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Edit: Just to update everyone, I added both tags. I was already leaning in that direction but I wanted some outside perspective before pulling the trigger. The general consensus seems to agree, making it an easy decision. Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion.

As of several hours ago, I am back in Australia. It took me about a day and half of travel, not counting the fact that I seem to have misplaced Thursday, somewhere around the international date line. I am quite tired.

Chapters will resume next week on the regular schedule. A couple of housekeeping things before we get back into the chapters:

Assistaloon did not come back to Australia with me but continued on to Canada with another friend of ours. This means that half of my board game group is gone and I have to remember how to do all the chapter posting tasks I foisted onto him years ago. There may be a few unforced errors in posting until he is back in a couple of weeks.

Royal Road had just made some changes/clarifications to the tags applied to their stories and I'm wondering if HWFWM should have some of the content warnings. Here are the guidelines for the tags in question. I'm interested in seeing the discussion on whether one or both apply:

Disturbing Content: Must be used for fictions that contain descriptions of torture, slavery, substance abuse, mental illness, addiction, mentions of rape, self-harm or any other content that may be considered traumatizing or mature that does not fall under the other tags. However, note that you are not allowed to glorify any of this content.

Graphic Violence: Any written content that includes detailed descriptions of violent acts, including but not limited to physical harm, bloodshed, mutilation, or any other explicit depictions of violence that may be considered disturbing or excessively graphic.

Comments

frankie doerr

Nice to have you back shirt hope everything went well and why does it have to be so descriptive doesn’t it all fall under mature content tbh I really don’t care I’m reading everything you write you’re one of my favorite authors out there

Julian

Seems reasonable, I think those labels fit. At least rhe definition that is, the actual names of the labels are a bit weird.

Chailles

... just how graphically violent is a Colin feeding frenzy anyways?

smoze

Welcome back to Aus, I would be leaning towards yes to both of those tags, mostly based around the content of Jason on Earth. Would need to re-read it myself to be sure though, still the gut reaction would be a yes to needing the tags.

Cyrus McEnnis

First - welcome back! I'm not 100% sure that your content qualifies for the warnings - MAYBE the violence one, but I could argue it either way.

Tristan

Hooray your back!!!!! Also out of technically yeah HWFWM needs both those tags probably. P.S. I really love this book series and am super excited to continue reading. Thank you for all your hard work and imagination.

RG

WTF does this mean? ‘However, note that you are not allowed to glorify any of this content’ … but I’d go with the graphic tag and not disturbing.

PapaJohn

The ‘Graphic’ tag is a definite yes imo; the whole ‘Jason getting consecutively beheaded’ thing is the first thing that comes to mind. As for disturbing… well… if it counts torture, then the attempted star seed implantation prolly makes that count.

I eat moms

I looked at the time difference between here and there. People here are getting last call while your blokes are getting ready to hit the bar. Got me thinking about how it's always 5 in Margaritaville and I'm shocked that hasn't been mentioned in the books. Either or though, glad you're back. Take your rest. We'll be patient. Thanks for all you do <3

Charles

The main problem with the tags are the earth section from my perspective... and the self harming tendencies of Jason

Julia

It does contain some torture and slavery, but I'm not sure if it qualifies as Disturbing Content. Maybe? I would say definitely the Graphic Violence one though.

Charles

And I am really looking forward to the new chapters

Logan Washburn

So excited to finally pay off that cliff hanger you left us on for a whole month! Also, been rereading thr first couple books recently, and yeah you definitely need those tags. We see torture with the Builderd star seed trying to possess Jason, Sophie's whole situation is heavily mentioned of rape, though thankfully it never depicts it. There's a decent amount of body horror between various monsters, flesh abominations in the Reaper Astral space, Colin has quite a bit of disturbing blood around him, and Jason's afflictions can be very harrowing. So yeah those tags would probably be for the best

Branden Goode

It's very strange. I'd definitely say the graphic tag is a go, but when it comes to the 'disturbing content' flag, I was initially going to say yes based off of the title of the tag, but HWFWM doesn't really have any of the aforementioned violations as described in the description unless you reeeaaaally stretch som of the definitions. So yeah, 1 out of 2, not disturbing, just graphic (and pretty hilarious).

dakota dodson

I'd say it fits. You have mentions of substance abuse here and there. As well as torture. And mental illness is all over the place let's not lie. I mean just the ptsd some of these characters have....

