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[WIP][RPO][AddOn10] Develoment continues - (Patreon)

Published:
2022-05-03 00:01:20
Edited:
2022-05-11 22:19:23
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

Hello everyone.Hapy May to you and thanks for being here!Nothing greatly exciting today, but here goes. Just to let you know that my new global settings menu for RPO is pretty much finished and only needs testing, so I am back to working on the new add-ons full force. The first focus is AddOn 10. 

------[AddOn 10 Description] - The Plan ----------------------------

I'm partly going to be repeating stuff I already said when announcing the module, really. It is still too early for me to say exactly how things will go.First, I'll quote myself from some time ago, about my hopes for this add-On:

Any [...] combination of orientations and identities should be equally representable and impactful through this system. When I mean 'impactful', some examples: Don't expect an Aromantic sim to ever gain romance points, and do expect to see some new relationship types. A sex-averse asexual won't be jumping on every chance to woohoo, quite the contrary, and will react accordingly. A Sim strictly attracted to women will stick to that attraction and not see it change randomly, unless that's what you set. Etc etc.

    I am still calling it an 'add-on' at this time because at the moment I am not trying to make 'coming out' aspects and etc, once again, I'm not here to re-make existing works etc etc. If you all express a need for more gameplay of this type, it can also be considered for later, provided that nobody else is doing it.

This is still the idea I am going by at the moment, and I will try to push the 'gameplay impact' as far as I can in terms of affecting existing game parts!------[Preview] Prototype of Selection Screen Series -------------------

For now, I have very little that I can actually screenshot and show, as I am working on creating and setting up a bunch of code instances and not yet on connecting everything or making moodlets or any such.

But to begin, I can show you the prototype for orientation & identity choices.

****

As promised, Sims will be able to define gender identity, romantic attraction and physical attraction. This is done 'all at once' through a series of windows that lets you make the decisions (at least for initial selections).The windows follow each other automatically until everything has been gone through. They go in this order:

1- Gender identity

2- Romantic attraction - experience

(2.5- If "Aromantic" is selected, depending on how things get put together there might be an additional prompt asking about openness to form relationships and of what type - we'll see)

3- Romantic attraction - targets

4- Physical attraction - experience

(4.5-If "Asexual" is selected, an additional prompt asks about the Sim's attitudes and feelings regarding woohoo on the personal scale)

5- Physical Attraction - targets

Here is a preview of the prototype. 

Disclaimer: TEXT NEEDS WORK and some text and options are STILL MISSING. Once I have a 'finished' version of the text, I will also run it by the community for review, as some of this I am more strongly familiar with myself, and others not as much. So no need to freak out about exact wordings just yet as I'm still just focusing on the code right now!  :)

NO ICONS YET as I haven't made them yet. Had some random one in that I covered in the screenshots.

For subsequent selections (ie making a change to a Sim's orientation and / or gender identity), it will possible to re-do the whole thing as above or to change just one aspect instead - this will also affect 'cas gender settings' if I can make it safely. If a change made impacts many other aspects, though, something more might prompt up in case the specific situation doesn't lend itself well to fully automatic shifts.

-------- Gameplay Notes ------------------------------------------------------- Gender preference will correspond to the choices made above and not float around unless you choose for a Sim to not know for sure. So Sims will behave according to their orientations. Flirting with a sim who is not attracted to one's gender will most certainly result in failure and a message explaining why.- Aromantic sims n't gain romance. They get new relationship types & metrics instead, if they're interested.- Asexuals get different reactions to WooHoo depending on the polarity of their feelings re. woohoo. Chances of refusing to WooHoo will also be affected accordingly and therefore be variable even across asexual sims, as it is in real life...- Sims will be able to ask and tell each other about all these aspects regarding themselves, and react depending on if the combination seems fitting or not.

---------- Questions FOR YOU ---------------------------------------

- I have been debating whether to include a "pronoun" choice window or not, considering IT WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING other than have Sims be able to ask and tell each other their pronouns. Because of that 'cosmetic only' aspect and the EA team working on a pronoun update, I don't know if I should put the work in this. What do you all think?- Auto assignments! How do you feel about that? I've been thinking I will make an OPTION to have some sims in the world be assigned various identities / orientations etc. I would probably look at real life percentage estimates for default numbers and inflate them a little because I imagine they're lower than actual numbers. Should this auto assignment apply only to NPCs, to played and NPC? EDIT, Just to be clear this would be fully customizable in terms of numbers etc and so on various levels. I'm only talking for default numbers above. EDIT 2: Shared some prototypes of the types of settings there would be HERE.--------- Current Status ------------------------------------------- As far as the 'cosmetic aspect' of things, ie, visible traits, etc, all of them exist already (so technically at this point I can already assign whatever I want to my sims and see it in their traits). But these visible markers do near to nothing at this point as I am still working on making the gameplay impacts and have not yet connected these impacts to the elements that they are affiliated with.- Aromantic sims already have said goodbye to romance points. Frank had to give a second look at my code because I was stuck on this, so, thanks Frank for explaining my mistake.- I have some reactions and refusal to woohoo half-prepared.- Side note, some things I make for this are vaguely similar to things I'll use for the WooHoo Drive addOn, whose main metric I have therefore also been working on at the same time.

