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*Unedited* First Time Watching GoT 5x7 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-11-17 22:00:08
Edited:
2025-12-05 22:16:02
Imported:
2026-09

Content

Hot Mess reaction over here

Files

Comments

swilkins08

Regarding your intro, I think you'll have a lot of people pushing back with "its based on medieval times and that was the reality back then" but honestly I think that defense is pretty shallow. Westeros could just as easily had murder and torture and ruling classes without sexual assault, and even if that "needed" to be written into the story, there is no need to show it graphically while a character who is supposed to be mid-teens is weeping. Not sure what words are permitted in your comment section so I'll phase it as... I agree with you that "non-consensual" scenes are often overused because they hit a few key elements that the writers want that are hard to achieve otherwise - First, they get shock factor, every time. Second, they make the viewer extremely uncomfortable and often feeling violated at the same time. Third, is such a cheap/easy way to be like "this guy has no redeeming qualities and is fully evil and this other character deserves your sympathy". I think its pretty akin to torture scenes except the reality is that (per CDC estimates) ~1/2 of women have been sexually assaulted and ~1/4th of women have experienced fully what the show is displaying, in real life. Torture scenes get the same shock/uncomfortable factor but don't trigger 1/8th-1/4th+ of the audience by vividly reminding them of possibly the worst day of their lives. The unfortunate reality is its very easy to fit a sexual assault scene into most character's story, whereas something like torture is a lot harder to fit into plot. And something less "intense" like being beaten up does not get nearly the same emotional response. I also think its very... telling... that the only scene of a male character being sexually assaulted (Theon when Ramsay faked helping him escape) gets interrupted before the audience needs to watch a man get actually physically assaulted, but nearly every time its a woman, the scene is completed in full, on camera, often with the woman's face as the focus (Brienne being the only exception that comes to mind). I think its already shifting culturally and within a few decades if not less, scenes like this will age VERY poorly in media, the same way that calling people by gay slurs or using the N word does for films and shows from a few decades ago now.

Flexorcist

GOT stands out because of its realism. Might resonate more with you because Sansa is a woman, but the show argued that everyone goes through rough realities in this realm. The same Ramsey tortured the heck out of Reek but its not as shocking because its regularly shown on TV. But we are shielded to the suffering of women which happens as much that leads to people not realizing the true plight of women. One good example is Marie Antoinette, we always see and hear her extravagance, arrogance and her being out of touch. When in fact she was also abused in all forms during her life. All because its uncomfortable to face it

ybriK

Only commenting cause early 🫡

Mira Rose

I absolutely understand where you’re coming from. And I think your thoughts are incredibly honest and comes from the heart. I also have a problem with it and I think as women we feel deeper for these sorts of things. We’ve seen Sansa as a little girl and that sort of scene I feel is in bad taste.

Michael Bond (AKA codemonkey85) - PKMDS Developer

It doesn't really matter how popular or beloved GoT is - your feelings are valid. They would be no matter how you reacted. And yeah, we could definitely tell the same exact story without that bit.

IcySystem

I think you’re right that great stories and compelling character arcs don’t require abuse to be effective. It’s completely fair to find those elements distasteful or jarring, and I’m genuinely glad you’re speaking your mind about it. You might actually resonate with a YouTuber named Bookborn, she avoided both the show and the books for years because of what she’d heard about the show’s brutality. She has a hard time with violent or abusive scenes, but when she finally read the books two years ago, she ended up loving them. I’d describe George R. R. Martin’s writing as morally complex, deeply humanist, and fundamentally empathetic. He’s anti-war but historically grounded. He wants to show the real horrors that war inflicts on people, whether they’re nobles or commoners. That perspective is shaped in part by growing up during the Vietnam War. The show, on the other hand, often heightens the shock value, partly due to the showrunners, partly because of audience expectations for an HBO drama (question mark?). Still, it’s true that the Sansa scene kind of happens to a different character. For me, what stands out about Game of Thrones is that it doesn’t shy away from the brutality of the human experience, even within a fantasy world. These scenes can serve as warnings about the depths people can fall into. I connect this to Carl Jung’s idea that if we don’t confront our inner darkness, our shadow, it manifests unconsciously. As he wrote: “One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.” With that in mind, I think it’s important for each of us to choose our exposure to such material thoughtfully. As Nietzsche warned: “He who fights with monsters should see to it that he does not become a monster himself. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

Yari mandi

Littlefinger’s gift that he gave Cersei was a "Handsome young man". Implying that he gave her Olyvar so that he could testify. Then gave Lady Olenna the same gift, which was Lancel. This man is the cause of every destruction in this show😭😭

bloodraven

What you said at the beginning is right and don't worry, I am pretty sure we all fans of the TV show and the book are in the same page.

