enjoy or practice martial arts is power. Yeah. And so you've kind of brought in a new wrinkle to this conversation about power, which is about stories. That stories have power. They could have good power. They could have bad power. But regardless, that's what stories are.

They are powerful vehicles. They carry with them power. And I don't think we often think about that.

Absolutely. I mean, without stories, we wouldn't have religion, right? And without religion, we wouldn't have meaning in many ways for a lot of societies. I still believe humans are still deeply... deeply seeking meaning and deeply seeking awe and deeply seeking connection and flow and with nature and with themselves.

I just think particularly in the West, for sure, like that has been that has been lost, right? And I think as a journalist, sometimes what I grapple with is we can be, we are in a position historically of incredible power at the same time as a Black woman journalist, I'm also very, very conscious of, in some ways,

the limits of my power in a white male-dominated sphere, the limits of power when it comes to questioning the status quo, particularly in an imperialist world. war machine country, such as the United States. And I'm reminded of that given the fact that I live in Washington, D.C., which I either call it the Imperial Corps or the arena.

When I talk to my friends about the fact that I just moved back and they're like, wow, you just moved back and Trump is in power. I'm like, yep, I'm back in the ring, man. So it's something I think about power constantly and what it means to sort of both be powerful to an extent and powerless

and being in proximity to both. I've been in rooms with... billionaires, prime ministers, rebel leaders, presidents, celebrities. And I've been in rooms with people who are facing the most crushing of life circumstances, displaced people from war. You know, just, so I think it's that, it's that range of being with the

and a privilege to be with the breadth of humanity in a way through my job that keeps me coming back, even though it can be an excruciating fight to try to, again, correct records on those who are marginalized, to try to center the marginalized. That will forever be a fight, but it's worth it.

And on top of being a journalist and writer, You've had another role, which is that of an editor. And that's something I think a lot of listeners, myself included, might be more curious about because we kind of have an idea of what a writer and journalist does, but maybe we don't know what an editor does.

So can you tell us about the role of an editor?

Sure. So prior to becoming a columnist, I was an editor and specifically I was the editor of the post-global opinion section. So I work in the editorial department, which means... the opinion section means I get to have an opinion. I don't have to, I don't have to,

and the writers that I work with don't have to play the whole both sides game. We can have clear points of view. So I just want to make that clear that like I'm an opinion person and have been for the trajectory of my career at the Washington Post. So that being said, As an editor,

my job was to basically, you know, scout out voices who could, particularly from around the world, who could add their stories about their country specifically to the page. And again, being in Washington and I, before I was a journalist, I was in the international affairs space. So I thought that I was going to, you know, like...

work for the World Bank or USAID. I thought, again, I wanted to help the world. And I thought this concept of being in development, I guess, was the way to do it. But then I got quickly burnt out and disillusioned by that. And specifically because... At the grad school I was at,

I felt like we were being trained to listen to fancy policy advisors sitting in Washington and not to the voices of people who were actually on the ground in the countries that the policies were being made about, right? So all that to say, I carried that into kind of why I became a journalist. And then furthermore,

as an editor, sitting in a place like Washington, D.C., where there definitely is, I call it the interpreter class, which is the think tankers. the um you know i i do find it as a bit of a colonial construct right like that you

have these you have the the center the metropole uh you know in in the west sort of sending out analysts to the field right to like sort of interpret things and then bring them back to the masters back in washington to figure out what to do with the ethics right like

So I'd rather have the ethnics speak for themselves in as much as best as they can, you know, in English or translation. So yeah, my job was really to try to elevate like global voices and... I'm particularly from the Middle East and Africa, but I work with writers from India, from Kenya, from South Africa, from New Zealand,

literally all over the world. And I think as an editor... my job is to kind of protect somebody's voice, like stay out of the way, help them get, as we say, to get a piece camera ready, right? And I think part of my job was to, and I personally,

my style of working with writers is I just like to deeply get to know them, the ones that I work with regularly. So I get a sense of how they think and what they like. And it's a very intimate relationship, I think.

And my job is to help them get their best voice out there and feel hopefully like what they read back, they feel like it's them, it's not me. And my job is to make sure as many people read them and get to know them as possible. Uh, so I guess in that sense, it's a very, um,

and you have to, you know, I learned a lot from, uh, from, uh, the writers about, about their country. So in a lot of ways, I think the challenge of it all is, um, you know, just for your writers, what's the Erykah Badu, you know, writers are like our creatives basically. And they're sensitive about,

they're sensitive about their shit, you know, everybody needs an editor, you know, editors need editors, presidents get edited. And so, but it really is about, it took me, you know, maybe even several years just to develop that rapport and that trust.

trust.

Yeah. It's a deeply, I know what it's like to, uh, to have an editor that you feel almost like completely in sync with. And I know what it's like to have an editor or editors who have no idea what you're trying to do. And they try to write themselves on top of you. Right.

And having to fight that. And so I just, I have a very clear vision of as an editor and a very clear vision of the types of voices that I wanted, but also my job is just, I think editors were, I mean, yes, there's a certain level of gatekeeping and power, I suppose,

but I think very at the core of it, it's how do we help each other shine? Yeah.

