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Episode 162: The End of the End of History??? (Patreon)

Published:
2021-05-30 20:03:21
Edited:
2024-10-11 00:17:07
Imported:
2026-06
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Alex Hochuli from the Aufhebunga Bunga podcast joins us to discuss the Brazilianization of the world, the Bolsonaro admin's COVID response, and his forthcoming book "The End of the End of History."

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Comments

Sneakaboard

Did his suicide change anything?

Shfifty_five

I thought the episode was pretty good and hit on some good points, particularly when discussing the spiritual resignation of the revolutionary left since the fall of the USSR, though I agree with Liz in that I also don't 100% agree with Fukayama's thesis in "End of History", there are sone spiritual truths there. As for Hochuli, I've know nothing about this guy's background but he seems reasonable here. So why does it even matter in terms of having him as a podcast guest?

Josh

Holy shit this comment section has strong opinions against this episode. I’m fucking excited! No way in hell I’ll ever take a leap of faith to believe something I’m told just because I like the person who is telling it to me, but Liz and Brace (and YC ofc) are a few of a small handful of people whose statements being incorrect to me means without a doubt that i need to educate myself because I am missing information that would force me to agree with them. On the off-chance I’m wrong, I’ll give an update.

David Manson

You love to see your favorite shows cross pollinate

jules

brace i am begging you just try the xipill. just a little bit.

Nic Warnock

As a working parent I only have time for one true crime podcast for 36 year old paralegals and one global politics podcast from the end of the End of History. Nice to see them come together.

D.K. Wilson

It remains unreal that anyone “believed” or was excited in any way by Donald John Trump... and more unreal that he, his seed, and the entire artifice around him remains anywhere other than imprisoned.

Sam

Since the election of Biden aren’t we at the end of the end of the end of history?

kyledamon96

If herstory is about women then is hisstory about snakes?

BruceInAdelaide

RE "Populism"; The "left" are constantly diverted from struggles of substance between the 1% and the 99% by empty gestures in "culture wars". Culture wars are a psyops that have destroyed the left over the last several decades. They always benefit the Right. It takes the target off the fundamental contradiction.

BruceInAdelaide

I offer to you the example of the recent "Humans of the CIA" campaign. The flaunting of Culture Wars ideology by the Deep State, the Biden/Harris/Clinton/Albright wing of the DNC is not co option of "OUR" ideas. It is THE ideology of the ruling class in this era. It keeps us divided . if we focus on labor and capital, we offer a goal where 99% can unify, rather than squabble over religious and other cultural divisions.

BruceInAdelaide

The CIA was not appropriating' "OUR" categories. The CIA was owning their own policies of division.

Adam Sullivan

The Mark Tercek character arc is wild, speaking of the ngo pipeline.

Terence Connolly

Fucking university of Kent on an academic biography should be an invitation to keep a wide berth. Fruedi cult does have some reach. Must be that Koch money frank keeps getting.

Jonathan lees

Excellent. End of history scene that’s some heavy arrogance although cement can last a long time

Izak Kennedy

can we start calling the post occupy milieu the nü left

Daniel Goffe

Good show thank you. I think the vaccine issue of whether the developing world who export input commodities and manufacture goods for the west is quite important for the next few years. Grace Blakely has done some good Marxist analysis of the potential risks for Global capitalism.

Paul

fighting climate change with nuclear power is like fighting capitalism by forming big global cooperations in every other sector of the economy. you need to decentralize the energy production and the only way of doing that is by allowing communities to produce their own energy with wind and solar. I dont need technocratic and monopolistic control over my energy source, so to hell with nuclear, coal and gas.

Nic Warnock

Hope this episode gets a few more people listening to Aufhebunga Bunga. It’s really great. The Bunga series Liz recommended at the end is “CaliBunga: Tech, Drugs & Capitalist Soul - a 5 part series on the Californian Ideology”

Sean

if the Dept of Energy would let me enrich uranium in my 1 bed apartment I could solve this

Eric Neilson

it's 100 possible to run society on solar, wind. It happened before the industrial revolution. If you think that (just solar and wind energy) system will support 8 billion people, then you're dreaming.

