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Vecna: Eve of Ruin Review (Extended) (Patreon)

Published:
2024-05-25 12:34:13
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

PDM reviews Eve of Ruin and analyzes why high level D&D adventures are so difficult to pull off.

Files

Previews only

Vec No

Comments

Bagel-Man

Very excited to watch this professor!

Scott

I agree with Deathbringer on what the true eve of ruin is!

Drago Russo

I knew that this was not going to allow real combat against these mega enemies. In the first chapters it states in various encounters that XYZ is not looking for a fight, etc. I am going to run this but with a lot of changes. I want Vecna popping up in session two at the latest and to basically wipe the floor with the characters and then leave. I want him to pop up from time to time and remind them that he is evil incarnate and really powerful. I want them to hate him. So that means I have to probably get nasty by hitting a character while he is down and outright killing him. I think that the Vecna is scary is the best scenario for running this. High level characters are almost unbeatable.

MrGunn

Dear Professor: I hope you and your family are well, and your health is improving. I strongly disagree with your assertion that the designers of, Vecna: Eve of Ruin, have decades of experience. Amanda Harmon, the lead designer, is 30 years old and has produced almost nothing of note. On her LinkedIn she claims to have lead the design team for Paizo's Starfinder, but I don't know what this means. Only Mekenzie De Armas (a gross self-promoter, she claimed to have created the Deck of Many Things) wrote The Islands of Sina Una and Chris Perkins is a design contributor to D&D 4e and 5e have done anything of note, the remainder are unknowns. Authors experience in the industry: Lead Designer: Amanda Hamon - (Maybe 10 Yrs has gaps in resume) Designers: Makenzie De Armas (4Yrs), Ron Lundeen (6Yrs), Patrick Renie (4yrs) Editors: Judy Bauer (10yrs), Janica Carter (?), Michele Carter(?), Adrian Ng (6yrs), Christopher Perkins (20+ yrs) Further, Amanda Hamon and Makenzie De Armas are known LGBTQ activists (nothing wrong with that) that like to inject their politics into their games (this where I have a problem). The only agendas and politics I want to deal with at the game table are those found in the game world, and for sure not Earthly analogs. So given the experience level and creative resume of this crew, I am not surprised at all that this is not a very good module. From inside my own OSR echo-chamber, the general consensus seems to be Wizards has not developed much if any exceptional new content of their own, most of the content coming from Wizbros is derivative or recycled from old TSR material and even that is watered down (Curse of Strahd). The adage, they don't make'm like they used to, seems to apply in spades to Wizbros. It is my opinion the OSR seems to be the only source for original and innovative content and game mechanics today, even 3rd party 5e materials tend to be much better than Wizbros material. In closing, I want to thank you for this review. The review is timely, even handed, and objectively addresses specific issues, well done sir. Best, MrGunn PS They have to include a lot of fluff to justify the USD 69.95 (54.08 AMZN) price tag.

MrGunn

Indeed DB, bringing a veggie platter to the game table is considered the height of crudité.

Olivier Brassard

I really enjoyed BECMI's Test of the Warlords. If I remember correctly, its a 15 + level sandbox adventure. But I think we quickly took control of the scenario and mare our own story out of it. I am curious of what a rewrite of Vecna: Eve of Doom would look like in the capable hands of our good PDM?

The Mando Commando

I think players like the epic level content because these products are presented as games and are thus treated like games and with that synergy, players apply that classic video game logic

Rufus Lynks
>>138976034

Nice. Twisting the whole 'the lion is not concerned with the opinion of the sheep' into the pure entertainment of the character's suffering and death, not to mention doing it out of hand. I would definitely want some justice. I can only imagine the players' fervor you will drive at your table.

Rufus Lynks
>>138984694

In all fairness, experience is only one factor at best. The orginal designers had no experience yet we keep reverting to their works as references, baselines, but often as "the standard." I think WoTC, and any editor or hiring manager, ought to take a hard look at their slush pile (not to mention the world around them in general) to seek talent, or even genius. How does the quote go? "Talent hits a target no one else can hit. Genius hits a target no one else can see." Some of my best discoveries of skilled people have been by some sort of oblique observation and offering an opportunity.