T. A. Star

I would agree with those tags as well. I even went ahead and added those exact ones to my own story and elaborated on the exact topics I touch on that I thought might fall under them in the story summary section so that reader's can make an informed choice before becoming invested in a story that might include something they actively try to avoid. Aside from the constant stream of violence against both monsters and people (often ending in being painted in blood) that Jason partakes in, his/others spiritual torture scenes and the discussions around PTSD and trauma, including Melody Jain's confinement by the team and brainwashing by a god, and the entire Messenger race being born into slavery are pretty decent reasons to add the tags. Hope this helps and welcome back 😊

Edgar Martinez

glad you are back and i think disturbing content is appropriate but i don’t think you need graphic violence HWFWM isn’t exceeding violent

Hunter Thornton

Yeah don’t worry about content rating too much. Jason is just a normal guy with some SUPER evil powers

Tyler Dideriksen

I was going to say both tags would fit, but then I remembered that books 2-9 aren't on Royal Road anymore so things like the star seed implantation and Farrah's captivity aren't on the site so.....

wintoch

I'll be honest I dont care much for warning tags. I want my drug back. By drug I meam chapters, by chapters i mean HHFWM. By HHFWM i mean "MY PRECIOUS". Im glad the most important aussie arrived well. Dont tell my aussie friends. But other than the great crocodile hunter. Australia only has you nothing more. Kangaroos and koalas are overrated. Yea i said it.

Jacob Wright

I would say that the "disturbing content" is null as you haven't (yet/to this point) made any detailed visualisations of torture (at least not to my sensibilities). However, the graphic violence aspect does seem a bit more fitting to your style of writing at least to the 2nd act style not so much as of late.

Lucas Gulick

I'd say there is content in this story that falls within disturbing content, but based off the description of graphic violence I think it would be an inappropriate tag despite meeting the def by other criteria

Lucas Gulick

Yeah but they are still a part of the story, which is what the tags are trying to describe

Lucas Gulick

Absolutely loved skullduggery pleasant, and I agree with your perspective. This story has violence, but it's not obscene. The disturbing content label does seem appropriate given the amount of death and torture

Florian Brauer

Disturbing content: Torture was a central topic in book 2. Also the conflict about his soul attack. Graphic Violence: Ehm yes didn't Jason loose his head a few times recently :D

Shirtaloon

It means not having torture be a good thing.

Julian

It means that authors are not allowed to publish a story there if it tries to make "bad stuff" seem like a good thing. A few examples of stories they would probably not allow: "I get isekaied to magical Louisiana and help put down slave rebellions.", "I got reincarnated as the emperor and it turns out that sexual consent is not overrated.", & "I used to be fat, but then I discovered the wonders of amphetamines, and now I get so much done and look prettier than ever before!"

JRatt

Noooo! Not the loss of a valued boardgamer!

Ira White

Welcome back shirt hope your vacation was fun

RG

Torture is bad? But then why are romance novels a thing?

R.B. Laser

Well. I am afraid with american Standards both definitly apply. The same can easily be said for any great story though. You‘re definitly a writer that does use these themes with the depths, insight and decency they deserve and create a beautiful and superb tale. Also i doubt that the tags will actually deter any readers that will love your writing anyway.

Doodlyboy15

Glad you're back. Hope you had and assistaloon has a fun trip. I would say the tags feel... appropriate but not necessary

Shannon Bryce

I'm glad you're back and hope you had a great vacation.

Tharronis

I feel like for "Disturbing Content" only the torture might apply, but also the descriptions don't feel like they fall into the types of graphic depictions that would warrant the tag. For the "Graphic Violence", I'm not really sure if anything has met the bar of "disturbing or excessively graphic". I really can't remember anything from either of these categories that made my guts twist or make me want to skip in the audio book, and usually I'm fairly squeamish. If they have content moderators you might try to send some specific samples to see if they feel like certain things fall under those warnings. It may also be worth suggesting they add examples that apply or don't apply for each, since those are so vague.

