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Removal of the Apprentice Tier (1€) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-06-12 12:48:35
Edited:
2023-06-12 12:51:27
Imported:
2026-06

Content

Hi Gals and Guys,

I've been experimenting increasing ninja subscriptions. Now that my map log is really large, giving away several hundreds of maps just for ninja subscribers that just give 1€ and go is a pain. I've had a leak of subscribers lately and my incomes dropped significantly. I don't know if it comes from me, competition, or another reason and I really need to know what you think about it. Are my maps less interesting or too few ? I need to find a way to live and to propose something patrons want.

Thus I decided to remove the apprentice 1€ tier. I hope this will prevent ninjas to raid my patreon and maybe encourage them to stay longer. I also hope current Apprentice patrons will join the Soldier tier.

PogS

Comments

roastedbeans

Man, I don’t even know what tier I was! LOL I increased to Legend, though. Maps are very important to me in my games. I first found you because you had a massive set of maps for DiA which I had just started running. My DiA campaign is almost over, but I like your collection of maps. I DM entirely in the Nine Hells, so anything for that theme is welcomed. I can find nothing for my games below Avernus. There are a few for Dis and Cania, but for really odd ones like Malbolge, Malodomini or Stygia, I have make my own on Inkarnate. You can use other types of maps for layers like Minarous because it’s like a swamp or Nessus because is a wasteland. But it’s Hell, so it should have an otherworldly quality. They are hard to find. And there is absolutely nothing for Baatorian cities such as Malsheem in Nessus, The Iron City in Dis, or Kintyre in Cania. But, I’m building them slowly. That’s my input, and thanks for your work.

Peter Gorbert

I think you might have lost some people by talking about using AI image generation and adding it into a $15 tier. AI is extremely unpopular in the artist community. I see you point about accessing all those maps for €1, I’ve come and gone over the years and tend to stay subbed at a lower tier to see what maps get released, but I’m probably out if it goes up

PogS_Props

AI is a tool no more no less as Photoshop was in its time. Artist will adapt their way of working for the better as always. This is a false debate in my opinion. Those that are against AI are mostly people that never used it and see it's interest. Artist can work faster and better using it. They will adapt their workflow and learn how to take advantage of it. Some will stay working with pen and papers and that will be a different thing. I believe there will be room for both in the end. For example paint artist didn't disappear with the arrival of computer graphics. I am sure there will be one point where IA will be able to generate cool battlemaps and this will be a cool thing for non artists that want a quick map but if you want something really precise you will have to tailor the IA to your desire and that will still require time. So there will be room for more and more complex maps using AI.

