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Breaking News: ShadowDark Breaks $1 MILLION (Extended) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-03-26 12:54:10
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

Shadowdark just crossed the $1 million mark in less than 30 days and it will be an RPG game-changer. PDM analyzes how & why.

Files

Previews only

Shadowdark 2.mp4

Comments

Bryan Stephens

Quick note. You use the easy mode cooment for 5thed twice in the video.

Gregory Helding

To me, the most dangerous weapon a character should have is the player’s mind. I played two games of Shadowdark at Gary Con and it checks that box and then some. And yes, Kelsey is the real deal. She’s an amazing game master and wicked smart!

MrGunn

Where is my 🥯

The Tabletop Engineer

I have read, re-read, and then re-read the PDF Quickstart... and it is outstanding. Kelsey deserves this attention because she has created something that is going to absolutely be played at my table. And loved. If the GM (me) is in, the players will follow. I cannot wait to run this thing.

Matt Thompson

Some of the false accusations were based on the premise that she came out of nowhere. This is also false. She has a long track record of releasing successful and well reviewed 5e adventures that appealed to OSR gamers too. I first heard of her from tenfootpole.org as Bryce has put her adventures on his best lists. Doesn't get more grognard approved than that. I play-tested Shadowdark at virtual Gary Con two years and have been anxiously awaiting the release ever since.

MrGunn

Hmmm… and where is DB? I mean it’s not a true DungeonCraft video with out some pithy Deathbringer quips! Did you not pay DB this week?

MrGunn

Your video is interesting, basically your points are: Hasbroceana & WorstC are arrogant and out of touch, making mediocre products; whereas Kelsey has gamer’s pulse and has worked hard on her product, which is why she’s having so much success. There are differing viewpoints which are noteworthy. I for one enjoyed MaxH’s opposing view about the game on your pre-announcement post for this video. Max makes some observations worthy of thought. Personally, I think Kelsey’s success is due to a number of factors, good marketing chief among them. She has leveraged the YouTuberatti and community at large brilliantly, not in a cynical or malign way, just well executed; kudos to her. In closing, I don’t rank this video amongst your better ones and I am not sure exactly why. Perhaps because it is not self critical enough or is too complimentary, it feels a bit like apologetics, which is ok but I don’t feel you stuck the landing with this one. PS No DB quips are a big miss!

Ian Butterworth

Seems strange anyone would suggest the good professor was paid for the ShadowDark review. The body of Dungeon Craft work on YouTube has been promoting ideas and concepts that are also found in the ShadowDark game. It is natural the professor would a supporter.

Frank Matthews

Can’t wait to get my hands on this game!

Chuck Thorin

Yeah. "Easy Mode" twice and no Deathbringer? I stumbled onto Shadowdark back in 2021. Before the Quick Start, Kelsey had the whole Beta Rules up. I knew this game was going to be cool. And don't forget that Kelsey has a very generous Third Party License for Shadowdark. So I'm predicting there's going to be lots of support. Which reminds me, I need to get back to writing.

Brian Leet

I agree with the parts about the hard work and attentiveness to real gamers. I also agree with the criticism of the video about the 5E digression being over-emphasized and a bit unconvincing. I see three major factors in the overwhelming success: established reputation among certain groups; fortunate timing to garner attention looking for D&D alternatives; and a major product with a bulk of content (reflecting the years of hard work). I think if the system were just a twenty page digest it would get a bit of attention and adulation for some key concepts and then be quickly forgotten for the next OSR inspiration. The fact that she’s selling a fully thought through ecosystem of game, screen, adventures and what will clearly be ongoing support is a key factor in the attraction and success. It makes the aesthetics appealing as a game, not just a reference.

Jay

PDM, you’ve made a perfect review of why Shadowdark was so successful. By the way, Dave Thaumavore did an interview with Kelsey before the Kickstarter launched and a short summary can be found on Dave Thaumavore RPG Reviews on YouTube link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psC6J_9Sekc . The video is only about 4 minutes but links to the written interview and covers some great points for those making and selling their RPG games. Kelsey has some great points here for selling RPG products to maximize income revenue, what to do, what not to do, and I highly recommend it. You make excellent use of Occam’s Razor in your video. However, I have far too often seen people misuse that thinking of it as the simplest explanation or solution tends to be the best on. They forget the “all things being equal” part. Some subjects are far more nuanced. In the case of WoTC, I see the OGL debacle as not only as corporate greed, but Hanlon’s Razor also applies here. That boils down to never attribute to malice that which can best be explained by stupidity or ignorance. They are still reaping the unanticipated consequences of their bad decision making. Last but not least, I’m looking forward to receiving my pledge on Kickstarter as she had made a quality product. I also believe many might enjoy seeing you interview Kelsey on her success in the near future. A well earn congratulations is definitely in order.