This will still need a TON of work so don't get too excited. I expect to finish it this month because really, this isn't supposed to be an insane add-on in terms of added gameplay, but to be more focused on altering existing gameplay. But DO NOT take this as an 'official release date' or whatever else. I'm just chatting my feeling and that's it. We shall see!!

*****Feedback is more than welcome.Especially because no lone person can know all or represent all of the LGBTQIA+ community, so I NEED your feedback so that we all feel that things get done right :DAnd if this all looks like already a disaster, I need to hear it now, so do be honest with me :)I will throw a post out for our higher tiers to make some suggestions, probably sometime later this week so I can keep it all in mind.I'll show more progress either next week or mid-month depending how fast and nicely things are shaping up.Bye for now,Lumpinou

Files

Comments

nikkinvin

I love everything about that module. I‘m so goddamn annoyed by (for an example) gay male Sims, who react positive to a woman flirting with them and respond that. It would be SO goddamn gorgeous if Sims would finally react more realistic. And to your question about pronouns: I don’t need that in this Module. Because as you said, EA is currently working on a pronouns system. But that’s just my opinion ☺️

TripToTheMun

This addon looks like it'll be great! I have a feeling I already know the answer, but will this be compatible with the WW attraction system? It would be nice to use WW's options to define the body type but then this mod to define sims sexual and romantic attractions instead of having them grouped together as an "if sims are attracted to no beard and thin body, then they will want to date/woohoo with all sims who have no bear and a thing body" or whatever. I think if the pronoun option is really just a social interaction without any bearing on pop-up messages you should just focus on the other aspects of the mod first. It seems a bit unnecessary, especially with the pronoun update whenever that comes out. Also side note - I wrote in the comments of an update post that my sims were constantly getting pregnant. I would've responded to your reply but I was busy working on finals and didn't start playing again until now. The issue was fixed with the next update I installed even on the same save so everything worked out!

nikkinvin

Oh yeah, important point! I forgot to mention Wonderful Whims. I agree 100%. Thanks for saying it 👍🏻

lumpinou

I knew you'd all ask, and the answer is: depends on whether or not Turbo wants to do integration and how much of it. My priority would be for ace Sims to not get super sexual attraction related messages from Turbo's mods but once again that would only ever happen if Turbo shows interest in the idea of integrating on that. Too early to tell, first I must have a finished work and then I can ask him and see if a compromise can be reached or not. And it's ok if not, I don't want any modder to ever feel obligated to integrate

lumpinou

Thanks! Glad you agree on that! And yes I am very confident that Sims will indeed react properly when all this is done. Tomorrow I should start running some tests on my 'romance refusal' systems for these cases and will be more or less sure then!

TripToTheMun

That makes sense, I hope it works out that they're compatible but it's understandable if it doesn't. Either way, I'm very much looking forward to this! Thank you for all your hard work!

Pepperam

I agree with the others that pronouns don't need to happen in this module as EA works on their own pronoun update. I also want to add that I'm so glad that you added the "woohoo adverse/indifferent/positive" options for asexuals, I really vibe with that! I hope it'll be better than the EA unflirty trait.

nikkinvin

Ohhh I‘m so happy to hear that 😍 And I want to say that I absolutely adore your mod. Thank you so much for your hard work and all the effort you put into your mods 💚

lumpinou

Imo that's such an important part of asexuality / representing asexuality... And perhaps the least well known, which causes people to thing celibate =asexual and vice versa, which, of course, is not accurate. I hope so too 🤣🤣🤣

Mahaganee Patterson

I don’t you need to add the pronouns EA has their own that they’re working on but I do like the new WooHoo options.

Kereine

This looks like a lot of fun and a good way to make inclusive sims. I agree with the others that pronouns aren't needed right now until we know what EA is doing with that.

Beth Brown

My goodness! This is a lot. Thank you so much :)

moonlightsimmer

Hi Lumpinou, thanks for the update! I was wondering if it's planned in the add-on for certain attributes to be taken into consideration for romantic and sexual attraction such as physical appearance and traits or will it only be gender? Thanks.

Kelele-Malaika Marsh

I like the idea that sims can have relationships that make sense for them. I love the mod will have an LGBTAIQ aspect.

