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Episode 371: Cease to Exist (Part 2) (Patreon)

Published:
2024-04-18 13:26:12
Edited:
2024-10-11 00:15:13
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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Content

We finally visit CHAOS author Tom O’Neill at his place in LA to talk about the CIA, Charles Manson, the 1960s, and two decades of trying to put it all together. Part 2 of 2.

Check out Tom O'Neill's book CHAOS: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the 1960s here 

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Comments

RedJon

Foist

Dec

You were hilarious on Adams show Brace 🥰

Pash Vlahov

All this Charles Manson got me thinking about how he kinda served in that interview... We want an episode for the gays please!! 💅🥺💅💅 👄 It's time

Doug Cartel

Ride or Die? No no friend, Ride AND Die

b2b saas purveyor

while living in Greensboro NC back in the 90s I and a couple buddies were watching one of Manson's parole hearings on court TV and someone on the board asked where he would go where he released on that day, to which Charlie exuberantly replied, "ima goin' to Greensboro North carolina, man! I got a lot of friends there!". we, were, ofc dirtbag street urchins so we knew all of the old hippies around town and spent the successive week or so trying to figure out to which which local miscreants he was referring. maybe if they released them I'd have wound up in his cult, who knows

b2b saas purveyor

back when I lived in Greensboro NC in the 90s i & a few buddies were watching one of Manson's parole hearings on court TV & a board member asked where he'd go where he released on that day. Charlie exuberantly replied 'ima goin' to Greensboro, man! I got a lot of old friends there'

b2b saas purveyor

we, ofc being dirtbag street urchins knew all of the local hippies & spent a successive week or so attempting to discern to whom he might have been referring. who knows? had they released them then, I might become a member of his cult

Mark Owen

Bobbie Gentry is a real estate agent or something. Doesn't talk to press.

Grace

Just want to say I also thought Greta Van Fleet was a woman when I found out about them. I was on top of a mountain in fall 2018 and GVF rolled up with a photography crew and requested I move my (perfectly positioned) hammock. I was like dang these broads got style but they’re harshing my vibe :(

DaFunkBackToDaPunk

The Beach Boys rule. Surfs Up is one of the greatest albums of all time.

DaFunkBackToDaPunk

Of course, right after I type this, they mention how Dennis married a 15 year old… huh…

B

all I’m saying is the trashmen never would never

GolfBaller

Assisted suicide is legal in CA. My mom elected for it in hospice care last summer.

Quinn

Mandala?

Karl Childers

i like that mandela effect has now been mandala effected into mandala effect

shampooflasks

oh man i love that dictators brian wilson shit lol

bruce

The moment that really got me with the octopus murders series was where the one journalist describes the fake zapruder film LOL just came completely out of nowhere and I felt so noided

NYCM&AHole

I’m still very with Ed Opperman when it comes to Zachary Treitz and the other kid

Daniel Dresden

this pair of episodes is amazing. You could do ten of these and i wouldnt get tired of it.

Oliver Crane

I had some friends take me to a Wolfmother show ages ago, I mainly remember overhearing this conversation outside: Girl: I'd rather see Led Zeppelin, y'know? Guy: I'm not gonna lie, I'd see them, but it's not what it was. Girl (gesturing at the venue): THIS isn't what it was! This isn't even what it is!

Michael S. Judge

Hearing that Tom was in a room with Jolly West, I feel like the old Polish and Irish ladies at my childhood Catholic church asking me to help them pray for protection from demons, which they considered very unfunnily real. God damn that man scares the living shit out of me. That motherfucker lives in the house above the TWIN PEAKS gas station

Phillip Harris

Um what did Paul Krassner say to him?

Adub

Started reading this book yesterday, fucking rocks. Honestly a great read and hard to put down!!!! Would recommend to anyone. My poor husband comes into the bedroom, and I made him listen to my speculations about how Charlie could, a barely literate man who was institutionalized most his life before the murders know mind control tactics/MK Ultra adjacent stuff. Thanks for making me schizo ya'll. Also didn't really ever know about the second murder of the random couple in a house Charlie once lived next to.

Hal Warren

I think this battle for moral purity has already been decided. If you want to use what TrueAnon offers, look at what William T Vollmann says about us. The hysterics over this very fucked up phenomenon are at a fever pitch. A lot of the people in here fucked 15 year olds when they were 15. Age of consent is a contentious, complex issue. Don't buy into everything just because it doesn't fit your mold of what you might believe is right and proper. I say this as a victim of sexual abuse myself, from someone I trusted and violated that by doing something I didn't want and didn't fully understand. Maybe I was a late bloomer, but the only girls who put out in my area of the United States were Latinas, and the racism and class divisions created a lot of confusion around following those impulses. Many of them were abused too, and maybe got sexualized too young. This is a problem. It's not a problem if someone can attest that they have informed consent and know what they were doing. Hysterics just confuse them into thinking maybe it was wrong. Power imbalance is the main issue, to my mind. And yet these fucking podcasters still answer DMs on Instagram and shamelessly use their internet fame, despite copious discussions on here about morality. Heal from the wounds and seek a new paradigm.

