Home
Creators
Search Recent Random
Posts
Search DMs Popular Hash Lookup Tags Random
Importer
Import FAQ
Register Favorites Keys Review DMs Logout
Community
Telegram ThePornDude
Home Creators Posts Import Register Favorites Logout

Stop Railroading! (Patreon)

Published:
2023-07-28 22:00:02
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:
haven't archived this post yet. have a subscription? use the importer!

Videos

Content

What it is, why is it, and how to fix it. PDM explains. 

Files

Previews only

Railroading

Comments

Andrew

I agree with just about everything said here. When I start a level one campaign, I almost always start with two or three different paths the party can take. Yes, I usually have a larger story arc in mind, but I have no idea how the party is going to go through that arc. Strangely, for those who remember S4 Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth is what gave me this inspiration. You never know what path the party will ultimately take to reach the heart of your plot. So I fill the world with foes and allies, and factions that are up for grabs, depending on the party's actions. What starts out as an A B or C choice is just what drops the party in the story web---it's up to them as to which strands of that to follow. Are they moving straight toward the center of the story or are they going laterally around the heart of the story, discovering different facets of what you have designed? I have no idea until they tell me. Once they are in an encounter area, I can plan ahead more, and the longer they decide to remain there the more depth to that region I can add. One thing that is always helpful, even if it's more work is having multiple evil factions going after the same thing, or at least finding ways of stepping on one another's toes. In my current campaign, I have four main evil factions, each one trying to be first to bring a lich lord they all once served back from the void the last set oh heroes overthrew and banished many years ago. So far the party has found just the coat tails of two of the four main factions, and they are about to stumble across the third of them.

Ian Butterworth

"Remember, the games are about the people, not the rules, the dice, the weapons, the kill, no. People are the game." - Frank Mentzer

steven bray

Month 3 of waiting on my Deathbringer shirt

Bingo Mastermind

Professor, do you plan on doing a dedicated video/ publication of Slaughterus Maximus? I’d love to see the Deathbringer take on the sword & sandal genre

Adrian Webster

Good video. I also think your bonus content from this one deserves to be its own youtube video. expanding the discussion of the problems of adapting literature to modules and adventure design would be a great video in itself.

MrGunn

But everyone loves the choo-choo

Chuck Thorin

Maybe The Tempest? Anyway. My RR horror story. Playing a paladin. The party is in a magic boat in the middle of a lake of lava. I discover that the magic sword that we just found was the vessel of a powerful demon lord. I decide to just throw it in the lava. The DM has me roll to hit the lake. Really? With a 17, I somehow missed the lake that we in the middle of. Need I go on...

MrGunn
>>114028020

Whhhhhaaaatttt! Roll to hit a lake of lava?!? LOL Destroy the boat? A clever RR DM might say, you toss the sword into the lake of lava it sinks out of site, and an instant later it re-appears in your hand, searing you for d8 damage....

Kristen Solindas

Discovering The Alexandrian changed my life. I've always been one to have loose plot lines and let the players meander where they will, but node-based design was an epiphany. Now, I use the advice of Guy from How to be a Great GM, and his OGAS was a good start, Occupation, Goal, Aspirations, Stakes. But I added Knowledge and Items (KOGASI), allowing plot hints to be found on each NPC, either in the format of an item or just talking to them. This means I don't have to do much after prep to get players hooked onto any one of multiple plot lines, and timing events gives a sense of urgency. I call it "guided winging it", and it's made my job as a GM so much easier.

MrGunn

Brilliant advice and a great video, at this rate you are going to talk yourself out of a job. Now, let's talk about MacDeath / MacBeth. Regarding MacBeth, Act 1, Scene 5 is about Lady MacBeth goading her husband to do evil: "do I fear thy nature; It is too full o’ th’ milk of human kindness; To catch the nearest way." MacBeth's wife is the cause of his downfall and clearly showcases the anti-female and contemptuous view that Shakespeare had for women in general, most women in his plays are the source of strife. Regarding Frankenstein, I see the creation of a bride as also anti-woman. Why does the Monster just assume his 'bride' is going to want to be with him. After all, wouldn't this created woman want the freedom to choose her own mate? Maybe she falls in love with the Doctor, maybe she likes other females or is an ace or is just not ready for a relationship. Who knows, the point is the assumption on the Monster's part is that this created being would be for him is arrogant, narcissistic, and seeks to remove the 'brides' agency by forcing a relationship on her. A pox on both the Doctor and his Monster's houses!

NemoOh

Was just looking some 4e modules from Wizards, complete railroads.