Marta

As demisexual, I really love and appreciate this, so thank you so much! About the pronouns I don't think you need to add it but I love the auto assignments idea, specially for NPCs, it will add more variety.

lumpinou

Hi! I am not making an 'attractiveness system' here. Turbo already has a physical attraction system. The day I make an attraction system if ever, it would not have to do so much with physical aspects or only of them. But here it's not what is happening, as that would be a different module / add on altogether as it's no little task. Here it is more about giving Sims orientations and identities and applying the consequences of that in whether Sims can be compatible or not to have romance etc etc Hope that makes sense!

Wendy Hubble

I don't think I would worry about the pronouns because you might have to revamp everything when EA comes out with their own version of this. I am god in my sims games, so I don't have auto anything on. I am sure this will be a feature that others will appreciate though.

Yahna Reid

Hi Lumpinou! With the way pronouns are in the game now, and since EA is working on them already, it would kind of be a waste (even though I really want they/them pronouns NOW, lmao). Auto Assignments, YES! I had a mod I used for this a long time ago but it never actually worked, since the sims were still able to be romanced by anyone. I want Brent and Brant to REFUSE my flirty, romantic cishet female sims. Thank you for what you do for this dumpster fire of a game!

Sis

I wouldn't do anything with the pronouns. I would like the Auto assignment feature. But I also would like to set my own percentages if possible. I think everyone plays the game different, and to be able to choose how they want that to happen would be best. Your default could be real percentages like you had said.. But, If that is to much coding, don't worry about it, just do whats easier for you. Keep up the great work <3

Sam D.

I'll think about this more, because there's a lot to think about here, but I did want to first off suggest that if you decide to "auto-assign "identities" to any sims that players should absolutely have control of the percentages. PLEASE do not assign percentages based on "real world" percentages, as a core feature of play for many of us in the LGBTQ world is being able to create a queer sims world where queer identities are the norm not the minority. I know MCC has various population features that allow assigning percentages (and maybe WW too), so this should be possible. Please please don't force a recreation of heteronormativity. I know you would make it "optional" but the choice shouldn't be heteronormativity or nothing.The option should be for percentages or don't do it at all.

lumpinou

Let me preface by reassuring you. Because this being made to be an on / off option to begin with means that the exact percentage of assignments is also fully customizable. :) Heterinormativity, cisnormativity and allonormativity is what almost all of us have to live with and therefore some players (yes, even within the community) will want to represent it and I believe it should be representable in game as much as different realities should be - it's just to be up to the player and nobody else's business if they prefer to play with a more realistic approach or a less so one. The same way that some players want to have all Sims be happy about having babies and some want it to be more realistic and have variations. It's not for me to judge either way, what I do is give them the choice to decide what options they want. But I will explain more here about the general difficulty with numbers (and also why mccc is not an apt comparison.) Percentages of miscarriages, percentages of Sims who don't want to be pregnant, percentages of std's in the world, etc etc, there s lots of those -. It is Extremely difficult to balance. On some things, I can make it a choice (like std in the world percentage and such), and on others I can't, because it depends on how it's to be integrated in a gameplay context and I don't do things the same way as mccc at all for the most part. This because my mod is a gameplay mod while mccc isn't and is therefore mostly pure script. For example for miscarriage, the way I use various criteria and gameplay things in that makes it that choosing an individual risk base is not something I can easily make a setting, so it isn't. It would take a ridiculous bit of script to achieve this while the tools are already there to do it reliably through tuning, and mccc doesn't take into account this sort of multiplier madness that I use often so even there this kind of madness isn't found. Which is why our approaches are often different - the goal is different. (side note miscarriage overall chance IS still customizable through a sim by sim metric; its not 'not there' its just 'differently there') Because of that, normally, what I do is take real life stats and increase them by x1.5 to x2 depending on what we are talking about. And if it's possible to make numbers adjustable, it is made so. But normally my defaults revolve around real stats, because mostly people ask of me as much realism as possible. It is not an attempt to support what reality is like even when I do that. But I do need to have a number for everything, so, I do my best. Just to explain where I get the 'reality' s numbers ' thing. It's not in support of reality, but more because I do need to have basé numbers, I do need to fetch them somewhere, and one of my modding principles IS realism, so that's how that comes together. But once again, on this particular case there is full customization. Because it is meant to be scripted to begin with and does not involve multipliers or metrics that are individual to each single sim etc etc. It is a simple simple script matter and so, fully customizable. :)

lumpinou

That's been in my module 8 which came out quite a long time ago haha

lumpinou

As for other feedback you will have, I will be looking forward to hearing it! Thanks for taking the time, means a lot

sean murphy

love love your mod , im so glad you made it , i will love to see in the future figthing for custedy from parents that arent together , like one nigth stand thing she got pregnant and now he figth her for the bby , that would be so cool

lumpinou

They should see the option under 'actions' so long as they had a baby together. If they don't have a relationship, they won't see them in the normal menus but normally it should be there under 'actions'

lumpinou

I took some time after this to think on exactly what auto assign options could be and make some mock-ups. I came to share so you can share feedback if you so wish. SO for example I would be perfectly able and willing to make all these options, and more https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/893576838348173343/971153826579103744/options_idea.png Once again, I wrote this in super quick just to show what it could be like so the text s probably quite poor. I am not a native speaker of English and although my English is advanced, word connotation very easily flies over my head (that is very much an extremely advanced part of language), so exact correctedness of terms can be hit or miss here and there but I hope I didn't make any atrocious mistake.