Trevor80

Can’t wait for the next ep 🤓

bard

GRRM does get flack for how he uses SA in his story so it isn't exclusive to the show

Dresdon

The last episode was the lowest rated episode ever at the time. Everyone felt the same way. Very much not needed

Pete

Unfortunately it’s a trope in fantasy, because it was a trope in the real world. Still is in some parts of the world. Horribly sad but I disagree that it’s bad writing.

bloodraven

it's a different tower, probably the abandoned tower where Jaime tried to kill Bran.

Itss_NattyJ

Cersei should have been lost to you. That talk she had with Tommen was all b.s., and I think you know that but are blinded by your love for her. She is thee worst—great character in the story and well acted but an absolute horrible person not worthy of devotion. About Theon/Reek, he went straight to Ramsey out of fear. They show him looking at the broken tower when he was walking outside with the candle in his hand. I like to think he intended to go to the tower and light the candle for Sansa (and himself) but out of fear of someone snitching on him and whatever punishment Ramsey would give him, he quickly changed his mind and went to Ramsey. I give him grace on that decision because he definitely would have been caught lighting that candle.

IcySystem

It wasn't all BS. She does love her children more than anything. She is protecting Tommen from Margaery and her manipulative influence. Ofc it's messed up, because she is over-protective, controlling, fear-driven and so on. But still...

IcySystem

The reaction was very widespread, but not literally universal. Many viewers, critics, and even cast members voiced criticism, but some defended the narrative choice. The rating dropped only by about 6% compared to the previous episodes in Season 5. The Sand Snakes fight also contributed a little bit to the negative reception of the episode.

Arkeves

The show had a major fall off after season 4, and your seeing that. Im curious to see what you think of the books though

Arkeves

Speaking of which, i would honest to god watch reaction videos if you made one for each chapter. Dont know if the other viewers would be down with that though

Louis

When the show was still on the air, the grape stuff was very controversial and many articles were written about it, and the fans complained about it constantly. So basically you aren’t alone about how you feel about it. I fast forward those scenes during your reaction. I don’t really like it either.

Paul Huffman

I saw an interview once from one of my favorite writers who was discussing one of his most famous books (Mystic River), that centered around the murder of a young woman. He made it a point to leave out any descriptions of the act because he said he didn't want anybody to get any kind of thrill from it. My point being, I agree with you that there are ways to give a woman significant development without subjecting them to that kind of trauma. And IF that kind of trauma is necessary to the story, there are definitely more creative ways to portray that kind of brutality without hitting someone over the face with it, and still keep the emotional punch you're going for.

Rob

My first big upset with the show was when they had Jamie rape Cersei on Joffs tomb. They weren't near the tomb in the books and she starts off kind of saying no not here but then agrees and tells him to hurry. I remember being so disgusted and mad after the episode. Same thing here. As others have said Martin stopped helping with the show after season 4 to focus on his books, (or possibly there was a rift?), and many believe it shows. I don't think you'll get a lot of push back from here on out if you notice certain things. For example if you start off wanting to laugh at something Tyrion says because he's usually funny but realize what he said is actually kind of stupid and not witty at all, trust yourself. That being said there's still a lot of good stuff in the later seasons, and it will still be fun to see your reaction to it, good or bad, or even mad, you won't be alone.

WanderingBecauseLostLol

I know thats a popular opinion, but I think season 6 is really close to form again. Easily the best of the post-source material content

Funkystar

The gift little finger had was lancel he told Olenna about her past with him and she probably acted on it, the high sparrow had no idea before i think otherwise he would have come for Cersei earlier no? But im sure lancel was the gift bc he did say ”a young man” same gift he gave Cersei about oliyver when lores was taken. Little fingers info took down 3 powerful people in kingslanding😭😭

Freja Corbinne

game of thrones literally has dragons, necromancy, warging, mental time travel, prophetic flame visions, ice demons (who also do necromancy), forest nymphs who throw fireballs, and a 300 mile long wall of ice 700 ft high. but apparently including sexual violence as a plot driver is necessary for realism

Freja Corbinne

There was definitely a point in season 4 where this particular thing got incredibly gross. The scenes of the Nights Watch mutineers at Craster's basically just throw in multiple shots where the women are being assaulted, including with nudity. Some of these shots just have this shit happening in the background for no apparent reason. Because apparently they really wanted to drive the point home, like having these dudes murder Jeor Mormont wasn't enough.

