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But then one particularly loud buzz cut through it all. The bees stopped swarming and turned to face the source. The Firstborn flew over and hovered in between them and Tarwantrad.

“Stop, queens not hurt now, don’t need attack. Flower one not hurting queens, flower one warning of danger.”

The bees stopped swarming and the buzzing quieted. The queens realized they had started losing control of their hives with their joint attack pheromones and reigned in their workers. From there, they all watched the Firstborn, waiting to see what the first defender of the hive of hives would say in response to the potential threat.

The Firstborn held her stinger, though, turning to Belissar instead.

“Queen of All Bees wants?”

Belissar had to nod, if reluctantly.

“Yes, she does, though I am not sure why.”

He turned to Velebee. His mouth twisted…but he had to ask.

“God of Bees…I trust you and I know you must have your reasons. Please, help us understand. Why do you want us to raise such bees?”

Velebee’s antennae glowed, but the oracle of bees buzzed her wings.

“Really? Queen of All Bees sure? But, are evil! Dangerous! Don’t like!”

The glowing grew brighter and Velebee went silent for a moment.

“…ok, fine, will tell, even if hate.”

Velebee finally turned to Belissar and told him the God of Bees’ answer.

“Queen of All Bees says is queen of ALL bees. Says many bees cuckoo bees, says need have for Tower of Bees to have all bees. But says trusts Hive-Builder Belissar find good way use. Don’t like, though, so please don’t let kill and replace.”

Belissar immediately nodded.

“Of course not. If we do pick these, I promise I won’t let them hurt you. Any of you.”

The Firstborn danced a salute.

“King turned bear-King things that break hives and spider-King things that catch workers into allies of hive of hives. Know King will do same with new bees.”

The queens all began dancing amongst themselves at that. Belissar nearly gulped, the bees once again thought quite a bit more highly of him than he did of himself. But they were trusting in him, so it was his job to find a way. He gave the Firstborn another nod and did his best to hold himself confidently. As the Firstborn said, he had managed to befriend beastkin and spiderkin, perhaps he could do the same here? And the God of Bees did say they were bees too, maybe they wouldn’t be as bad as he feared?

It was at that moment that the First of the Fifth’s First Daughter’s mana touched on the hive of hives, drawing their attention. She had remained silent up to this point, not joining in the buzzing or attack pheromones but seemingly lost in her own thoughts as her antennae twitched about. They had finally stopped twitching now, as the monster bee empress began to dance.

“Think…might not be so bad. Was remembering…when moved to Orchard, hive had no honey and couldn’t make enough. Fourth of Seventh helped, gave honey, fed hive, took care of. Was like cuckoo bees, just took from Fourth of Seventh and had take care of…but didn’t hurt her. Made joint hive, tried help once able.”

The Fourth of the Seventh happily zipped around the First Daughter.

“First Daughter helps lots! Takes care of hive now, so can go scout!”

The First Daughter started a happy dance before stopping and resume her previous one.

“Fourth of Seventh best…right. So…maybe new bees like making joint hives? Or maybe hive of hives can give new bees hives, send workers take care of. Then new bees don’t need kill queen, steal hive, because will already have.”

Beero crawled forward along the ground. As a former soldier bee, she had been more affected by the call to attack than the queens, but she had somehow kept herself in check by staying grounded. She now joined the dance.

“Is like hive of fallen! Can’t lay eggs, can’t make workers, need hive of hives take care of!”

The First of the Second, however, buzzed her wings.

“Not like hive of fallen! Beero and hive of fallen fight for hive of hives, always help however can. Worth giving workers. New bees just take?”

The First Daughter danced the negative.

“Won’t, because will be King’s bees. King will hatch, like all spawner queens. Will fight for King’s realm, so will fight for hive of hives too.”

Belissar himself paused at that. The First Daughter raised a lot of good points, the last one sticking out most to Belissar. If he spawned cuckoo bees as monsters…well, they’d inherently want to protect the Tower, right? Now, just because they came from a spawner didn’t mean they’d get along with the rest of the Tower, the light dragon hatchling came to mind on that count. But…they’d be defenders of the Tower and they’d listen to him, just like the light dragon had. So, it wasn’t as if he’d be unleashing unconstrained parasites upon his bees. He’d have a chance to talk with them, to convince them not to hurt the other bees…or in the worst case, to simply order them not to.

That, of course, assumed that they didn’t need to hurt bees to survive themselves…but the First Daughter raised good points on that as well. If the hive of hives could donate a hive’s worth of workers to take care of a cuckoo bee, then why would she need to conquer an existing queen? Perhaps…perhaps this could work out. Perhaps he could find a place for even these bees in his Tower.

And perhaps that was what the God of Bees wanted, for him to find a place for each and every kind of bee that existed. He turned in the direction of the nearest Shrine of Bees and bowed his head.

“Thank you, God of Bees. I think I understand now…”  

The Firstborn took off and started zipping around.

“Knew King would know! King is best king!”

Belissar smiled. He sure didn’t feel like he knew as much as the bees expected…but it didn’t feel bad at the times he could fulfill their trust in him.

“Well then, should we take these then? Or should we compare with the sky-splitters? We could always take those now and look for other cuckoo bee options later…”

Belissar then felt a tap on his shoulder. He glanced over to see Finnakynne landing there.

“Ah, Beely, you remember you still have a third option to read, right? I’m kind of curious about those…”

Belissar’s eyes widened.

“Ah…right. Yes, let’s check out the last option, first.”

Finnakynne giggled. Belissar shook his head to refocus before bringing up the reward options again.

After all, there was another cuckoo bee option to consider.