lumpinou

Yes it would be customizable but exactly how or in what measure I haven't fully decided. Just 'assign anything to this %age of sims" does not seem enough to me. I took some time this afternoon to think on exactly what auto assign options could be and make some mock-ups. I thought I would show you here so you can send some feedback if you wish. SO for example I would be perfectly able and willing to make all these options, and more https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/893576838348173343/971153826579103744/options_idea.png Once again, I wrote this in super quick just to show what it could be like so the text s probably quite poor. I am not a native speaker of English and although my English is advanced, word connotation very easily flies over my head (that is very much an extremely advanced part of language), so exact correctedness of terms can be hit or miss here and there but I hope I didn't make any atrocious mistake.

Pink Sprinkles

Is there any eta on release? thank you for everything

CurlySim

AHH, so much excitement, no matter when it comes!! YAY! I think the pronouns should be added if the community feels they'd like to see it. I LOVEEE the autoassignment idea. Saw the link above you posted with your possibilities for percentages, etc, and I think that many options and different ways to customize that autoassignment is brilliant. Looking forward to the final product! Thanks for everything you pour into your mods for us. It's incredible and very much appreciated!!

Cheshire (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-21 21:00 This looks amazing and I'm so excited for it! I don't think you'll need to add pronouns since the Sims team is actively working on it. It just seems like more work for you that will be pointless soon. I noticed on your screenshot that "Biromantic" is just limited to two genders. Does that mean that they would only be attracted to male and female? Is the "Bisexual" similar? As a bisexual woman we get a lot of hate in the community saying that we're transphobic (including non-binary peeps) even though that is not the case. So it just makes me a bit uncomfy. Not trying to be dramatic, just looking for clarification.
2022-05-03 23:27

crittbo

Love love love the asexual representation!

Sis

Your English was fine, I honestly seen nothing wrong with it :) Wow! that is alot of options.. I would guess that is also alot of coding. Im not fully aware of all the different pronouns, so my opinion on this matter isn't the best honestly. I think what you have is great. I feel a bit overwhelmed by it all. Though, after using it I know I would get used to it and figure out what all I want set in time. Kind of like when I first started using WW, I was completely overwhelmed and then quickly got used to it. I feel like figuring out a good default with this addon installed will help with players feeling overwhelmed. Those that feel comfortable enough to mess with the settings will do so. You know what I mean? But I think it would be cool if somehow the traits play a roll in which identity they go with.. Not sure on how you would do that really, the only 1 that really comes to mind is non flirty sims are more likely to be aromantic or asexual type identity, but not necessarily.. like if they are already in a romantic relationship with another sim then they would not be chosen for that identity. That is a whole other mess of coding I am sure lol

lumpinou

Initially I put 'two or more' but I'm still pondering because most sources put it as just 'two' and pan as the other alternative. Bi Sims would get to pick genders they're attracted to, to 'bypass' this ambiguity but as I said up there, wording is not at all final and will be subject to razor sharp discussion etc when time comes :) for now I take note of your message. Wording is really tricky to 'get right' in any circumstances and almost turned me out of making these features at all. As for bi being automatically called transphobic, well, it would likely be stupid of anyone to call an entire chunk of the community phobic as a whole. I'm sure there's some phobic bi people as well as non phobic bi people and we can't just make massive generalization as to everyone in one shot. And there's trans people who call themselves bi, too. But all that would be another debate - just saying that wording will be hard to get to a 100% 'nobody can find fault with it' point, but thzt I will hope the community will help me to get it there or as close as possible to it. So, thank you for sharing your feeling on it

lumpinou

Agreed on the importance of having an acceptable default setting (and also clear explanations.) And yes it would be work but I think it may be worth it if people think this setup is acceptable. And yes unflirty trait can have influence but I think that would be it really..... As for auto assignments, I am going to keep things sane by not applying it to existing Sims. So only to new sims. And if they come out of cas as married, my system will look at that relationship and make sure that what it assigns does not go counter to the marriage. Of course for story reasons people might want a gay sim to be in a straight marriage and such but for those cases I would expect people to be not making it out of cas or if so, to adjust the auto assigned values of auto assigned was on.... Lots of stuff to see but early feedback here is critical as I am really trying to be careful of various points of views and life experiences in the community.... A tall order but it's comments from y'all that would make it possible :)

lumpinou

Oh my gosh, not rude at all, on the contrary! I absolutely need this! I want these wordings to be not just the product of my definitions and what internet research turns up especially on the stuff of it that I'm not personally involved with, but a collaboration with people! And of course I do not intend at all to suggest the bi community is automatically transphobic or any such thing. I think when I'm ready to get the text truly done, I'll gather suggestions for all of it and then do polls for every bit! And hopefully that will work out!