Ryan Rogers

Since you asked... :-) Don't shoot the messenger lol. TL;DR.This is almost certainly a mistake, but it's done. I wish you had sought the advice before choosing to leave this money on the table. First ninjas, or what I call "dine and dash", is only a "pain" because you let it be a pain in your mind. It is not costing you money. In fact, it is adding to the bottom line. Plus, what about all of those Apprentice subs that weren't churning out? They are just...gone now. Obviously I don't know how many, but there had to be some. Will enough come back at the Solider level to offset the loss? Most likely, no. Dine-and-dash is a fact of life and cannot be eliminated, and policies to reduce it almost always result in lower overall revenue. For example, limiting your backlog. NEVER do that. It's a TERRIBLE idea. Just terrible. These ninja / stealth subs are an *opportunity* loss, not an *actual* loss. Trying to fight them by offering less or charging more is the wrong approach. This is not the way. They are not the reason your revenue has gone down, so why chase that as the problem? Think about it: if the impetus here is revenue is down, and these guys are adding to your revenue, and dining and dashing has INCREASED, is that the problem? No, it isn't. It's a symptom of the problem. Regardless, that tier was actually helping your bottom line, and now it's gone. These *new* ninjas were NEVER going to be long-term subs at your old offering levels, and certainly won't be at the new levels! Removing the budget offering isn't the solution. You need to stop thinking of it as costing you money, because it is not. Nobody is "stealing" from you. So many Patrons get this wrong and let it bug them, and it is holding every one of them back from thinking clearly. They're not the enemy. They're adding to the bottom line. They are a necessary evil. Instead of increasing the cost to entry, you need to instead focus on what it could take to get them to considering staying...and increasing the monthly bill is sure as hell going to have the *opposite* effect. Then there's the "foul taste" factor for the rest of the subscriber base, some that already have a foul taste after seeing other money-grubbing actions over recent months. Did you every think that perhaps those tactics, such as adding a new product to ONLY to top-tier, and then releasing ANOTHER top tier above that, could perhaps level a foul taste in people's mouths and result in churn? I submit that is far more likely the real reason for your loss of revenue than ninjas. Because, as established, the fact is ninjas don't cost you!!! At all. They are a fact of life, and IF you want to convert them...increasing the cost sure as hell isn't the way. Adding value is. Again, ninja's aren't an economic drain. You are letting them be a mental drain. They add to the bottom line. Thus, you need to look to the other reasons as to WHY they aren't becoming long-term subscribers...and raising the cost and thereby increasing the barrier to entry is certainly not the way to retain them lol. The last few months have been replete with attempts to get more money, and clearly it hasn't worked. New offering (AI scenes to accompany maps...but added only one at the top tier), followed by a brand new even higher tier lol. I think it's honestly time to look that if these ideas has had the opposite affect by turning people off. Look to the results. Revenue down. Case in point, Morvold Press offers AI art scenes to accompany his maps, and HAS DONE SO, for over a year now. At all levels. He one day just started doing it. No fuss. No muss. Simply added the value and improved his offerings, across all tiers. You adding a new product at the top-tier only is not competitive. It had the opposite effect, which is why I suggested you add it into more levels. I believe it was a mistake not to heed that advice. If you are offering MORE product and revenue is DOWN, something is very wrong. After all...if revenue is down...what has changed? Think about it. It's not the ninja's. If the rate of churn is up, look as to what YOU CHANGED to figure out the most likely reason. In this highly competitive space, the way to grow is to offer MORE for LESS, and get word of mouth working for you, and not against you. This is why creators who offer a limited backlog are making a HUGE mistake. They are letting the ninja's get into their head, and LEAVING MONEY ON THE TABLE. Adding more top-tier options, without adding additional VALUE across the line, was a mistake. It "feels" right, but it's 100% wrong. It makes the MAJORITY of your customers (ie those not in the top-tier) feel like they are not being rewarded for long-term support. It makes them feel less appreciated. When they get big Patreon bill at the end of the month and decide it's time to do some house cleaning...you do NOT have given them a reason to feel that way. You did. This is the result. According to you, overall revenue is down. Which means you've churned more people out than you've converted upward to higher offerings. Which means their existence and how they've been marketed has likely backfired. That or else EVERYBODY is down in a global economic impact, but I know for fact that is not the case. Two of your competitors I'm subbed to have had banger months of growth. When you first offered the AI art (which itself has a negative connotation), I recommended you split the difference, and spread the value out across the upper 2 or 3 tiers. It didn't happen. You targeted the TOP TIER only, against my recommendation. Mistake #1. You then created a tier ABOVE that, again AI art, offering no value to the lower tiers, against my recommendation. Mistake #2. These had a predictable negative downward pressure, one which I predicted would happen (and thus why I made the recommendations), and instead of correcting them, your attempt to "fix" the issue is by eliminating the their for your most price-sensitive supporters, and removing them from your recurring revenue, and discouraging future ninjas which actually bring in revenue, and do NOT cost you money. Mistake #3. The biggest yet. AI art has a very negative connotation. That surely had an impact, especially if you charge for it. Give it away for "free" to everybody allows you to turn a negative into a positive. Just as others have done. ***How To Fix*** Create a "Introductory" new tier at the same level at Soldier, but with the old cost as Apprentice. Directly email market a "mea culpa" and let everybody know you made a mistake. Let everybody back in, until it fills up. Decide the number available based on how many long term (3 month+) subs you you just churned out. Then once full Soldier at Solider prices becomes the new tier. Undo the mistake. Get as many of those folks back. Then, going forward, ninjas pay the Solider rate. That is more than fair. The problem isn't that your bottom tier is $2.50. The problem is you killed the entire tier and dumped all of those long-term subs. You need to fix that, apologize, and get them back. Start offering more across the stack. For example, offer 1 "free" map per month that released under WotC Fan Content Policy. You can't charge for it. EVERYBODY gets the value. Less is more. You WILL make more money, even though you can't charge for it. There is a REASON why so many creators do EXACTLY this. It adds value. It brings eyes. Even though people can't be "charged" for it, they will "pay" for it by supporting you! Scratch their backs, they'll scratch yours. Start including your AI scene art which accompanies maps across ALL tiers. More value. Just as your competition does. Kill your top tier you created, and move that product benefit down to the two tiers below. Move all of those subs to the lower tier. So: EVERYBODY gets AI scenes to accompany your maps. Next to highest tier gets NPCs/Characters. Highest tier gets Monsters. Kill the highest tier you just added. In short: undo the 3 things you've done, and start adding value for everybod with a new public map that WILL draw eyes, and thus, customers.. If you had done this to begin with, you would likely have more revenue than you did 4 months ago, not less. Going forward, don't worry about ninja's, and FOCUS on preventing long-term subscriber churn. Focus on VALUE, and offering more for less, and more than your competition. That's the key to success. The rest will take care of itself. Also, you were right about one thing: you have a massive backlog. If you are not, you SHOULD be bundling these and selling them through multiple avenues. Your own website. DriveThruRPG. Roll20.com. Get them out there. Look at Heroic Maps for a great business model. Relying only on Patreon is a huge mistake that is leaving money on the table. Case in point: offering a map per month ONLY for sale on DriveThruRPG, but which you give 50% off coupon codes to ALL of your active patreons who have been active for > 1 month is a FANTASTIC retention policy that ALSO creats a new revenue stream!!! Another Example: That 1 free / public WotC Fan Content policy per month? After 3-4 months, you'll have an adventure full. Then, you can market them on DMSGuild, and again send a discount code to your supporters. Many WILL buy it because you are required to 'add value' beyond the maps. Most D&D adventures have "holes" that are missing maps, can you can add those maps to the bundle on DMSGuild to add value. This provide as way for you to, eventually, directly monetize what you "gave away" to your Patreon subs because FCP prevents you from charging for it. Hope some of this helps!