Phantom Cuckoo Bee

Vitality: Minimal

Strength: Minimal

Speed: Average

Magic: Excellent

Defense: Minimal (For effective attacks only)

Resistance: Average

Special: Above Average

Notable Skills: Possession Sting, Ethereal Stinger, Hive Possession, Empowering Possession, Brood Mother, Command Offspring, Ethereal, Mana Body, Mana Eater, Telekinesis, Dread Buzzing, Magic Affinity

Spawner Upkeep: 80 (40 with Blessing of Bees)

Evolves from: Mana-Eater Cuckoo Bee

Description: A cuckoo bee that has nearly evolved past the need for a physical body, embracing an existence as a mana-based organism. Phantom cuckoo bees no longer prey upon their targets in a physical manner, but instead feed upon the hive mana of eusocial bee monsters. They merge with the mana of the members of the hive, hiding themselves by possessing bees as they feed, controlling their host from within for their own advantage.

Possession by phantom cuckoo bees is not strictly negative, at least at first. A phantom cuckoo bee’s power fills the body of whichever bee it possesses, improving their physical abilities. The phantom cuckoo bee is also incentivized to help the hive grow and gather more mana-rich food stores, so it often uses its abilities seemingly for the good of the hive, pushing workers to work more effectively, defender castes to sting harder, and queens to lay more eggs. While individual possessed bees may wear down more quickly, the hive as a whole benefits, and so phantom cuckoo bee possessions are often not of serious concern to a hive, at first. This relationship, however, only lasts until the hive has gathered enough mana for the phantom cuckoo bee to evolve further, at which point it will consume all the gathered mana…regardless of the consequences for the host hive.

Another reason phantom cuckoo bees often are left alone by the host hive is that they will defend their hosts when threatened. In addition to empowering individual possessed defenders, phantom cuckoo bees layer their ethereal stingers over those of their hosts, or even extend their stingers out from unexpected places. Their stings are purely magical, bypassing physical defenses to attack a target’s mana directly. Should phantom cuckoo bees accumulate enough of their magical venom in a target, they can then possess it. While their ability to control non-bee hosts is limited, they can prevent the possessed target from acting further, leaving them helpless before the host hive. When layering their stinger over a host’s bee, they can make the bee’s own venom carry this effect, as well as empowering it to enact its own effects upon the target’s mana. Their wings, meanwhile, carry hints of Mind mana that are inherently disturbing to intelligent, possess-able beings, so they will buzz along with their host in an attempt to drive off attackers.

Additionally, their ability to consume mana grants their hosts additional resilience against hostile magic. As partly physical, partly mana-based beings, phantom beings can become mostly ethereal, letting them pass through solid objects and evade physical attacks. If they are hit, they can use their mana as a shield, avoiding any physical damage until their mana is spent. In a pinch, they can lend part of these abilities to host bees…so long as they find it worthwhile to lend said host their strength. The phantom cuckoo bee itself can jump from bee to bee so long as it remains connected the host hive mana, so one need not perish with any individual host.

As beings that are evolving into mana-based organisms, phantom cuckoo bees also learn to interact with the world through magic rather than physical bodies. The simplest form of this is telekinesis, as the bee learns to move objects through magic. Learning to wield mana in this way grants them an innate aptitude for learning spellcasting, often developing instinctive spells over time.

Note that phantom cuckoo bees grow significantly weaker as they spend their mana and are extremely vulnerable if forced to take physical form outside of a host. They will prefer to flee rather than fight in such circumstances. They are also mostly limited to possessing eusocial bee monster species as most solitary bees lack the necessary mana to sustain them, and those that don’t are often resistant to possession.

This one is a queen, capable of possessing entire hives at once and manipulating all the bees within, including host queens. She will then create a hive of phantom cuckoo bees to possess many members of the hive, creating a hive of physical puppets and spirit masters…or even several such hive, as she is fully capable of forcing different hives or even species to work together once possessed. A combined hive of many puppets, all serving one ethereal master. She is also capable of manipulating the hosts’ hive mana directly, using it for her own abilities and spells. Anything attacking her possessed hive will soon find themselves under assault both physical and magical as swarms of both phantom cuckoo bees and the host bees attack their minds, bodies, and mana all at once, all while the phantom cuckoo queen prepares powerful hive mana spells to finish them off.

At first, Belissar was more than a little freaked out about possession by ghost bees…but he then remembered that all the stories he had heard about that came from the Tower Lords, who probably lied to keep him away from anything magical, so he tried to keep an open mind. When he focused on the actual details…the phantom cuckoo bees didn’t sound that bad? They didn’t physically hurt their hosts or even force them to raise their own children, they even helped and protected their hosts! That sounded good, even.

Yes, there was that part about taking control of the host bees and then that other part about eating all of the mana at some point, but Belissar could just tell them not to do any of that and then it would be all beneficial for his bees…hopefully.

He turned to the First of the Fifth’s First Daughter.

“The hive of hives will have to support either of those bees, so please discuss which is better. Also, it sounds like both those cuckoo bees can evolve from earlier options, so we might be able to get them from less rare choices. If you think the sonic blue-banded sky-splitters would be better, we can take those now and look for cuckoo options later.”

The First Daughter danced a salute and started a joint mana dance with all the hive of hives. Belissar observed as he was able.

The Firstborn started it off.

“Phantom cuckoo bees make bees stronger? Don’t hurt bees, don’t kill queens, don’t even need give workers? All good?”

The First of the Second refuted her, though.

“Eat hive mana, though. Make harder coordinate, make harder for communers, drones, dancers, and ministers. Will make harder raise immortals, hive of hives already need more hive mana than have…”

The First of the Fifth buzzed her wings.

“Will make honey quality worse, steal mana from!”

The First of the Second joined the First of the Fifth’s buzzing.