Jay

Anyone else out there please let me know your thoughts on this? If I understood PDM’s previous live stream video regarding the elimination of “shoe leather” he recommends skipping player interactions between predetermined scenes. He gives examples such as glossing over any NPC interactions with merchants and servants by asking player what they want to buy or what info they want and giving canned responses such as “They say no and will give you no information about that”. Then recommends pushing toward scenes such as speaking with Munchburger and being given a forced ultimatum to push the players toward a quest. “Are you in or are you out?” is a surely a choice but not much of one when pushed into the room and players given no other clear options by the GM. Don’t misunderstand me in that I can see what PDM’s getting at here to keep the game moving but let’s be honest. Many players who prefer the social aspect of role-playing might see that as ‘Railroading”. So, it’s interesting how the “Stop Railroading” video speaks of player agency yet some of that agency is clearly being taken from the players in the interest of advancing a story agenda by “removing shoe leather”. Again, I can see some value in it to a degree, yet it is undeniable that “removing shoe leather” may also be removing some player agency in a form a “railroading”. Clearly, this is a difficult balance of what players want to do and what the GM wants the players to do regardless of if it is in the interest of advancing a story or any other reason no matter how well intentioned. Am I the only one who sees this or am I part right or just completely mental?

Jay
>>114035036

Some interesting points as usual. By-the-way, if you watched PDM's live stream this month I would like your take on my post below for a sanity check.

MrGunn
>>114069689

@Jay I hope all is well with you. In reading your response, "So, it’s interesting how the “Stop Railroading” video speaks of player agency, yet some of that agency is clearly being taken from the players in the interest of advancing a story agenda by “removing shoe leather”." You are not wrong and it is a valid observation. However, you may have overlooked the part about the type of dungeon design PMD prefers. The Professor states clearly that he prefers a closed matrix style of dungeon design, see XDM 2, pages 25-27 for details. Basically a closed matrix is a flow chart dungeon design with several branching Yes/No decision points, usually leading to the same climax. In a matrix design the PCs have a limited agency to choose different paths, A, B, C, etc with differing outcomes for each path. The restrictions on PC choice are the 'bumpers' or blockers to PC action either hard or soft imposed by the GM that result in the varied outcomes. Of course players can go way off script, which is where a good GM will manipulate things to get the players back on track, while giving the illusion that it was the player's choice all along. There is an implicit social agreement when players sit down to play, they are agreeing to accept the menu of choices offered by the GM, as PDM has stated; the GMs job is to be a conflict generator, not a story teller. So the question is, does offering fewer choices and putting 'bumpers' on player choice remove some player agency, yes, you are correct, by removing the 'shoe leather' some player agency is lost. However, the benefits far out weight the downsides. I agree with PDM, pointless encounters that do not advance the story are boring. Personally as both a GM and a player I have always hated it when players and GMs wanted to waste hours of my precious free time to haggle over the cost of torches and a mule. I mean why go imaginary shopping in a fantasy game, why not just go real shopping and talk to clerks at the Mall? In real life, I order most things on-line so I don't have to put up with all of that Mall nonsense. If your players enjoy shopping excursions and interacting with unnamed 'movie extra' NPCs and the epic tabletop encounters they wish to tell their friends about consist of; "What an awesome game session! My character got half off on all their torches and a great deal on a gently used mule." and you as the GM enjoy a, "Great Deals in the Market Square" campaign, go for it. However, I as a player prefer to tell my friends; "What an epic game; "Our characters slew the fearsome dragon plaguing the land, rescued the princess, got knighted, and found a hoard of treasure." As a GM I prefer to run a 'Dragon Fire: A Kingdom Aflame' campaign. So yes, one could argue some player agency is lost by removing shoe leather, matrix dungeon design, and forcing players to focus on important named NPCs. However, don't you lose some agency when you go to a Steak restaurant and the menu does not have chicken? Did you come for steak or not, the GM's menu of choices is the same, did you come to slay the dragon and rescue the princess or go shopping. In conclusion, Jay you are not mental. Yes there is a bit of dissonance between PDM's videos, however, I think you are spending too much mental energy reconciling the minutia here and missing the big picture. The big picture is PDM's advice is about focusing the players attention, giving them enough agency in the form of several viable choices to not feel forced onto a particular path of the GM's choosing and not bogging the game down with detail that does not advance the story, to create a more cinematic, faster flowing, more fun gaming experience. PS, if you have ever played Fallout 1 & 2 or Mass Effect, you can see what I am getting at about how player choice works in a matrixed game

