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The Problem With Crunch (Extended) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-03-06 00:53:37
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

PDM talks rules hacks, mods, and talks granularity (aka "Crunch"). If you have trouble viewing this content, please try a different OS or device. Enjoy!

Files

Previews only

Crunch.mp4

Comments

Bagel-Man

Just got into a lengthy discussion about this yeaterday

Chuck Thorin

No worries, PDM. Shadowdark rocks!

Scott Spears

Thanks for the thoughtful video. Our group of 4 players spent 2+hours on one big boss battle and it's 5 minutes between my turns. I want to try Five Torches Deep. I like the lightness of the rule set.

Flash Gorgon

PDM quoting Chesterton in the first 60 seconds made my day.

Andrew

It's an interesting conversation regarding crunch. My take on crunch is pretty simple--if a rule supports easy and fluid actions and reasonable options, and feels realistic---it's very much worth it. If not. ditch it.

Flash Gorgon

We used to start new D&D games all the time at level 1 and invariably got tired or bored or whatever by like 7th or 8th level. This was terrible for wizards who were just starting to get good and fighters were just starting to get domains. My group got tired of starting over all the time so we just made a bunch of 9th level characters and took them up to the low to mid teens and it was a blast! But yeah, it was insane for the DM to keep up. Every big bad guy had to have some flavor of anti-magic just to last more than a round or two.

Elvis Ramone

One summer we ran a 8 man Hero System Fantasy game. Over 8 weeks we had 3 or 4 combats. So much crunch I chipped a tooth.

Elvis Ramone

And do the right thing, the kids have a fine teacher. A breather after the OGL Debacle sounds like a good idea.

Flash Gorgon

Speaking of crunch, it seems that PDM is using a lot of skirmish like mechanics like you get from games like Warhammer, Mordheim, etc. What's interesting is that my group took a game called Confrontation that has hit locations, armor reduces damage and other "crunchy" mechanics including a "death spiral" and we turned it into a pseudo RPG. Sure, the point of the game was mostly to set up a skirmish scenario, but we were able to take these high powered characters and mow down dozens of NPCs in a pretty reasonable amount of time AND have a great time!

NØKKEN_WAITS

You're a busy man! Way to go the extra mile for your students. That makes a really big difference in those kid's lives (I had a teacher who did that for me). These videos are really inspiring, always makes me excited to get back to GMing

Justin Watson

+50 points for Chesterton's Fence Reference.

Matthew Crismali

Always enjoy your take on the game and this video is no different. Also, I'm impressed by the GK Chesterton quote.

Matt W

Really excited to introduce some "rules light" styles to my table. It seems so much more versatile and creative for DM and player. Thanks for the video and good luck to you and your students.

David Nelson

A point that gets overlooked in the discussion is AGE. My table is a group that ranges from 45-68 years old. They don't want to pour through books for spells let alone obscure rules on inconsequential nonsense. Rules light systems have brough a certain amount of vitality to our game. We were playing 5e and I couldn't get the Cleric to even read his spells He just knows the spells from 1E. TLDR=Too long didn't read. Having them on one sheet (Deathbringer) has been a big save. Now he can play in a more meaningful way. As we long time players start to age out it rules light is perfect and much more enjoyable.

Bryan Stephens

I don't find the issue to be crunch as much as layered rules the issue. As big Hero System fan, I found things much easier. Everything is right there using the same rules. You know just what a power does because the power it built. The work is not done at the game table but before you get to the game table.

RUNEHAMMER

brilliant insight on soak.

Jason Sunday

Tiny Dungeon is another D6 system that has no ability scores. You would roll 2D6 and on five and six you succeed. It has advantage (roll 3D6) and disadvantage (roll 1D6). It has few hit points and flat damage. It uses traits to make characters different. Traits can give you extra hit points, give you advantage and disadvantage in certain situations, allow you to cast spell, and more. I don't think DM Scotty "stole" from Tiny D6, but there are some similarities. Like you said there are only so many ways you can make a die affect a game and you are bound to find game in a similar rule space.

Avishai Menashe

As always, great views about the roleplaying Since I'm also writing a system, that last part about being accused of stealing mechanics is something I am pretty afraid of for when I finish and release it. Hopefully people will enjoy it

Craig McKenzie

We have second Christmas too, but it's Spanish Christmas (December 6), so usually I get to eat tons of good food, we usually have some friend over as well.

Matthew Cacy

I like simple mechanics to keep gameplay fast, on the other hand there is a level of crunch I enjoy. I think there is definitely a line for oversimplifying a game. The type of game definitely influences this. For example: in a one-shot simplified rules are a boon to make sure the scenario is completed in one go. Ultimately like anything else, it's up to the group. Great vid as always!