Flexorcist

Yup thats how fantasy work, like Tolkien used World War 1 and industrialization as a plot driver for LOTR. GRRM does that, he derives his plot lines from real historical events/or legends. I dont want to name them all because it spoils it. In the books Dany was 13 years old when she married Drogo. The TV show is a much much gentler version.

My_Cousin_Mose

I'm sorry to hear that the show made you feel that way. 100% understandable though. I don't want to say if it's in the books or not but whoever was responsible for this scene (George or the showrunners) I think did it for shock value. So I don't disagree with you at all in your intro. And on that note I'm really glad felt confident enough to express your negative thoughts on last episode and that trope. Many reactors fear to say anything bad and only say how much they love every episode and movie and that's just not the way it's going to be. So I thank you for your honest thoughts. Also I'm pretty sure Reek went and told Ramsey immediately. I think it was just deceptive editing to make you think he's going to save Sansa and then boom! Betrayal! But Theon is not there right now, he's Reek. I personally don't judge him too harshly for betraying Sansa here.

My_Cousin_Mose

I do disagree with you when you say Cersei loves her children actually. I think she loves them the way a possessive and abusive partner loves their significant other. Oh she'll cry her eyes out if they die or if they leave her but their happiness only matters as long as I doesn't negatively effect her. She doesn't seem to care less that she is hurting Tommen by what she's done to Marjorie. She went to the cells and doubled down instead of begging for her release. I don't think Cersei cares about anyone or anything except herself.

Freja Corbinne

congratulations for completely missing my point. does LOTR have these scenes in it? no. is LOTR without problems in its depiction of women? also no!

Flexorcist

I guess i am missing your point, because what i am trying to say is, a show like GOT is rooted in real life events. Unfortunately women abuse is as real, as say a Joan of Arc like character. For every Brienne there are Sansa and countless others. Again stories like that may be uncomfortable and unsightly, but it presents the monsters so the monstrosity will not be set aside

Freja Corbinne

oh I forgot the most supernatural thing of all: nearly every single main character has flawless complexion, none of the women have any appreciable body hair, and Jon Snow still has flawless curls like he finished styling his hair five minutes ago despite not having had a bath for months the world has to be ugly, but ugly people is apparently too far

Flexorcist

Thats a fair point on complexion an over glamming the women.

Freja Corbinne

yeah obviously, the point being there's zero truth to this "it's reality" justification because there's no point at which the authors have any obligation to depict things realistically. "realism" is a crutch just as much as it is a benefit. I don't think anyone particularly enjoyed watching a literal dungeon torture subplot happen over an entire season. it would have been effective enough just to have this all happen off camera and have Theon reintroduced as Reek, broken from torture a season after the audience is led to believe he escaped Winterfell

Flexorcist

Well thats the nature of GRRM world. Its dark, hopeless but there are rays of light. His style of dualism and its extremes made him one of the greatest fantasy writers of all time. I understand that it can be distasteful, i am just presenting an alternate viewpoint. I mean the show started with the kidnap and assault of a 15 year old kid from the North

Timebomb_

I like how you’re on the side of the narcissistic despots and not the freedom fighting monks lmao

Pondelet

I genuinely believed that everyone could see that. I guess I was wrong

IcySystem

What if she genuinely believes, that Margaery is a bad influence and Tommen needs to be protected from his scheming wife? You might be of the opinion, that Margaery is a better person than Cersei, but from Cersei's perspective it's not wrong to protect her 14-16 year old son from the snakes in the court. I would say she loves them, but it's the love of a possessive person with narcissistic tendencies. Most people with strong narcissistic traits do have emotional attachment to their children. I would call their love conditional or self-referential. It's certainly not unconditional love.

Alexander Maier

Doesn`t want to offend anybody, but I never get the point, why its more disgusting for so many people to watch a woman being raped, than someboy get beheaded or mutilated or tortured or burned alive etc.

IcySystem

That’s interesting, I have thought about this for a while these past few days. I think viewers have become somewhat desensitized to physical violence. In many stories, violence is integrated into the plot with war, revenge, power struggles. Even torture can be framed as serving a narrative purpose: forcing information out of a villain, punishing a character or showing how much a hero can endure, like the old woman tortured by Ramsay in this episode. You don’t get any of these narrative “justifications” with scenes of sexual assault. In some ways, sexual assault and torture do have similarities, both are degrading, invasive, and target a person’s identity as much as their body. However, sexual assault is closely tied to real-world trauma for many viewers, whereas almost no one today has personal experience with torture. If you compare Theon and Sansa, for example: Theon is an adult raider and an enemy of the North who has committed terrible acts. Sansa by contrast is a young, innocent girl. Her assault is fundamentally a violation of someone powerless. Added to that is the historical subjugation of women, which remains an exhausting and sensitive topic in an era that strives for gender equality (or at least a part of the population does, not so sure what's wrong with a country when the orange man is your president - twice lmao).