“If honey worse, harder support bee army, evolve new bees!”

The First Daughter intervened before the buzzing took over the dance.

“So, would need make sure phantom cuckoo bees don’t weaken hive mana. Would probably need give own hive so won’t eat hive of hives’ mana. Need give both bees new hive, then, so need decide which more helpful. Also, can pick new solitary bee if want, only need give honey like carpenters.”

The First of the Fourth began a happy dance.

“Sky-Splitters amazing, incredible! Sound really strong!”

The First of the Second’s antennae twitched about.

“Attack by…buzzing very loud? Bumblebees also buzz loud, think can evolve?”

All dancing stopped at that. After a few moments of stillness, the First Daughter answered for the group.

“Don’t know, can ask bumblebees try? But, know can’t evolve cuckoo bees because don’t have, so pick one? Queen of All Bees wants too.”

The group fell back into stillness as they considered that…and as they considered which parasite they wanted to introduce to their hives.

Author’s Note:

…so we have to try to teach honey-eating parasites who don’t work about the hive of hives, huh? Well, I guess the hive of hives did find a use for drones, so maybe it can be done! Maybe that’s the reason Queen of All Bees is doing this, all bees need to be amazing and incredible and if anyone can help the parasites become so, it’s best dungeon master and the hive of hives!

Hopefully. Or, you know, we could pick the nice and deadly blue-banded bees…though, I did base that evolution on the idea of buzz pollination turned up to epic magical levels and fuzzy, friendly bumblebees also do buzz pollination…

On a meta note, I actually didn’t intend to end on a cliffhanger for this one, but I find myself legitimately torn on which of these two options the hive of hives would pick. Phantoms seem the more directly beneficial for the hive of hives, they empower existing bees and can even protect bees from harm, which would make King less sad! They also appear a bit more symbiotic, at least at first, compared to the overt parasiting chimerics do. But, on the other hand, phantoms are more expensive in terms of hive mana, a resource the hive of hives is already finding restrictive. They might end up pushing immortals even further down the line, not to mention their potential impact on hive communications and honey production…

But would the hive of hives find chimeric useful enough to justify picking over the benefits phantoms can offer? A new hive of beenomorphs that can mix and match existing bees, the hive of hives can probably see some of the appeal but also probably won’t find it as exciting as we do. So, would they actually think that’s a good idea, or is it just a cost-saving measure in their mind, compared to the more direct benefits phantoms seem to offer?

Well, Imma sit on it for a day or two, so let me know what you all think in the meantime! Keep in mind that ultimately I’ll go not with what is most meta but with what the hive of hives would think is best, because obviously bee decision best decision. Bee meta best meta!

Anyways!

What parasite will the hive of hives choose to introduce? Can bumbles buzz loud enough to evolve? Can best dungeon master bring the hive of hives even to parasites? Tune in next time, to find out!

Comments

Yami

i am for the cuckoo queen. hmm both queen don't know which i want.

Lisa

To me, the phantom bees sounded like they won’t hurt the regular bees - until they’re established enough to eat the hive they’re parasitizing. Yes, Belissar could order them not to control bees and not to eat mana, but would that work? He could order the butcher bees not to eat meat, but then they’d be weakened and useless. If possession and mana eating are required functions for phantom bees, as it sounds like, then they can’t be prevented without preventing the useful aspects. Killing other queens and stealing their hives is NOT a core part of the chimeric bees, so it can easily be done without. And the hive of hives already has an Empress and a way of working together as one. Introducing a new queen that is inclined to possess multiple hives and control them towards one goal is pretty antithetical to that.

Lisa

A lot of the praise for 4of7 is the way she’s always doing new things. The chimeric bees are the epitome of combining things to try something new. Beero learned lighting, then added fire, and ended up a battlecaster. Drones are useful for their ability to combine hives and blend mana. They tried lots of mixed matings to make new bees, with some results. The chimeric bees might be able to figure out which characteristics go well together and which don’t. And cross-pollination is very definitely combining different things to make something new. Really, the hive of hive could find lots of useful analogies of past successes by mixing things together.

Yami

for the future bumble evos that they should aim for we have two paths or rather i have two. first: evolve fire bumble and earth bumble, offspring: lava bumble evolve gravity bumble offspring of lava and gravity bumble: meteor bumble. second: evolve sonic splitter bumble? from maybe normal bumble or big bumble. third: evovle flower bumble to tree bumble? Or mutate

Kenneth Welever

So I like the phantom bees in concept but also the chimeric bees are a central concept of shared hives. Bee apartments and bee barracks would both provide ideal mixed hive conditions to empower them. But it would also be the same for the phantoms. The shared hives would be ideal places for these bees to blend hives even closer together. Remember how communers and drones blend the hives mana and pheromones together to empower many hives into one? The cocoo bees have the potential to do exactly that but on a full hive scale.

Thatguy92_

The way i see it, i feel like unless Tarwantrad and the gardeners speak up about the value of cross-pollination, grafting, and hybrids there's no way the hive of hives would pick the chimeric bees. We in the real world know the value of gmos and spliced organisms but the bees probably dont so the chimeric bees wouldnt stand out as a well of infinite possibility to them like it does to me. The phantom bees on the other hand blew me and the hive of hives away (i thought they were just going to be able to do what pixies do essentially). The phantom bees are essentially an all stats up and discount immortals since they use hive mana to extend the life of bees which certainly looks much better in the short, middle, and long term if they were to never figure out the depths of chimeric bees, with the capability to evolve into something even more directly helpful just by accumulating more mana which was going to happen anyways. The question of hive resources is a big one, but i see it as kind of a moot point. They are fundamentally parasites, they will only take in the resource department since they can not sustain themselves no matter how much they provide the hive of hives so its a question of whether they want to lose honey quality or quantity, but i dont think any creature less than a true dragon can disobey the dungeon master and they only need excesses of mana or honey to expand not to exist so if they start asking for too much its no big deal to cut them off. Who knows if the members of the hive of hives are as pragmatic and forward minded as me on this matter though.