Kheldaroz

Technically you fall under those restrictions- especially the starting chapters You don’t glorify it so your all good Welcome home - got back in time to watch afl grand final - which is about the only game I watch a year but given that your from nsw you probably don’t care

David

They’re worried about snowflakes crying over nothing. It gets old -_-

David

The labels are kind of ridiculous. It’s like how the media labels absolutely everything as trauma. Superfluous and annoying because the words don’t mean the same thing, or anything, anymore. I can’t stand this extra soft woke bullshit

StarkRG

It kinda sounds like almost everything that isn't written specifically for 6-year-olds qualifies for "Disturbing Content". Whether "substance abuse" qualifies depends greatly on what you consider "abuse", I'd certainly say that a character drinking enough alcohol to black out qualifies, but, then again, many people don't. "Mental illness", really? You've got a psychologist character specifically to deal with that, so, yeah. As for "Graphic Violence", based on that rather broad definition, HWFWM probably qualifies for that, too. The way Jason fights is pretty damn gruesome. The vision of Erika and Ian coming upon Jason hosing his bloody and ripped-to-shreds armour off was disturbing to them, at the very least. An awful lot of things "may be considered disturbing" even though they may not be as well. Content warnings this broad just end up becoming utterly useless. Maybe just tag it with everything to be safe.

riri_

Welcome back! As for the tags, we've had both of these as they are described in the story so far so they should both be applied. They're described very strictly though, but oh well ._.

Clarke

Welcome back. I share @StarkRG’s complaint that anything these days that isn’t specifically written for a child, it going to hit one or more of those triggers. I was thinking it might make a good filter to find more interesting content on RR… probably not what they intended in adding those warnings…. I wouldn’t worry about it for RR, maybe the Scene in the early book when Jason takes down Rick’s team with it’s over the top descriptions and actions would be able the only thing in the books I’d tag as such - but those are long gone from RR correct?

Jordan Svec

I’d say both of them, but I can’t think of a single fantasy/litrpg book that wouldn’t. Shit, One Piece, a manga/anime originally for the younger people wouldn’t even pass that.

Naotsugu97

Glad you enjoyed your trip. Very annoying when days disappear! As described, I’d say the tags apply. Imo, it won’t effect readership at all.

Tyler S.

Commemorative chocolate Connery in Zados bars

Jay Doubleyou Kay

IDC what you do as long as the story doesn't get watered down and americanized. It's stupid they don't just label it as Mature and leave it be. How many specifics are they going to start attaching to everything? Contains f-word, sex, people under stress, punching, people that get upset with each other, not everyone is happy at all times, contains rampant atheism, contains emotions, non-inclusive towards those of plus size clothing..... I don't know what other options there are, but maybe it's time to ditch Royal Road?

Joanne Hans

Welcome Back , Glad you had fun. I lost days this week too, Tuesday went bye-bye , but I had Wednesday twice, lol.

TheDarkD

Welcome back and yeah kinda graphic first that comes to mind is that time Jason got ripped in half by a giant spider. Not sure if the comedic delivery matters though.

Reed M

yeah, just going by reading those descriptions, HWFWM would definitely get both tags

MentalLogic

If there are people saying it needs the tag and others not sure, I would err on the side of caution and tag. Then people can't complain....

Blake N.

I can’t think of any book I’ve read on RR that wouldn’t have the violence tag

Justin Edwards

I think it's blurry on writing about villains or writing about a character with struggles who may temporarily glorify said things. They made the statement too broad.

BlackJesus

Caution is probably the best move here, so add the tags. People that enjoy this series like myself won’t care what the tags say and it may make it easier for people that sort by those tags to find your series. Tho I will say that I don’t think this really counts as graphic violence. Yes you write about things like necrotic damage, but you don’t go too in depth on what it does every time (bc that would be too repetitive, personally I think you hit the right amount of detail depth)

Kevin Anderson

Do I think your content needs the tags? No. Do I think you probably should just tag everything with both so that you don't get in trouble with the butt hurt snowflakes? Yes.