MrGunn
>>104927580

I want to know if Questing Beast was paid for his review? Rumor has it, he was paid, if someone can clarify that, I would appreciate it.

MrGunn
>>104924146

I guess that happens to the best of us from time to time: now do try to stay alert going forwards won’t you!

Michael Penkas
>>104927580

I don't believe that Kelsey was very flush with cash when this Kickstarter began, so what sort of bribe was she actually offering to Dungeon Craft or Questing Beast (or any of the other Youtube channels that gave her positive reviews)? I'd love to hear a dollar amount for these alleged bribes, because it will be funny no matter the amount. She established a Kickstarter to raise only $10,000, so how much did she have in bribe money? Did she offer each channel $100? Does anyone think that these Youtubers would risk having their credibility lost for $100? Did she offer them each $1,000? Does anyone think that she had several thousand dollars on hand that she could give away for the POSSIBLE benefits that a positive review would bring? Frankly, the accusations are insulting to the creator, the reviewers, and this community. I wrote up a brief review for Black Gate and I'll say that I never received anything for it besides the Quickstart rules that are freely available to anyone (and which I believe is another key to this Kickstarter's success ... play before you pay).

knghtbrd

The biggest indications to me that Kelsey was going to be successful with Shadowdark has been her humility, her openness, and her responsiveness to feedback. Kelsey has no entitlement. The KS goal: $10k! She didn't join her Discord to thank everyone immediately as pledges topped $1M. She was in tears and had to pull herself together first. She actually LOST a bet on the KS topping $100k! And the product was "finished" before the KS began. We know what's in the product! Search Discord for Kelsey's posts. Someone asks a question and answers it, often with pics. She's posted almost all of it, a page or two at a time, in "final" form. I mean that, someone checked. We're missing only a few pages. 😁 Feedback: "Finished", "final", I said in quotes. It IS done. And as she posts it someone will suggest how it could be better. A moment later she reposts it and … it's better! Still ready to go to the printer today, but revised on the spot if revision improves it. Given that she's been doing this for three years, how could this game NOT be a success?

Scott Spears

Having just picked up Five Torches Deep and have backed Shadowdark, I plan on blending them a together for a game. There are aspects of both that I really love. Thanks for the video. Congrats to Kelsey too.

Graham Kane

What’s been irking me is that few commentators have been questioning the legitimacy of the overwhelmingly positive reviews. “It can’t be THAT good” or “it’s only getting good reviews because XY or Z.” When the truth is yes, it really IS that good! She just made an excellent game. There was maybe a little good fortune in that she Kickstarted it right after the OGL controversy, but I’d argue she made her own luck by putting out the video as PDM suggested.

MrGunn
>>104927580

Michael, I feel your passion and I appreciate it but just to clarify; I am not accusing anyone of skullduggery, I heard a about a rumor and I am asking for clarification. The rumor I heard: Questing Beast accepted monies to review or put Kelsey’s book at the head of the line, monies he did not disclose receiving, he then gave a positive review. Is this true?

Jay
>>104926458

What we can agree on is having our perspectives challenged by opposing points of view. In general, doing so may improve decision making, change perspectives, provide information that wasn't available, solidify opinions already formed or come to an entirely new conclusion. I always encourage debate. That is how the the legal system and scientific community attempt to find evidence or truth. However, such points of view should be viewed through an unbias lens as best as possible.

Kelsey (The Arcane Library)
>>104927580

(@Mr. Gunn) EDIT: OH! I just saw your second message. Paid to put it ahead of the line, money he didn't disclose, and a positive review? No, all of that is entirely false. That would indeed be unethical skullduggery. I paid Questing Beast his normal fee for an honest review, which he said at the start of his video. It was on the books many months in advance, and I did not jump ahead of anyone. His is the only sponsored review of the game. Sometimes I wonder who is even stoking those rumors at this point? Probably just bad actors, since the truth is out there in many, many places, and it's simple and unexciting, haha. None of it is true. "Rumor has it" is easily cleared up at the source: Me and Ben. Seriously, I hope folks feel they can always ask directly. I hope people *would* with these sorts of accusations that call our characters and ethics into question! It's too important to leave to rumor or speculation. So I'm happy to clear it up as many times as needed!