Matthew Frasier

I think the chimera ones are better. One easy example is a metal slime bee. The hive of hives has already failed to make one but if the chimera gets involved they could easily combine the genetics to get a metal slime bee. And their description says that they can split off genetic lines. With those they could combine any tipe of bee that they want. They could make the blade bee a thing. We passed it up for other bees. They could make the harpooner bee by mixing the lancer and archer genetics. The phantom ones could help in a fight but they will strain the bees mana to much. As the bees said they need their mana to make immortals. The chimeras seem the best option. He has such a diverse species of bees to make anything they want. Combine the breeze and fire bees. Make inferno bees. Combine gravity, water and butcher bees, have deep sea hunting bees. There is much more potential use and benefits with the chimera over the phantom. And easier to help meld genetics. Because they are physical they would be easier to manage and prevent from killing all the queens. That is the main issue with the phantoms that I see. The phantom queens will possess the current queens with I think is a major negative for them. Stronger stings are good but combining sprayers and stingless sprayers could give a double shot of spray. These combos are just the ones off the top of my head.

CataFlan

My vote is for the chimeric ones. They can lay physical eggs and help with the work, and do the job of merges easier, even with the option of evolving a phantom queen themselves, somehow... Make illusion bees with light and shadow mana. Make some "impossible" merges like metal bees with, idk, Wind bees? There are endless options here, and the phantom is an evolution from mana-eater cuckoo bees, grab a cuckoo bees, make it eat mana, and voilà.

bugga

They'd probably guess that the chimeric bees could evolve into phantom if wanted and the fey might bring up that the chimeric bees could help Tamosmed's golem project Ps love the Chapter

Quill Inkwell

Okay, you've asked for our thoughts, and bee shall receive! So, both cuckoo bees sound interesting, and so I suggest thinking about what direction you want to take the story in. Do you want to go wide, exploring as many bee types as possible? Then Chimeric is probably your best bet. Or do you want to go deep, exploring what each bee species has to offer? Then go with Phantom. That said, I will list the different things I could see with each option. Chimeric: This one offers a solution to something the queens were running into a while back, namely, the difficulty in hybridizing. The chimeric bee could let them explore which elements/species work together and which ones don't. Especially since it talks about genetics specifically. You could also take chimeric in the direction of one of the chimeric queens learning how to harvest genetics from non bee species, leading to hybrids that way. (We saw hints of this in one of the POGs) Or you could step away from hybrids and have them focus on refining bloodlines (beelines?) by distilling the genes down to the best possible combinations. Heck, you could have one chimeric queen become an assistant to First of the First (the honey focused one) to explore mixing honey types. Phantom: This one would take the story in a different direction entirely, because of the new state of bee-ing. For example, what if they partnered with the zombees? They can't really die, and could lead to interesting body and spirit evolutions. Turn them from parasites to symbeeotes. They also have the capacity to learn wizardry, which is something Beeley has kind of neglected. Something like a master/student relationship? And imagine Mana honey from Mana based bees. Could also imply the existence of bees that go the other direction, and focus on vitality/life force. Could even become a way to help the god of death, with bees that sort of straddle the line between mortal and spirit. Finally, would add an additional layer of complexity that the hunger would have to learn to adapt to. Alright, I think that's everything. Sorry about the long comment, but I am an editor in the litrpg scene, so what can I do?

Durphymcbob

Thanks for the chapter! Ok the phantom cuckoos are powerful, but the cost of pushing down immortals is to much at least in my opinion, and their is alway the threat that they could evolve we have seen with bees that fighting you instincts to evolve is hard and next to impossible. I am more on the side of the chimera cuckoos they have alot more possible benefits the more you look into it. Their full potential does seem like it would reflect the Hive of Hives as whole and has theorical infinite growth instead of the Phantoms just making bees stronger. The hive of hives is all about multiple different bee hives working together and bees not even of the same species, the chimeric cuckoos show that front and center by being able to shapeshift into and mixmatch any bee species that is part of the hive of hives even the non eusocial bees. Plus they can grow along side the hive of hive if any new species of bee or bee caste is added it just gets added to their toolkit. And giving them a seprate hive and donating workers is extrmely easy for them, the hive of hives has access to broodmothers that can easily lay eggs, and they can make ministers to help run things if the cuckoos dont have those instincts. They can basically make queenless hives for the cuckoos to move into once they spawn, and with broodmothers laying workers to tend to their children they would never need to conquer hives to get more workers to do so, all they would need to do is give every species of bee 1 egg of her own to tend to and hatch so she will gain access to their genetics. Plus if things do go bad 1st of the 5th using her evolution to force, loyalty along with bellisar ordering them to not fight is enough to stop any nonsense. I hope my explanation for why chimeric bees are the best choice for the hive of hives make since to the author and my fellow readers.

n00by_ME

I personally would go with the Phantom Ones. The Chimera ones seem inherently unstable, while at first glance they sound like a help with getting new evolutions I find myself doubtful. The Phantom's seem far more like they could form a symbiotic relationship.

snidramon

The phantom bees open up that possibility of a lot of new spells beers, new ways to scout for 4o7th, and honestly seem a lot less... parasitic than a lot of potential options. Also opens up the option to force belli to open up and bee more okay with "bad" beehavior. I like it.

