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We bring Brad Phillips into the studio to talk benzo pandemic and benzo withdrawals. Then we track Jordan Peterson’s rise and fall from the perspective of a benzo fiend.

The Other Epidemic by Brad Phillips

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Soda enthusiast

I thought brace was going to step away from the podcast after his wife caught him cheating

Mungo Franczak

What up woke moralists who’s ready for their shift at the Chinese automated cock milking and semen extraction factory. (YC I feel you I also have these things just floating in my brain. What rules, you sons of bitches?)

Freaky boy

First they came for the paedophiles, and I did not speak up, because I was not a paedophile. Then they came for the Benzo addicts, and there was no one left to speak up for me…

mitchell

Just decreed my stately pleasure-dome

Mungo Franczak

Caught cheating with the intern that looks like an even more Israeli version of his wife

Mauve_Avenger

"According to a study I've done it's actually *gay* to get pussy..." - Jordan Peterson

Twerk dancer

Be honest: after reading that description, what's the FIRST thing that comes to mind? 😂

Jorge Jorgensen

Au Hasard Balthazar is the one true donkey flick

Joe D’grinda

My favorite deflating balloon philosopher

Salex

Respect the donkey!

Mark Owen

That donkey is a saint.

Galilayyo

I can't believe I'm listening to this donkey slander

kebby

as a distinguished veteran of the xandemic this one really means something to me

Salex

Benzos suck so hard. I used to be a nurse years ago, and doctors just used to whack anxious old ladies on it all the time and keep prescribing it over and over again. I just remember their pinpoint pupils and it messed with their neurological systems. Even slight withdrawals are gnarly. It honestly freaked me out. And later I had to take benzos myself for chronic insomnia and the doctor had to convince me to touch the stuff. I hated it.

WingsOfJupiter

If benzos are only taken at low doses and no more than once a week, it is a great way to reduce overall anxiety. As with anything, can't abuse it. Psychiatrists have to watch very closely how much their patients are prescribed and using and dont give in to prescribing for daily use or high doses. Just takes responsible psyciatry.

John Lemieux

I’m going to start a gender donkey drawn chariot service in Central Park

jer

Only 2 drug withdrawals can kill you: alcohol and benzos

Mersham

Her name is Hila Monster Penis

jer

This episode is insane so far. Nobody knows about benzo withdrawal?! Lmao and "its the wild west." Thats just so unserious

Mark Owen

SoundCloud rappers were into them? "You'd rather see, me in the pen, than me and Lorenzo, rappin' on Benzos..."

Peter

There are so many comorbidities of leftism with this guy, and I say that as a self-critical leftist. You have to take agency in your life and not blindly trust that other people have your best interest at heart. Be a little selfish because others are kind of thing. Agency is an antidote to anxiety.

Ant koz

Benzo wd’s give me sleep paralysis, very scary!!

Dr. No No No

Liz I love EO so much thank you for mentioning and defending it. It makes me cry though EO deserves the world

Allison

Relatable!!!

Blank

YC goated Jordan Peterson and yoda impression reveal

kayo

just started the episode. i’ve been taking klonopin since i was 12 or 13… hoo boy.

Loco Motive

You got me roflin' with this one buddy

PMG

"new kind of bottom surgery" took me out

Loco Motive

Brace is in fine form this day

John Lemieux

I’ve seen someone I care about have to go through Benzo withdrawals and I will say it was 100% the scariest shit even just to witness. The symptoms track exactly how the guest says

Reece Coren

Go Tamara! Go Tamara! Go! Go! Go Tamara!

Richard Cochnar

Raw milk straight from the tap! *slaps the Chinese guy strapped down to the milking table*

BG

B-Rad. After 19 *years* your doctor was pretty cavalier about tapering you off in just 3 weeks.

Jared Sarnie

Yung Chomsky had a really good eeyore impression and a sick Captain EO reference at the beginning of the episode, neither of which were acknowledged. But YC, I see you.

Frankie

#keepcominback? #1beerforeverystep

Frankie

#twelvebeers

Phillip Harris

Marked as safe from the Ethan Klein podcast

Travis Mockler

Felix doesn’t talk in this episode

Erika

Thank you for defending the humble donkey, Liz 🙏

Adrienne Graf

Thank you for your service 🫡💊

Adrienne Graf

“A woman you are” in Yoda voice goes CRAZY

Beast Law

What happened to JBP's daughter's Communist boyfriend 'possessed by a demon'?