Rufus Lynks

Funny how your video brings up the point, although not the first time, of epic adventure at lower levels. Two quick thoughts: 1. As children we have amazing adventures, and sometimes truly epic experiences that shape our lives. All with little skill or experience (levels ya?). The "epic-ness" of adventures tends to fade with age and experience, hence the adrenaline junkie that keeps going farther and faster until it is truly over for them. 2. The April Fools-ish new Shadowdark class of the Roustabout made me think about this topic in a serious way. No every adventure party will take on Vecna (not everyone is Delta Force), but someone has to deal with the local Baron, Count, Duke, or street punk who is a bully (thug, tyrant, bully bureaucrat) who fosters the little evils everyone has to deal with. Now couldn't those be epic adventures as well? At least in the characters' eyes and through the players' eyes at the table wtih a DM that drives that level of emotion and exciement? Thanks again for the insightful content.

Don Bakke

Video should be called "Vec-nah."

MrGunn
>>138984694

@Rufus Lynks Not clear on your point here? D&Ds original creators works are still standing the test of time. I guarantee you none of these numb nut 'designers' work will be remembered 50 years from now.

William Watkins

I have the book just the other day and started prepping for my groups first session with this for Monday. Couple of points, but I do agree with most of your review. 1. Yes it’s a railroad, but any group who’s looking to want to play this is going to be onboard with everything the NPC’s throw at them because it furthers their goal of confronting Vecna. The secrets, Vecna link and the charms they got from the prequel one shot tie them to Vecna in a lot of ways. 2. The lore is good for filling in the blanks once the party figures things out, fleshing out Kas helps with the “why” he’s doing what hes doing. 3. I have had many back and forth about how much I equip the party, lots of back and forth regarding what they wouldve found by 10th, etc etc. This is the real reason it’s a pain in the ass to me to start and run a high level campaign, all the “whataboutisms” that have been just relentless. I put my foot down and pretty much made everyone happy, but the main reason they have been big babies about the amount of magic items given at start is because of the perceived threat of Vecna, and they falsely feel like hes going to be involved from page 1. Once I put that fear to bed and to play as a 1st level character but with 10th level toys, everyone is finally ready to just roll dice and see.

Elvis Ramone

The best of the high level adventures there is one standard choice and two extracurricular entries. Earthshaker for BECMI had an interesting premise and interesting game play. You could turn it up or down depending on how you wanted the game to go. You could even allow one shot mechanics that could end the whole thing before it starts, if the players did not care for the surrounding countryside. In a campaign, yhea, leave the structure fragile and have the pc's deal with the consequences of their actions. For a one shot, oh boy, we blow up the right foot, ankle or knee, the colossus falls wiping out the city. May want to make the construction a bit more resilient. The first of the bonus ones is The Legion of Gold, GW1. By all standards any early Gamma World module is a high level D&D module. The scaling is insane, going by the DMG conversion rules the adventure is geared for about 13th to 15th level AD&D 1E. And it's pretty unforgiving, even the trash is at least 6 hit dice. The other is the Albuquerque Starport short adventure from the Gamma World GM screen. Let's see how clerics handle the Canopus Plague. Yes they take some shoehorning, but they are great for high level play. You have those insane tools, let's see how you use them. I would love to see an OAR remake of Dungeonland and Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, give them the Expidition to the Barrier Peaks treatment.

Robyn Derme

I agree with PDM, low-level play is 'epic'. I think that the players' "drive" for higher levels is rooted in MMO culture, like WoW. I remember wanting to explore the game and actually play it, while most of my friends in the game just wanted to get to the "End Game Content". I'd say that I wanna play the game and they would replay "End game IS the game." and I'd ask, "Then why did they bother to program all the rest? But now, when we play at the table, I've been told that I'm adversarial or not a good storyteller because I don't hold their hands and guide them through the adventures, and I don't shower them in Uber-Powerful magic items. I also make finding magic items for sale (except common potions or scrolls of cantrips or 1st level spells) in the local "Magix-Mart(R)". I've been a DM since I had the Holmes Basic Set dropped in my lap with the command, "Take it home. Learn it. Teach me (us)" back in the fall of 1979. B1 - In Search of the Unknown was my DMing tutorial. Back then D&D was a kind of modified wargame and that's how we played. But now, the MMO players want a thin story connecting Michael Bay-style combats. My current D&D 5e group is 5th level. I'm planning to dissect and modify Vecna: Eve of Ruin for them once they get to Level 10, I hope I can present them with a story that they'll remember. One point PDM made was that Vecna doesn't appear until the very end. I'm planning to insert cameos with The Big Guy arriving just too late to stop the PCs, maybe run a round or two of foreshadowing combat, and then have the PC dragged out. Because, if I let them fight Vecna at level 12 or 15 or 17, they'll refuse to flee a more powerful foe, and I'll be blamed for forcing an unbalanced encounter on them.

