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/369/ Information-War and War-Politics ft. Jacob Siegel (Patreon)

Published:
2023-10-17 15:29:23
Edited:
2023-10-17 15:31:56
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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Content

On the war on disinformation and the war in Gaza. 

Jacob Siegel, senior editor at Tablet, joins us to talk about Hamas's attack on Israel and Israel's assault on Gaza. We also discuss how the US crusade against 'disinformation' has led it to apply counterinsurgency tactics to its own citizens.

Why did Hamas attack when it did? Has it been successful in stopping Israeli-Saudi rapprochement? How much will this change Israeli society? And what does Israel want to achieve in bombing - and soon invading - Gaza? 

Meanwhile, how has domestic politics become war? The state has meshed with corporate power to create an almighty surveillance apparatus. How can we start dismantling it? 

And how do we escape the postmodern hall of mirrors in which high diplomacy and low culture-war merge, in which domestic and international, and peace and war, all blur into each other?

Links:

On disinformation: A Guide to Understanding the Hoax of the Century, Jacob Siegel, Tablet

A trap has been set for Israel, Jacob Siegel, Unherd

End US Aid to Israel, Jacob Siegel & Liel Leibovitz, Tablet

On data: The Nanny vs. The Nanny State, Jacob Siegel & John Robb, Tablet

Manifesto Podcast, Jacob Siegel & Phil Klay

Files

Comments

Carson H

Based on who the guest is, I can only assume that this will be one of those episodes where, in a desperate attempt to distance themselves from the REAL Western ruling elite (blue-haired college students, Starbucks employees, people with laptops, etc.), the boys feel the need to contort themselves into the one truly radical position on Israel-Palestine, coincidentally held by 99% of elected officials throughout the global North: that Israeli apartheid is fucking epic and those Moslems just hate us for our freedom! The Trotskyist to neocon pipeline is real... If I'm wrong, someone tell me and maybe I'll give this a spin.

Alex McAuliffe

Any pushback or correction on Jacob stating that the US reduction of Mosul killed 'more that 10 million civilians'? that beggars belief

Davka Smolah Collective

Siegel sounds like he's talking an update on "Give War a Chance" by Luttwak.

Richard R

NOBS seems to prevail. The idea that Bibi is just done has a smell to it that reminds me of the lead-up to Trump in 2016. Didn't people already say this about Bibi in 2013? Someone will have to correct me, but I am sure we've heard this before. What a modernist IR approach seems to miss about the situation is the asymmetry--for example that those tunnels that can't be hit by an airstrike are also the only practical way of any sort of international trade whatsoever for Palestinians. like most Americans, I comment on the situation with less than perfect knowledge, but greater than perfect confidence. But it seems like in some ways that the Israel/Palestine situation presaged NOBS. If for no other reason than that, it seems to have always followed a logic closer to contemporary Chinese, "total war" military strategizing, rather than the realist or modernist conception of the rational prosecution of war by plainly identifiable actors.

Aaron Daniel Irion

I think this was a measured and valuable conversation but I hope that the crew has plans to bring on a guest that is less of an apologist for Israel and that can provide all the historical context that was left out by Siegel, as well as a richer discussion of what the left’s priorities should be and why it actually matters to not just throw our hands up and both sides this. There are innumerable Jewish and non-Jewish anti-Zionists. Would be good to have one on as a counterweight to Siegel.

Matthew Hollinshead

“The US strategic structural position… is the support the rise of Iranian power” A unique take even for Bunga. This guys a retard.

Ran Heilbrunn

Great episode. I'm happy to hear a discussion about my crazy homeland on your show at last. I'm eager to see what's in store. I do have a general comment that also applies to this episode. One of the reasons for the disconnect between the reality in Israel and the international discussion surrounding it is that discussions about Israel tend to prioritize foreign affairs over domestic ones. To put it more bluntly, Americans and Europeans often show little interest in, or a lack of knowledge about, the internal dynamics within Israel. However, these internal factors are often crucial. Israel is a complex and multifaceted place, and it should not be reduced solely to the conflict with the Palestinians. This most recent conflagration, for instance, dovetails a protracted constitutional and political crisis, which has, at times, led to civil unrest. Everyone seemed to have forgotten about that all of a sudden. Additionally, the Arab society within Israel have been suffering over the past year from an extremely violent crime epidemic. So, Israel, in other words, is collapsing from within. Understanding this background is essential for addressing questions raised in the episode, such as the role of the army in Israeli society and the prospects for Netanyahu's political survival, but it is also essential for a more robust understanding of what’s going on here. International analysts of Israel, particularly from the left, should make a more serious effort to integrate domestic and foreign aspects. But overall, excellent episode, excellent guest.

Matthew Hollinshead

Coming back to this, his argument for the IDF to systematically destroy the tunnel network with controlled demolition using a land invasion should be the point that you stop taking anything he says about the military seriously. Imagine what would be needed to do that: 1) a conscript army allergic to combat losses and POWs overcomes a dug in urban resistance of thousands of decentralised fighters in their home neighbourhoods who have the unquestioned support of the civilian population (Nothing like Mosul or Rakha which was an occupying force confronting a combined force of local militia and US support.) 2. Find all of the significant majorly of the tunnels and get to a point that they can be destroyed with any confidence. If it’s half the size Isreal claims It’s likely no one person in Hamas knows or could find out. 3. while fighting in the tunnels and the streets all while surviving the IEDs and mines also successfully collapsing the mines without taking horrific casualties. This man is, as I said, a retard.

Davka Smolah Collective

Well, the "information warfare" aspect of this episode suddenly became a lot more relevant about 12-16 hours after the episode was released. Giving it a re-listen.

Blake

Can't believe he actually mentioned Gamergate at 1:00:00. I remember people discussing the Digra/DARPA connection in Gamergate threads around 2015 but I had no idea people in the military actually thought it was significant. In general I thought this was one of the worst guests so far in terms of his analysis, but it was interesting to hear how someone of his military background views these conflicts.

Arron

us supports Iranian power to balance the region is the most wrongheaded assessment be ever heard

Charles

Parts around the 1hour mark made me really think a lot about Paul Virilio’s work; would be interested one day to hear you guys talk about him

James Foley

Really sad intellectual decline, less in this episode (which has its daft moments) than in online presence. As if one deleted tweet by Rikvah from Novara Media is “the Islamo-gauchist elite” marching through the institutions. Ordinary Brexit-voting Tory lads have a far healthier attitude to this conflict: polls fairly clear on that. So, tragically, does Owen Jones. The pod has fallen on the side of out of touch centrist blowhards and neocon shills. All an object lesson in what happens when you start confusing “most annoying” with “most elite”

Arron

Surprised to hear the bunga boys taken in by this guy. Some military bozo writing for unheard. So odd.

Lee Jones

Maybe this guy had some solid points to make about the disinformation system. But it was very hard to take him seriously amid truly outlandish claims: the US strategy is to build up Iran as a counterweight to Israel and Saudi Arabia; the US killed 10 million people in Mosul (population: 3.7m); the entire US ruling class is in bed with China, etc. Rather than challenging this nonsense, Alex was drawn into his crankism, stating that the US was "more totalitarian" than the fascist states of the C20th. The underlying problem here was a deeply conspiratorial worldview which doesn't account for the level of disorder and elite disarray in today's world. Less of this please.