So you have a lot on your plate. You do a lot of work, fulfilling work, like you said, things worth fighting for. Yet you also pursue physical activities on top of that. What draws you to activities that are beyond the pen and paper and more about the flesh and bone?

It's interesting. I mean, I do think there's a part of my personality that, again, I kind of likes again being a journalist in many ways is a confrontational act or like way to be I'm confronting people with questions like sources with questions I'm confronting the audience with my perspective so in some ways if I had to sit

and think about it now it kind of makes sense that like I'm drawn to like a confrontational sports. I mean, I guess all sports are confrontation. I mean, it's all competition, right? But I think... I mean, you know, to be, I grew up watching, I grew up watching Power Rangers.

I grew up watching, like I grew up playing video games. I grew up watching WCW wrestling, I guess. Um, and I mean, I grew up in Texas, man. So like just sort of a bit rough and tumble. Um, my brother, uh, we used to play street fighter like all the time. And, um, so I think foundationally, uh,

combat or simulating combat just gave me a lot of pleasure. Like I just liked it. Um, as opposed to, you know, maybe other girls in my class, like, and I'm not trying to be like, Oh, I'm a cool girl. No, it's just, that's just what I liked. Um, and so, uh,

I played basketball and volleyball in high school, but I liked basketball more than Maybe because I got to tussle. I averaged the most fouls per player on my team. So I was really like hacking away at people. And so although I had to in my defense, my 15 year old defense, they weren't like holding defense.

So I had to protect the basket. Yeah. by any means necessary. But I think I realized that I kind of liked that contact. And who knows, maybe there's something deeper psychological about like my need for touch. But I think like in some ways, because of,

I grew, I grew up and then went to such a sort of an intellectual heady school. Um, there's something about the almost primal nature of boxing specifically and now kind of really tie that felt more real in some ways than like these theories and concepts and things on a page. And, uh, So I think for me,

it just, it helps also me, it also helps me work my brain just in a different way. And I find that, I don't know, I think I like that it was hard and scary, I think. And I think, I don't know, I mean, I think maybe, you know, as I... It's a matter of my therapist,

but like learning how to like, you know, get into ease and softness and that there's strength in that too. But for whatever reason, I find specifically boxing and Muay Thai to be absolutely beautiful. And I think like when I see a fighter move in their element, specifically with those types of, with those types of fighting arts.

And maybe I kind of like it because I find it beautiful, even though the world tends to think a certain way that boxing is so terrible and brutal and violent and Muay Thai is brutal. And I'm like, yes, but ant. Yeah. you know, uh, there's, there's so much beauty and grace. Um, I, I,

I love thinking about how, you know, Bruce Lee, like such a master martial artist, right. It was also a salsa dancer. Um, when you watch like some of the greats, like, I don't know, I'm thinking of like maybe Lomachenko or something like just the way that these specifically men, I think move, it makes them kind of

I mean, not that I don't think they are, but it's beautiful to me, like men being beautiful in the ring. So yeah, but not a lot of people get it unless you get it. And so maybe that's like, if I had to think about it,

like maybe that's sort of like a physical manifestation of kind of what I try to do in life is like, you know, groups of people or things that people from the outside think are, subhuman or something or, uh, marginalized or are, are brutal maybe. And I'm like, that's not true. Um, it's, there's, there's a lot of, of,

of beauty and spirituality and, and, and what it takes for, um, a fighter to get into that ring, um, and to train. So, um, Yeah, I guess I like it's a it's a balance thing for me, perhaps. And it gives me a reason to put my phone down.

It always feels good to hit pads after I'm reading about whatever bullshit of the news, you know, bullshit day. Like it just I never regret going to training.

So why didn't you just stick with boxing? What made you move on to Muay Thai?

Um, so yeah, when I was boxing, so I was, I was, when I was in grad school at Columbia, I started, um, training out of, um, it was actually John's boxing gym in the Bronx at the time. And I was really like, I really wanted to go to the Golden Gloves.

Like I was like, I don't, I don't know why I, I just, um, And I fell into that jam and we got to go to some Golden Gloves competitions. I think I still remember Nisa Rodriguez. I think she's still boxing, actually. But seeing her box and that she'd won all these Golden Gloves tournaments.

And I was just like, dang, I want to be like her. I think I just had these dreams of being an amateur fighter. And so it just happened that I had access to boxing. and, um, and had a trainer. The thing that stopped me was, um, I had to, to move.

I decided to move to the Caribbean to pursue my, uh, reporting career and, uh, became a freelancer for the Associated Press there. So that was the only reason why I stopped was because I moved. And so when I'm, when I came back to the States in 2013, I came back to DC and I, uh,

My sister suggested Muay Thai. She's like, why don't you try Muay Thai if you like boxing so much? And I was like, I don't know about all that kicking. That's an extra set of limbs I got to worry about. But I was like, all right, I'll try it. And I tried it and... I loved it.

I think we had to run a mile. It was a hard first introduction. But for whatever reason, just the amount of power, the amount of cardio, I was wiped out. But I was like, this is amazing. And when I started looking up Muay Thai Fighters, and started watching their fight, started even watching, like, the Y crew dance.