Sparrow

I wish I understood your position.

Sparrow

Agree with Liz on Bernie: stop giving out my damn email!!!!!!

Jared

Aufhebunga is one of the best podcasts, great crossover

Ian

I just wanna say that I agree with Liz on keeping the podcast structure.

Baron

Glad to see Trots getting representation on here!

(Noah J)

Where'd you dig up this babbling dip shit (Hochuli)? Incoherent nonsense. Tough episode to make it all the way through. This guy is fucking garbage lol.

Son of Samsung

LMFAO you guys reaaallly didn’t do your due diligence on this one. Hochuli at the University of Kent was in a far right rabidly anti-environmentalist, pedophilia apologist cult associated with Living Marxism. I just by chance was writing an article on this and you had him on your show the day before. Here’s part two in Silverstein’s blog! Part 3 is tmr and it’s JUICY!!! https://washingtonbabylon.com/part-ii-turd-positionism-on-alex-hochuli-trueanon-and-other-softcore-trumpists/

DH

Did a quick scroll through. Looks like the gayest article that's ever been posted - congrats brotha!

Seth Aronovich

@Eric Neilson BRB gonna go dig up the rare earth metal for the 10th billion person's smartphone with a wooden shovel and refine it with a waterwheel.

Seth Aronovich

"I dont need technocratic and monopolistic control over my energy source" = "I oppose government run energy infrastructure" OK Chuck Koch

Son of Samsung

If you don’t believe me just google Hochuli and go to his linked in and you’ll find the Modern Movement listed there. Look that up and you’re down the rabbit hole dude. I know what I’m talking about

Seth Aronovich

Jacobin is inarguably more suss than Spiked!

DH

Turn on your monitor

Sam

I’ve understood this for awhile. However where I think I went wrong was in believing the way to achieve this was through a constructive dialogue with this ideology. Listening to the concerns, incorporating the insights of intersectionality, emphasising multiracial coalitions etc. It sounds nice and constructive on the surface but I now realise that it was a trap - intentionally or not - in which all the concessions were made on my end and I actually wound up reinforcing the ideology rather than challenging it. I was completely outmanoeuvred.

Jimothy Realname

Tony my man, you can catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar. I checked out your article and you have a point, Hochuli is a little suspicious. But you flew straight out of the gate, guns blazing, and put them on the defensive. If it were me, I would have contacted them privately before going hog wild with the public accusations. Surely if Trueanon were intentionally platforming weirdo Koch-funded Trotskyites, I would want to know, right? If they got weirdly defensive in the private messages, you then could have posted those publicly and accused them of being an op or something.

Son of Samsung

You might be right but I also spent the last couple weeks reading all these fucked up LM magazines back issues so I’m a little on edge if you can understand

nick tolliday

this guy any kin to ed hochuli???

Tex

I enjoyed it personally, thought he made some good points

Nic Warnock

Any comment on anything Alex said on this very podcast? How has anything said here in line with the right wing libertarian actor you're painting him to be? LM looks very shit, but also a world away from what is being discussed here. Do you want people to be forever chastised for their previous associations? Going to read Part 3 of your blog but I just don't think this lines up.

Son of Samsung

He’s plugging American affairs, dude. Also his current podcast hosts all continue to write for spiked. It’s not “a world away” as you’re saying. Anyway, if you want to read more, part three of my article about Hochuli’s involved in the pedophile apologist “manifesto club” will be out today. It also details why I believe his career as a pseudo left podcaster and his past career in the LM cult are one and the same

Son of Samsung

He’s plugging American affairs, dude. Also his current podcast hosts all continue to write for spiked. It’s not “a world away” as you’re saying. Anyway, if you want to read more, part three of my article about Hochuli’s involved in the pedophile apologist “manifesto club” will be out today. It also details why I believe his career as a pseudo left podcaster and his past career in the LM cult are one and the same

DTC

Who the hell is this allen dude? Why are you plugging this trash bb? Your writing is pretty terrible.