lumpinou

I try not to do estimates because they are always near impossible to keep. I am 'trying to get it done this month' but I don't want to make promises or sound confident on dates anymore. So, in the end, it'll be released when it's ready, but it's my main modding focus at the moment and therefore should see progress through this month steadily

SpiritSim

Loving this! I love the idea of auto-assigning identities/orientations, to both NPCs and played Sims. With pronouns being more cosmetic, I likely wouldn't use that feature too much personally. Super excited about aromantic and asexual respresentation!!

lumpinou

I'm glad most people agree that it would be a bit of a useless effort to do Pronouns considering the 'refer' mod exists and EA are supposedly working on it haha. And hm yes, ace and aro rep was honestly what was most capital to me (and at first the only part of things I was going to do even), that and (once I'd realized existing lgbtqia+ mods didn't do the following), making Sims actually act and react to romance in ways more fitting to their orientations, ie wlw Sims for example should probably not fall for every man that passes by. Excited to keep working on these goals

EleenaDume

Hi! As a biromantic person I too want to chime in here and give my opinion on the “two genders”-thing because that’s not really correct from the definitions bisexual/biromantic people use. I’ve seen someone else bring it up and I just wanted to give my two cents here too. Not trying to be rude at all, I know it’s confusing and complicated haha. (Also side note but massive thank you for uploading high quality images of the text.) I’m speaking here as someone who identifies as bi and has several bi and pan friends and has also done a lot of research on the topic because I, too, was confused about the differences when it came to anything beyond “both of these sexualities exist and are valid.” Sometimes pan gets used as a term within the bisexual umbrella as “attraction regardless of gender”—meaning for people who, specifically, don’t have a gender preference when it comes to attraction where bi people might or might not have one (I am attracted to people of all genders but have a preference for more female-presenting people, for example). This doesn’t mean that bi people always have a preference, or that someone can’t be pan if they do have one, it’s just one possible definition that people might use. Sometimes they’re seen as two separate but heavily overlapping sexualities and people just pick whichever term they’re more comfortable with. There is no one way which people define the identity especially in regards to how it differs from pan which is what makes it so confusing. Historically, bi has not ever meant “attraction to two genders and two genders alone”. The term “bi” meaning “two” is where that interpretation/confusion comes from but it’s incorrect. This article puts it very well and has a couple of excellent quotes if you’re interested in some additional perspective on the term bisexuality: http://www.bisexualorganizingproject.org/whats-up/bi-pan-and-the-insufficiency-of-prefixes The term “pansexuality” on the other hand only came into existence later than bi as means of challenging the gender binary. This in itself is not a bad thing at all, but with it came people claiming that bisexuals can only be attracted to two genders and that it’s a transphobic sexuality while pansexuality is trans-inclusive. Those problematic origins are why some bisexuals consider the sexuality in itself biphobic, since it was created to be the “better, more inclusive sexuality than bi” despite bisexuality already including trans people. That’s not really how the term is used today at all, and while it’s important to know these historical origins, I think it’s really problematic that some bi people use an outdated definition to hurt young pan people and make this into a fight despite our sexualities being very closely related. This is why I’m personally super happy to see both sexualities be included. If you want to differentiate the two in the mod, it might be cool to have an option for gender preference for bi sims to be more attracted to others who present in a feminine or masculine way, maybe via percentage, but that’s just my personal opinion, and might be good to have a poll on if it’s possible at all. In general, I think it’s important to recognize that there’s no way you will make everyone happy with whatever text you end up picking, because of how much the existing definitions differ. I think your idea of letting people vote and have input on the text is very good, and it’s important to remind yourself that even if you won’t be perfect at the end, you’re really putting in effort, and that means a lot to a lot of people, myself included :) As an aspec person I’m extra excited for that aspect :D Also I have a question, how do the sexualities work functionally? Is bisexual/biromantic etc. programmed as only including male and female as a default? Would for example attraction to females exclusively mean that they’d react negatively if a nonbinary or genderfluid person flirted with them? Asking because one common definition I see for lesbian is “attraction to non-males” and attraction to nonbinary people is often seen as being included in all sexualities. To answer some of the questions you asked in the post, I also think while pronouns would be neat it makes more sense to wait for the EA update and then once that’s out depending on how your genders function maybe find a way to connect them, but it doesn’t make much sense to include it now. And I, too, would love the option to randomize the sexualities of NPC sims and maybe played sims when I don’t feel like setting it myself ^^ In general it looks great so far and I’m delighted to see some of the less-known aspec sexualities (I’m demisexual myself so seeing that here makes my heart grow two sizes, and it’s also really great that you can pick the different kinds of relationships ace sims have with sex, I’m very excited). I always adore the mods you put out and this add-on might be the one I look forward to the most out of all of them, I’m super excited for it! Take your time and don’t push yourself, I’m certain it will be worth the wait :) I’m sorry, I know this is a lot, I hope that’s okay and I don’t come across as pushy or rude, I just know it’s a complicated and confusing matter and I just wanted to help. I had a very good bisexual history featuring pansexuality article at one point that I can’t find anymore, if you’re interested in that and want some more cited sources or have other questions, let me know!