PogS_Props

- I never created the 15 € top tier as a matter of fact as few patrons were interested in it. - I already sell most of my maps on the Roll20Market place. - I have a huge backlog because I offered already twice as much content per month than the competition for more than 3 years. I can not and will not hold that pace anymore as I have my Valombreuse project on another side. - I consider that it is normal to reward my most paying patrons with exclusive content. I think lower tiers get already lost of content for the price they pay compared to competition. Am I wrong with this ? - Regarding the AI generated images it's not because AI generated that is worth nothing. Try to make a good image for map requires time. It is not a one click process. Of course you can generate an image with a simple prompt but generating the image you want that is another matter ;)

Ryan Rogers

Regardless of the facts (and I agree with you), perception is king here, and Peter is 100% correct. It's not about the argument. Or even the facts. It's about perception. I use AI art, and it 100% has it's place. But, you are fighting a PERCEPTION, and you aren't going to change it with logic. People are going to have a knee-jerk reaction to it the idea. It's why it was no unpopular. Again, the AI art for map scenes should have been offered to most, if not all, existing customers. It should not have been an upsell all the way to the highest tier. It should have, at a minimum, been offered to several tiers. Probably not Apprentice. Perhaps not Solider. But for sure the rest. Morvold Press offers it, for free, for EVERY tier. Why? It's a Marketing Visualization and it's AI. It's a selling point. It's not something you can or should charge more for, especially under the (false) perception of AI art. Your viewpoint, while factual, is NOT widely held among your customer base!!! It's something that should be part of the core product, especially with the PERCEPTION that it is AI generated (even though this still takes time). This is why I recommended what I recommended: bundling it with ONLY the highest tier was a mistake that 100% had a negative connotation. You ALMOST lost me as a sub over it as it is not consistent or competitive with your competitors. I'm SURE you actually lost other subs over it. Then, you proposed adding MORE AI Art to ANOTHER even higher tier. It was met with abysmal response, naturally. Again, I 100% agree with you...it has it's place. Augmenting value to your MAPS CREATOR ACCOUNT is one way to add value by providing Scene Visualizations to accompany your maps is a fantastic way to add value to ALL customers. However,. ADDING NEW TIERS OF CHARACTER ART which is not what the channel is about or what people came here for, and charge TOP DOLLAR for it, is of course not going to be received well. I understand it was never released. It didn't have to be for damage to be done. Perception is king.

Dan McLaughlin

The Hero tier is good for me as I use Roll20 and so I don't need hi-res. At the moment I have been using the DiA resources. Once that comes to an end I have a good stock of stuff for more D&D, For the other D&D that I will be going back to after DiA the following are useful- all in ruined/ancient from different periods and medieval battlefields, castles, farmsteads, fountains, graveyards, hamlets, inns, manses, religious communities, statues, towers, obelisks, stelae, tombs, towers, villas, wells, city building, towns and villages - all the usual stuff really. I don't play Star Wars but I may be able to use them for some other SF or Superheroes at some point. BTW I would like superhero type stuff like bases, city streets and so on which are good for SF too I guess. In general I'm happy with what I'm getting so more of the same. My only issue is there seems to be some posts which are only in the higher tiers (as I said hi-res is no use to me) like Black Frog Inn and hill town (if they are maps not pictures).

