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D&D Historian Says Golden Age of TTRPGs is Over (extended) (Patreon)

Published:
2024-01-12 22:00:05
Imported:
2026-06
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Videos

Content

Ben "Slaying the Dragon" Riggs and Mike "5E" Mearls published opposing essays about the state of the TTRPG industry. Professor DM reads them both and weighs in on very specific points. This video is lengthy but thought-provoking with LOTS of bonus content. 

--PDM

Files

Previews only

D&D Is Dead

Comments

Bagel-Man

Excited to watch PDM!

Gregory Helding

I think Ben is conflating the success of 5E with the success of RPGs in general. Yes we need a market leader, but we don’t need everyone playing the same game to have a golden age.

Gregory Helding

Guac is extra. Make it rain son. I haven’t laughed that hard in a while. Thank you!!

Timothy S Wattigny

Thematically, MCDM is "Cinematic, Heroic Fantasy"; mechanically, it is "Tactical" so I don't object to that game as such. However, also with no disrespect to Matt Colville. I'm not his target audience. I'm a dungeon-crawling, sword & sorcery type.

SpeakingBeast

I think the money will still flow, just not in a concentrated stream to any particular company. As an avid backer of projects, I have been trying to settle on a system for 2024. Otherwise, I'd buy content for OSE, ShadowDark, Pathfinder, 5e, etc. Not only can my shelf not take it, but there's just not enough time in the day to read and play it all with my groups. Definitely feeling the system fatigue haha Despite all that, I'll be backing Deathbringer! ;)

Ernesto

Hi professor, excellent vídeo like always, and I'm looking forward to the deathbringer crowdfunding campaign. About the MCDM rpg, by heroic the mean the PC power level, you aren't just slightly more capable than a peasant. The PCs can be evil if they want , so far there is no game mechanic that prevent it. Also, I don't think that makes sense having a debate about the semantics of the word "heroic". MCDM is using heroic for power level and not necessarily for heroic acts. And about tactical and cinematic, I think that you can have a highly tactical game that is also cinematic, IDK why people correlate cinematic with rules light or narrative game, for example, I have played Warhammer fantasy which is a very crunchy and tactical game, and game mechanics like hit location enables a very cinematic combat, you not longer have to imagine where do you hit, the games system tells you that. I'm my experience game systems without hit locations burden the GM and players with the task of describing and imagine for every single hit how it was, which no ones does most of the time, and a game mechanic like hit location serves as a improv promt that you can use to much more easily describe the flow of the combat. MCDM has mechanics that allows the tactics to also serve as an improv promt, like all that attacks that can move the target around. You not only just atack and hit, you hit and slam the goblin to a wall for more damage. It is ok if the MCDM rpg is not for you, but that doesn't mean that it's key words aren't valid or are in conflict with each other.

Ernesto
>>126844365

And that's no disrespect at all Matt had say several times that they will like to make a dungeon crawler rpg and that the MCDM rpg is not that

Firstspear

Great video Prof. I think you nailed it when you said that there was an ongoing Renaissance - all the variety and energy behind alternates and indies. The challenge is in how one thinks of 'Golden Age' and how it is defined. If one thinks about TTRPGs as a D&D monolith - then yeah, I think it's over. Just like the 'Golden Age' of Britain, Greece, or Rome is over. If you think about Golden Age as the adoption and proliferation of TTRPGs in general - then I don't think it has passed. Regardless, I feel your term, Renaissance, is a better descriptor of what we are seeing. I'll be backing you on KS (although I'm starting to hate that platform) exactly because of what you said - supporting the community. It's why I'm on Patreon. I don't need ANOTHER game system, but I want those people and the community to succeed.

MrGunn

Stand by ion control.

A Name Apart

How can critical role best utilize the popularity of their show to sell their upcoming TTRPG? I was thinking that perhaps they could mash together the concepts of (1) their show, (2) a rival party of adventurers (3) an after show for their live play where they provide a Daggerheart home session for people to play linking the previous live play session with a related adventure for the rival adventuring party.