Jeff Carr

I think the content is there, but I don't think it needs the labels due to how it's presented.

Kevin McLaughlin

I think probably both tags. I don’t think that will deter your readers, TBH. :)

ReadingObsessed

Assistaloon! 😂 So is there torture? Yes. I wouldn't call it disturbing content however. Graphic? I mean yeah the battles can get fairly anime with the powers in play.

Holly Harris

That’s what I was thinking. While your story on the whole is more pg-13 in the way you’ve written it, some of the events are actually very disturbing, and should count as violence imo.

Echo Sparksong

Glad you made it home safely. Hope you can recover from the jetlag easily. The key is to let yourself have a nice long sleep. We're looking forward to the next chapter, but would rather have you healthy and happy before you start. Your work needs both tags just to be safe.

Splutty

Mental Illness is a good description of most of the characters :)

Richard Blackburn

My wife thinks it meets both criteria. I think it's fine. It's fiction/ fantasy we could tag almost EVERYTHING in that genre with both

Splutty

The really sad thing is that a lot of the children's books from my youth would also require those tags. Seems that's not allowed for kids anymore either.

Cordell Patrick

From a reading point of view I agree with you but from a standpoint of the guidelines I'd have to say mark it just incase

Stephanie Washburn

Hm. It's both. Not exceptionally both, but enough that they are very likely required.

Stephanie Washburn

I'm not sure that's accurate. Everyone is going through stuff, but of everything going on, that's the one that does not match what I know about mental illness.

Firant

Given that the purpose of Content Warnings is to guide people away from stories that will make them uncomfortable or kick up memories of past trauma, probably best to implement both Warnings. IMHO.

ling ling

its all said already. You brush both criteria on most occasions and some go into depth

Adamantinus

The tags aren't going to turn away your fans. Besides your work has earned the "Disturbing Content" tag because of Clive's wife. How so? The fact that a made-up fictional character that was made up by a made-up fictional character to mess with another made-up fictional character. If that's not the definition of disturbing... Love your work, keep it up ;)

Joanna

Yeah, both. Since one of the main themes right now is the enslavement of the messenger race, I don't see any equivocation there.

Joanna

And welcome back home, btw! I hope your sojurn in our less-than-fair country was enjoyable

Mr Wizard

I think it would be unfair (and not in the spirit of content tags in general) to characterize your entire books or series as being disturbing or graphically violent. While there is a healthy dose of Jason working through his own trauma and the disturbing events that led to it, the experience of reading this series has not been disturbing or graphically violent in my opinion. You do a great job of writing tactfully any scenes which may be of a troublesome nature and it would be a shame to brand your books with something that suggests otherwise. Edit: I agree with much of what was said above; it's probably better to be safe as some readers may be especially sensitive to certain arrangements of words, and we want to make sure that you lose new customers to scary tags rather than force them to read something they don't want to. *irreverent sarcasm*

Stephanie Washburn

For me, it's more that there are absolutely scenes that fit the pain text descriptions that Royal Road gives. Considering that this is something they implemented as a prelude to the RR app, that means they'll likely be enforcing it to some degree. At most, I'd want Royal Road to add mild, no modifier, and extreme/extensive variants on the tags. Because there is a difference between the occasional presence of disturbing content, the regular presence of disturbing content, and extensive themes of disturbing content. Like "Some fantasy violence" / "fantasy violence" / "violence and dismemberment" from video game ratings.

Jazzlovr

With 822 chapters, it's a better-than-decent bet that most tags will apply along the long road, not just these :-p.

Mr Wizard

As an American author... I agree with this, lol

Luananeko

I agree that both tags qualify. You're not an egregious offender of either, but the fights can get rather in detail, there's the whole enslaved messenger race, Jason's soul seed implantation counts as torture, and there's certainly mature content referred to with the scenes leading to the Astral gate and Clive's wife jokes. As noted by another poster, you won't be turning away any fans, but it's good for new readers to be aware and prepared going in.