Heidi Wilde

I will put my half-penny opinion, since you're gathering opinions, but I don't have any insight to share as what I know best is me, and I'm a hetero female. No big mysteries here hehe But I do like my Sims to have variety. What I hate is when I try and set them to be/try to figure out what they should be and they just all flirt with everything -.- So I'm very excited about the part of this that will stop them from doing that. I think options are always best (as long as it isn't too difficult to code), but I honestly don't think you should put too much time into the pronouns part since the Sims team is working on a base game update. Especially if, like you said, it's only going to be cosmetic. I think your time would be better spent on all your other wonderful ideas. I'm really looking forward to this add-on. :) It sounds like I will learn a lot from it too, so that's exciting.

TheeBaebarian

this is going to be awesome! I think auto assignment is important just as well as randomization. do you think this will/can be integrated with woohoo wellness/wicked whims attraction system?

Amber-leigh Beattie

Yes time x100000 to the option for automated settings… I am terrible at decision making and usually just end up picking the same stuff every time.. options for automation are a muuuuuust! :)

Shane Grey

Interesting ! I'd love the randomization for NPCs (I tend to know what I want for my own sims because I always have some sort of back story in my head when I create them). Will assigning a gender identity color the reaction sims will have? Example : PimpMySims4's LGBT mod has a bunch of traits and they were supposed to act that way, a lesbian sims for exemple would be uncomfortable flirting with a male and you'd get a moodlet, etc... They're not really active now so this hasn't really been implemented and everything is kind of cosmetic, aside from some traits. Would this add-on have an influence for WW user?

Sis

sorry have been busy and not able to get back to you.. anyways I will try to think more on the traits. Really I use alot of custom traits, mostly Chingyu pack of traits. Im not sure if alot of your followers use them as well, maybe see if they do, and if they do maybe incorporate it into your mod somehow? Im not sure if you could incorporate it, but also making it not a requirement. You know what I mean?

Sis

For the auto assignment, I really wanted the auto assignment to be for existing sims, but I understand why you would be doing it for newly created sims. But is there some kind of way to make it an option? Or is that a whole lot more coding? Can I set NPC sims manually? I want to clarify again, I am not well versed on my pronouns so my advice on this isn't exactly the best, I am really just asking about the different options for players more so than giving advise on what you should or shouldn't do with orientations or Identities

lumpinou

I think it is all complicated and confusing. Researching it has not been helpful or made it any easier since info is completely different depending on the source. For a long time due to previous research I've taken bi as being 'two or more' and pan to be 'any' - but for all I know that's either an outdated or local only definition, being that America's view on terms is not necessarily that of the whole world - and last week I read a lot of places saying 'exclusively two genders' for bi, so I changed my text accordingly. I must agree with you here very much that at this point, we have to recognize that these terms are simply not used universally to mean one specific thing and different definitions exist, making this extremely complex! Which is why I can't do it alone, it's not as simple as opening a dictionary haha. That's why I said it'd be suggestions and polls. And of course if gameplay needs adjustments accordingly, that be done as well. The mod does not assume what genders bi Sims are attracted to - they need to specify it themselves. So if you pick 'bi', then you will have to specify genders. There is another big difficulty. I considered to put 'non gender conformist / non binary / basically non cis' as possible option for attraction. But. I fear that doing so would look like reinforcing an idea that one must 'pass as nonbinary' and such. And that's a problem. All the same, I am talking about gender not simply as a physical thing but as an identity. And that is possible to feel attraction to a certain gender identity which is not in the binary model and not 'the third gender' as some would have it - which makes this an impossible riddle! So I don't know if I can safely add the 'attracted to non cis people' option. Also because of people who fetishize trans people and whatnot. An opinion on that would be welcome because I am very torn here

lumpinou

Yes, the whole point of doing this is so that Sims react accordingly to their orientations and identities. Any WW integration would have to be thought about only much later when everything is done. And then even if some intégration be possible, there would be no guarantee that it would happen. But for now it is extremely too early to even think about as it can't be determined until things are done

lumpinou

Any WW integration would have to be thought about only much later when everything is done. And then even if some intégration be possible, there would be no guarantee that it would happen. But for now it is extremely too early to even think about as it can't be determined until things are done

lumpinou

We have to keep in mind we are looking to have something work functionally here and not just cosmetically, and here I am a bit unclear on one thing you two wrote. For this optic, I don't really understand what you two mean about a 'percentage' at all and how it represents something in reality. Could you please re formulate and detail? My mod plan made it so that bi Sims must select genders they are attracted to. Meanwhile pan Sims don't choose anything, it's just implied everything is fine with them