Frederic Schmitt

I am a faithful John Harper cultist anyway 😁

Don Bakke
>>126845959

I watched all of the "Making the Game" videos Matt put out and I thought he put his finger on the pulse of the various problems that exist with traditional D&D and deritive systems. I can say that at one of my tables, Matt identified many of the issues that make the game to be a slog...and that is *with* several hacks that I have adapted from PDM himself! I'm from the PDM generation and can say I'm optimistic about this system and will give it a chance.

Christopher Capone (Wicked Cool Games)

I tell people all the time we are in a golden age now. I agree with Professor about the small scale creators. I’ve only just gotten started.

Justin Watson

I think the edition war is likely to be even more inane and ubiquitous. I’m 40 and people my age and younger think, “agree to disagree,” is tantamount to high treason wherever there’s room for disagreement.

Kaz Faren

Right or wrong, Ben Riggs' article was very entertaining.

Kaz Faren

Also, I guess I would differ with PDM on one point. I could easily understand what Colville probably means by "heroic". After all, Deathbringer aims for a "Grim Dark" vibe and I don't have trouble figuring that out either. Certainly, the players choices ultimately determine whether they are heroes or something else. However, the game system itself, its mechanics and character options create a 'feel'. I mean, there is a different feel between a game with a "paladin" and one with a "plague doctor", no?

Frank Mitchell

As someone who spent most of his gaming life outside of the D&D world, I can only laugh at yet another "death of the industry" announcement. (Film as 11, as they said back in my day.) Has Riggs ever heard of _Traveller_, _RuneQuest_, _Pendragon_, _Champions_ (now Hero System), _Ars Magica_, GURPS, Fate, _Vampire_, _Star Wars D6_, _Savage Worlds_, _Tunnels & Trolls_, _Warhammer Fantasy_, or _Numenera_, to name some (OK, most) of the games I've played? Some of them are nearly as old as D&D; I played a little less than half of them back in college. Shifting systems isn't that hard. We did it all the time. To us in the shadow of The World's Most Popular Role Playing Game(tm), players who play only that system and think variations on it are new and exotic (or scary and dangerous) are simply baffling. Sunk cost fallacy, maybe. So if older folks have time to digest 400 and 500 page books they can switch between MCDM RPG, Daggerheart, TotV, D&D 5.x, and whatever else comes along just like we do. Or they can come outside with us weirdos and play something one can fully explain in 32 pages or less.

Frank Lee

It is funny that Hasbro targets middle aged men with their toys, and WotC targets young women with their roleplaying games.

Chris W.

Amazing video. Thank you.

Eric Mason

You might want to reach out to those that knew her and clarify the pronunciation of Jennell Jaquays' name. I've heard a few different versions now, and it's a nice/respectful thing to check how that person said it. (A branch of my maternal grandmother's family adopted a wild pronunciation of their name so I tend to check with people whose name I've only seen in print...)

Mike

Thank you for covering so much of the business side of the industry.

SJBehindtheScreen

LOL, "make it rain, son!" I think it's such a great point about the market, older (more senior?) players feel disrespected by wotc, and also now have the money to explore lots of other games. As a youngster, we just didn't have money to support a market or an idea, at least in the way of paying for it. My group was already tiring of 5e, but when wotc assaulted their paying customer base, all 6 of us immediately dropped it and bought DCC, PF2, and a few others. And we're having fun. So glad to see you do a vid on this topic, PDM. Really good take.

Mark Hanson

As always, very thoughtful and well spoken video. Thank you Professor.

Matt Thompson

I can't believe we got a King Gizzard & the Lizard Wizard reference! PetroDragonic Apocalypse was one of my favorite albums of '23.