Beast Law

What happened to JBP's daughter's Communist boyfriend 'possessed by a demon'?

tuff shed

hamilton morris crossover ep when

Rachel L.

Not sure why SRRIs are getting so much shit. There is no such thing as some "ideal" drug/dosage to treat any mental illness. While they certainly have their drawbacks I think they're relatively safe and can be extremely helpful.

Ben

If Felix was on the show, he’d name the ep “Deja Xanadu” as a reference to Brand New and Jesse Lacey.

RainDog

Having a chronic illness will completely radicalize you on the medical system. I had a period in my life where I lost my health insurance and the pit of despair you get when your longtime doctor refuses to give you the medication you need to live is crushing. I find it hard to trust my doctors now because I know they have no problem with giving me a death sentence if I cant afford to pay them.

Throwaway K

WHAT ABOUT THE NON BINARY DONKEY?!!! HE-HERERRR 🫏🫏🫏

LimeSelzer

Watch skin by kllhhr on yt

roland00

remember Jordan Peterson grew up in the middle of nowhere in the late 1970s. Fairview, Alberta aka less than 2000 people. 60 miles away there is a town of 60k people and 250 miles away there is a city of a million people. He is weird but his deal makes sense when you realize you live in the middle of nowhere in the 1970s as a teenager.

200 OK

I'm sure everyone knows this but WELL ACTUALLY: The phrase "there are cathedrals everywhere for those with the eyes to see" is a famous quote often attributed to the French artist Henri Matisse. It gained a massive modern surge in popularity when Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson posted it on X in March 2023 alongside a photo of light shining through an Evian water bottle.

Michael S. Judge

Have you ever heard a donkey actually sing? Not just one honk, but when the donkey's off the clock, and he just wants to sing? They go fucking BOZO MODE. They sound like Coltrane ’66

Michael S. Judge

No joke, I met a donkey who sounded like Pharoah Sanders

Frank Rossitano

The only place benzos belong is up my ass in the form of a suppository for pelvic floor dysfunction

Frank Rossitano

Have you ever heard of a psych prescribing only 4 benzo pills a month though, bc I have not

Luke

I was prescribed Klonopin from the age of 15 to 27. It was sure hard to kick, big respect to Mr. Phillips

Joe D’grinda

He should’ve been the pill head expert

Michael S. Judge

I don't know if it comes down to individual sensitivities or what, maybe reciprocal loops with mental illness, maybe ODs, but I've had to do alcohol, benzo, and opiate withdrawal, from very large amounts of each, and booze was generally feeling shitty for a while, benzos were awful and I don't remember a chunk of 2016, but opiates were a metaphysical hell beyond my furthest conceptions of suffering. A big part of my brain is still locked in there, and after 4 and a half years, I can't imagine getting out, and I can't remember what the fuck it was like to feel "normal" by my (or any) standards. Kicking benzos was bad, but when it was over, it was over; opiates have cracked me in a way I'll never be able to explain, and I have every reason to believe it's permanent

Robin Mulvihill

Those Blue-Collar Donkeys swing elections.

Keith

boomer gateway drug!

sean

,

J

In this house what dr heather ashton says is law

KMcN

Your guest was really brave to talk about his experience. Good for him

Adam

possibly YC's best ep to date, really knockin em out of the park

tursi

i was a heroin addict, then nitazenes, for many years. I really miss when you could find a clean supply of east coast #4. iykyk. i remember the first time i snorted a line of Philly #4 in 2014.. i said to myself "i see why people do this everyday", foreshadowing my future. after that first line, i felt how ive always wanted to feel. sitting on my front stoop, smoking a cigarette feeling that warm glow for the first time, altered the next decade of my life. I held a job and graduated college with a bachelor's of science all while maintaining my heroin addiction. I remember meeting my plug the day of my graduation, snorting two bags of some really pure #4 before I walked and got my degree. That photo of me holding my degree with my sunglasses on sits in my office, and every time I look at that photo, I feel very conflicted. My life really fell apart when I started smoking crack with my older cousin in 2016. spiraled downhill for the next two years and ended up in rehab. I got clean, got out, cousin died, and did well for the next 2 years. in 2021 i started doing fake blues with nitazenes in them and started smoking crack again. i got clean again in late 2022 or 2023. i never understood how anyone could get addicted to benzos. at least with (clean/real) heroin you got this wonderful warm glowing euphoria. it gave you energy and removed any anxieties you had. it was very rare to have seizures and die when trying to kick it but benzos man. they fuck you up, they don't have that euphoria to them and you can DIE when you try to quit.