Rhett Burgess

All three of my groups that I DM for prefer a higher level of crunch. They thoroughly enjoy the options and the subtle differences. I respectfully disagree with PDM on this topic but to each their own.

Ben Waters

I like the idea of higher crunch games but in practice my groups don't learn the rules well enough for it to be fast so I've moved to rules-light stuff.

SJBehindtheScreen

when you say you have a 'dungeons & dragons game' coming up, does that mean deathbringer, basic, 5e, or does it vary by table?

jnlsn family

My group started simple and we have built to complexity over the years, like reverse Jenga.

Daniel Gray Webb

It's a great video and I like this title better. Don't worry about going slow you got a lot of important stuff to do, I'll still be here hanging out.

Ajax

The EZ6 idea is very similar to Heroquest, a d6 has 6 sides, three sides are skulls 50% chance of success, two white shields 33.3% chance of success, and one Black Shield 16.75 % chance of success. You could actually run a good DnD game using the Heroquest rules to adjudicate any given situation. There are a vast amount of ways to use them by varying the number of dice thrown. Heroquest uses each skull rolled as a hit doing a point of damage, target responds by rolling white shields to block damage. Fewer hit points, more dice to throw as you progress or obtain better equipment, there are an infinite number of combinations, and NO MATH other than counting Skulls, White Shields, and Black Shields, think about it.

Carl Dettlinger
>>103433147

A d20 system without ability scores is Warlock! by Fire Ruby Designs. It was created as a fast play system to do Warhammer Fantasy.

Jay

PDM, I agree with the vast majority of your take regarding crunch. Really enjoying EZD6 at the moment and supporting Kelsey for Shadow Dark. Take care with your busy schedule and as always look forward to your next video.

MrGunn

Hey PDM, love the graphic, but are there any potential YouTube TOS infringement issues with you using the trademarked mascot of a cereal company?

Brian Leet

I like crunch, but this video is a great example of why I like your channel so much. You provide an excellent summary of the trade-offs between options. For me as a gamemaster, the crunch provides me with more to work with about the ‘physics’ of the particular game world. It’s also a factor that I’m very facile with the math side of things. I do see my players get bogged down occasionally, but we navigated a 5E campaign from level 1-15 with players who were mostly new at the start. I’m intrigued by what I’ve read of Pathfinder 2E recently as it seems that so much of the complexity is tucked into character options which can be assessed out of and between sessions. In that way it reminds me of CCGs like Magic. Not for everyone, but a rich experience for engagement between sessions for groups who want that.

MrGunn

Loved this video, as a recovering grognard, I have come to embrace your philosophies on more rules impeding a good time.

MrGunn
>>103405009

Fantastic! Exactly what Gary Gygax did, he was a tabletop miniatures player, the inspiration for D&D came from his desire to impart flavor to his miniatures games. Sounds fun.

Tim Ford

"Can we play D&D without ability scores? And the answer is 'no'" Would love to hear the details why, if you get a chance, PDM!

Dustin Hitzing
>>103488056

As would I because I’ve been thinking of making a game that is just that. D&D with no ability scores or mods

Gridlock350 Studios

Realms of Elghrune is D&D without ability scores! It successfully funded on Kickstarter & is going to backerkit soon It’s entirely possible to play D&D without ability scores!!

jnlsn family

Uh....D&D without ability scores? Why don't you guys just join a theatre group?

Staffaramus

The fence analogy is a wonderful thought point to consider when making a change.

James C

First off. Mad props to you setting aside time for your students. My wife is also an educator working mainly with Title I kids and I greatly respect teachers who are willing to go above and beyond for their kids. I like a little crunch. But I did find systems like 3.5e to be too crunchy. But that kind of system works well for video games and I wonder if that’s the direction WotC wants to go?

Ghetto Gepetto
>>103460399

Those darn players! My current group is pretty good at picking up the rules, but I played 3E/3.5 for so long that it's ME that has the issue with 5E rules. I still get them mixed up. I did run a game at the LGS and definitely had that issue, since there were up to eight players and they rotated in and out of the game at random. This made it a nightmare on multiple levels. Several didn't know the rules and wanted to look everything up every combat. Eight people with half of them flipping through books each round? PDM would send Deathbringer after them in a heartbeat, but I had yet to discover the Professor.

Callias

when I think of crunch, I think of Aftermath. You don’t know crunch until you and a friend have spent 3 hours calculate one M16’s burst ricochet from a single missed attack. Ah Aftermath— you taught me in the 1980s that there is a clear line of too much crunch.