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Masterclass 11: Systems (Patreon)

Published:
2021-10-16 12:01:01
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

PDM breaks down the strengths and limitations of the types of RPG systems: Ability score based, Skill-based, dice pools, diceless, etc. Before you start tinkering with your favorite system (or start work on your own), watch this.

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Masterclass: Systems.mp4

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Comments

Chris Baker

Have you ever seen the Ubiquity system? It's a dice pool system, but avoids the cons you presented, minus the thrill of rolling a nat 20.

Randy Pytel

Quick note about Pendragon. While it is based on Chaosiums Basic Role Playing system, its actually a D20 roll under system, that uses opposed rolls, with best success winning for combat. This helps solve the roll under binary problem, and I've used it for other situations than combat. Take climbing for example. An easy wall may have a resistance of say 8. A player with a climb skill of 15 is probably going to defeat the resistance most times. However, if that wall is smooth and covered in oil, the resistance might be say 20, making it far harder to defeat the walls resistance. A crit is the number of the ability/stat, a fumble is a 20. (Alternately, you could use a f**k/Yeah D20, if you can find them. This helps solve the oddness of a nat 20 being a fumble.

Randy Pytel
>>69905845

The thing I like about ubiquity, is since is a 50/50 chance for each die, you can use any dice, counting evens as success and odds as fails. Also, because of the binary nature, you have the option to round successes. This streamlines things alot in the case of a skill check that for example requires for example 3 successes. If you have at least a die pool of 6, you can just take the average, and succeed without rolling,

Chris Baker
>>69905845

Indeed. I also really like the Ubiquity dice which simultaneously reduced the number of dice that have to be rolled and gets rid of the need to sort the dice--just add up the numbers and that's your successes. Ubiquity seems very OSR to me, but obviously not d20 based.

Randy Pytel
>>69905845

Too bad the dice are no longer available. you can however home brew them using blank dice. I also did this with a D20 that emulate 5 dice.

Chris Baker
>>69905845

Actually they are...I sell them. After the patent expired, I had a couple thousand made.

Jay

MIGHT BE IMPORTANT! This video is not showing up on the standard Patreon feed as I have multiple subscriptions. Not sure if others are having this issue. It's only showing when I click on the Dungeon Craft page by itself. The only reason I found this video is because of e-mail notifications.

Ryan Szesny

Roll under systems modify difficulty with modifiers, typically, same as roll over systems. The wall is slimy and hard to climb; +3 to your climb roll. 7E Call of Cthulhu uses 1/2 and 1/5 values (calculated ahead of time) for 3 levels of difficulty with what is basically the advantage/disadvantage system if you want some micro-modifications. It really isn't that different than a roll over system. The math doesn't seem as familiar, but most people running the game don't actually know much about statistics and get the math wrong all the time anyway. The devil you know. I would say that a nat 20 is not as exciting as rolling 153 with a d4 on an exploding die system, but to each their own :/ Using an established system is also a two edged sword; you have an audience, but you run the risk of getting lost in the crowd and forgotten about. We all have our favorite D&D module... but do you know who wrote it without looking it up? Did you go out of your way to find more things that they wrote? Did another module put out for the same system by the same brand live up the the level of quality of the one that you loved? Usually, no with most people; they just go for another D&D module... that is why the D&D modules and campaigns are all over the place as far as quality. It is hard to set yourself up as being exemplary so a big audience doesn't mean they are your audience.

Grendel

As @Ryan Szesny said, a roll under system can still be modified as needed by the dm.

MrGunn

Ahh HAH, we can nab PDM , now that he is without his +2 tweed jacket and his tie of authori-tay, and force him to DM for us! GAH, he has a vorpal boxcutter, RUN... ;)

MrGunn

I fully agree, rolling polyhedral dice like d20 are more fun than just rolling d6. However, the only issue with rolling 1d20 is that it is very random, rolling two dice creates a more consistent bell curve. The easy thing for the DMs to remember with d20 is that every 1 is equal to 5%, DC10 is 50%, DC15 75%, DC20 is 100%, moving up or down is easy.