Son of Samsung

Whatever dude. You can read my article and believe it if you want, I don’t care. But if you just google Hochuli and then “the modern movement” and Living Marxism: it’s all there. Why do you passively accept everything you listen to and not stop for even a second to question the background and the motivations of the people you get your information from?

Nic Warnock

What I’m saying is the ideology agenda you’re painting is far from what is being talked about here, or in the jacobin YouTube talk promoting the book. I’m asking you to address the content here beyond these associations. If it’s some neo-con-esque trot-to-conservative ploy it’s gotta be an ineffective one

(Noah J)

Hochuli is an absolute dildo. Low point for TrueAnon interviewing this complete dip shit. Here's one of his awesome takes during his Modern Movement days - a group that he founded. Get a load of this libertarian ass clown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-pvpjUevQw

natalie

just read it, seems pretty credible, any more on his anti-enviromentalism?

Nic Warnock

A few points... 1) I’ve searched Alex Hochuli with modern movement, spiked, living Marxism etc... can’t find any associations from the last 10 years. If you google “Alex Hochuli spiked” the second result is a tweet of him mocking the publication from 2020. Maybe people change? 2) None of the Alex h8ers are supporting a single Patreon. How bout some mutual aid for the real existing left (aka podcasters) please fellas?? 3) Feel sad I’ve spent this much time in the comments section of a podcasts patreon :-(

Son of Samsung

Number one I think the associations are damning enough and they’re not ancient history because his co-hosts Philip Cunliffe and George Hoare continue to write for Spiked. Number two, the content doesn’t even really matter. If we’re talking about Brazil it’s not really eyebrow raising and can basically camouflage his politics in the Anglo world. Also, his positions are usually babbling, incoherent and reactionary as some other people have said in this comment section. I also think he’s fishy and prob up to no good in Brazil, but I won’t get into that. Number 3 he’s definitely in the ilk of the stupid, digital third-positionists as he’s constantly posturing and defining himself by negation and antagonism to an abstract left while also throwing cold water on left populist movements. He’s also tight with Julius Krein and American Affairs (which Liz referenced three times in the show without once mentioning what it is, who it’s backers are and it’s broader political project). Again, the third part of my article will come out today and I’ll go more into reasons why I’m suspicious of Hochuli. Make your own mind up. I think there’s every reason to be suspicious of his associations especially now that he’s paling around with Krein. Everyone could use to be more critical of the media they consume.

Son of Samsung

Read part three, I’ll address all that. You don’t find it odd that his co-hosts are all still active in spiked? Anyway if you read part three I’m also going to give more evidence about why I think he’s still associated with this clique

Nic Warnock

Re Allen’s part 3. Sorry man you haven’t convinced me even with these ‘scandalous’ links. The Bunga boys are too unfashionable and idiosyncratic in their gripes to have some secret libertarian agenda. I reckon they are legitimately interested in bottom-up, mass participatory democracy. You can’t spend that long talking about individualisation (negatively duh) and the crisis of political representation while being a closet libertarian. I’m not sure what the left is now, in my country the labor party does not represent the interests of workers, but these crypto fascist hunts can’t be productive for folks that want less humiliation and despair for ordinary people.

Son of Samsung

He also worked with the Ferudi front group “manifesto club” that opposed screening schoolteachers for sex crimes. There’s a totally batshit report from around the time he was a member that’s bemoaning Gordon Brown’s requirements for background checks for adults supervisor youth hobby clubs and complaining that model airplane clubs will decline because no adults will want to join due to the onerous sex offender background checks. http://manifestoclub.info/wp-content/uploads/HobbyClubs.pdf

Son of Samsung

It’s cool how you had a guy on who was a leader of “the manifesto club” an organization that opposed screening for sex crimes in professions working with children. They published this bonkers report at or around the time Hochuli was a member http://manifestoclub.info/wp-content/uploads/HobbyClubs.pdf it complains that youth oriented model airplane hobby groups will decline because no one wants to put up with the onerous sex crime screening process