Especially, I think, for me, again, like, the spirituality around Muay Thai. It just, like, I was like, this is me. This is who I want to be in a weird way. Like, fighting, but also with a deep sort of... history and spiritual intention, at least what it was meant to be, right?

Obviously, there's a lot to talk about, about perhaps what Reach Eye has become today. But the essence of that, I thought, was gorgeous. And I was like, I have more weapons at my disposal. Okay, kicking. Okay, I got elbows, sweet. Knees, awesome. I literally can learn how to be absolutely...

So, yeah, I started that in 20, I guess, maybe around 2015, 2016. Did a couple of exhibition fights in D.C. And, yeah, my colleagues, like, basically, you know, you can see me carrying all my Muay Thai shin gear to the office, like shin pad gear, shins and boxing gloves.

And I guess, like, people just kind of started to take notice of, Um, but again, still, you know, like no major tournaments or fights, but I, at the time I just was like, I will train for however long I will spar. I will fight anybody. Like I was, I was just, I was just hungry, man.

I was just like, I really, I really want this experience. I was this desire, like to me, I see it as another form of self-expression. And I see this kind of just like, again, you know, just like writing and people always ask, well, how do you develop your voice? And I'm like, Sam's doing a lot of repetition.

It's a craft. I'm also thinking, I'm like, how can my personal Muay Thai experience get better? Who am I as an artist here? Artist or fighter? I don't think you have to be a fighter. I still think one can be a brilliant martial artist without competing.

I think I'm just driven in both arenas by this deep level of curiosity about who am I in that ring? Who am I when I'm preparing for a fight or a tournament like what you know what can i discover here um and how can

i and i feel like it's such a good way to get to know people very quickly which i have to do in my line of work as well um i need to like figure out who this person is and sometimes 20 minutes

um so that i can extract something from them right and i think to an extent when you're stepping into the ring with um not even just or just a training partner an opponent you get to know them right um so i like that i find it very i guess i just

find it very intimate well you get to know yourself and the other person in practice not in theory

Yeah. You know, and, and like, I just, I just remember, you know, um, sparring with, with more experienced fighters and getting my ass handed to me and, uh, you know, them doing it very politely, but then afterwards taking me back and say, Hey, I could tell you're angry. I'm like, what do you mean?

Like, no, I don't know because your breathing changed. Like I saw it in your face. Um, And I'm like, wow, this is somebody who could probably read me better than my ex-boyfriends. It's such an interesting kind of concept of practicing awareness in a heightened state. Yeah.

Yeah, it's not like people take lots of drugs to get to heightened states. And I mean, maybe some of these people should try stepping in a ring. It's a form, I think, of transcendence almost, frankly.

Yes, yes.

When you're in that flow state, yeah.

So you told me that your recent trip to Ghana really brought writing and fighting together for you. Can you unpack that for us?

Yeah, so I've been going into Ghana since I was a kid. And I lived there for about a year. And yeah, I just got back. I just got back last week from another trip. And Ghana is a really interesting place in sort of global Black history.

It's long positioned itself as the sort of home for Black, for Pan-Africanism, excuse me. the home of Kali and Krumah is Ghana's first nation to gain independence from Britain and sub-Saharan Africa. So there's a lot of, you know, pride there in terms of this country being not only, you know,

fighting off in some ways the British, throwing off the shackles of colonialism. But specifically with the Ashanti culture, we have, you know, figures like Ya Asantewa, the Ashanti queen, who basically helped defend the Ashanti tribe against the British until she was captured and sent into exile to Seychelles in the lake.

1800s, but she's often depicted with having a gun, right? And the Ashanti's are just known for empire as well. So for me, I mean, some of the projects I've been working on have to do with reclaiming that sort of, you know, those, those swords, those, those, I'm curious about the Ashanti, you know, martial arts. Like I'm,

I'm just curious about the soul of the people, not just being in its, in their objects, but being in how they fight. Right. Um, of course, until, you know, the West and their technology came around, but, um, so it was that, sort of intellectual, I guess, pursuit of it. And then to lay on top of that,

I'm working on, you know, a book about my colleague, Jamal Khashoggi, a writer of mine who was murdered in 2018. And the fight to get that work out there and publish has been excruciating and so many ups and downs. And I, I think, you know, I go back to, I mean,

it's a long story and probably put the book in and of itself, but I think one of the reasons why I, really dove into Muay Thai during the pandemic was in response to the powerlessness I felt after Jamal was murdered. And I went to the U.S. Muay Thai Open in 2021 and I

I lost, and I did not take that well at all, at all. I spiraled into depression, and that affected, and I think I was not able to really write very well at all after that. including with the book. And so, you know, and I stopped doing retype for a while.

So fast forward to today, to Ghana, and it was the first time which is weird to say, but it was the first time that I really was embraced by a community of authors specifically and like Ghanaian, Nigerian authors who kind of took me in for a hug and said, your book is worth it. You're like, trust us.

We've been through so many losses, so many, you know, kind of rejections and You're going up against powerful people. We're in your corner. And just don't give up. And again, it sounds super cliche, I think, to an extent. I've been privileged working as a columnist. Yeah, the post is going to publish whatever I do.