Chris Baker

Just got back from Gary Con! A good time as always.

samurguybri
>>104939079

A fairly long time DM of 5TD, here. hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Shadowdark looks really cool. We’ve got a sweet little subreddit if you’re interested

Jay
>>104927580

Congrats on your Kickstarter!! Well earned and look forward to seeing more from the Arcane Library.

Jay
>>104939954

Agreed. Haters gonna hate. Think its cool Kelsey chimed in and said she is open to question about rumors. Think that's a good place to start.

James C

Happy for Kelsey. Hard work pays off. I try to instill that to my kids as well with various degrees of success. And unlike others who want a quick buck, she now has a solid foundation to expand her work. It should be interesting where she goes with this. Like comic books, maybe this is the beginnings of the independent creator boom?

Adrian Webster
>>104927580

It is not "rumored". Ben explicitly states the review is sponsored in the video. The so called "rumors" make it seem far more nefarious than it is. Questing Beast does sponsored reviews and always states so in his videos. They are balanced in my opinion but some folks will find the sponsorship to be a bit too much and thats fair, but it is all open and up front.

Ryan W
>>104927580

I honestly don't care (most don't) about advertising cost. Nor if anyone "jumped in line", I just want a good product and enjoy gaming (again as most do). People pay to advertise all the time. The more you pay the better it gets, as well as one's relationship with advertisers. That is the way it is and always was, I've dealt with it for years in business and it's nothing new. As for those who toss around such rumors, maybe its competitors, or those who just like to gossip and attack. Maybe 1% are the true justice warriors of righteousness.

Daniel Defazio
>>104945413

Jealous. When I saw my friend Andrew Valkauskas playing with Ed Greenwood, Vince Vaughn and Tom Morello, I thought to myself, "Aaaaa! I could have been there!"

Daniel Defazio
>>104950607

I think this IS the beginning of an independent creator boom and so does Hankerin' Ferinale at Runehamer.

Graham Kane
>>104950607

It’s extending to other media too. The best movies now are smaller, independent productions. Same with comics.

MrGunn
>>104927580

Thank you, I appreciate, the response, I was honestly curious.

MrGunn
>>104926458

Thanks for responding Jay. I agree, listening to opposing viewpoints is important. Too often these days people fail to listen and angrily accuse each other of holding the ‘wrong opinion’ and are therefore morally iniquitous and therefore someone to be dismissed or worse shouted down and suppressed. Listening and agreeing are not the same, listening to understand and assuming the other person is sincere is something else, opinions and deeply held beliefs are very rarely changed by angry shouting.

MrGunn
>>104927580

@Adrian Webb Thank you, I appreciate the time you took to respond.

MrGunn
>>104929648

@DungeonCraft Hunting down YouTube fraudsters for sport I hope 🤪

David Gatt

Dragonbane and Symbaroum both have six ability scores with roll under systems. The TN being the value of the appropriate stat. There is no reason you can't have a roll over system with the lower stats being better. Dragonbane alters the TN by applying advantage/disadvantage to a roll. Symbaroum alters the TN directly with penalties/bonuses to the base stat.

Lee Caddick

Okay, you talked me into it PDM, just backed the kickstarter.

Cee-Jay

Great video PDM, and thanks for telling the whole story. Kickstarter just backed. And with the old-school design elements, I'm assuming this will be more or less directly compatible with my old Basic stuff, new OSE stuff and new DCC stuff. My take: Creativity and innovation come from scarcity... or put another way "necessity is the mother of invention". Modern D&D is becoming less and less fun because of too much abundance! Too many classes/subclasses (which actually makes them all feel the same), magic has become mundane, too many HPs and ways to stay alive, too many spells (the vast majority of which aren't used), too many actions, too many feats (which actually ends up reducing player's perceptions of their options... "if I don't have a feat, I can't do it"), too many resources including too much light in dark places, etc. Just too much... it slows the game down and makes it feel too easy. The old school games do a much better job of creating scarcity and challenge... but sometimes there are some tedious aspects to those games that deep war gamers enjoy but others find boring. The best of both worlds maintains the scarcity (including resource management) but does so in simple ways. WizBro just seems like they are focusing on the wrong things right now. Overall, my personal experience is that the adventures from Necrotic Gnome and Goodman Games (as just two examples) are of much, much higher quality on average than the stuff WizBro puts out these days. Not to mention stuff from even smaller creators... Castle Xyntillan, Deep Carbon Observatory, etc. Our 5e campaigns... they always got kind of boring after a while... whereas I've yet to play a boring DCC campaign! Death is always around the corner, anything could happen next, and most of the monsters you face are things you've never even seen/heard of before. For the rumors and such... I think a lot of it was just the timing of all the reviews. I'm not a conspiracy guy and ain't got nothing against people trying to make a buck (and trying to live their dreams!), but I admit it felt "off" to me seeing reviews of Kelsey's game from all the creators I follow at roughly the same time... and PDM rarely talks about Kickstarters so it stood out with him even more. I just haven't seen this with other releases in exactly the same way. But as a mostly functional human being, I simply asked PDM if he was paid, he said no, and that was that (so I agree with Kelsey's advice... people should just ask!) I'd have been fine if PDM was paid, I just want it disclosed (like with Ben). Shadow Dark looks amazing. She is having absolutely fantastic success with it. I hope Kelsey (who I don't know and have never met) stays open and positive and keeps grinding.