Jay
>>114069689

“The Professor states clearly that he prefers a closed matrix style of dungeon design, see XDM 2, pages 25-27 for details.” Yep! I have the book and know the material, so I absolutely did NOT miss that. A closed style matrix is in essence a Railroad. The flow chart gives the illusion of choice, but all roads lead back to the same events and end game. Players could not, for instance, avoid the planned adventure hook altogether. All roads eventually take the players back to Castle Ravenloft regardless of the choice to go to the burgomaster’s home or the chapel first. There is no option of leaving Barovia avoiding the preplanned plot of the story. “The GMs job is to be a conflict generator, not a storyteller.” Correct! Yet in a closed matrix the adventure the GM is still forcing players to hit all the milestones and events. The illusion of choice is which event they choose first. Choice A might lead to Choice B or C yet Choices B and C will eventually bring them back to choice D or E. There is no way out of the matrix to avoid the milestones and events in Choices A through E regardless of the events that happen within Choices A through F they will always only lead to other Choices of A through F. Furthermore, there are players who may wish to break out of the closed matrix simply by making choices that might take a character to places outside of milestones A - F. So the only real choices they get are what they do while at each milestone and those could also be further limited such as dismissing players ability to speak to servants while at Munchburgers place. “So, the question is, does offering fewer choices and putting 'bumpers' on player choice remove some player agency, yes, you are correct, by removing the 'shoe leather' some player agency is lost. However, the benefits far out weight the downsides.” Pushing the players back into those milestones of A through E is fundamentally railroading and the term bumpers in this context are just soft language for course corrections by force. Bye-the-way, every authoritarian dictator uses language like this. “For the greater good of public safety, we must remove your freedom of association, go to work, or ability to leave your homes until this contrived crisis is averted. Yet, I digress. If you choose to play this way, who am I to judge. However, I see the GM as a facilitator of agreed upon rules rather than an authoritarian. The GM uses impromptu skills in setting the scene and creating NPCs. The GM also collaborates with the players as a fair and impartial adjudicator not just with mechanics but with the story. So, if the players choose not to go to the caves of carnage they shouldn’t be forced to. “I agree with PDM, pointless encounters that do not advance the story are boring. Personally, as both a GM and a player I have always hated it when players and GMs wanted to waste hours of my precious free time to haggle over the cost of torches and a mule.” Agreed! Yet this is still forcing players down a particular path so you must concede this is railroading to a degree and can see a bit of hypocrisy, can’t you? It’s just railroading for their own good. Lol “However, don't you lose some agency when you go to a Steak restaurant and the menu does not have chicken? Did you come for steak or not, the GM's menu of choices is the same, did you come to slay the dragon and rescue the princess or go shopping.” This one made me laugh a bit as I know these type of people. Never-the-less, this is a strawman argument my friend. Players are told they can make whatever choices they want. They won’t be limited to any menu items otherwise they would be playing a board game. “In conclusion, Jay you are not mental.” Wanna bet. Lol “Yes, there is a bit of dissonance between PDM's videos, however, I think you are spending too much mental energy reconciling the minutia here and missing the big picture.” Nah, I didn’t miss the big picture. In short, Railroading is bad except when the GM doses it in a closed matrix style system. Right? Actually, I just thought this might be for good discussion about the contradictions between some of the live stream and this video and ya didn’t disappoint. “The big picture is PDM's advice is about focusing the players attention, giving them enough agency in the form of several viable choices to not feel forced onto a particular path of the GM's choosing and not bogging the game down with detail that does not advance the story, to create a more cinematic, faster flowing, more fun, gaming experience.” Yep! He was clear about all that. Summed up - Give them the illusion of choice so they can NOT leave Skyrim, Ravenloft, or the constellations of Mass Effect for something they find more interesting. Also, railroading is bad except when GM doses it for "good reasons". Right? “PS, if you have ever played Fallout 1 & 2 or Mass Effect, you can see what I am getting at about how player choice works in a matrixed game.” Yes. Love those games! As previously stated, I understand the closed matrix system. TTRPG’s, however, are not video games with pre-scripted responses and limited menu choices of dialog or direction. However, they could be if you want that sort of thing. So, we do agree much more than we disagree here. There is some railroading going on whether agreed upon by all or adjudicated by GM outright even if it’s for the alleged benefit of all and regardless of how supposedly altruistic the rational might be. Thank you kindly for responding to my post above. I do greatly appreciate your responses and as always find your insight worthwhile. So, in conclusion, I agree with the majority of what you have stated provided the players and GM agree that is the kind of game they want to play. However, Players must understand in advance that the GM will use fade to black, rapid scene changes, and ask/tell players outright that the NPCs aren’t worth the chat or the market may or may not have the items sought in the interest of keeping the game moving. It’s a lot like a choose-your-own-adventure but your choices are still limited to the adventure book in hand. I have used this style before, yet some players were not so keen on course corrections, even the subtle ones. I realize my responses might have been a bit hyperbolic for the sake of being a bit jokey and fun rather than dismissive. Still, Again, I greatly appreciate your insightful responses. Thanks and have a good one.