E

I have had lifelong anxiety that came to a horrible fever pitch peak when my mom was dying/in the aftermath of her death. The physical symptoms always the worst: high blood pressure, tinnitus, insomnia, sweating, pain, etc. She was getting hospice service during it and I was basically losing my mind. Part of end-of-life care also is for the family, and the hospice staff really pushed me to go to get “help” which would have 100% been a Xanax prescription. I kind of regret not accepting help at the time but… I’m also glad I didn’t get pulled into Benzoland. I eventually sought help on my own and wound up on Buspro, which highkey transformed my life. It is supposed to have similar therapeutic effect as benzos have (for those who it works for), without the addictive properties or the fucked up side effects, but the catch is it typically takes a couple weeks for it to start helping. Helped me almost right away though. It’s crazy to me that people wind up stuck on benzos forever. My grandma had a horrible Xanax problem. It’s terrible to see

jjj

Did you hear about the polish benzo? “They were trying to invent a stimulant” 👍

Joey Fanara

First time I’ve heard someone else that had the devils itch worst pain of my life. I had it 3 different times and now religiously put on sunscreen

b2b saas purveyor

fun coincidence - just popped the last of the bars my cousin mailed me & *not* looking forward to the next few days

Junes2k

This is an ep just for me. I needed to hear this.

PineBat Jo

My sister is profoundly disabled. She’s been on clonopin since she was a kid. She suffers “spells” where we can see that shes clearly in pain, but she’s non-speaking, so she can’t tell us anything. Could her medications be causing her more harm than good? 😭

Madison Perry

This episode was really interesting and made me pretty emotional. I appreciate this interesting guy for coming on the pod and I’ll give the article a read. My dad had treatment resistant depression and got physically dependent on clonopin for a time, after they prescribed it to him after ECT. I was 14 then and didn’t really understand why/how that medication was affecting him.

Spencer McKee

YC’s Yoda Peterson impression… phenomenal stuff

WarkTown

Yknow feeling about him aside this is an old man not knowing what’s happening to him medically and grappling with his ego and

Dry wall Eater

Benzos are insane. They fix me instantly, that’s why I stay away

mattpbutcher

Devils itch representation!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bukharinwuzright69420

Know a few people’s parents who get xans from Mexico w no prescription

Han

the donkey is one of the most wonderful animals! they are so lovely and friendly. I’ve taken kids to hang out with them at a rescue for my work quite a few times. by the end of the visit everyone is enamoured

Ant koz

Liz my father and I just went to Poland together for vacation and some light ancestry tourism. We went to the Catholic Church in my great great grandfathers village in SE Poland and found his hand written baptismal record from 1882. It was cool. Also Warsaw and krakow were really fucking rad.

Loco Motive

I only have about 15 mins left in the episode so I'm assuming it doesn't get a mention, but a huge part of opiate withdrawal (can't speak to any other kind) that freaked me out when I was an active addict, and plagued me afterward, was PAWS (post-acute withdrawal symptoms) which can last for a year or longer after you get clean and is essentially your brain and body trying to cope with and relearn how to function normally in terms of producing dopamine, serotonin, etc... as a result you may suffer any number of distressing psycological and physiological issues since everything is so out of whack. And of course you have the relentless cravings and shit like (for me at least) hyper vivid dreams of scoring your DoC (oc 80s and Roxy 30s in my case) only to wake up just before you can use (kinda like falling and waking up just before you splat).

Sarah

The gender donkey erasure happening here :(

Shyan Khan

network reference is top tier stuff

Nathan

4:50 Shrek was right there!