I don't have to... fight as much. The publishing world is a whole different arena. Yeah. And I realized, I just really, really, really realized, particularly again, as a, as a black woman trying to tell a story of a Saudi journalist who also is going up against really powerful forces that wanted to disappear him.

I think I just, it really dawned on me like, wow. Okay. this might be the fight of my lifetime, this book itself and this sort of work. And I guess I just took some time in Ghana to really go into waterfalls, go into nature, touch some thousand-year-old baobab trees basically in Shia Hills and really ground

myself because I know it's going to be a fight, but I know how to fight better now. I know how to fight maybe more relaxed now, both in my writing and in actual fighting. So, so yeah, that trip really kind of, again, also inspired me to like, like kind of listen to my own intuition and be like,

I got to sign up. for martial arts again, like I, for me, I don't feel, well, it's just like, I don't, there's something about when I'm not training movie tie, I don't feel like myself when I'm not writing, I don't feel like myself. Um, and I, I don't, I, I'm not, I'm not okay. And I think,

I think particularly in this era that we're in and as we're entering another Trump presidency and particularly I think for progressives, um, who feel like, you know, we are on the back foot. It just, it just, again, going back to the whole reason why I started doing what I'm doing back to my

father's land really kind of just, I think gave me a lot of strength and energy to keep going.

I feel like for a lot of us, not the specifics, but that feeling you have of we're not really ourselves unless we do our training or like you, right? Do your writing. I feel like for many of us who are into martial arts, not everybody, but like I feel this way that I am not just a noun.

I'm also a verb. Maybe not everybody feels like they're a verb, right? I've been talking a lot about actions. Like something Femi and I have been talking a lot about lately is like doing a thing rather than just being a thing. And for me,

it's so clear that maybe it's not that he got that because he's a martial artist, but because he is like that, he's also attracted to martial arts because it is about actions. It is about how you engage with your environment with somebody else. So I feel like for us, we're verbs, so we need to go do stuff.

Yeah. You know, who knows, you know, for the, for the astrology boys and girls, I'm a Aries rising. So like, I think like supposedly that's all about, you know, just sort of action and being bold and courageous or whatnot. I think, I think for me also, particularly as a woman and again, particularly as a black woman, um,

um, I think that it has been important for me to also embody something, right? To get a certain level of embodied knowledge, A, about myself, about techniques, about the body itself. I've learned a lot about how the body works, a lot about nutrition, like a lot about, you know, what I personally need in order to perform well.

Right. And I think frankly, you know, especially as women being told constantly to be nice, don't be too aggressive, smile, use humor, be soft. And training gave me the permission to find my kill switch and to actively have people both female and male coaches, my, my, my coach actually in Dallas at Ohana warrior gym, um,

the head coach is a female and there's something deeply, uh, empowering, I think about learning your own physical power as a woman. Um, there's this paper called, uh, Um, I think, uh, if I say men, women, and optimal violence, actually, which I go back to quite often.

And a lot of the premise of that paper, it comes from a book called the frailty myth. Um, when it comes to, again, back to stories, the stories that we tell ourselves about women and our strength and our physical capabilities has been doctored and engineered over the years with the frailty myth argues. Right.

we've been told that we're weak. We've been told, right, that we need men for protection. Again, as a Black woman, you're also told that you're the opposite, that you're hyper-masculine, that you're too aggressive. And I think for me, and maybe that's why... fighting or specifically with Muay Thai, maybe I find it a certain level,

the aggressiveness and the elegance of it, but, um, which makes it kind of a feminine sport to me in a way. But, um, but I think for me, I think as a journalist and as a, I guess, a semi-public figure, um, I, I think I just take seriously that people are watching what I'm doing.

And if there's something that I want anybody, you know, watching or following my work or writing to see, particularly for women is that, um, our power isn't just limited to whether or not we can give birth. You know, it's not just limited to the labor that we give to men,

each other's like fighting is a deeply selfish sport and I like it. It allows, yeah, it allows as a woman, like when I was training, a lot of men have problems with it. Like, because like you are only, you are only focused on yourself, your routines, your nutrition, your training, your like,

and I think it's a beautiful way to give women specifically being conditioned to, um, to think about others all the time. And again, we do need that in our communities, in our society, but there's something really, um, interesting about being able to not only, again, embody putting on your kill switch,

but also being allowed to be so deeply selfish in a pursuit of your own desires. I just wanted to find people like, why can't you run? My ex was like, why can't you just do cardio? I'm like, because I can't. And this is not what I'm going to do.

I'm going to do this because it gives me pleasure. And I think that's an in a world that's deeply afraid of women centering their own like pleasures and their own power. And like, I like it cause it's subversive. It's kind of a, I get to embody a sort of fuck the system and fuck these narratives about what

women can and should do. And at what age or not, like, you know, I'm, I'm pushing redacted. Yeah. You know, I'm getting older. And people ask, like, well, like, and I'm just like, they're like, when is your cutoff age for fighting or competing? And I'm like, I have no cutoff line.