Steven Bogart

My group recently wrapped up a long campaign that took the characters from level 1 to level 20. We had some great high-level adventures, but they were written by our very experienced DM and tailored to the skills, interests, and limitations of our characters. It seems much harder to write a high-level adventure that works for any characters.

Ruben Benes

I recently killed a character in my Deathbringer campaign. She started crying, and both her and her boyfriend left soon after. She didn't bother rolling up a new character even though I specified several times that they should always have at least one backup. Hard core DnD isn't for everyone, but I'm going to run games that I enjoy playing. WotC are too soft, and it shows in the general playerbase. (Her character died to being decapitated by an Ankheg Matriarch, it ripped her head straight from her socket)

Telarr

RE: the Comparison with "Horror on Orient Express". "The Rod of Seven Parts" is a 2nd edition AD&D module/campaign set where the rod needs to be gathered and assembled to defeat Mistra the demon. Although that module was 1996.. The Rod of 7 parts WAS in the 1st Ed AD&D DM's guide as an artifact though

A Name Apart
>>139034342

In 99% of video games and 95% TV shows the main character does not perma die so I respect those that want a similar TTRPG first person experience

Daniel Defazio
>>138984694

Amanda Harmon was on Starfinder's team. She's an expert. I know people who know her. She's the lead, so get the credit (or the blame).

Gridlock350 Studios

Vec No, more like heck no! Amiright?? I’ll see myself out

Scott Mckay

I find I look at D&D stuff less and less my most memorable games have been CoC, VTM, Warhammer, Mork Borg, Vaesen and Blades in the Dark all push an avoid combat at all cost mindset but some folk straight up don't play anything else for different reasons. I have one player who is a single mother of 4 kids she doesn't have time to learn all the meta high-level D&D stuff she loved Mork Borg because it was a sheet of paper with everything she needed.

Tuska

Batman VS Superman? Which is more fun to be??? Batman hands down.

James M Spahn

This is so typical of Wizards products lately. High Level Characters do not immediately mean epic stakes, nor do they need to. I've argued for over a decade that (for example), Lord of the Rings is an epic campaign where no one is higher than 5th level by the end of Return of the King.

Jay
>>138984694

MrGunn, I tend to agree with your assessment as evidenced by your research and the product presented in this video. I see no metrics demonstrating sustained superior performance or genius by any means from those who produced this adventure. Clearly, there are many issues with the Vecna: Eve of Ruin just as presented here by PDM. Never-the-less, the sales data coupled with the opinions of those who purchased and played it will likely be the judge of that. I also immediately noticed the similarity between this adventure and Horror on the Orient Express mixed with a bit of The Multiverse of Madness, and a dash of Avengers Endgame. I'm not impressed and having been on this channel since the beginning, I'm certain there are some patrons right here who could make a more intriguing campaign. Your presentation of the work experience of those responsible reminded me of all the so-called leadership staff, hype, and propaganda surrounding The Rings of Power Middle Earth series and we all know how well that turned out for Amazon. Still, there will always be apologists who love to drink that Cool aid. Yet, there is nothing wrong with some liking things that others might find less desirable. Even if I thought this adventure were a good one, I can say with certainty, my players would not.

Jay

PDM, a very insightful and relatable review. I see precisely what you see in this adventure as well as the issues of high level adventures. Thanks again for all you do and hope your health is improving. God Bless.