EleenaDume

I do wanna point out that I’m not from America, I’m European, and at least in my country bi as “two or more” is also the common definition so it’s not an USA-local thing, that much I know. I of course don’t know exactly for which countries you found those definitions though haha One big question I still have right now would be which options are there to choose from for bi sims, since that’s a part that isn’t included here and that of course heavily influences how bi and pan work respectively. Regarding your question, the idea for the preference percentage would essentially be that bi sims can be attracted to two or more genders but possibly be more drawn to male or female presentation. I’m thinking of something similar to the Kinsey scale if you know what that is, and it’s related to how a lot of (but not all) bi people while being attracted to two or more genders might feel more drawn to people who present in a more feminine or more masculine way. Game mechanics-wise maybe you could have it work in a way that if someone prefers male-presenting sims, the romance bar with female-presenting sims moves up a little slower than that with male-presenting sims, which could for example stick with game default, and how much slower depends on how strong the preference is? The default percentage could be 50/50 for the bar to fill up equally fast for both presentations, and then you could move in convenient steps like maybe 10% or 20% in both directions? So a sim could be 40% attracted to male presentation and 60% attracted to female presentation and then their romance bar fills up a little slower with male-presenting sims than it does in the game regularly, or 10% for female presentation and 90% for male and then the romance bar goes up far slower for female-presenting sims than for male-presenting sims? Or if you don’t want to make it quite as complicated for yourself, you could just have extra options for bi that say attracted to male and female presentation equally & attracted to male and female presentation but more to female/more to male. And then adjust the romance bar filling up a little slower for one than the other? That’s the easiest way I can think of to make it affect game mechanics without being completely all over the place. If WW ends up being compatible with its attraction system, it could work with just more frequently finding female-presenting sims attractive or male-presenting sims attractive/finding one automatically more attractive than the other, but absolutely no pressure with including that. Otherwise an idea like this would be sheer impossible to do without implementing an entire attraction system into this mod, which would be far too much effort and which I’d never ask of you, hence the suggestion with the romance bars. Also I absolutely agree with what you and Chandra said about not adding an option to be attracted specifically to trans sims because that would probably be fetishizing and alienating to trans people, the question regarding how attraction to nonbinary sims works was really just because I’m not sure what exactly the options are you can pick when you choose who you’re attracted to/how the mod would treat specifically sims who have their gender identity selected as nonbinary if they flirt with someone who identifies as bi/gay/lesbian respectively.

lumpinou

I am European too haha. So 'amusingly', 'two or more' which was my original text, would have been more fitting than the 'strict two' that my research of last week yielded. This is exactly why I almost didn't do this module haha. It is very difficult. Percentages are partially usable. Partially because using the game's gender preference system, I can throw some of that in. But in other systems it might not work. I can't say what the better design shall be at this point for achievability. We are working with complicated things here and it is not simple to begin with and my system itself is not simple either. The work starts not with ideas of doing this and that (if it were that simple we'd have modded non object babies already), but with a vague sense of a purpose without precisely any strict wish on how to do it, and looking at the game and looking at what can be or cannot be achieved and building from there. The bigger difficulty is how the game's gender systems and my systems will interact and this shall hold many an obstacle or many a promise. As for romance bars, since you mentioned them, a little warning, they are always to work with very cautiously due to their stupid bilaterality... Any romance bar effect might be completely canceled out OR taken out in the opposite direction altogether if the other sim involved has multipliers in the other direction etc. So if we rely only on this, then there can be anti representation instead of representation. For this reason, romance bar impact is definitely not an end-all feature. This kind of stuff will be in there but it won't be all and can't be completely counted on. But all this shall depend on how things go as I progress -. To be very clear, I didn't mean 'attracted to trans people' specifically - just, in terms of romance, open to and in tune with specifically non normative gender identities (not all of which id as trans). Some people mostly non cis themselves will find it easier to fall in love with someone who isn't in the strict binary and cis, this having nothing to do with fetishizing. BUT because I am well aware of the problem of the fetishizing of trans people and of the problem of those who insist non binary is something someone should pass as, or is simply a third gender, this kind of feature likely would not sit right, which is what I was saying and I see that you two or three agree. So, if this doesn't exist, non binary Sims would have to be accepted by everyone. But some would argue that their physical appearance should then count because it would in real life. And that's a tough thing to address. And that's where another major pickle stands. For trans Sims as well, who I would want to count as the gender they identify with-. So the answer to your question of 'what reaction would Sims have about non binary sims', the answer is a bit of a 'I don't know yet'