Demented Avenger

Have you considered doing an episode on the sex tape blackmail schemes in general? You not only have Polanski and Epstein, but many others; Diana Dors springs to mind as hosting parties for these. You might get more illumination on Epstein if you zoom out and look at the phenomenon in general.

buttface

lol at brace whispering "mandela" after liz said "mandala effect"

aaron Thomas

Didn't Trent Reznor buy the tate house and turned it into a studio?

Natalie

damn interviewing jolly west is wild - I had a gottlieb hyperfixation after reading poisoner in chief and never knew about the pseudonym thing. so interesting

Victor

McGowan wrote a lot of bullshit in his book but he was 100% right about the Byrds being shit players

resident of beautiful princess island

screamed at the aberration reference - can't recommend it enough to anyone curious about the mcveigh / west connection. spends a good deal on west too. wendy painting is a rockstar writer and researcher

Karl Childers

apparently past truanon guest ed opperman has been talking mad shit about her? ngl his interview here was my only exposure to him, even back then dude seemed like a freak & not the fun kind

AfroCommie

The new theme song still nourished my heart immensely

CB

what’s the title of the netflix show they talk about?

R. Karchnyak

I just picked up Aberration, haven’t had the time to dive in yet but am looking forward to it. I saw reference to Opperman talking shit about her. Seemed needlessly personal and unnecessary to involve the public. I get the sense that Opperman’s quite prickly.

John

What did ed say about them ?

R. Karchnyak

Yes he did. What a weirdo. I never got the Manson obsession with some of those people.

J Fitz

The lady who owns a little thrift store in my neighborhood in LA dated Jay Sebring shortly before the murders

Tryg

Just saying - there are some of us old queens out here who know nothing about Holly-Weird, so I have spent the whole episode re-playing all the mumbled name-drops and googling people I really wish I didn't know existed. THANKS GANG!

resident of beautiful princess island

Lol I just looked at his twitter with her name. I had no idea he talked shit about her. Not trying to throw stones but sometimes people in this world get way too into their own head and like you said - prickly. It's not totally clear what his issue is to me, but if calling her a "liar" is in reference to aberration - i dunno, her reference list is pretty extensive

brandon

Fuckin stoked to hear he’s doing a follow-up book to Chaos

Hal Warren

Since we are talking connections, my landlord's partner was roommates with Tresfont Folgers III, whose relative was a victim in the Tate murders. It's amazing that with these crimes, we all seem to be connected to them, and somehow personally affected. That's how far the Octopus reaches...

James Walker

LOL at Brace whispering “Mandela” after Liz says “Mandala” effect!!

Evan Mathews

the octopus murderes on Netflix

Stephen

It’s the octopus murders

GOOBER

Fuckinggggg wolfwother

Ashton Fernandez

Y’all should do a series on the lebaron Mexican Mormons. Like the doc on Max

Blank

Liz playing three dimensional chess Mandala effect-ing the Mandala effect

tubularballs

tbh the "parapolitical" "noid" (losers) twittersphere are very obsessive and protective of her and so dogpiled ed to hell and back which i think broke his brain and he wigged out a little but ed will always be the man.

tubularballs

lol if course he knew "march of the pigs" etc

libra man

This isn’t Qanon?

Vinay

What was in the tape of Reagan's ex-wife??! Time Stamp 35:40

danny

the fuck are you on about

danny

Nancy "Sucks Dick Like A Muthafuckin God" Reagan take a wild guess

Casey

Bro-prah was very good Liz!

Vinay

Jane Wyman, not Nancy

Mark Owen

Glad you got in here with this. Much love to Gene Clark and i do like those first 4 Byrds albums.

Mitch

Only good 70s rock n roll reprise band is Sheer Mag

Gordon Schmidt

When I was watching Tarantino's film, I thought, just as I'm sure Deborah Tate did, "how could he portray Sharon's murder without being completely, totally, tasteless?" I was very tense watching those scenes of Sharon, dreading what was going to happen to this nice person. And of course the obvious answer was for him to cut the Gordian knot and avert the murder entirely. This echoes through the way he wrote Sharon in the film. She doesn't have any of the flashy Tarantino dialogue because she isn't a Tarantino character, she's a real person. Instead of talking about movies or old TV or whatever, she makes fun of her boyfriend for listening to a pop band and poses for pictures when people ask her to. She's a nice, normal person, as she apparently was in real life. Honestly it's kind of shocking Tarantino realized that was the right direction for the character, but hey, I guess he can do subtle when he really wants to.

J Fitz

His sympathy for Sharon is an inch deep and the movie is no less exploitative of her murder for trying to be cute about it

Hank

More like J Bitch

AbeLinkin

I love you guys. Great work yet again. ❤️

Michael Ouderkirk

Brian has probably never listened to the Dictators but I think he'd love "(I Live For) Cars and Girls"

Michael Ouderkirk

I get Greta Van Fleet mixed up with Grace Van Patten, who I think is just an actress, but maybe she's a singer too.