Jay
>>139034342

LMFAO!! What did she try walking up a reasoning with the Ankheg? Sorry, it just struck me as funny. Sometimes players need to know that running is an option when facing a superior enemy. Also, they should know that death is not only possible but likely depending on your style of game.

Jay
>>139069448

Yep. I remember PDM discussing that exact same thing in a past video about low level vs high level adventures. Nice plug. it still hold much wisdom.

Rob Bent

Sorry deathbringer I am the guy bringing the vegie platter but people like it so =p

Rob Bent

I think high level adventures can work though making high level published adventure work I think is much harder. High level adventure I think needs to build off of what the characters have done up to that point. Meaning their should be more invested in what is going on other than just hey go do this or go save this. what are the character own goals what have they been working for or wanting buy high level the characters should have more invested and that takes the DM building something for them more than here is the next published adventure. So really a good way of putting it is I think high level needs to be more personalized and shaped to the players play style and power level of that game. That is why making a published high level adventure is so hard. the difference in playing with feats or no feats the amount of magic items and other thing can really become pronounced and trying to publish something to cover all of it I think may need to be done in a different way that it is currently being done.

Odysseus

We would LOVE to see guidance on which spells do, or do not, fit with DEATHBRINGER!

Daniel Gray Webb

Vote for Professor DM remaking Queen of the demonweb pits!

MrGunn
>>139034342

@Jay LOL, totally agree, RUN AWAY, is often an effective survival tactic. Unless this person was a child, I cannot fathom someone behaving like this, disappointed maybe...but boo hooing and leaving the table.

MrGunn
>>139124156

@Rob Bent Your post makes some excellent points, thank you.

Lemonsaurus

Apart from James bond movies are there any in particular you recommed for reskinning?

Terra Jones

I said in the facebook group. My theory is to approach the game like a superhero game. PCs don't bother crawling through dungeons anymore. Dungeons and high level powers don't work. What would people do in a superhero game? Superman doesn't wander through mazes, he does however have to fight carefully so the rampaging giant robot doesn't damage his city. PCs are jaunting around the world map, schmoozing with big players. But heavy is the head that wears the crown, the kingdom and people they care about are not so indestructible.

Sean Grimm

When my players want a "real challenge" I reskin White Plume Mountain and let the environment do the dirty work for me. For real, let them kick the door open on a vampire, in its lair, who knows they're coming. That always works out just fine...

Venomm12

I have never read a high-level adventure that works. Unfortunately, high-level play is on the DM knowing his group. I have ran numerous high-level (15+) adventures, but I wrote them. You have to be willing to put in the time to create something that works.

MrGunn
>>139268267

@Terra Jones Are you being sarcastic or serious, "treat it like a superhero game," isn't this heart of the criticism of 5e, why bother with a fantasy medieval TTRPG where all the PCs are overpowered super-beings, why not just play a super hero game like Mutants & Masterminds instead? At least a superhero game is honest.

Terra Jones
>>139268267

I'm sorry if I upset you. but yes I am being serious, I do think that because of how powerful high level PCs are, it might be a better approach to treat them as if they were superheroes and if you don't want to play a superhero game don't have super powered player characters who fly and walk through walls, either with magic or Kool-Aid man style and keep your levels lower. Directly taking on Orcus or the Terrasque is the work of superheroes rather than people who crawl around tombs looking for money.

Cee-Jay

Giving the WOTC folks the benefit of the doubt... I wonder if they know darn well that these adventure modules don't actually work well as adventure modules... but that's okay because that's not the only thing they are used for? Take my oldest child for example... he has most of the 5e modules even though he has zero intention of ever running them. Instead, he LOVES the lore, the story lines and the various scenarios that could potentially unfold. He'll probably love the Vecna book and couldn't care less that it's actually not a very useful module from a DM standpoint. Heck most of the WOTC 5e modules are very laborious to DM with, yet people love them anyway. And when I used to run 5e with my kids, they much preferred to play short homebrew or 3rd party adventures to the official WOTC stuff. At least at my house, the modules aren't really thought of as adventure modules!

Megatron

I thoroughly enjoy the extra detail in the stat blocks but I agree they should be strategically positioned in the book for easy access and they should include a basic combat stat block that is reduced to the essentials.