Brandon Greene

the lights in your headphones had me thinking you had big ol' ears but then i realized lol

Scott

Honestly, Cersei's storyline in this season is hurt by the lack of internal monologues that exist in A Feast for Crows. They're some of the best writing in the entirety of ASOIAF. Cersei's fear & paranoia gets cranked up to 11 after Tyrion is freed and kills Tywin. She sees ghosts around every corner and assumes everyone is plotting against her. She also believes the witch's prophecy from her childhood is referring to Margaery, which makes Cersei feel as though she's ordained to destroy her. So, while I definitely think you can make an argument that Cersei doesn't truly love her children, I don't think you you can make that inference based on the way she treats Margaery.

IcySystem

"game of thrones literally has dragons, necromancy, warging, mental time travel, prophetic flame visions, ice demons (who also do necromancy), forest nymphs who throw fireballs, and a 300 mile long wall of ice 700 ft high. but apparently including sexual violence as a plot driver is necessary for realism" I don’t need sexual violence in my fantasy stories, and it’s certainly not my favorite aspect of ASOIAF. If all of it were removed, I’d still enjoy the series just as much. When I dive into the world, what I care about most are the magic, the religions, the character development, the conspiracies, and so on. That said, I’m sorry to tell you, but your argument about "realism" is stupid. Fantasy elements do not erase the ability to integrate historical analogues or social realism. If you don’t understand that, then you’re missing how fantasy works and what suspension of disbelief actually means. You are conflating "fantasy elements exist" with "therefore nothing can be grounded in realism." It's like saying: Star Wars has unrealistic laser swords, so portraying authoritarian regimes is unnecessary. That's nonsense. The presence of the fantastical does not undermine the thematic function of the realistic. You treat "realism" as a binary, either it's 100% realistic or it’s irrelevant, which is intellectually lazy. You react as if showing violence is equivalent to justifying it. Depicting atrocity ≠ endorsing atrocity. What you are saying, sounds to me like: I didn’t like watching it, therefore it shouldn’t exist. You don't get to decide which narrative tools are valid.

Ronan

Why would you say things that could influence her reaction? So what if it fell off after season 4 in your opinion. Let her come to conclusions on her own about he feels about the later seasons

fritz

By that same logic, there should not be any beheadings, burnings, murder, dismemberment ... shown in the show. You are right, GOT could have been a different show, it could be about everyone getting along. GRRM is a history buff and GOT is basically a compilation of many historical stories. It's a medieval base story with some fantasy sprinkeld on top of it. It shows the brutality of that time and should be a warning to us and an inspiration how to rise above even then The only grape scene I can think of was unnecessary for character progression and was even counter productive was Jamie and Cerceis If you left out the scene between Sansa and Ramsay, you would have to rewrite a lot, Ramsay not being a sadist and psychopath, because that is what Ramsey would do. Sansa not marrying Ramsay, because otherwise she would end up in that room. Sansa not going to Winterfell because what would she do there besides marrying Ramsay, ...

swilkins08

>By that same logic, there should not be any beheadings, burnings, murder, dismemberment ... shown in the show 25% of the audience hasn't been beheaded. So no, thats not the same. >You are right, GOT could have been a completely different show, it could be about everyone getting along Considering my solution was "imply it but don't graphically show it and focus on the underage girl's face as she gets sexually assaulted", I'm not sure where you got that from. >GRRM is a history buff and GOT is basically a compilation of many historical stories. It's a medieval base story with some fantasy sprinkeld on top of it. It shows the brutality of that time and should be a warning to us and an inspiration how to rise above even then Called it. See my first paragraph again, "and even if that "needed" to be written into the story, there is no need to show it graphically while a character who is supposed to be mid-teens is weeping. " >If you left out the scene between Sansa and Ramsay, you would have to rewrite a lot, Ramsay not being a sadist and psychopath, because that is what Ramsey would do. Sansa not marrying Ramsay, because otherwise she would end up in that room. Sansa not going to Winterfell because what would she do there besides marrying Ramsay, ... Once again, "and even if that "needed" to be written into the story, there is no need to show it graphically while a character who is supposed to be mid-teens is weeping. " They literally could have just cut away immediately. Hell, Sansa's next conversation with Theon is "he already hurts me every night". They didn't show the sexual assault for story reasons. They showed it for shock factor.

