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Vox Machina Are Murderers (Patreon)

Published:
2022-08-16 02:41:31
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

PDM analyzes Season, Episode 25, when Vox Machina nuked an old woman to hell. Is YOUR D&D group any more moral? Probably not. 

If you have trouble viewing this content, try viewing on another OS or device.

--PDM

Files

Previews only

Vox Machina Are Murderers.mp4

Comments

MrGunn

It's a trick, get an axe! Vox did the right thing, always waste the crone or the small child carrying the physics book. LOL great episode.

Flash Gorgon

I have to respectfully disagree. Players don't always play to win. Gamers play to win. For instance, some of the best gaming I ever did was with players who never played the game before and who knew almost nothing about the rules. They played the game as if they were in it, doing logical things, (or sometimes illogical things) that they thought made sense to them. All the bad games I ever played in were ones where the majority of the players were gamers. The players wanted to play, the gamers wanted to game. Big difference!

Flash Gorgon

I grew up with 1and 2e and multiclassing was simply part of the game. Lots of people multi-classed for "in world" reasons and the main reason is that the stock game sans multi-classing can't handle reality. For example, what class is Conan? What class is Elric? What class is the Grey Mouser? Yes, these are fictional characters but the point is that we live in a skill based world, not class based. Why can't a millionaire genius also be a great fighter? Why can't Zorro scale walls, hide in shadows AND be the greatest swordsman who ever lived? Why can't the pious Templar/Hospitaler use edged weapons LOL! If you want to eliminate multi-classing, then you will need to pump out dozens of classes every month just so that you can satisfy somebody.

samurguybri

Flash Gorgon hits on some of the Appendix N characters who are multi classed. I feel a lot of these are best answered with a background system, even if it’s really simple. Grey Mouser was an apprentice wizard, not a master. Conan and Elric are tougher. Conan, especially as he’s learned to do so many things( skills). I think Elric would be their own class: a Melnibonian, as he is somewhat typical of those peoples. To answer more directly what PDM was stating: It’s more fun in the GAME for players to have their own lane and places to shine. It also helps people know what to do when “the answer is not on your character sheet”. With multi classing came the response that the answer is more likely to be on your sheet, since you can do so much stuff. Perhaps it’s better to sacrifice verisimilitude of the fiction in the name of fun. We’re not Conan or Elric who travel with one other companion, it’s a troupe game.

Bryan Stephens

I think that players can have moments. I try to give each player a niche for his or her character.

Brent Norton

Great video. I couldn’t get into campaign one of critical role, loved the second, not watching the third. Maybe because Vox didn’t start at lvl one and it made me feel like I was missing something. Where as campaign two did. I agree that single classes allows individuals to shine. Blasters, tanks, sneak, heal while confined does give each player a specific job and speciality.

MrGunn

'That guy' yes indeed, those guys are why I stopped playing for 20 years. I mean he named himself Orion Ocaba... It is a game, a hobby, something to do not a life style, you don't see people running around living the Risk or Parchisi life.

MrGunn
>>89685059

Not sure I agree with you here. If you want a skill based game play BRP, Runequest or something else. No game is going to capture the verisimilitude of life, nor should it. PDM's whole philosophy is: it is a game you play to have fun. He dispenses with most things like feats and skills and boils the game down to its essentials. Want to play a Zorro character, chose the Scoundrel class and play Zorro. Want your Zorro to use his bull whip to grab the chandelier and swing across the room and strike your opponent, of course: make a Dexterity check and roll to hit. Want Zorro to cast magic, no problem, find some scrolls and make an Intelligence check. The rules are a framework, not immutable laws: rulings not rules. If you are having fun you are doing it right, otherwise choose something else.

Ron F.

This was a good video, but I think you hit on a better topic in the Bonus footage: Don't Be "That Guy." I can't remember if you've done that kind of video before but it's a great topic for you to cover. Who is That Guy? Why is That Guy bad for play? What to do with That Guy if you're the DM? What if YOU are That Guy?

Chuck Thorin

Great video. Yeah, there needs to be a "That Guy" episode. Here's another example of That Guy in Call of Cthulhu: Spends half an hour shopping and talking about the biggest gun that he can find because in CofC that's really gonna help. Multi-Classing: OK. I'm the outlier here. I like it but more the way it was done in older editions. It did come at the cost of less specialization and slower advancement overall. IMHO, it was about getting more options than neat abilities that stack to create the ultimate build.