Durphymcbob

The main weakness of the phantom bees is them basically cutting into the same resource that is alot harder to build up for the hive of hives and that they need in order to be able to actually make and use immortals. Plus their is the bit about how evolution would kill the hive they are attached to, we have seen that evolution is hard for bees to fight off, and the hive of hives eventually getting to the level where they could make a legendary bee like immortals might be that limit. All the while the chimeric bees could be saited with broodmothers and ministers and maybe honey donations, all the while helping the hive of hives get to the mana level need to make immortals as a side benifit

Fernando Oliveira

Thanks for the chapter, loved it. This os a Tricky choice. All the options are good tho the two cockoo bees are better. If we went with the phantom they would drain mana from the give if hives just through the connection bit the benefits would be great.

William Clark

Metabee? Oh you said bee meta, my mistake

Durphymcbob

I dont think the chimeric bees would be able to help with the golem project. The two queen types cpuld breed a hybrid so their genetics weren't compatible. Plus we already got 3 bee queen character who each have had multiple pov chapters all focusing on making golems. I think the more likely ending to that story is bee crafting instead of slime crafting. The 3 queens each getting a specialized evolution that when ther work together they can mass produce golems.

Steven

chimeric bee mite help niobee with her wanting to change shape

Thatguy92_

It was mentioned earlier that honey can be used as a resevoir for or in place of hive mana so they both eat honey, the only concern is logistical but the hive of hives has blended the mana of completely separate organisms so i doubt that creatures mostly made of mana will be a problem to jack in. Also velebee resisted the urge to evolve for a long while despite being a mundane bee at the time so i doubt that'll be a real problem, and their description mentions evolving once they have enough mana and killing the hive as a byproduct not a key component so just having an extreme excess of mana could likely substitute the whole killing the whole hive problem. Lastly i think everyone in this comment section is taking the bee tower entirely too lightly, within the realm of bees the only army that surpasses Tower Keeper Belissar's belongs to a god and no one else is close. If these new gens act up the bee army will turn them past tense in an instant, frankly i think Belissar alone would be enough to eradicate a fledgling cuckoo hive especially since he can immediately identify who's who

Durphymcbob

Yeah the Hive of Hives is trying build up mana density and strength to fuel the legendary immortals, it kinda sounds like the perfect enviroment for the Phantoms to reach the point where they evolve and kill the entire hive, that is probably enough to turn the hive of hive off them. The chimeric cuckoos thou, the hive of hives can in theory make a queenless hive with Ministers and Broodmothers for them to use. Which as a side effect would help strengthen hive mana getting them closer to immortals.

Durphymcbob

Fair but it is still a risk, it is also harder to fight the half spirt bees living with-in and feeding from the hive mana, than a seprate hive of chimeric bees. The phantom bees would have to live in the bee city, the chimeric bees could and might but dont have to and could be sectioned off. And the phantom bees just existing would hurt production of honey, communication and everything else the hive of hives uses the mana links for. Their are alot more downsides to the Phantom bees that might turn off the hive of hives from them. The chimeric bees could just be handled by gifting them workers and honey. Like the hive of fallen. But if all else fails firsts daughter evolution does technically give her the abilty to force hives to bee under her command.

Durphymcbob

I mean the Phantoms evolve and kill their host hive when the hive reaches a high enough mana level. Like what the hive of hives is trying to do so they can use the legendary immortal bees. Along side hurting honey production and communication.

bugga

My thought process was more like the mining bees turned the metal in the honey or pollen the chimeric bees processes into slime in the slime bees control the Slime to make the Golem that was my thought process of how they could help

Thatguy92_

I hope you dont find the back and forth insulting by the way. The way i see it they would at most reduce honey quality if allowed to eat as much ambient hive mana as they like since production is based on pollen whereas quality is based on mana concentration and whatnot, which i agree is a concern considering how many evolutions we have planned, but I think the resouces needed to expand and the resources needed to exist are two separate things, they can likely subsist off of a much smaller amounr of mana mana without growing if the hive of hives or Belissar tells them to stop so anything beyond this is assuming they are actively resisting the dungeon master. The hive of hives is no stranger to mind mana and blending the mana of multiple hives and maintaining communication amid strenuous circumstances, so i cant see any reality where the dread buzzing provides a consistent logistical problem. Additionally the hive of hives has many higher evolved bees and from their deacription essentially saying that bees that possess strong mana may be immune or able to resist possession combined with the groundmelder queen having to evolve to contain Vinoi's mana, and the description of the monster bee empress, and all of the monster bee spellcasters really makes think the hive of hives' mana quantity, quality, and control is much higher than the average prey of the Phantom Cuckoo bees which i would assume to be regular monster bees since they seem to a variant as opposed to a proper evolution but even if they are a proper evolution i have strong reason to believe the mana of the many evolved queens of the tower outweighs the would be intruders. The Phantom bees have no mana source of their own and the mana of the hive would be opposing their possesion in addition to the magic attacks of the hive opposing them and the description describes just how weak they are when they run out of mana and the lose their possession and become corporeal. Although I really dont see any reality where the Hive of Hives eve suffers minor losses against either parasitic bee species in the event they decide to defy the dungeon master which i dont even think they can do, i do admit that the theoretical risks of the Phantom do outweigh those of the Chimeras, but most importantly the plausible benefits for the hive of hives that the Phantoms provide are much greater than the benefits provided by the Chimeras. Remember, things thay seem simple to us are groundbreaking to the medieval peasant and bees that occupy the tower so i highly doubt they'll use much of the Chimeras potential if any, especially since there's no indication that the cuckoos can breed with the regular bees so any discoveries would be just discoveries at worst or cuckoo exclusives at best as they may not be replicatable in non-chimeric bee species

Swiftato

I wonder if he could get the phantom ones to evolve in a new direction, rather than parasitizing bees they could become the worlds first sym-bee-otes and open up a whole new realm of cooperation amongst bees

Orion Belt

You could have them choose one then have them ask the god of bees for a quest so they can get the other one at some point

guwa

If the hive of hives decides on the phantom, even if they reached the CONSUME ALL MANA stage, I'm sure Belissar would be willing to donate some of his honey stores to prevent any damage to any of the hives. Also, I'd imagine by that point, the phantoms will have long been incorporated into the hive of hives, and so there will probably be a lot of time to prepare for any negative outcomes well in advance. That being said, one of Belissar's tower's strengths is the diversity of his monsters. The mixing and matching of physical and magical evolutions is kind of his whole thing, so the chimeric bees would slot right in. As expected, picking between Epic quality monsters is tough!