Jay

Yeah, I’m really not a big fan of the D20 anymore. Doing research on dice probability and statistics has changed my mind on the D20 completely. Rolling a natural 20 is statistically no different from any other number on the die as they are all an equal 5%. Dice pools create statistical variation in each target number. For example, rolling 3d6 gives you a 50% of rolling a 10 or 11 while rolling a 14 has only a 16.20% chance. Variation gives dice roll target numbers actual meaning. Therefore, when rolling 3d6, getting a 9 has a 37.5% chance of probability when attempting to achieve a target number of 10 (50%) is a near miss and can be given a narrative failure rather than pass/fail. With the D20 all numbers being an equal 5% means getting a 9 instead of a 10 is no different from getting a 2. A miss is as good as a mile. Statistically it is simply a pass or fail roll. This is one of the reasons the Dungeon Dudes (YouTube) got rid of the natural 20 critical success and natural 1 critical failure rules. The rules regarding a natural 20 or 1 are arbitrary. Statistically you could say a critical success/failure on an 8 if you wanted. Using a dice pool getting a near miss should be treated as a narrative failure such as you pick the lock, but it takes an extra 5 minutes. This matters if the room is filling with water, or a ceiling trap is engaged. Can't logically do that with a D20. Never-the-less, PDM is correct in that it all comes down to preference in balancing crunch and expediting dice results. I’m leaning more toward Storyteller/Storytelling systems such as World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness, Cogent, Ubiquity (Desolation, Leagues of Gothic Horror, and Hollow Earth Expedition). Players roll a fist full of dice depending on their skills and abilities then successes are counted and compared. There are no +1 or +2 for this or that. Skills, weapons, items, etc. just add more dice. Its all-baked in. No static number increases making characters overpowered. Only incremental increases in probability by adding dice. Yet that’s just what I like at the moment.

Jay
>>69905845

FYI, Ubiquity dice are for sale on Etsy. I bought about 8 sets. See Etsy.com - GeekOrthodoxy - Unique Binomial Polyhedral Dice Set - D8s- Coin Flip Dice - Swirl Pearlescent - Set of 9 Dice/ Also, it's good to see I'm not the only one who enjoys that type of game system. Cheers!

MrGunn

Shouldn't this be Master Class 14?

MrGunn
>>69936687

A thought crossed my mind, I know you mentioned storytelling was your main focus now, and the vagaries around the probabilities of rolling a d20 is an issue, but you could always roll d6 and d10 which should create more of the bell curve you are looking for and still generate numbers between 1 & 20.

Jay
>>69936687

I think you miss understood. I mentioned Storytelling/Storyteller Systems. They are dice pool systems for game mechanics such as World of Darkness or Chronicles of Darkness by White Wolf and Onyx Path Publishing, Cogent Roleplay (Free Rules Online), and the Ubiquity System (Leagues of Gothic Horror, Hollow Earth Expedition, and All for One) to name a few. Thes systems all have similar mechanics yet does put roleplay over game minutia. Cogent uses D6 dice pools, Ubiquity uses any dice with an even number of sides, and World of Darkness uses D10s. They create a bell curve ranging from 0 Zero to all dice being a success. Both rare but not impossible. So 5D10 goes from 0 successes to 5 unless using the exploding dice option. Rolling 1d6 + 1d10 creates a range from 2 to 16 that isn't very intuative to your average player or at least not mine. Regardless, I thank you and appreciate your idea.

Randy Pytel

I personally like the roll under system. However, there is something baked into the psyche of gamers that a NAT 20 is a good thing, not a bad one. The CoC/BRP system of percentile dice is easy to understand, and with the different levels of success, you do get much of the same visceral excitement of a really low roll. While percentiles can be a bit stale if you have higher skill levels, using opposed rolls, or a negative percentile mod is easy enough to do. (I like to keep the mods to 10% increments for ease of play) Percentile dice are probably the easiest to understand. You dont need to figure out how much better chance you have rolling 5 dice instead of 4. Also, dice pools can get unwieldy in large numbers. For me, that was the biggest detractor to Shadowrun. To shoot a gun would take a dozen or so dice. Add in exploding dice, and then rolls to reduce damage, and the sheer act of picking out every success makes it an endeavor only the Count would enjoy. Ubiquity with its take the average mechanic does solve much of the dice bloat, and the Blades in the Dark System keeps the pool confined to 4 dice, taking the highest result which I also like. I guess the bottom line is, find the die mechanic that appeals to you and to our players, and that fits the feel of the game, and of course HAVE FUN!

Thig

'With every system you gain something, you lose something' - Perfect Do you ever play your WFRP hack? I know you love the WFRP setting, but even your hack is skill based, so is that just a labour of love to have made that? However, I say it is skills based but it is an element you covered very lightly, I think understandably. I'm not sure how I would handle career progression in that either, I suspect I would just have characters start in their career and then cobble together extra skills as they go, mainly because although I like the flavour of the career system, it is rarely reasonable to argue a travelling adventurer could carry off being properly employed in some career in most cases. I might allow skills from their career exits to be learned through contacts at a reasonable rate and everything outside that be more expensive. Then in some cases where it's justifiable through RP etc they might actually gain a career change and access to learning skills etc at a more optimal level Surely with the roll under system you as the GM can still tell the players there is a modifier for how hard or easy this wall is? Dice give you a sense of control, players are 'doing' something about their circumstances. All these other types of systems have a place, and are fun but they are a fun distraction that you return from, back to your home territory. You gaming with Lindy will be so much fun. Great stuff.