Nathan

Thought he struggled a bit when it was just him and Liz since you can’t replace Brace’s energy, but he’s the real middle ground between the two

S

Tryna get some stately pleasure dome knowaimean

Carlybob2134

Crazy episode to come out the day I find out my health insurance lapsed because they failed to bill me correctly lol

Adam

the true extent of the star wars fixation has been a rollercoaster. from novelty to irritation and now finally to transcendance

Ant koz

It’s remarkable how little doctors know about drugs, street drugs and the ones they prescribe. I work as a peer counselor for the schizophrenic population in west baltimore so there is massive crossover with my clients and drug addiction… I have a doctor on my team that I work with daily and she has zero understanding of how drugs work. I once had a doctor recommend suboxone for crack addiction and had to explain to him that that was useless which he took personally until he did the research. As a recovering drug addict I can say with confidence doctors have a dangerously low understanding of how drugs and their withdrawals and really every single thing about them works

Han

I don’t think it’s wrong to talk with her doctor/team about any concerns you are having regarding meds, even if it’s just to just give you some clarity. navigating pain management for someone disabled can be difficult no matter what their circumstances are, so the best thing for you to do here is to share what the family is seeing and advocate for further inquiry.

M D

I'm on a 4strips/day suboxone dose for years of 7OH addiction and the "crawling out of your skin" feeling is by far the worst withdraw experience I have ever I had. I genuinely wish I as getting off coke and alcohol at the same time instead of those withdrawals. Like Brace said when I felt like shit I would immediately dose up when trying to tapper. I'm glad this dude got help, I can only imagine how awful 19 years of usage was to come off. And it does sound like he was even really abusing, like I think I snorted my benzos more then I ever swallowed them

Matty yglesias

doesn’t help that this guy clearly lied about being prescribed otherwise doctors would know he was withdrawing

patreonuser9999

the opening-ish melody was really pretty thank you YC

Aurelie

Getting on my soapboax because I think benzos are the most evil class of drugs out there… 1) Benzo laced opioids can mask the typical signs of opioid ODs and reduce the effectiveness of narcan 2) Not only are benzos a direct cause of dementia, they’re also a favorite of the healthcare industry in “treating” dementia patients. They’re meant to be used as sedatives but if you’re demented and having an episode and they shove ativan down your throat, your body tries to fight it because you don’t understand what’s going on

cmanenarwhale

i also had hells itch when i was visiting CR this summer. it was miserable - a scalding hot shower worked bc its something ab killing the nerves or something. its such a weird feeling, n i was w my gf, so u feel so crazy. kinda wild how quickly panic sets in.

Kendrickryan

I’m getting surgery on Wednesday

cmanenarwhale

they also say dont use aloe or other moisture bc it like seals the burn in or something and makes it worse. idk the science im just speaking my truth #woke

hhannahh

Brad talks about his health anxiety, I feel less alone. Brad talks about his benzo dependence, I feel less alone. Brad rules <3

Grant M

Ever met a donkey? Can confirm they’re wretched beasts

Irene

I share Liz’s donkey opinion. Look up “donkey king” on Netflix.

Thomas McIlroy

YC started to sound like that autistic surgeon from TV at the end of one of the Peterson quotes.

Stephen Laswell

As a doctor who graduated from med school last year, I can say medical education on this topic has gotten a lot better. I learned about benzo withdrawal and dependency and that it was only meant for short term. That benzo withdrawal is comparable with alcohol withdrawal. As I’ve started practicing it’s surprised me how many people are on these chronically. Older, out of touch doctors still give these things out like candy

TrueAnonPod

This was my truth as well ❤️ Aloe made it worse but Wife’s hate to hear such things

Z

Oh fuck! That sunburn itching sensation happened to me in college. I had to go to the hospital and they gave me a hydroxyzine (STRONG antihistamine couldn't drive after) and if went away.

Schlep

on the subject of benzos, Klonopin is the most appropriately named drug cuz it sounds exactly like what it does.

Abi Firicano

The way Jordan Peterson talks about being addicted to benzos reminds me of a couple people I’ve known that started taking drugs because they truly believed that they had the willpower and raw intellect to not get “addicted”. As if they thought they could outsmart meth.

Alec

Xanax made it so I could graduate college, I took it sparingly the night before exams so I could sleep. That is the optimal use case tbh

Nolan

Finally an episode about Khubilai Khagan’s pleasure palace of Shandu north of Beijing in the late 1200s

Scrotus

So deeply depressing hearing this as someone who works in medicine. We have truly fucked up so many people. Blows my mind that someone could prescribe benzos without being aware about the withdrawal. I’d like to think this generation and future generations can make things better, but who knows. This shit sucks.

