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/321/ Covid Dissensus ft. Toby Green & Thomas Fazi (Patreon)

Published:
2023-02-14 07:00:03
Imported:
2026-06
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On The Covid Consensus.

We're joined by two authors whose new book asks why lockdowns were adopted almost universally. National and transnational health authorities dropped pre-pandemic plans in favour of open-ended nationwide lockdowns which were to remain in place until vaccines were developed. Why this course of action? 

And how to account for the unprecedented level of policy alignment across the majority of countries: was it coordination, imitation, or coercion?

In part two of the interview, we discuss the devastating impact of lockdowns on poor and middle-income countries where the informal economy is the norm.  For access, subscribe at patreon.com/bungacast 

Links:

The Covid Consensus: The Global Assault on Democracy and the Poor—A Critique from the Left, Toby Green & Thomas Fazi

/213/ The Leopard Lockdown ft. Adam Tooze

/38/ The Economics of Exit ft. Thomas Fazi

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Comments

Maximum Ben

I don't know where to start but whenever you have anti-lockdown guest on there's always intellectual dishonesty, and the bunga boys don't push back of course. The 2019 report with WHO recommendations was about an influenza outbreak, at the outbreak of covid-19 tests were rare if available at all and contact tracing was almost impossible in a large population so the measures recommended in that report simply wouldn't be applicable. Waiting for positive tests to implement lockdown was obviously a loosing strategy, once one case is detected it's likely that dozens exist in the community. ... Anyway, it would be really helpful if those who oppose lockdown would give an example of what mortality rate might warrant a lockdown. 20%? 50%? Is there any level of danger that would warrant a lockdown in the minds of those who are so opposed to those measures used when encountering an unpredictable, actively mutating virus. Also I know it's been said before but you can't half arse a lockdown anymore than you can half arse fighting a house fire. A lockdown where Heathrow stays open isn't much of a lockdown. Political motivations and loyalties to capital meant that politicians locked down as much as the oligarchy would permit. Obviously capitalism is not equipped to handle a pandemic, but it is hardly the fault of epidemiologists when their voices are drowned out by the demands of the ruling class to put profit ahead of public health.

Andrew Mountford

In the same way anyone on the left was tarred for raising support for Brexit, or would now be tarred for criticising government positions on Ukraine Covid demonstrated the massive power of the political class when bolstered by the media and left-PMC (sorry for using the term!) It was quite terrifying in a way that raising questions about the impact of these lockdown policies on the developing world, or on precarious workers, or on mental health or on education wasn't just not really encouraged in spite of their obvious validity in questions of social policy it was actively staved off with an orchestrated campaign of fear and intimidation. Green/Fazi show the way that big tech worked with government and media to co-ordinate this but it filtered through to the PMC left. I'm a teacher and questioning the efficacy of closing schools was literally tantamount to outing yourself as a mass murderer. In the same was that questioning the 'AS' scandal in the LP makes you a racist or the Ukraine war makes you a Putin-apologist it is an extremely present and seemingly effective way of manufacturing consent and is quite dystopian. Supposedly rational and intelligent people would call you a killer for questioning the efficacy of obvioulsy quite useless flimsy cloth masks, or pointing out the massive absurdity and inconsistency of covid policies. In this regard Chomsky and others ideas I think are still very relevant. Coming to terms with how to operate and get information into the public domain needed for people to critique and question is a massively important question for all socialists. Green and Fazi's book is excellent and this discussion is helpful but as we are now 'allowed' to start to talk about these things (not that there will be any real recogning among the political class) because we are on to the next emergency. I can voice my views in public opinion now without hysteria or derision but it's too late, the damage has been done.

Davka Smolah Collective

How would the authors compare "lockdown" with the measures needed once upon a time for the Black Plague? Speaking of etymology, the Decameron was precisely about healthy people quarantining themselves away from plague because you weren't safe around someone asymptomatic but otherwise unproven to be healthy.

Dave M

I haven't read the Green/Fazi book but if even a fraction of Seymour's criticisms are accurate, then doing so would be a waste of time. It would mean that the authors are at best very incompetent and uninformed (one caveat is that Seymour is largely addressing the first edition). If Seymour is right, then the Bunga guys have made themselves look stupid by presenting such dubious material so uncritically.

Danny Pagarani

Can you guys get Todd McGowan on again to discuss covid lockdowns and the state of emergency/exception? He takes a completely different view of the politics to yous here in this 20 min address ; https://youtu.be/mXVA0hLn1DE

Andrea

Fazi is proving again and again to be sinking into a well of insignificance after the split of Senso Comune and the parting of ways with Gerbaudo. The last thing I read from him was a celebration of someone from the social democratic current of the Italian Christian Democracy. I have always been extremely critical of the responses to the pandemic, especially on the left, in ways not reducible to the depiction Richard Seymour makes of covid critics (a poor interview to say the least, not least because of the same problems about lack of counter arguments and indignant rage as much as they are seen in the bunga interview with Fazi, even if there is truth in some of what he -Seymour- says). International institutions coordinated by talking to each other (but more than 5 people, Fazi informs us), big surprise. And I won't elaborate more, because I'm too tired to look at people at each other's throat using fallacious arguments, exaggerations and plain and simple straw men. I would say that after 3 years we shoud begin to find some kind of Aufhebung by now though. And yet.