Splutty

As a random comment, as someone suffering from PTSD, I absolutely HATE this diluting of important tags and information. Almost all the "Warning" tags nowadays are so broad or non-specific as to no longer matter for what they're actually intended for. "Disturbing Content" is one of the most serious offenders with this. What's disturbing? How? How much? Which things are? Why is it disturbing? Disturbing to whom? An Atheist might be disturbing to someone very religious, does that count? This tag is complete and utter garbage... [/endrant]

Clarke

Totally agree! Look at the original Grimm Fairy tales before Disney dumbed them down…

Frederick

Its not a children's book, so just add both labels to be safe. Almost everything in the US has California "it may cause cancer" warnings, just to be safe. Risk vs reward argument? Even the easily triggered often ignore the watered-down trigger warnings, but then they can't complain. My children, ages 4, 6, 8, and 10, have listened to audio books 1 thru 3 and absolutely loved them!

Frederick

I agree. This would be nothing more than a guard against frivolous lawsuits.

Shane Walker, LitRPG Underachiever

Definitely Disturbing Content. It mentions mental illness, and the fact that Clive keeps forgetting he has a wife is clearly a sign of mental illness.

Frederick

I don't think that part is available on Royal Road?

Grayvisc

The tags are not meant for us. They’re meant for the lawyers.

Matt Turner

Glad you got back safely!! I would add both for safety.

santiago villa reverte

The second one definitely, the first one is more difficult does it have to be a recurring theme? If so then no, or just by mentioning or having some secondary characters with those issues?

Joe Woodhouse

If I were someone who wanted to not read those topics, saw your story didn't have them... I would be irked to find that they indeed did have both. I think the key here is to define this not by the standards of readers who won't care, but by those of the readers who do. The guidelines as written definitely both apply. You're just lucky there isn't an Airwolf tag!

Andre A

Your story needs and extra tag, the most important of all to warn innocent readers: ADDICTIVE AS HELL, STAY AWAY OR READ IT FOREVER

Brandon Walker

You absolutely need both imo, not that that bothers any of us, but I'm sure it could put some off

Brandon Walker

I mean, it has literally everything it lists as consisting of graphic violence, and disturbing content, it absolutely described people being horrendously injured, like bleeding from eyes, by definition graphic violence, same with disturbing content, it has every single example they listed

Zpeed3

And if Clive’s wife ever shows up, Patreon will need to invent a new caption!

M

My opinion is that these are very broadly written, so would likely apply.

T. A. Star

As a side note in regards to all those saying "screw CW tags, ignore the weak people who need them", I like to not think of them as barriers to the story but like warning labels on medicine. I'm not going to _not_ take the pain killers just because it may make me drowsy but it's good to know beforehand that I might get sleepy if I take them. Also, if I'm looking for a good action-packed fighting story, I'll probably look for the related "Violence" tag; while at the same time if I'm in the mood for a light-hearted romantic HEA, I'll use different tags to avoid my OTP getting gruesomely murdered. They're basically just an extra layer of categorization that lets people know what to expect from the story.

James Gabbard

Since you're asking... you should have both. You touch on some pretty delicate content. More recent examples are enslavement and master races, but even early on, Jason's inner turmoil about murdering people are not things you want young developing minds to read. And let's face it, most scenes involving Colin are pretty disturbing. No matter how much of a good boy he is. Your story content bounces between PG light hearted banter and R-18 adult themes. You do stay thoroughly out of the X-rated Content, and there's always a build-up in tone to the tough topics so they don't really appear out of the blue, but adult content is ultimately adult content. And a tag on your story is just a tag. I don't think your readers will surprised by disturbing content or graphic violence, and the tags likely won't deter anyone who would be considered your target audience, regardless.