My only line is when I don't get pleasure from it, you know? So anyway, point is, it's like, I guess I think about... there's certain ways of knowing things that go beyond intellectual and there's certain, I just believe in embodied being an embodied, uh, representation of your ideals. So I,

I talk a lot about courage or I talk a lot about like, I guess, you know, fighting for your communities or human rights or whatnot. And there's something about training Muay Thai that, um, helps me kind of walk the walk. Um, and maybe people see it that way. Then again, you know,

I'm not going to say that every, you know, all fighters are necessarily like moral upstanding citizens. Like I'm not trying to say that. Um, not everyone is some sort of holy warrior, but that's just how I, I deeply think about the things that I do.

And I, when I do things, I, I just very conscious of, you know, my drivers. And like I said, I, it's very nice sometimes to hear, even though it's not, I'm some big name fire or whatever, but like just that people, maybe readers or people on social media will, will message me and say, Hey,

I started taking a Muay Thai class because I saw you do it. And I'm like, that's awesome. My dream one day would maybe be to train other women. But for now, I got to step back into that ring again, at least once.

And so in speaking of that, in teaching others, right? You've done boxing, you've done Muay Thai. I think you've mentioned to me in the past, you've done Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. You've also spent a lot of time in the weight room.

Yes.

And so all these different things have different pedagogical approaches to learning. Even the weight room, even if you're training yourself, right? It's kind of like a DIY style of learning, maybe more similar to like skateboarding. So how would you describe the various learning approaches you've encountered in your physical pursuits.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I think that, and it's true. So, so after I, I, I, I didn't even lose at the Muri Thai Open. I didn't win the championship belt, but yeah. I took home silver. My perfectionist self was still like, again,

I was so beholden to a certain story in my head that my redemption arc was going to be from getting out of a bad relationship, getting out of my colleague being murdered. I was using this hero arc in my mind that I was going to redeem myself by getting a championship belt.

You couldn't complete your story.

Yeah. And when I lost and not even lost, but like lost by split decision. I know, man. I like, no, the, the, my opponent was, was she had me in the clinch. She did much better.

Oh man. One different judge, right?

Yeah.

It's so close.

Right. So, so that I just, I wish I had been taught. or maybe I was meant to go through that, right? I don't know. But like, I wish I had been taught about how to lose and that I should have not, again, holding onto a story that kind of was a bit toxic to me.

in terms of holding on so tight to only one outcome being acceptable and, you know, indicative of my self-worth. So I'm laying all that all out to say, I quit Muay Thai for like, like I couldn't, I couldn't, I felt ashamed maybe because I felt like the whole world was watching me and

expecting a certain outcome and I couldn't or didn't deliver. And so I felt a lot of, shame and so and i felt like especially losing in the clinch again the story in my head was just like you weren't strong enough like you shouldn't your posture

shouldn't have been broken like that which again isn't a matter of strength more so like maybe technique and kind of fight awareness and but that's what that's the story i carried And so with that, a friend of mine suggested weightlifting. I've actually always loved weightlifting.

I'd always done it as a companion to other sports or recreationally, but I'd never... And I'd always been curious about being strong. I'm like, man, why can't I be able to be strong like that? And so, yeah, I started at a powerlifting gym and had, again, male coaches who...

And I think what I learned from powerlifting and just focusing on three or four big lifts was... Again, I guess fighting, going through that discomfort and challenging, again, those limited ideas I had in my head about how much I could lift. And when you have someone who, a coach especially, who says, nah, put on an extra disc,

you can do it. I'm like, are you sure? He's like, nope, go up, go up, like stop, you know, stop. being at that same level and um you do it and you're like holy shit a whole me being able to you know squat this okay I had no idea I could do these things um and

was never encouraged to do it and so I think in terms of the learning, in terms of what I learned about what was necessary to be an effective kind of weightlifter, but then also like bodybuilder in a way was almost opposite of what I was conditioned to do in Muay Thai.

So like Muay Thai was like a lot of go, go, go push through your pain. I was training for like four hours a day, five days. That was insane. It was insane.

But that makes more sense, though. You had so much invested into it. The reaction makes more sense.

Right. Yeah, exactly. I put so much into it. I cut weight for it. Not that I actually really needed to, but maybe I just felt, again, like I used that as some sort of transformation period after going through trauma. I felt like I didn't want to be the person that I was anymore.

So I put myself through that fight camp and through a pretty kind of intense weight cut. Um, and so then when I got, and I dropped a lot of weight. And so part of it was not only did I lose, I looked back at pictures. I'm like, gosh, I look like a string bean, like, right.

Like, so then my office, because I don't do halfway anything. I was like, all right, I'm just going to get bigger. I'm just going to get jacked like for fun and purely not for competition, purely for the for the pleasure of it, I guess. And I just focused on that.