Ryan Rogers

1) I stand corrected on the first issue, but even offering it had the negative impact, especially on the heels of the other AI SNAFU. Whether you released it or not, the damage was done and people were put off. You need to look at things from your customers point of view, given that MOST people do not properly understand AI art. From their perspective, this is a maps account. You offer maps. That's why they are here. Then, within a short span of time you start offering AI scene visualizations o your maps. Great. LOW EFFORT in their eyes (and if it's not low effort compared to making your maps, something IS wrong). Regardless, perception. They know your competitors offer it for free. You instead added to to ONLY your top-end subs as an upsell. That's a problem, which is why I suggested you not do that. But THEN also talking about adding another AI thing which has NOTHING TO DO WITH MAPS, that was adding insult to injury. The fact you didn't end up actually offering it is moot. The perception was conveyed. Case in point: I assumed you actually started offering it. I knew I had no interest in it, so I never followed up. 2) Like I said, I don't know where you sell things. Roll 20 is great start. I'd strongly recommend DriveThruRPG as well. 3) Twice as much content != twice as much value. First, maybe by the numbers...but you offer LOTS of variants that are the type of variants that people actually don't really care about. As you know, the effort to create the first map in a map pack is 60% to 70% of the overall effort. The variants come cheap, if you do it right with your layering. Furthermore, you also dilute your content by combining Fantasy and Sci-Fi, which 4 out of 5 of your customers only care about ONE or the OTHER based on polling held by your competitors. Due to those facts, many of your competitors are now offering 2-3 channels: Fantasy, Space/Sci-Fi, and Modern, as SEPARATE Patreon accounts. It is better to have multiple accounts that you manage vs. multiple tiers which add more and more. 4) Yes, of course you should offer "exclusive" content to higher tier subs. This is the way. The key is, there may be more impactful ways to do it. More and different types of variants is a great way. Finished PSD is a great way. Offering lit and unlit versions is a great way. Offering clean vs populated is a great way. Offering seasonal variants is a great way. Foundry Integration is a great way. In short: higher value/quality maps, and less of them. I don't need 6 maps a month. I need 2 good maps that have the necessary variants to that I can fit them into my world, and I'll PAY EXTRA for those variants. I'll even turn on the PSD level for 1 month to see how well you slice and dice your maps. If it's done well, I'll stay subbed at that level, or maybe bump it to that level every few months to grab the maps I really like, but they need just a bit of work. More money for you, at ZERO EXTRA EFFORT. You already have the files. Note: even if you don't use Photoshop, the point stands regardless of tool used. These are how many of your competitors provide "exclusive" higher-tier value WITHOUT simply increasing the number of maps, and thus, with a smaller incremental effort. - Clean variants. (simply an export) - Unlit variants. (simply a different export) - Seasonal variants. (additional / swapped layers) - Asset packs (the higher tiers get all of the assets you created for that map) - PSD / art files - Foundry Integration That's how you add value. Not more maps with a scattergun marketing approach. More USABLE maps. With the AI scene visualization, your heart may have been there, but I think you could have gotten far more value out of it, given the connotation it carries, to simply give it to everybody vs. trying to use it as an upsell tactic to the top tier. I'd recommend you look back at your numbers that month, see how many conversions you got, vs the increased rate of churn. The AI scenes can 100% be used as marketing material, not only on your posts, but also emails, Reddit, etc. It will draw eyes. It will bring customers. By shunting it only to those paying top dollar, most of your customers aren't seeing it, and it's not really doing you any good, unless, it of course brought you a large uptick in subs at that level...

Lystra Pitts

Just want you to know that I love your maps, they are beautiful. For me the quality and quantity of your work is why I stay as a subscriber. You keep making new maps and the quality is always great. Keep it up, you might leak subscribers for many reasons, don't obsess over it, just keep making great maps and attracting new subscribers.

Silveressa

I've been using your maps for quite some time now, and my group's been very happy with them, so far we have zero regrets at staying subscribed at the Legend level given the quality of the maps is well worth the investment! (The unfurnished versions are especially handy given my players love for rearranging the scenery of any ship/building their chars own for longer than 5 minutes :P)

Sir_Dalagad

I've been using your maps for a couple of years now. We completed the Avernus campaign and most of my games have moved offline to in-person games where I use your maps less. Still, can't stop subscribing because your maps are great. Your volume of maps has grown to the point where maybe the patreon could be split into genres or something... like all the sci-fi stuff or all the low-magic stuff or all the high magic and fae stuff but for separate patreons or at least separate tiers. Dunno what to do about ninjas loggin in on the cheap for a month just to grab and go. Perhaps there's another format other than patreon that would be better to protect your work.