Andrew Hipple

I think you definitely need the first “Disturbing content”. I am not so certain about the graphic violence part. The description mentioned at the end “…that might be disturbing or excessively violent” for me I don’t think you meet that criteria. Your violence is bloody without going into excessive detail about inards, suffering extreme pain, or graphic depiction of exactly how the knife slices through skin and fat lying out bone blah blah blah torture porn. I have read books that I definitely would tag with the graphic violence tag and when I do come across them I put them down. Nothing you’ve ever written has hit me like that. But maybe I’ve just got a messed up high tolerance.

bltth26

Sad really because I’m willing to bet every single story on RR will need this lol.

Shirtaloon

I decided to edit both tags. I was already leaning that way and it seems the broad consensus agrees with me. Thanks, all.

Evan Knight

Looks like you already made up your mind. Welcome back, hope you had an enjoyable and recuperative holiday. Now, don’t F up the post Monday. ;)) Thanks mate!(Yes, I’m a sepo, that should definitely be read in Travis Noble’s voice)

Zpeed3

With Travis voiceovers come the compensator questions.

Alex Schellenberg

Does this mean that Shirt can lean into the disturbing aspects now that he has the tags?

C D

Both warnings are reasonable. Some portions of the story are, in my opinion, wildly inappropriate for my 3 and 7 year old kids. Things like brutal scarring torture, dismemberment, death (both temporary and permanent), body and mind possession, soul damage, etc. Even just the moral peril and solid reasoning behind make it hard to really immerse them into it. This is in the top ten stories I've ever read and I can't wait to share it with them, but yeah, hopping all willy nilly from tree(G rating) to tree(R rating) is a bit much currently.

Frederick

@C D, it's funny you'd say that. I've had 4 of my kids, now ages 4 thru 10, listening to the first 3 books. They finished around when the youngest turned 4. We know someone named Jason and my youngest, then 3, thought he fell down a well 🤣🤣🤣

StarkRG

Sadly, it also means you can't have drugs or alcohol be a good thing, depending on one's definition of "abuse". Certain sectors of society seem to classify any use as abuse, while others consider only excessive use to be abuse. Since nobody's very clear on it, I'm gonna say it's up to the author to decide what counts as "substance abuse".

Joanna

I don't know which part exactly is on RR just now, but all of book 10 and later parts of book 9 discuss that, including what's out of 11

StarkRG

We have echidnas too, and they most definitely are NOT overrated.

wintoch

that's just a platypus trying too hard to be a hedgehog 😂😂😂 jk 😂😂😂

Zpeed3

I’m laughing at this exchange. Our oldest was in day care when she was little and due to our joint commute has, in my opinion, the best music taste among our kids: Dead Kennedys, Clash, Beastie Boys, etc. Also, Listen to the classic fairy tales. They would likely trigger at least one of these warnings and by reading between the lines, both.

Isaac Scharff

Had a good chuckle at assistaloon

Isaac Scharff

I mean who won't she have slept with by the time this is done?

Tech-Tac-Know

God help Jason, NBC is rebooting Magnum P.I.

David Carr

I just finished rereading the entire series while you were gone, Shirt!!!!!!! I AM SOOOOOOOOOOOO READY FOR MORE!!!!!!!!! Also more of Clives' wife, haha

metzjc

It could be good to include a "possible mature themes" tag as a cover all if you thought it would be a net positive. Authors should not limit themselves in telling their stories. There are many tasteful ways to allude to certain interactions without all the detail. Too many thought police and not enough free expression of ideas are out there.

Gavin Wayne Pitcher

Id just slap a 'mature content, not suitable for children' and let adults be adults. Otherwise youll just end up with a dictionaries worth of descriptors for a story that runs this long.

Sena

I was just listening to that part the yesterday. Travis is a treasure.

Sena

Welcome back!

David Carr

Just sitting here at work, patiently waiting for the new chapter notification in my email LOL.

Kazren

Self Harm. Jason does that with his mouthing off just about every other day! I'm glad your home, safe and sound. Take care.

Param Rekhi

I would say Graphic Violence, possibly. But I don't think it qualfies as Disturbing Content

John Settler

I'm fairly certain that starseed implantation falls under Disturbing content even though those chapters have been stubbed. Also Messengers are slaves especially in recent chapters and they fall firmly under the header of Disturbing content.