And one thing I learned about powerlifting is powerlifters rest a lot. They like, so you do your sets, you know, you can be in and out in an hour. You do kind of, yeah, heavy weights, but like moderate rep ranges. And then you're often resting like maybe two minutes or something before,

two or three minutes before you try your next set. And so powerlifters often joke about, you know, like, camping out, bringing their sleeping bags in between set hogging the equipment. And there's something profound to me in that. And I saw the most progress when I actually stepped back from training so much and had more rest,

didn't push through. It was Muay Thai, I was taught to push through, push through, don't show pain, push through, push through, push through. With powerlifting, you can't. your nervous system after maybe four to six weeks of just pushing your, your coaches, the coaches impose a deload time, like a rest period and,

they're like, or else your, your body will break down. And then what, what use are you then? Right. And I think my first, I ignored that advice being me, I ignored that advice at first, because I think I was just so, so in the kind of grind, grind, grind that like after six weeks of heavy lifting and,

um, again, you know, not being wise about it. Like I could feel, I started getting moody, irritated. I started failing lifts that I should have made. And I was like, what is happening there? Like your body is telling you to rest. And so for me that the,

the teaching that there is growth in being slow and resting and feeding yourself. Right. Yeah. again, I think as a woman, we're also taught to be small and to be weak and powerlifting or weightlifting, bodybuilding gave me the permission to like eat a shit ton, like so within reason, but like to like really prioritize my own nourishment,

like basically you have to train, you have to become a baby, like eat a lot and sleep a lot and grow. Like, and it's pretty awesome. So anybody who follows me on Instagram, yeah. Like I think genetically, you know, I put on my, my body changes very quickly depending on my inputs.

And, um, so yeah, I was thinking about doing a figure competition just purely for I don't know. I like the idea of being able to modify your body over time. And I look at it as this very body neutral. I don't think I'm any more, again, morally superior because I can stick to a routine.

I think it's just, again, curiosity of what is my body capable of? However... I think, sadly, for me, my growth is not just about the weightlifting or movements or training. The growth comes from the community. And I progressed... really quickly when my powerlifting gym was open, sadly, um, the powerlifting gym in Dallas,

the owner decided to close it. So we were all dispersed, like to the wind and, um, and I found it, I still train and I still live, but I, I, I found it and I found, you know, weight training kind of that works for me,

but I found it really in a way hard to progress because I didn't have the community. I think I didn't have a spotter, like, um, Um, and I travel a lot, so I, I go to different gyms, but that loss of community and I'm thinking about it now, um, is part of, is part of the art.

So I think I'll still lift, but part of the reason why I'm, I'm going to Muay Thai is not just, um, is that I know I'm not going to grow in isolation. I mean, there are plenty of bodybuilders and like bodybuilders, I guess, who self-train.

But I think I'm finding the limits of that, of being kind of alone. And I'm deeply in a period, again, same with writing. I was trying to do my book alone and I fell into... like horrible writing blocks, horrible depression. I, I, I thought I could sort of do all of these things by myself.

And I realized as an eldest daughter of African immigrants and perhaps conditioned to feel, to be hyper-independent, but both like powerlifting or weightlifting, Muay Thai, book writing, publishing, I've deeply learned that my strength comes from being in connection and community and in concert with others. And, um,

that's a huge part of the reason why going back to my Muay Thai community here in DC, uh, was not just, it's not just like a sort of hobby or activity. Like it's life-giving for me. When it comes to Muay Thai, you have your coach who gives you techniques and who supervises perhaps your techniques,

but then you learn so much from your various partners, the people who are holding pads for you. You're learning about their experience. You're learning also from watching maybe a style, somebody's style that you like and watching how they do that. You can't really do that for bodybuilding, I feel like.

Um, you know, when you're dead lifting something, like there's nobody's going to help you. Like you either make the lift or you don't. Um, uh, but there's, there's something about Muay Thai or boxing that like, I mean, yeah, you can have a one-on-one coach, but even when I was training to fight,

like our coaches would bring in different people with, for us to spar with so that we could learn, um, other people's styles, other people's body types. How do you fight a taller fighter? I'm a long-limbed, tall-ish female fighter, so what do I do with a shorter fighter?

That's just not really something that you're having to be concerned with in solitary strength training sports. But both have complemented each other, again, in the sense that, especially as I get older, that rest and integration like muscles grow when you're at rest and I think when with me

I know that there's schools of thought that think hard sparring all the time is the way to go but I think you know now you're seeing kind of more shifts in that that like you know different approaches in terms of getting people to play more

And I asked you about editing because I often describe being a fighter and a coach as being an editor. You're introduced to all these movements as a fighter, but to be good, you have to find your own style, your own voice, which means editing and highlighting and rewriting what works for you as an individual.

Likewise for coaching or from the LMA perspective, a training organizer, I help organize the things people have been working on, encourage their strengths, Highlight their strengths and give them confidence when they're on the right track. Highlight and protect their personal voice and foster trust. And when there's something that's not working, I don't rewrite it for them.

I just help them organize their thoughts or movements. As an editor, writer, and fighter, have you thought about the parallels between editing, writing, and improving in your physical crafts, your martial arts crafts?

That is fascinating. I've never thought of it that way. Yeah, absolutely. An editor is an organizer. And I also think... It's about sort of, again, you're having to, the same way that I like to sort of get to know writers, coaches get to deeply, coaches and sort of facilitators, hopefully the good ones.

You know, it's not just about learning technique, but how do you learn that person? Like, um, I'm sure, you know, so many coaches, it's not just that they know, uh, you know, maybe what their fighter had for dinner before training, but they know a lot about their personal lives, what's going on with their families,

what's going on in their relationships, because all that stuff you bring into the ring and, um, For writers, they're bringing their totality of their life experience into their writing as well. So I think, yeah, I feel like... And I also feel there's something about, I think as an editor...