Cee-Jay
>>104950607

Yes, in old days the little folks had a heck of time raising funds, spreading the word and producing the content cheaply. In today's world, there are very low cost options to deal with all of those problems. The OGL debacle may have been just the push we needed. That said... 5-years from now it may be dang easy to get very, very high quality content from AI. Really hard to say just how wonderful on one hand, but extremely disruptive and painful on the other the hand, that technology will be.

Jay
>>104932796

Wow! A little jealous on that. So many have said what a great DM she is.

SJBehindtheScreen

Kelsey and her Shadowdark game are just brilliant. She deserves every bet of success because unlike a lot of noise there was about it, she earned every word and chart on those pages. And she sure seems to love the game and its community. I think more than WOTC being complacent is that WOTC is LOST. They don't know who their game is for, or what it's for, or how to build it. But they know they want money for it. Don't be surprised if they continue to suffer setbacks, and loss of good designers, as the market responds to designers and publishers who make them happy.

Michael Penkas
>>104927580

MrGunn, Sorry if it seemed like I was shooting the messenger. I didn't mean that you were personally accusing anyone of anything. It seems like, whenever someone is successful, there are people who immediately imply that success wasn't earned. And the rumor usually starts with, "My project wasn't a success and this other person's project was a success, so obviously this other person found a way to cheat the system."

Cee-Jay
>>104926458

Good to share opposing viewpoints. Even better if one can do so in a polite manner. MaxH comments would have better, in my view, if they provided more substance and less mocking. That's fine if MaxH prefers something crunchier and more complex, but no need to be rough about it.

MrGunn
>>104927580

@Michael Penkas Thank you for the clarification. I think some took umbrage and believed I was trying to say or start something I wasn’t. I was just curious, think Hanlon’s razor not Machiavelli 🤪🤣🤓

MrGunn
>>104926458

@Chris Janak Thanks for reading my post and taking time to reply. There is a lot to be said for politeness but different folks have different styles, part of being a good listener is to listen for the message not just to the medium; which is much easier said than done😬🙂👍

Daniel Defazio
>>104985719

What's funny is I am friends with all those creators. We all text/IM each other all the time. But NONE of us ever mentioned Shadowdark to one another. It's always like, "When we meet--what are we getting to eat?"

Z Bird
>>104975473

8 attributes for Symbaroum, but good point. The roll under is easy to run especially since dice rolling is player facing.

Chad Wilkerson

Backed the heck out of this project. Super stoked to see the Zines that come with the level I backed. :)

Richard Maddalon

This was my first Kickstart. I feel I have chosen wisely.

Kerstan Szczepanski
>>104926458

It's just sad MaxH's comment was as vapid, shallow and cookie-cutter as his statements about Shadowdark. If only he actually said something detailed as opposed to empty aspersions.

Gregory Helding
>>105222213

Indeed you have. Careful tho. Kickstarting can be addicting and you need to watch out for those that are asking you to pay to develop a product vs those that are asking you to pre-order a finished or nearly finished product.

Elated Muse

I am so excited to see Shadowdark get so much Love! I didn't know of the RPG until the kickstarter. Though when I got Prof DM's review I was seeking all over to know more. When got to see it for a preview, I was super inspired. I love that it is dnd 5e lite and can be an entry into dnd 5e. I like to imagine it is the years of magic and sword in the darker days. before 5e which is the golden era where magic seems so abundant and lavish! I am looking forward to playing Shadowdark.

Randall Case
>>105222213

You do have to be careful and be aware of what you're doing. You're really not preordering anything. You're joining a bunch of people in funding someone else's dream. It might work. It might not work. If you're tight with your money then you should only fund Kickstarters that are for a finished or nearly finished product. Otherwise you do stand a good chance of losing your investment. In Kickstarter YOU are a venture capitalist. No more and no less.