James M Spahn

If I had to conjecture, I'd say they're both partially correct. The closest thing I can compare the the OGL Kerfuffle of '23 to is the release of D&D4e. So many people went "WTF?," but In the case of the Kerfuffle (as with so many sequels) THIS TIME IT'S PERSONAL. In the wake of 4e we saw many folks try to grab that market, but it was Pathfinder that came out on top. You didn't end up with one group over here playing D&D4e, another over there playing PF, a third group somewhere playing Vampire: Dark Ages, and a 4th group somewhere playing WHFRP. You really had two groups: Pathfinder players and 4e players. There was a sprinkling of people dedicated to other games, but for the most part gamers seemed to pick a side. I think you're going to see one of these fantasy heartbreakers (MCDMRPG, Pathfinder Remastered, and TotV, among others) come out on top and then you'll have two groups: Those playing D&D 6e/1D&D/WhateverTheHellTheyCallIt and which ever one of these heartbreakers comes out on top. Like the 4e era, you'll have pockets of support for smaller fantasy RPGs (which is honestly where I think Daggerheart will end up), but you're going to have The Big Two: D&D (simply for market share and exposure) and one other fantasy heartbreaker. But what do I know? I could totally be wrong.

Adam

They have been claiming its dead since it came out. It might change, but books bought are bought. If we have to copy it with a pen we can do that. What these younger players like the author fail to remember are the 1000s of TTRPGs that were not D&D that were out back in the day. Then in 5e came out and all of them forgotten. Shrug. Dumb Doomsayers striving for relevancies that is all this is.

MrGunn

The debate is amusing but does it have any relevance to my gaming life; no. I did not pledge the MCDM Kickstarter. Colville’s RPG’s premise and mechanical choices are not for me, furthermore I find him to be an insufferable blow-hard, and the first and last product I ever bought from MCDM took forever and was defective from the printer. To the 5e D&D only and future WizBro 6e fan kidz; F’ WizBros, get out there and play something else, do you really like eating Taco Bell for every meal, how do you know if you never tried anything else? To the cos-players and E-boyz &girlz: Halloween is over! PDM I guess this is all industry relevant news, but honestly who cares. You gotta do a video on this, but I don’t gotta like it. Ion cannon control out. Long live the rebellion!

MrGunn
>>126909513

@James M Spahn Ya damb right it’s personal, F’ WizBros, F’ the dragon they flew in on, and F’ that under-monetized witch they brought to the prom!

NØKKEN_WAITS

Considering how flourishing the indie scene is... I don't think the "golden age" is ending. I think a very different age is dawning. THE AGE OF THE ORC! I mean, I can;t be the only person out there who loves seeing new systems, settings, etc getting published and shared on discords etc. Thats part of the fun of the hobby. At least for me. I love both Mork Borg and Shadowdark. I love DCC and Pathfinder. Ive been trying out powered by the apocalypse as system (wow what a rabbit hole). I still play 5E! IDK. Just cause Hasbro keeps shooting themselves in the foot doesn't mean the hobby is going to go into a dark age.

B. J. Boyd

“Make it rain, son!” Had me laughing out loud.

Jay

PDM, thanks for all the work you put into this one. In my opinion it hit the mark. In short, I was nodding in agreement through most of the video. Then you stated " A game can't be heroic but your players can ...or they can be War Criminals ...like my youth group. Struck me as so funny I almost spit my food out. So the take away is don't eat and watch Dungeon Craft. Might choke. Again, thanks for the the great content regardless of all the set backs it was still worth the effort.

Jay
>>126917228

Yeah, I checked out some of Colville's videos when the game hit Kickstarter. That being stated I will take the high road and not crap all over the game or his content regardless of how many zealots, bots , or fans he might have. He does have a few good ideas and advice from time to time. Yet a broken clock is also right twice a day.

William Watkins

I do like the contrast and breakdown of what both authors have to say, and I believe(as I feel the Prof feels), that the argument is going to lean more towards Mearls side of things. Things are going to be rosy for sure, but Riggs seems to be playing the town cryer role a little too loudly from what I have been able to see. I think he may have been sitting down at his keyboard and absorbing too much of the smaller cliques of content creators gripes.