MrGunn
>>114069689

@Jay All choice is an illusion, life is a closed matrix system leading inevitably to death…. ☠️👻🤣🤣🤣

SJBehindtheScreen

I DM a group that openly prefers "rails", and we've played through several published mega-adventures. But things rarely go the route the book says, even as they all end up in some form of the climax and story as written. I hadn't seen the closed-matrix model but unwittingly that's exactly the model we've used for years. And it works great for us.

MrGunn
>>114034248

@Kristen Solindas I liked your post, I have Guys book but only skimmed it. Can you give some examples of K & I from your prep?

Frederic Schmitt

I realy anyone GMing the railroad? I cant imagine that anyone leaves the players with no options at all. That would be very sad. I guess the greater danger is to make the players FEEL like they have no choice. Can you make a follow up on this? I sometimes end up saying in plain German "You have a lot of options. Come up with anything, and I will prep something accordingly." I think maybe I am doing something wrong sometimes. If my players are to shy should I give them options instead of just asking "What do you do?" .. but they are so experienced players. I dont know ^^ Still the best hobby on the planet, though it is hard to do the trick over and over again.

Kristen Solindas
>>114034248

It could be anything, like, where is the city cartographer, or, are there any local holidays coming up? Items could be the note that tells who the next assassin victim lives, or the key to the hidden vault.

Graham Kane

I think real railroading is extremely rare in a game and you'll know it when it happens. I think the problem comes from players not knowing what railroading is in the first place. Also, I think railroading is pretty necessary in some situations, for example; brand new players. If you don't railroad them to some extent they won't do anything! Especially if the players are shy or nervous.

Cee-Jay

Much of the perception of railroading lies in the the consequences (or reactions) the GM declares in response to player actions. If the GM (often using dice) dictates responses that are perceived as "open" to a given set of players, then it's not a railroad. And if the players perceive the world as too closed, as containing very limited, boring and/or otherwise displeasing reactions to their input, they may experience it as an railroad. In this formulation, it's clear that player expectation is critical. One group's dull, railroad might be another group's laughing good time. In my view therefore, this is something to discuss in session 0. For example, I have three kids, a job with a lot of travel and I'm running four games in three different systems right now. I don't have the time, nor the experience, to run truly open worlds. So basically I give the players a few options for where they will go next and then prepare whatever they have chosen. They understand that if they change their minds in the middle of the next session, I won't have much else prepared... yes I can improvise, but they'll have to be okay with some inefficient game play. Some groups might hate this and feel too constrained, but my players understand and accept that this is how it's going to work.

Cee-Jay
>>114154116

Yes, I think a common GM mistake is to start with "okay, you are in a village, what do you do?" and then basically wait for the players to figure out the exact right thing to do in the village to trigger the beginning of the adventure. Even experienced players can struggle with this, if the GM is inexperienced.

JoePest

I’ve followed PDM’s lead in adapting works of fiction; one of my fav’s is the classic Twilight Zone episode The Howling Man in which Satan is held prisoner in a monestary and a visitor is tricked into releasing him. I’d like to see PDM tackle that at some point!

virtuadept

Best way to avoid railroading is to NEVER PREP PLOT. Just don't do it. Do not ever make up a "story" where the players must decide something a certain way or the game goes nowhere. A lot of pre-written adventure modules make this mistake right out of the gate to set up the adventure. Really GOOD pre-written adventures only set up story ELEMENTS and not a story. They have "what has happened before" (history of the adventure), "what is happening now (very recent history)", and the Who's, the What's, and the Where's. And that's it, they are basically just a sandbox that the PC's get dropped into and can decide what they want to do in them. That's how you should run an RPG, just have a few antagonists, a bunch of other "normal" NPCs with their own agendas and "lives", and maybe a few "helpful" ones, and a map, and maybe a few encounters ready to go IN CASE the players show up at the right place and time to do them. And that's it, let the players decide where to go, who to talk to, and what to do about it.