And maybe same, and maybe you can answer this as a coach. There's something that lights up in a person, and myself as a writer too, when you're with an editor or coach who sees you deeply, who gets you, and is like, and not just that, but is like, I'm going to fight for you. Right.

A lot of being an editor, like either a direct editor or sort of a managerial position editor, is you have to fight for your writers. And when maybe a piece gets challenged, which they do, as an editor, I have to say, I stand behind this piece and I stand behind this writer and I stand behind their work.

So you're also someone, you know, just like a coach maybe who wants to challenge, you know, unfair people. calls perhaps, or yeah, as a coach, you're also, I think willing to fight for your fighters. You know how much they're putting on the line. And if you're a coach that's been a fighter before,

and for me as a writer, and I know some writers are at more risk than others, but I don't take what they're doing lightly. And for some writers, I've had writers, obviously I've had a writer that's been killed by the ultimate price, but I've had writers who've been jailed, who've lost their jobs because of what they've written.

And so... I have to be prepared to, and I have both maybe within my institution, but then in the outside world to defend them and say, I stand behind this. And so I'll never publish anything that I can't stand behind.

You know, a lot of what you say, right, as an editor, what you've been through, if you talk to other editors and Maybe they haven't been through that. They haven't had a writer who's been murdered. They haven't had a writer who's been jailed, right? But if you talk to coaches, especially like boxing coaches, they'll be like, yeah.

So there are a lot of parallels. Because when you take somebody to the ring, right, they have to trust you with their life because you can, because of the head damage, you can die. So you have to trust this person with your life. And I feel like as an editor,

especially covering the world and in these kind of areas where it's very dangerous, right? You had to take that on.

Yeah, exactly. And as a coach, if a coach is cornering someone in the ring, and I think part of being an editor is you're covering for a writer's blind spots, things that maybe the coach, the corner will be able to see that you can't. Which is the whole reason why you should, if you have a good rapport,

you should listen to them because they're trying to, they might be seeing something coming that could knock your lights out. Right. Or seeing something about that opponent. So I think as an editor, same in the sense that my writers would, you know, not always maybe see potential pitfalls, sometimes legal pitfalls. So, you know, we have to,

and being at a place like the Washington post, obviously we have the resources to, to not like, So legally, and then also kind of in the public eye, right? You know, defend our work and defend our writers. But yeah, I mean, I think broadly, the bigger state of journalism is that journalists are more frequently under threat

with less and less and less protection. I mean, last year was one of the deadliest. I mean, the war in Gaza, obviously, or frankly, Israel's genocidal assaults on Palestinians, resulting in the highest level of journalist casualties, like recorded history for a conflict of that duration.

But threats against journalists are rising every year, including here in the United States. Yeah. So this is something that is You know, as I said kind of early in the conversation, sometimes I felt like, especially with everything being digital, sometimes I feel like, okay, I'm like a writer just putting words, typing words to a paper.

It's going onto a screen. And there's a certain disconnectedness, a disembodiedness of the perils of that. You know, like how a keystroke could get you killed. Yeah. And it's, yes, it can. And so I guess like, um, same, I think as an editor, there's, there's, there's, there's a level that I can go to, to, to protect people.

But then I also have to accept in some ways that, um, people die doing this. Um, I've had to have personal security because of, you know, my work and, uh, and I, and threats and things like that. So in many ways I talk about fighting the ring and, and in some ways, like I'm just play fighting. Right.

And I, I, I, I toggle back and forth, right. Between, um, being in the ring and I, yeah, indeed, you know, I could take a bad shot to the head or a badge and I could, yeah, like legit, I could die. Granted in a ring, there are rules, there are skiers,

there's referees there ostensibly to keep everybody safe because it's still just, it's a sport, right? Yes. It's a sport. We're not at war actually, but, in the real world where I'm dealing with, again, back to the level of the power of stories and that powerful forces are willing to kill journalists because they don't like their stories.

Like, I think about that a lot. I'm like, wait, which is the life or death game that I'm really in? And toggling back and forth. And I don't know, maybe I should take a... Swimming. For some reason, I guess grappling with power and life and death is what I've been called to do.

And I don't feel like myself if I'm not. So I guess I've just, just like any fighter, when we sign that liability form, I've accepted that risk with my job and my work. So yeah. Okay, let's go.

Something I tell people who teach martial arts, especially when they're thinking about safety, is you can only do so much, but you can't guarantee anybody's safety. And I think that's something that people sometimes forget. They feel like it's their absolute responsibility to protect everybody, but it's like you can't guarantee anybody's safety.

You can't even guarantee your own safety. So we have to kind of give ourselves that permission, right? Whether you're an editor, a writer, or a fighter, I guess they're all the same in that way, right? We can't guarantee safety.

No, we can't. I wish, again, I guess I call myself a besieged idealist. Not optimist, but idealist in the sense that in my ideal world, we would all be safe. And I think at the very least... I can't guarantee that a person's maybe physical or professional safety isn't at risk if they write for me, but I'm like,

I can guarantee that your voice is safe with me. At least I can do that. Anything beyond that, I guess I don't really have that much control over, but at least to the best of my abilities and to the best that I can meet you, this person with your own interior world that I will never know quite.

at the very least for this 800 word essay, you're safe with me, you know? And that's, and vice versa. I've had me as a writer, that feeling when someone sees my work. I mean, I've been a writer for a long time, but I still, there's something deeply, I'm reading The Art of Loving by Eric Fromm right now.