Scrotus

if you still have troubles with insomnia low dose doxepin is an excellent medication that keeps your sleep cycles relatively untouched too! Also since its low dose you have a much lower risk of side effects. Hope you’re doing well now.

Caroline

I was lucky to avoid being put on benzos: after about 10 years on SSRIs my mental health had hit a plateau and it was suggested that I move to benzos. Instead, I found a very good psychoanalytically inclined therapist and a new GP and I came off SSRIs. It took the better part of a year. It was obviously not as bad as benzo withdrawal, but it was difficult and I had to weather a lot of mood swings, panic attacks, and physical symptoms (like zaps and insomnia). It was really worth it though, and helped me with dependence on alcohol and weed, which I also struggled with. I think SSRIs and even benzos can be very helpful for someone in the midst of an acute crisis, like an airbag during a car crash. But it seems like evidence shows they're not as helpful as good therapy, much less changing our society to be less hostile to ordinary life. Something that helped me through panic attacks has been low-dose beta blockers very occasionally as needed - it dampens the physical symptoms of anxiety I get, like heart palpitations. Obviously, not everyone can or wants to take beta blockers, but maybe it'll help someone!

Eggie

That brainyquote about JP's grandmother is like a Kids in the Hall skit, especially with the amazing vocal interpretation.

K H

Off topic BUT imo the push towards child amphetamine/Ritalin is a consequence of moving away from hitting without having an alternative of how to parent. A shift from physical restraint to chemical constraint and manipulation. Because children have not adapted to the constraints of capitalism and when forced to choose between the 2, society squares the circle by either naked brutality or chemical manipulation. Women were in part liberated from this. In my view children must also be liberated or we are destined to repeat this cycle. Only by the technology that increasingly restrains us have we made any progress, but soon we will reverse. Children should be able to vote to materially change who their teachers are, call in parents of problem students and hold both to some account, and allocate some level of funding for their schools. Children must learn self restraint and self direction BEFORE they enter adulthood. A society that can not enable that will fail eventually.

cl

I got my first Rx for Klonopin from a anti-war doc living on a commune.

cl

You made a wise choice.

cl

Still fucked up from *prescribed* Klonopin..."the lowest dose!"

Evan Scott

Was only on ativan/lorazepam as prescribed once in the morning once in the evening for a little under a month before i realized something was very very wrong and started tapering. Still really fucked me up for like 6 months. Can't imagine being on a benzo for years or decades. Much love to everyone who's been through benzo withdrawal, it's absolutely insane

Evan Scott

One of the worst things about benzos is that they work really, really well. It's a shame that they get prescribed in a way that ruins them. I know i could never take one again

Kevin Boyle

In medical school, You must study how to make your boat payments from all the money you make prescribing bezos because everyone says you dont study any one topic to be a doctor

K H

Surgeons almost always want you to do surgery. Often long term it is no better than not having surgery. I have also had broken bones with surgery recommended initially. I got it immobilized without surgery and let it ride. As long as you don't let it heal in a fucked up way, you can get out of surgery. If it's stuck in a fucked up position you are probably fucked though and they gon need to cut that bitch open. Being a doctor is a hard job, so most of them kind of suck, and because of privacy rules you won't know until it's too late. They have like 0 oversight. Many people are screwed by doctors with completely unearned confidence.

zach

I have. It's how they're most often prescribed by psychs these days, but there is a historically-prevalent off-label use, by some psychs but also often by GPs without specialized training, that is the source of the problem.

Noah

I cannot imagine the vivid displays of humanity that are contained within braces algorithm now that he's a dad

cl

Yep

NeoKon Knueppel

I work for a living and have two health insurance options: completely useless or finically debilitating

cl

This is the 'source' of the problem: gimme a 💊

cl

Huh??

WingsOfJupiter

Yeah my psychiatrist gives me bottle of 20 and it last me 6 plus months. You just only ever hear about the bad psychiatrists but lots of us are out there living normal lives with occasional benzo use.

Mikachu

I might have missed it but I think they were mostly referring to withdrawal symptoms when they brought it up. I've gone off setraline a couple times and the brain zaps can be pretty bad, along with all the other shit.