Son of Samsung

Natalie, if you read part three of my article I argue that he still subscribes to this ideology because his podcast co-hosts are still very much in the spiked clique, he approvingly cited a Living Marxism article as of 2015 (which rings alarm bells because that magazine is creepy as hell) and finally because he almost never mentions the Amazon which for a “journalist” who is “covering” Brazil is deeply unusual especially when the 2019 Amazon fires dominated international news. Here’s part 3. https://washingtonbabylon.com/part-iii-turd-positionism-on-alex-hochuli-frank-furedi-chapo-trap-house-and-quillette-plus-the-bizarre-tale-of-living-marxism/

Dan Greene

Having personally never heard of this guy before, anyone care to specifically address what you see wrong with the analysis he presents in this episode/in the book he just put out? If you have a critique of his ideas I'm curious. Lots of comments so far but nothing resembling substantive criticism.

Dan Greene

Also, I don't know if you meant to be ironic, but come up with a better insult than "softcore Trumpist." What year is this, 2015? I don't know what clique "Allen" and his three twitter friends belong to, but it seems pretty weird and incomprehensible, seeing "secret Trumpists" everywhere

Son of Samsung

Ken retracted that headline. Also I wasn’t the one who wrote it

Son of Samsung

I have substantive critiques of Hochuli in part two of my article not to speak of his batshit involvement in the cult

Son of Samsung

It’s so funny how Liz and Brace in every other circumstance would make hay out of someone having documented connections to a far right pro-pedophilia cult and you people would guffaw and clap like seals, but since you guys are such simps and uncritical losers you immediately rush to Hochuli’s defense because you have a parasocial relationship with some podcast. Get a life!

Nic Warnock

Allen, everyone’s point is that you haven’t interacted with anything discussed in the actual episode or anything that seems key to Alex’s current project. Maybe his previous association with nefarious, cult like figures has led him to a better politics? Maybe you think the PMC is a stupid concept or those freaks at the capitol did a coup, but show me how Alex is pushing some right wing, counter-socialist agenda.

Dan Greene

We've been talking a lot about Hochuli. But what about Patchouli?

Baron

False, we are simps and hypercritical losers

Son of Samsung

Anyway guys, sorry if I came off as too antagonistic. If Brace and Liz are reading these comments the RCP/Living Marxism would actually make a great subject for a show cuz you know, far right, corporate backed, pro-pedophilia cults are in their wheelhouse. Also, it would be a good direction for the show to go in given that they just uncritically interviewed one of its members lol

A S

You understand this is just a podcast, right? There aren't any stakes here. Even if you are totally correct, it doesn't mean anything. They put out an entertainment product, everyone here pays for it. That's it, that's all.

Son of Samsung

I think there are stakes. There is a concerted effort underway by right wing think tanks and their publications to make inroads into leftish new media and brand “right populism” as “left populism” using influencers to market it. Julius Krein’s venture is just one example, but there are tons of people I’ve profiled who have personal as well as financial relationships to right wing publications backed by right wing think tanks and billionaires. Many of these influencers have a huge following and reach and can have a massive propagandizing effect. If think tanks didn’t think it was valuable they wouldn’t be doing it.

A S

Fukuyama has been vindicated by nearly 3 decades of non-history. Everyone seems to forget "and the Last Man". Everything discussed here is an aesthetic resistance to neoliberalism.

DTC

I tried to read it but it was written like a high school newspaper review of the pandemic prom.

Terence Connolly

One of the problems with Spiked and those that are it’s alumni is that while their may be a kernel of truth to their argument the problem is that their argument is never made in good faith. Their writers may be the scourge of the PMC but they never see class as being as been a relationship to the means of production rather they see it as an identity, thus backing up the idea of culture wars which is good at keeping the left from getting an audience. Or like spiked has done blame environmental standards and not cost cutting by developers and management boards for the Grenfell fire. Baroness Fox who sits in the House of Lords is an alumnus of the RCP/Spiked who used brexit to ‘prove’ she was speaking up for the WC and freedom, except that freedom is a freedom for employers to push for a race to the bottom. Anyway if spiked/rcp raise some questions look at the Bob from Brockley blog, an enlightening read.