Frank Matthews

I once had a “that guy” in college (dude turned out to be a giant piece of shit… who would’ve thought) so my other players and I the GM conspired to play the most ridiculous one-off game possible (sold to him as a campaign of course). Other PCs were one-hit killing multiple Krakens, calling gods down to the ship to help fight… on Level 1… and the dude got so pissed off he threw his arms in the air, grabbed his stuff, and stormed out of the room. Great night. One of my favorite sessions ever, despite the stupidity.

Bark Madly

Thanks for the video, PDM! I really enjoyed it. I think I just let a "that guy" into my OSE group. I'm thinking of redoing session zero and highlighting your "that guy" points. He keeps wanting to change OSE into a power fantasy, and I keep saying, "I put this game together to play a less powerful game and focus on creative problem-solving." Maybe I need to do that awkward chat with him, "I don't think my game is what you're looking toplay." Good food for thought! Take care everyone!

Flash Gorgon
>>89685059

Ben Milton's Knave is D&D without classes, proving that it can be done. Granted, Ben had the advantage of decades of material when he came up with his version. But this is beside the point. My argument is that PDM doesn't like multi-classing but if you remove multi-classing, you have to come up with tons of classes to fit every genre. This is surprising to me especially when you consider that PDM came from Warhammer FRP with it's career system which is essentially dual classing in 2nd Ed. Yes, you can simply pick a class that is closest to what you want and run with that. That's fine but since AD&D got rid of "race-as-class" you need something to fill the gap for how elves and dwarves work. For the elf, F/M works because that's how most everyone saw them. If you don't have multi-classing, you have to pick one or the other and that simply doesn't fit most people's vision of what an elf can do.

Flash Gorgon

In my experience with 1e and 2e games, almost nobody played a single class wizard. Why? Well because you kind of wanted something to do after you cast your one spell for the day. Same goes for the thief, because they needed to be a little bit beefier and have cool weapon and armor choices! Why did the cleric multiclass into fighter? Because swords! That and it was nearly impossible to become a paladin, so F/C was the next best thing. But all of this goes out the window in 5e because every character is a lot more useful and powerful at 1st level. Is this a good or bad thing? Beats me!

Daniel Defazio
>>89702464

Ooo. That IS a good topic. I shall rewrite it, and credit you with the inspiration and inlcude links to your YouTube channel. GREAT thinking! Question: is there anything in that part of the video I missed or any areas where I might improve/expand upon?

Bark Madly
>>89702464

Great idea, Ron F! I would love to watch that video. I think PDM's comparison to video games is a good connection there. Maybe a root cause is just a misconception that DnD is a pen and paper video game instead of something "medium specific" (i.e., people sitting around together working with each other, coming up with fun ideas). But hey, maybe I just haven't had the right power fantasy game experience yet haha. I hear War hammer Soul bound is more power fantasy. Maybe different games could make a group of That Guys fun??? (Hmm)

MrGunn
>>89707412

This is not the RPG experience you are looking for... (waves hand in front of player's face) ;P

Craig McKenzie

I agree about not allowing multi-classing because that automatically nullifies about 90% of ridiculous 5e builds, but my first character in 5e was a Shadow Monk, unfortunately I only got to 4th level before the campaign ended but my plan was always to switch over to Rogue to basically have a Ninja.

Jay

I agree with all of the points made in this video. Also, why I prefer to play skill based games rather than class based games. Typically, I don't see much power creep and HP don't increase. Thus, an melee strike, arrow, bullet from a gun, fire bolt, or grenade are all quite deadly. I also don't include overpowered items that can be bought in a market or that can be used freely without cost. Whether it be a Conan style low fantasy, Cyberpunk, Steampunk, Survival Horror, or whatever genre I don't typically see the power creep issue in skill based systems. Also, the characters improve in skills they actually use or train in rather than a block of abilities gained that were never even attempted to use or received training. However, the players playing "To Win" or take the spotlight is something I try to catch before the gameplay begins with new players. Still, it happens sometimes. FYI, I just started playing Skyrim and I've discovered the hard way there are consequences for killing or stealing or being in a building your aren't supposed to be in after hours. Unless of course your character is overpowered and you play like a psychopath murdering everyone. Consequences are usually, arrest, a fine in gold, time in a prison cell, or attacked outright by guards for not complying. I try to use that in my rpgs and without OP Characters it works just fine.

Adrian Webster

I think it can be a tricky balance to acheive, challenging your players while letting them shine. Attacking their strengths is a good move, but if the player earns a cool new weapon or power and finds it getting nullified they may grow frustrated. They need to have a moment to show it off and feel the progression then be faced with new challenges.

samurguybri
>>89698921

Well, it’s a bit of a lifestyle for me, since I’ve been marinating in RPG juice for 40 years! I’m a funky RPG pickle.

Kevin
>>89777565

Which skill-based games in particular do you have experience with?