fritz

Theons grape could have concluded, yes. But not sure what it would add to his character, I think at that point Ramsay saved him, I think Theon should have that feeling that he was saved at that point (before the rape) to make Ramseys roose more effective. Besides, do you consider loosing ones genitals less severe than being raped. Would you have preferred Ramsay removing Sansa's left arm? Sansa's character experiences extreme adversity, she still trusts Littlefinger to a degree, she has to wake up

swilkins08

>Theons grape could have concluded, yes. But not sure what it would add to his character, I think at that point Ramsay saved him, I think Theon should have that feeling that he was saved at that point (before the rape) to make Ramseys roose more effective. Interesting that this argument gets applied to Theon but not any of the women getting assaulted. Why wouldn't Theon feel even more saved if Ramsay interrupted after the people Theon perceived as the enemies actually started hurting him? >Besides, do you consider loosing ones genitals less severe than being raped. No. >Would you have preferred Ramsay removing Sansa's left arm? That would have been a lot more interesting writing, yes. >Sansa's character experiences extreme adversity, she still trusts Littlefinger to a degree, she has to wake up Ah yes, without us seeing her get sexually assaulted, we wouldn't know that shes experiencing extreme adversity just from her having her only hope skinned alive and shown to her (the old north woman), or her childhood "brother" figure broken by torture in front of her to betray her once again, and by her begging Theon to help her because Ramsay "hurts her every night". We have to specifically watch her get sexually assaulted for it to count. Right?

fritz

This argument applies for Theon, because rape is not his rock bottom yet and it would be to early. His rock bottom is removing his genitals, which you agreed is worse. And it wouldn't add a lot to get raped and the genitals removed later. I guess removing a limb would have been an option then. Sansas dream was always to marry a king and have the dream marriage fairytale. To me it makes sense that marriage becomes her worst nightmare, which wasn't the case with her marriage to Tyrion yet, that was actually a bit of an improvement.

swilkins08

Your first paragraph contradicts itself. He can't be sexually assaulted because its not rock bottom time yet, but then you acknowledge that more worse stuff happens so even if he was sexually assaulted rock bottom would still come later? Your second paragraph explains why Sansa had to be assaulted. It doesn't explain why it had to be on screen.

fritz

In my mind zooming in on a face of a girl crying is the least brutal way of showing it at all. Sansa was shown crying many more times already, so I did not consider it that bad. I guess you could pan away briefly before. Much more agains removing it from the storyline completely though, which Licha talked about it as well. Not a fan of hiding truths, because it makes people uncomfortable. Forced marriages and consumation was a thing back then and is still one in some regions. Completely erasing things like that existed is the fastest way of bringing it back.

swilkins08

Nobody is saying forced consumation doesn't happen or that it should be erased. The point is that almost every important female character has a "forced" scene. By number of spoken lines, there are 5 female characters and 15 male in the top 20. Of those 5 female characters (Cersei, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Brienne), 4 of them have a "forced" scene, and the one who doesn't is an 11 year old. 3 of those scenes happen on camera. The reason for that isn't because "they wanted to make it realistic". It's because they wanted to make it shocking.

Freja Corbinne

how many people survive being beheaded or burned over their whole body to remember it happening for years later?

Freja Corbinne

hey Bifi you might realize this isn't the way to speak to people if you grew up

Freja Corbinne

cool, I don't really care how what I said "sounds to you." You clearly didn't make any real attempt to understand my argument. This bullshit about how I apparently think realism doesn't belong in fantasy is a strawman. Nothing to do with what I said.

fritz

You say yourself that "1/2 of women have been sexually assaulted". I don't know the rate for men, but I would estimate it to be much, much less. So if it happens that much in our modern society, my guess would that it even happened much more in time periods equivalent to GOT. So then it seems very much realistic to happen to almost every female. It's not about distributing it equaly, it's about displaying a believable story. Those were not times of equality, if you want equality watch a show about present day California. You keep insisting that for you it is not about having it in the story but only about if it should be shown on screen. I rewatched the scene just now and I think they could have shown less of it and even Theon did not need to be there. So let's leave it at that.

fritz

I am waiting for AI to get really good and then I use it to remake GOT where Lady Licha sits on the small council as Master of Tea and meddles in Kings Landing and talks to our favorite characters in the same style she does in her pre- and post- discussions

Syncollector

I appreciate your comments in the opening and you’re far from the only person icked by how the show overuses and lingers in its depictions of SA. To me it’s the number one problem with the show, and the defenses of “realism” ring hollow to me. It’s gratuitous