Mirah H

I think the chimeric bees would actually be a good option to test mixes in the extreme rooms. Add her to a death hive so the bees can return as Zom-bees. The chimeric cuckoo bees would also be useful in testing mixes for the hive of hives to try so they aren't testing as blindly

Durphymcbob

No i do not find it insulting i actually quite enjoy it :) The main this is that at the end of the day they are parasites while yes they could be told not to do it, these are monster bees with the instinct to grow their hive, and they will continue to grow alongside the hiver of hive no matter what The main thing that scares me is the whole when the hive gathers enough mana to evolve it kills the hive by absorbing all of it. and the hive of hives is purposely expanding making more queens and more bees to increase their mana in order to create Immortals. We know that fighting off the urge to evolve is hard, and they could eventually give in or just diside to fulfil their purpsoe as parasites and Boom the a majority to all of the hive of hives is death in a snap. The only thing that they feed on seems to be same thing that hive of hives needs to grow in order to make the immortals, is not the mana honey itself or the mana itself. Its the Mana Hive Mind itself that the monster bees have, its why they are expanding and drones working to fuse mana to deepen the hivemind bond until their is no difference between the hive at all. The Chimeric Bees are just a much smaller of a risk feeding on just honey and needing others to raise their kids, i mean with Broodmothers and Ministers The hive of hives can theorically make a Queenless hive for them to have. Plus if they do go rouge they are much easier to deal with than the phantoms possessing bees and making them fight themselfs, while they drain all of your mana like a vampire, compared to just big Chimeric bees.

Durphymcbob

Yeah but at the same time the hive of hives is kinda rushing to the point where i expect the phantom bees would go "CONSUME ALL MANA" by trying to strength the hive of hives mana to be able to make legendar teir immortal bees. And i dont think that is the kind of thing that can just be waved off by making alot of mana honey.

Durphymcbob

As for Reason why the bees would pick Chimeric Cuckoos - They know about cross pollination with flowers, but know that it cant happen with bees of differnet base species like the bumbles or butchers. They could see it as a way to do so. - They could want to continue focusing on their orginal goal of the immortals. - They figure out that they could make Queenless hives for them with Broodmothers and Ministers. - They get turned off by the possible greater threat of the Phantom bees potentianally killing the entire hive if the mana gets to strong, like they are trying to with the immortals. -they figure out that if the parasites do go rouge the chimerias would be easier to handle instead of the phantoms which would live with-in the mana hive-mind itself. -The bees just dont want to be pocessessed. -Out of the two parasites they want to tak eone one with less risk.

Thatguy92_

I do tend to agree that parasites are an implicit threat no matter what you do with them, but i have two main issues. 1. Phantoms would effectively stand in for immortals, barring instant death or things we dont know about yet, there is no functional difference between a bee protected by a Phantom and an Immortal, they are both undefeatble until the hive runs out of mana, now we seem to disagree on what hive mana is as i just beelieve its ambient bee type mana generated, used, and controlled by a hive of bee type monsters thay essentially acts as an electrical network to power bee stuff whereas it seems you view it as inextricably tethered to the hive-mind itself which is something i cant get my head around and wont try to since there's no evidence disproving either interpretation. But regardless of what hive mana is as long as its there neither an immortal or a possessed bee can lose for the sake of fighting against the Hunger. Sidenote; the legendary options all seemed insanely expensive and all of the other dungeon masters seemed to believe Belissar is no where near getting one so i dont think its a present concern. Side-Sidenote; consodering how similar the effects of being protected by a phantom and being an immortal are i cant help but wonder if its an evolution evolved from Phantom Ministers or something. 2. We see raw mana and spells used to fend off against things that consume mana all the time, case and point, the Hunger. Mana.can clearly be used to fend off against things that consume mana, especially when formed into spells which it naturally seems to do when given a purpose even if the mana user isnt a spell caster. It seems to me like you think the Phantom Cuckoo bees have some higher authority over the hives mana than the bees that generate it which will far outnumber the phantoms in Belissar's tower which i just refuse to believe. It feels impossible for me to imagine a reality where the hive of hives united by one goal would simply be unable to resist or fight back against what would be a weaker entity trying to consume their mana. Lastly the description just implies something bad could happen, not that it would, and it seems to me like an individual bee's mana reserves and the hive's mana are two different judging by everything we've seen and learned from spellcasters and dronecasters. Losing all the hive's mana would be bad but we have nothing suggesting it would kill all the bees instantly and i dont think Belissar would let them starve seeing as Niobee can focus the tower's mana into him to allow him to casts spells at volume's beyond his means and with that he could make enough honey to feed them at least until they get back on their feet, after all the flowers still have all their mana. I do think the chimera are better in every way personally and the Phantoms are more risk than they're worth, but whats most important is which one's better, its which one would be more plausible for the hive of hives to pick within the context of the story. Unless the bees can view the Chimeric Cuckoo Bees with the same curiosity and potential as cross-pollination, there's no reasonable arguement from the bees or Belissar's perspective to pick them over the immediately and continual all stats up that is the Phantom Cuckoo Bees. Perhaps the Fair Folk, Spiderkin, or Karnuq have seen phantoms or chimeras and can offer some insight but if those creatures dont function like their bee counterparts that advice would be worthless.