As humans, we hate separateness and the feeling of being alone and not perceived. I think for us as writers, it's our way of trying to overcome that separateness from the world. We all profoundly maybe feel, you know, alone. So we enter into relationships, into community, into political identities, into tribes and all that stuff. But again, I think,

as a, as a writer, it's the chance to, um, to connect and there's always risk, um, because connecting also means inspiring to mean inspiration. It can mean, it can, it can mean happiness. It can mean hope, but it can also trigger anger, jealousy, discomfort, rage. Um,

hatred and I think to an extent you if one is good at what they're doing you can kind of write with that in mind perhaps like yeah I'm looking to like you know, penetrate people's souls and through their, through their, through their blocks and everything.

I think ultimately it's, it's something about, I'm, I'm trying to let you remember me. And there's something very audacious about that. Again, as a woman, I think to say that, like, you know, whether you encounter me on the page or in the ring or,

Um, it's going to be, I hope, you know, an interesting encounter, at least for a brief moment. And then you release them, you know?

Yeah. Beautiful. Let's say someone listening to you right now wants to start a physical routine. What's your best advice for them?

My best advice, I do get asked this a lot. And I kind of, people ask me, okay, well, what's your fitness routine? And I'm like, I don't even really like the word fitness. I really do call it figuring out your physical practice.

And I start with, I often ask people like, well, what did you enjoy as a kid? Like, go back to like, what felt fun when what felt like you were meant to move this way, right? Again, I've tried out lots of different things, lots of different sports, and I've ended up in this sport, at this juncture.

It could be something else five years from now, you know? But I think it's allowing yourself that... I tell people, be curious about what you like and keep doing that. I think what matters most is... the consistency. And I think that is just fueled by, again, same with writing,

curiosity and desire to kind of know more and deepen deepen yourself. So I, I guess, you know, for some people that's, that's walking, you know, every day for some people that's depending on their mobility, that could be Tai Chi. It could be dancing. It could be Pilates. It could be anything like I'm,

I'm very agnostic about what it is, but I think, I think what matters most, I just tell people find what gives you pleasure, honestly. I think our society is so results oriented. We want to have that after picture. We want to have that revenge body or whatever. And I've been there. I don't completely knock it,

but I think what gives me lasting power is not the grind, it's the pleasure in it. I take pleasure in specifically weight training and martial arts gives me pleasure and I'm interested in showing up every day and just especially with the world being so chaotic and things changing so fast there's something just very simple just like

again if somebody were to ask me about how I got into martial arts my path into martial arts was basketball so Because I was able to at least have the self-awareness to pick out like, okay, I like basketball, but what exactly did I like about it?

I was like, oh, because I got to aggressively hug people on defense. Like I liked the sort of direct confrontation. And so from that, I was like, oh, yeah. all right, that's, that's a clue. That's something there. Okay. Let's try it like boxing. Oh, okay. Then from there, the graduation was to Marie Tai. Okay.

And you know, so consistency is better than perfection. And I think that's, that's what has, guided me in my writing. I mean, I, I, people think it's about, oh, are naturally talented. Actually, my brother's a more naturally talented writer than I am, but it's just that I just kept, I just kept writing.

I write in my journal every day, almost every day since I was 12. I, I, if I wasn't at the post, I keep telling people the post gets sick of me tomorrow and say I've, you know, someone called me a third world agit prop, uh, propagandists, they could say, you know, we're tired of you, you know,

in your woke self, they could say it's over tomorrow. And I'd be like, cool. As long as I got a pen, I'll still write. It doesn't matter. You're not going to take that away from me. And it's just, again, it's something that I feel very compelled to do.

So again, if I tell people to really think about, I tell people to kind of think about themselves in a way and their path and what along their path in terms of physical practice made them feel grounded and made them feel like themselves. And any, almost any physical practice is better than doing nothing for sure. So yeah,

similar, I guess, as an editor, I love it when people get into their flow and when they start to discover things. It's like, that's interesting. Rather than, you know, I mean, again, I'm not knocking it, but like when people are like, I'm trying to fit into a dress by November, I'm like, okay.

But, you know, I'm more interested in what's going to keep you doing this Until next November, and then November after that, and then November after that, and then November after that. And it might not be what you think it is. So let's be curious, I guess.

Finish the sentence. My life without a physical practice would be... Chaotic, turbulent.

I would not be... I'm not a pleasant... I'm not as... I'm a nice person, but I'm not as nice to myself, and I'm not... training, it grounds me. And that's why I take it as seriously as I do talk therapy. Um, and I think that's, that's just me. I'm somebody who feels things extremely deeply. Um,

and there's an element of, uh, for that sort of training, just being out of your head and in your body, um, and trusting the wisdom of your body and your training. That's really deeply necessary for me. So yeah. Yeah, without it, I would not be okay.

Well, thank you so much for your time, Karen. Of course. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. This is such an excellent conversation. You're going to make me think about all these things for a while.

Good, good.