Knosnothing

Crazy how the documentary world is so close knit. They're talking about Errol Morris making that Manson doc but also about Chirs and Zach from the octopus murders. Apparently though Christian Hannsen has been harassing and trying to drag Hamilton Morris who is Errol Moriss' son. Also according to Hamilton Morris, brace was with him in SF the first time he tried pcp. Just find it really interesting how all these personalities intersect and the weird beef that starts coming up.

danny

oh i see, probably also giving crazy head. you have to assume that was important to reagan considering nancy’s reputation

John

Thats interesting. Someone was on here saying that the octopus guy was goin after hamilton morris online and i didn’t see anything. But now i know i guess. I wonder what the beef is exactly ?

Lala Kent

The guy who self immolated today was a trueanon subreddit member 🫢

Knosnothing

Apparently one of Hamilton Moriss' good friends overdosed on a dissociative drug and had a problem with them. Christian Hannsen and another reporter who I can't remember the name of have been claiming that the overdose is basically Hamilton's fault for one reason or another.

Antipaganda

I don't think you know what "no less" means.

Antipaganda

THE BURGER AND THE PEAS IN THE KNIFE

Antipaganda

Damnit, now I want to hear what Brace says about his extremely cool dad.

Antipaganda

Yep, named after Nalson Mandala, the famous South Australian Buddhist terrorist who later became president.

I am become reply guy

Liz saying the Mandala effect is an example of the Mandala effect

BuddieGuy

Did he say who is directing the doc? If he didnt, my wild guess would be Billy Corben

Anna

Errol Morris is making it.

Zachary Manenti

Inglorious Bastards is a total rip off of the incomparable Ernst Lubitsch 1942 film ‘to be or not to be’. Tarantino is a pomo hack. Liz makes an important point right here 45:48, Tate murders show the sweet and sunny turned nightmare, ‘dark,’ nighttime, shadowy—-the mystified sense of guilt, the paranoia, the bad trip of the California Dream-Myth, offshoot of the American Dream-Myth, to which I will add, the hippie generation iteration of what was already mythologically installed in Film Noir; however, as Mike Davis points out in City of Quartz, to the side of its image production revealing an internal division between a sunny and a chiaroscuro mythology, L.A.’s real underbelly, the material reality, is the ruthless white power grab by big business backed and funded by the US govt. From 1850-the present.

Zachary Manenti

BrOprah is sooooooooo good!!!!! Rogen as BrOprah. Genius. Says it all in one word.

Sir Felix Carbury

Anyone know the titles of the Beach Boys’ books he’s referencing?

Hank

His posts were the only good reason to go on that subreddit. RIP

BuddieGuy

I thought he was working on the film that they decided not to make

J T

Max Azzarello ep when ??

SF

Mandala effect

Shfifty_five

That's crazy. We're they there or did they know the deceased? Even if I was a journalist, that's a line I wouldn't want to cross unless I knew for sure and even then, it seems ambiguous. I know a guy from AA who blamed himself for a friends OD and it destroyed him. I dunno the situation Christian is referring to though so I guess I shouldn't judge.

Josh

Could have sworn it was Mandela effect!! Must be misremembering.

Mike

My favourite interview episodes in a long time, maybe ever

Anon Ibid

You use the same initials because everything was monogrammed back in the day

Chumbucket

If Greta can fleet was from Australia that would be fine. But they’re from Michigan

Micheline

This is my time to say Fleetwood Mac sucks

cogandbal

You know she can

The Children of Jack Acid

Dude, T. Rex is so fucking good. He let me know that stupid people can be amazing!

Gator lord

Guys, how can I get in touch with Tom? I left a vm on the tip line because I have a legitimate and insane family connection that he refers to that I am dying to know his sources for, archival or public record. My family never talks about it but I’m just blown away because I always thought their connection to Manson and Dennis Wilson was just tall tales- but O’Neill literally mentions the person in our family and I am hoping to get in touch with him to just see where to start looking on my own!

dan

wild that Alan Dershowitz is responding here on his alt account

FREUDIAN NIP SLIP

If someone (me) knows very little about the Manson case, what books should I read before reading CHAOS or can I dive right in?

Gordon Schmidt

You should email him about it, pretty sure all his contact info is on his website. Hope you get a response

Keir Nuttall

Dive right into CHAOS - it's incredibly thorough. Helter Skelter is written by the prosecutor in the Manson trials, so is pushing a particular narrative. O'Neill covers Helter Skelter, the prosecutor, and the inconsistencies in his bestseller. CHAOS offers a detailed examination of the Manson case from multiple angles with thorough fact checking.

Michael

You ever get a response?

gav

Everything about motorcycles rock except getting run over and the people who are into them

Michael

Man I wish he had finished his thought on that connection to Nancy Regan