Durphymcbob

(Thanks for the back and forth enjoying it :D) 1 - While Yes any Phantom bee possessing lets say a soilder bee would not be killed if the soilder bee dies, the soilder bee themself would be killed its just the phantom bee itself that survives as they just hope thru the hive link to a differnt soilder bee orginal soilder that was killed is dead. The phantom bees just buff and control the body of a bee they puppet. And yeah the Mana Hive Mind itself is a bit of headache to try to understand we all have our own headcanons on how it works. I see it more as the combined ambent mana of the workers in a hive along with the manapool of each individual bee itself all linked together via the Mana Hivemind. 2- While Yes the Hive of Hive defentily would be able to fight back if the Phantom bees do go "ABSORB ALL MANA" it probably would come at a cost, the phantom bees would have to be directly connected to some queen and the hive of hives itself in a way since they techically feed on it. They could break it off it would be like cutting off a leg to prevent the rot from spreading, thou they could theoricially heal from it, i dont see it happening without alot of normal bee deaths as their Mana pools get drained out completley by the phantoms. and as monsters they need mana to live if they lose it all they die. And i dont think htye can feed on just ANY mana it has to be the mana of a hive so i dont htink other kinds of mana could prevent it, mitigate damge yes but their would be alot more loss.

Black Esper

I still think the cuckoo bees are no good choice. The Tower is not a natural environment where the cuckoo bees take over and other hives are not concerned. The very structure of the Hive of Hoves makes them extremly vulnerable for parasites. They would ge good in the cleared outside territory to take over hives of wild bees, but does Belissar do something with his cleared territory?

Lisa

I agree with Durphymcbob here. The phantom bees might be effectively immortal, but their host bees are not. Yes, the host bees would be strengthened, but the phantom bees would happily abandon the host bee to death at some point. Another problem is that the phantom bees are designed to grow/evolve at the expense of the host hive (kill the hosts by eating all the mana at once). Can they be ordered not to? Maybe, but instincts can overcome intent. And even if they can hold back from doing so, would that cripple their ability to evolve? We don’t know. A problem I personally have that might or might not occur to a medieval peasant or bees is that possession and puppeting might not be much better than death. If a phantom be possesses Beero, is she still going to act and think like Beero? Or would it be Beero’s body but a completely different personality? The bees do have specific personalities and behaviors. If those go away when possessed, IMO the bee is as good as dead. There are a lot of very real risks with the phantom bees. And the hive of hives has plenty of examples of how beneficial combinations of traits can become. Cross-pollination, the hybrid bees, Beero evolving to a battlecaster because of converting fire and lightning, and so on. The chimeric bees can create new evolutionary lines and split them off into new hives easily. All the bees are taking honey from 1of5, so the chimeric bees would be acting like the rest. There is no need for a chimeric queen to kill another and take the hive, so ordering them not to won’t cost the chimeric bees anything. So the chimeric bees will fit right into the hive of hives with no risk of killing other bees. I feel like this is similar to the choice of assassins or berserkers. Berserkers were more powerful, but assassins fit much better. Chimeric bees are a better, much less dangerous fit for the hive of hives than phantom bees.

Lisa

The phantom bees seem far MORE parasitic than the chimeric bees to me. Chimeric bees have other queens spend honey to raise their children. The hive of hives already shares honey. The phantom bees posses other bees, use them as puppets, and only evolve by killing the entire host hive. I have a lot more trouble seeing them working with the hive if hives without hurting them.