Amanda LaMountain

I was on 1 mg of Xanax for at least a decade to help with night time anxiety and terrible insomnia. I knew better than to ask for more because I was terrified of becoming more and more physically dependent, but inevitably I would increase my dosage bit by bit every month so that the last week or so I was down to halves and quarters and some months no mgs before the end of the month was up. So the insomnia and anxiety and bugs on the skin meant I went to work teaching art in an underfunded elementary school seeing 600 kids a week, and felt like their voices were little birds pecking my eyes out while my body was made of glass. It was truly horrifying. I am glad that I finally kicked it, and that my doctor never increased my dosage, it would have been terrible. I'm sorry your guest went through that. AWFUL.

Colin S

Tip: Stay on top of hand issues, the kids get heavier

cagey eye

i will never make my bed you can't make me

Meadowlark-Lemonist

I’m going to make my bed tomorrow. Thanks for the advice.

Keith

It is difficult ti confront addiction if one has no capacity for introspection.

.

Very interesting. In Australia if you ask a doctor for benzos they spit at you and call you a drug addict and subject you to various humiliations. I recently needed a script for melatonin and they would only give me 30 tablets with no repeats. I can’t imagine a world of doctors handing out benzos frivolously.

Brea

I took low dose Klonopin daily for like 4 months for panic disorder, tapered off no problem and it was one of my more helpful medications. Continued to take it periodically for year for travel situations. But my psych was very careful in working with me over the minimum effective dose and talked to me constantly during this time.

cl

Thx Brad. I hope you have the support you need to survive the nightmare that is BIND.

Max Schultz

Brace hating on donkeys is devastating. You would think such a dysgenic man would be able to appreciate the goofy working animal that was key in building Western America

Bryson Martinez

Xanax is the cause of every felony I have ever attained. Fun fact : waking up in jail with no idea how you got there is pretty surreal

Shiv

Oscar for Y(oda)C

Norbur

Bread Phillips

Leena

I find it so frustrating how some doctors are always working towards this imaginary perfect patient you could be, instead of actually looking at the material conditions and seeing if something is actually bugging you enough to do something about it. It’s wild that happens in a country with such expensive healthcare, too.

Jacob King

Great episode, my psychiatrist brought up Valium in our most recent session. I was already planning to say no but I found this discussion helpful in ordering my thoughts.

EndOfTour

As someone who took SSRI’s for only like three and a half years, going ‘cold turkey’ off them was fucking crazy; it gave me like crazy levels of paranoia and mania and shit, I thought people were trying to murder me in my house, I had crazy nightmares that made it hard to sleep. I cannot imagine at all what stopping after twenty years would do to your body, no wonder he’s like that.

Z F

I thought the same thing the first time I took them, but if you've ever had that cracked out feeling from crashing off of molly or too much adderall, benzos wash it away completely and leave this serene feeling, with a mild echo of the upper's euphoria. I used to say it felt like pouring moisturizer on my dry, itchy brain. Benzos also "cure" hangovers. I doubt I would have gotten in so deep with them if I hadn't been doing so many other drugs, but then I came to appreciate them in their own right. The feeling was like if you could isolate just the mood boost of beginning to feel pleasantly tipsy, without the perceptual distortion. All that said, others' drugs of choice will probably always be mysterious. I couldn't get past the nausea and constipation enough to give opiates a fair shake.

Michelle Smith

Couldn't predict Christopher Walken coming to to talk about Lord of the rings

David Haigh

42:00 Ish: Experts trusting experts excerpts. By which I mean once one of your multiple doctors see's a medication or diagnosis from another they're usually going to "trust" that more than you can make them trust you in the 10 minute appointment window (UK). Realistically doctors should probably have their LLM summarise the patients conversations with their LLM-Doctora.

Galilayyo

The Hillary Clinton French clown interview deep cut near the end was also pretty sick

Hugh Jazz

How did it get completely overlooked that the world knows who Jordan b Peterson is solely and entirely because of his appearances on Rogan

moving_mountain

On azam I definitly prenounced my "g" sound less guttural

Drew

Not to be a total pedant, but Factitious Disorder/Factitious Disorder by Proxy is the current nomenclature used for Munchausen

Quinn

My buddy Shawn got fucked up on Benzos in the 9th grade after spending a summer break in Michigan. Came back, hit it hard, hasn’t been the same since. Really devastatingly sad what happened. Never seen that happen before until him in our podunk town.