EleenaDume

Yeah I absolutely get that, it’s a super messy and complicated topic and there is basically no way to make everyone happy. For what it’s worth, I absolutely admire that you’re doing this and I’m super thankful for you being so willing to listen and communicate with people like me. I’m sorry if I came across pushy in any way. I wasn’t even aware the game had its own gender preference system, honestly (I haven’t been around for a very long time and wouldn’t even know where to start with modding personally, although the idea very much intrigues me). It would be awesome if that could help make this work, but it’s fine if not! And yeah I can’t even imagine how difficult it has to be to work within the confines of this game and the rules the existing programming sets on certain things, it’s amazing that you’ve been able to figure out all the things you have. I didn’t think about the romance bar thing working both ways, that sounds very annoying to deal with :/ I was reading up on Road to Romance yesterday so that’s where I got the idea, but yeah it’s a moot point if it’s gonna go both ways. It was just the first thought I had in that regard as someone not super experienced with the game. At least I managed to get across what I meant with the percentage thing, sorry I wasn’t very helpful otherwise… And yeah it’s absolutely different that some non-cis people will find it easier to fall in love with other non-cis people because of both shared experience and also just generally feeling safer around them, which is also I think why some bi or pan people, ace people etc. might be more drawn to other queer people as partners rather than straight ones because there’s hope of a different kind of understanding of the issues and the different stereotypes that one might have less hope for when it comes to a potential straight partner. But that’s not so much to do with general sexuality and more with the likeliness of feeling accepted and respected and isn’t so much that someone is, say, attracted to bisexual or nonbinary people because of features, if that makes sense? I’d personally like it if nonbinary/genderfluid attraction was just included in all sexualities. Not letting one pick whether they’re okay with being attracted to nonbinary/genderfluid people does avoid the issue of fetishization of these characters to an extent because there unfortunately are people who get very awful about stuff like that :/ It would also avoid the risk of unintentionally enforcing the “bi is inherently more transphobic than pan”-stereotype if otherwise being okay with dating people outside the gender binary would be included in the pan identity by default but not in the bi identity. I know I ramble a lot, I’m really sorry, I hope I’m not being too annoying…

lumpinou

Not annoying nor pushy at all! And I still want to do sth with the romance bars, was just saying that it can't be all because otherwise it might even give messages in ways opposite of what is wanted, but paired with other things, this limitation would be less of a problem. The aspect of kinship and understanding etc playing into attraction is indeed not about sexual attraction but more related to romantic attraction, in which that stuff can definitely play a part - and being that romantic attraction is also part of this add on, that matter had still a validity that way. So, yeah, it's just complicated haha. (But yes I agree that I probably will prefer as well to just include non binary etc in everything.) Anyways, I'll try to take it one headache at a time, because as of now I am getting a little overwhelmed haha, and as always I start out thinking 'oh I'm going to do something simple and small' only to realize that I have devised some madness that will be nothing simple and nothing small 😂😅 but if the result is ok in the end, it'll be worth it. So, bear with me while I continue progress, as if I keep my calm and therefore my work focused on one thing at a time, hopefully I'll soon have more details on what I am exactly going to be able to do and how. Throwing some ideas in lately and testing things out but there are definitely some difficulties to overcome 😅

moonlightsimmer

Hi Lumpinou, thanks for responding back, I know you're still early in the creation process and that it won't be an attraction system but how would sim compatibility work would it just regard gender/ sexuality preferences to be attracted to another sim? Will our sims have a preference on specific sims they prefer so they don't flirt with everyone? Just brainstorming, thanks.

lumpinou

It works with it being solely about genders and identity and etc because It's not about attractiveness per se, it's about whether or not romantic or sexual advances from a sim would be something another sim would welcome or not in the very basic level of 'I am into this broad category of gendered traits or not'. We need not go deeper into detail because this is what the largest level of sexual orientation is about - what gender aspects one considers as would be part of a potential partner. To be clear: if a sim is not into women, and a female sim flirts with them, chances are they won't be married three hours later (in sim fashion). That's what it is about. To make Sims make sense in how they initiate and react to romance depending on their orientations and identities

moonlightsimmer

Thank you for the clarification. I know "attractiveness" is a term that misrepresents but that's how I interpreted it in sims choosing what types of sims they are attracted to based on preferred genders/sexualities. Looking forward to how that all aligns with the new relationship types for aromantic and asexual sims.

Heather

I'm so excited for this. I love the auto assignment idea and would also love that option for playable/active sims as well. Sometimes I prefer my sims make those choices on their own. I would also love the chance to make some of these choices (gender identity) when they are children if possible? Obviously romantic characteristics can wait until teen+.