Thatguy92_

I feel like at this point it's a matter of text interpretation rather than any arguement I've made. "If they are hit, they can use their mana as a shield, avoiding any physical damage until their mana is spent. In a pinch, they can lend part of these abilities to host bees" - the phantom bees are not effectively immortal and that has never been my claim, the phantom bees can use use their mana (which would be the hive's mana since that's what they feed on) to delay the death of an individual bee. While not possessing a bee they're actually at their weakest and since their main enemy is the Hunger i dont think being made of mana makes them any more resistant to its attacks. Simply when they are possessing a bee they are very hard to kill, when they aren't, they aren't. "This relationship, however, only lasts until the hive has gathered enough mana for the phantom cuckoo bee to evolve further, at which point it will consume all the gathered mana…regardless of the consequences for the host hive." - Its great that you brought up the berserkers because they help make this point, the descriptions can say die, it can also say kill, and it can give the dungeon master an accurate depiction of negatives like with a mana storm and fairy grove. If evolving phantoms outright killed bees it would just say that, it has no reason not to and if it does but doesn't say that then its a wicked inconsistency that wouldn't make sense. With that, its safe to assume that althought it is bad for the host hive, it does not kill the host hive's bees when the Phantoms evolve and any other interpretation is completely unfounded. Next, throughout the hundreds of chapters we have seen bees put off evolution for hours up to weeks in order to do it at a more convenient time or concern for what they may become. If every bee can do it, mundane or otherwise then i highly suspect a creature familiar with mind mana would fail. No creature has ever been hurt or set back in any way or lost the chance to evolve because they decided not to on a certain occasion. Once again i feel like saying the Phantom Bees kill the host upon reaching a certain unknown threshold of mana is speculative at best and saying that may cripple them is completely unfounded. Additionally the only time we have seen bees lose to their instincts is when defending Belissar which can be considered tantamount to their goal as dungeon monsters. And lastly for this bit, the bees of the tower have been resisting their instincts since the firstborn was born so a reality where Belissar's bees lose to their insticts is antithetical to the story in addition to practically never happening. I mean thats more a philosophical concern which likely wont interest the bees, if it acts like a bee and feels like a bee i dont think they care much beyond that point. I really dont think Belissar is considering the ship of theseus especially since hes never even seen the ocean. The phantom Bees possess the host's mana not their mind but it does say they control the host's actions while possessed so i can see where you're coming from. Cannot see where you're going though, the possession isnt permanent and death is so if the phantom bee just leaves or possesses a different bee then theres no reason to believe the personality would be gone. If that ends up being how it worked, no offense but that is one of the worst narrative choices in including possesion to a story and a uniquely bad and uninteresting choice that ive never seen another author make. I'll say it again, i think the chimeric bees are better in every way period. Ill say it again, its not about what i think is better its about what is plausible for the bees to pick Ill say it again, if the bees can realize the similarities between chimeric bees and Pollination is would make the most sense for them to pick the chimeric bees, and if they dont make that connection i think Phantoms would make more sense. They're parasites, if you're going to argue they can defy the dungeon master or succumb to their instincts then saying they, "will fit right into the hive of hives with no risk of killing other bees" is either a slef contradiction or a lie, need i remind you first what a cuckoo is and second that the chimeric bees description says it can kill and queen to take her hive. Mana Honey contains mana, which phantom bees eat and in multiple monster bee descriptions it it mentioned that mana honey reserves can serve as or in the place of hive mana meaning there is no reason the phantoms can't eat honey, they're literally an evolution from mana-eater bees why wouldn't mana honey be a valid food source. And lasly for this bit, not letting the phantoms kill a hive doesn't lose them anything either, i really dont know what you're talking about here, plus parasites can't exist without a host so killing bees can't be the main goal of either species unless you want to argue they're severely suicidal. I think Belissar has reached a much more mature state than he was in when he picked those option and i think he'll allow the bees to perform their best as long as their sacrifices arent worthless and avoid sacrifices at all when they arent necessary. Personally i believe not picking berserkers held the hive of hives back by a good bit (Vinoi notwithstanding) they're always just stronger and tougher monster bee soldiers and whenever sacrifice is inevitable they make the most of it plain and simple, not only do they align more with Belissar's curret worldview in my mind they're also more synergistic with other monster bee species (Bumblebees are already tough and stingless and butcher bees already fight in melee) other than honeybees whereas to our knowledge so far assassins aren't. Both bees are dangerous because they are parasites, there is no such thing as a safe and healthy parasite, neither bees pose mortal harm to the hive of hives or even minor harm so i believe arguing the danger of them as a postive or negative towards why they should be chosen is silly. Last thing here, i took a break while writing this and remembered two things. Firstly we have no eevidence that losing mana poses and mortal harm to creatures that can regenerate manan its actually quite the opposite. When Belissar and beero were training being out just made them tired and they could regenerate it naturally and the only reason drones died was because they couldn't regenerate or hold mana and once they could they could breed and much as needed. Monster =/= mana dependant and out of mana =/= dead there is evidence directly to the contrary throughout the series, in fact the monster bees of this tower survived off of mundane flowers and added the mana themselves, clearly they will be fine without mana for a moment. The other thing was an idea i didn't post, but really the bes option here is to close the selection menu and do all of this later. The hive of hives is still technically in a civil war, a part of mediation between two nations, the host to multiple god's avatar and a demigod, fresh out of one of potentially its most dangerous purifications, actively planning and doing at leas 10 different projects, and still behind on honey production and coordination. What the hive of hives needs right now isn't a bee, its to focus on what they have now and lock the hell in, so if we're even mentioning what's the best choice its to maximize their options by not picking anything yet and tighten up they their base so they arent spread so thin.

Durphymcbob

Been doing some research on Cuckoo bees, because I am to invested in this story :p. Apparently cuckoo bees do not have a worker caste at all. While I can see magic and evolution in eusocial hives giving them the abilty to raise soilder caste bees to help "control" the hives they conquer. I don't think they will be able to lay worker, gardener or even honeypots. As Apparently cuckoo bees do not have pollen baskets at all and do not gather at all. They can drink nectar from a flower but that is about it. They cant make hives or gather. Even the "queen" cuckoos that do force out or kill a queen only raise fertile bees. But in exchange they are usually more built for actual combat thicker chitin and all of that. Honestly i could see a monster bee hive and a normal cuckoo hive in the wild be symbiotic for just that reason. Most monster bee hive probably dont have acces to soilders only workers. While monster cuckoo bee have access to soilders but no workers. A monster bee hive willing takes in a cuckoo queen and cares for and raises their and cares for the cuckoos in exchange for the soilders defending them. I mean monster bees are generally alot more intelligent they could come to deals like that.

Ariamaki

I think there's two ways to look at this: > The phantoms have a lot of interesting parallels to the zom-bees and could make a sort of 'body and soul' dual hive situation, although the mana regulation would probably take a lot of work. > The chimeric cuckoos could NEVER ask for a more target-rich environment than the Hive of Hives, so if anybody could raise them into a useful standalone species without harm it'd be Our Boy B.

Drake Phyre

If they get the phantom bees they can possess the solitary bees like the carpenter bees and help link them into the hive of hives. Turning the solitary bees into a coordinated hive same for the hive of the fallen. Pariste becoming symbiote in the process.

Vic Bam

TFTC! I think the phantom bees will be the best fit since they can empower all other bees. Yes mana intensive but I don’t remember the hive ever lacking for mana but they have been lacking strength! Also, I want Beely to be more confident and decisive.