Cody Roach

MAGA: Make America Glass All over

A S

The fact that you and everyone else calls communism/socialism "Leftism" means everyone is playing their game already. The shift in language is what they would call "rebranding". The "Left New Media" IS the operation you're describing. They don't have to infiltrate shit. If any of this meant anything, it wouldn't be allowed to exist.

Dan Greene

So everyone coming after TrueAnon for having Hochuli on is extremely anti-Grayzone and is fixated on "red-brown alliances," ie not people that I or I imagine most of the subscribers here would find very credible. Ken Silverstein seems to like Bellingcat very much. They also are Russiagaters and acuse everyone who they disagree with of either being Putin stooges or "right wing." It makes you wonder why they are listening to TrueAnon in the first place

Son of Samsung

Everyone always “asks to speak to the manager” and goes after Ken Silverstein, but never discusses the content or talks to the actual author. Also I never once fucking said red brown, because I don’t consider them “reds” but national conservative court jesters. I just mentioned that there are conservative publications backed by think tanks that are trying to make inroads into leftish new media ventures. It’s also true

Michael

When are we gonna get a new episode where there isn't some guest there mucking it up? 😩 They're alright, but I barely listen to the interview episodes lol I just wanna hear brace and Liz riff and joke around about pedophiles and shit. Like unless it's Ed opperman, I'm rarely ever entertained by the guests. I know I may be in the minority here, but please do a crew only ep soon please <3 or bring Ed back that dude's hilarious lol

skipmur

Lmao at this comment section. The left is straight up retarded, you people are freaks.

skipmur

lmao Irk joking around about child rape is such a fucking vibe right???

Tord Johansson Munk

Any real political alternatives died with planned economy.

babygurl

Did we just forget about the recent revolution in Sudan? These macro narratives of state violence seem to lead to totalizing accounts of political economy that only serve to enable and extend revolutionary cynicism. (There is nothing more bourgeois that revolutionary cynicism.) The rhetorical move that insists that all leftist counter movements are inevitably folded back into an immoveable monster participate in a very old form of state fetishism that we need to root out in our thinking and abandon. In Brazil and other places in South America, Indigenous counter movements are responding to this failure of political representation through legitimate forms of self-organizing. Why is it that, in the attempt to conceptualize the end of history, all other counter movements to develop political capacities are ignored or completely elided? How is it that this kind of framework never seems to speak to forms of life and political vitality that are ongoing? Ending for whom?

Doug Cartel

This is like with Turkey and Trump and a few other unstable places: it seems like you can either have the cops by your side or the military but not both, other factors notwithstanding. Maybe it has to do with the army being made up of people from across the country and being outwardly focused, while the cops are structurally the opposite?

Joel

regardless of that bullshit blog post, just listening to this guy he's clearly an annoying trot lunatic with very little insight - these guys are a dime a dozen in britain and are deserving of a wide berth by anyone serious

Jack Nancy

FUUUUUUUCKKKK OFFF ALREADY. I am here to learn more about what's going on in Brazil, not fucking read your article about how you don't like this guy. Jesssssusssss.

Jack Nancy

I think they talked about them on an episode. I can't for the life of me remember which one.

Son of Samsung

“Seems to like Bellingcat very much” Yeah, fine, go ahead and just make shit up

Mathieu Dube

Great show. I'm curious though: what's the idea behind the interludes of gay 80s techno music? It's not unpleasant but I wonder why...

Tom

Lamest episode ever. Populist is a word chosen by members of the People's Party who had very a specific policy agenda that was all adopted sooner or later. To say that populism is an empty reflection of neo-liberalism is an empty expression of pseudo-intellectualism. Read your Thomas Frank, ffs.

michael connor

There were some really inaccurate generalizations made throughout this episode. One example was the statement that the anti-globalization movement didn't challenge power in any significant way, that it was merely a 'carnivalesque' expression of dissent. Tell that to Lee Kyung Hae? Anyway, is this naivete or is it an ideological project consistent with this guest's right libertarian background and his work as a corporate researcher aiming to "deliver practical, actionable insights on contemporary social issues for Unilever brands, Shell"