Justin Watson
>>126909513

You could absolutely be right, James, but I think maybe we're more likely to end up with a multipolar set up this time than we were in the early oughts. I was nowhere near as online when the 4e/PF split happened, but I think one of the reasons you ended up with two major camps rather than a plurality is that Paizo was in a uniquely strong position over the other 3/3.5 content creators having created material for the Dungeon and Dragon magazines for years and having the staff and reach to match. Today, I don't know that Kobold really has an edge over MCDM over Ghostfire Games over Darrington in the long run. And then you've got projects like Shadowdark coming off the ropes. Some of these new games will certainly fall into obscurity, but with indies having more power than ever to reach the audience, crowdfund, etc., I don't necessarily think that particular bit of the history will absolutely repeat itself. I think D&D will remain the largest game, whether it should or not, but after that you'll have several smaller camps.

Justin Watson
>>126938702

Heroic is both more in the classical sense (most of the Greek heroes, when you read their myths, did stuff that almost certainly would make them villains in our eyes) and refers to the effect PDM references in a few different videos--feeling like you're superheroes rather than pulp heroes. Captain America and John McClaine both shoot and punch their enemies, but one feels a lot more grounded and vulnerable while he's doing it while the other feels like he's, well, a superhero. Not necessarily invincible, but certainly immune to a non-dramatic death. MCDM is leaning into that style of play, where heroes are throwing around massive damage and absorbing the same. Which is not an argument that you or PDM should LIKE it, just that it does make sense as a label, and stands in contrast to Gritty, more vulnerable, less capable PC style play. I like both, personally.

Grendel

Dan, you are awesome and a real class act. The respect you pay to people who have contributed to this community is really commendable. Your insights are invaluable. Great video and great stuff as always!

Jay
>>126938702

Howdy Justin, I hope you are doing well on this fine day. Although I do appreciate your comments, the explanation wasn't really necessary as we were never in disagreement. I happen to be fairly well read and also agree with what you have stated above. I also have a solid grasp of most forms of media, cinema, and literature. So short story long, I was making no argument as to whether MCDM's game was a Heroic style of TTRPG or otherwise. Although, you must admit the use of Heroic in label, style, genre, or what have you, doesn't necessarily transfer to Heroic in action by the players. Sometimes it’s the most innocent looking once who are the secret villains. Anyway, in my post above, I was simply addressing PDM and all the effort put into this particular video along with the humor of his youth group essentially being a bunch of murder hobos. More often than not, I try to do my homework on things prior to giving an opinion. It seems there is much less time these days but still try. So, full disclosure, I ‘m trying to be as fair and impartial as I can in my opinion of MCDM as I have recently stumbled upon some things regarding Collville, that if true, I would find appalling. However, more homework is required and regardless, whether true or not, I find such things have no place in comment threads. The point is I’m trying not to be biased even having uncovered some potentially ugly stuff. As for the MCDM game itself, I understand the type of genre, setting, style, and mechanics of the TTRPG that MCDM is going for and its not terrible. He seems to be borrowing, as many of us do, from various other sources and I can appreciate the effort those working on this project have put into it. I was on the fence about funding the Kickstarter however I didn’t find enough of the current material to be all that appealing to me or my group thus far. Perhaps my opinion will change once more material is made available or a proper review is done once the final product is released. If not, it may still have some good rules or ideas worth borrowing. I find most games are rarely 100% useless. Dungeon Coach is still working diligently on DC20, and this guy gave up his teaching career to do this full time. I think I’m more likely to fund DC20 and DEATHBRINGER simply on principle. PDM and DC listen to their patrons and fans, always keep an open mind, look for ways to streamline game play, and aren’t snobby about any of it even when given criticism or push back. They are better men than most I know in that aspect. DM Scotty is also one of the good ones. EZD6 has been a real hit with my group. Ok, I’ll quit babbling now….

Jay
>>126940208

I agree, Riggs may have jumped the shark on this one. However, if the economy keeps getting worse his predictions may be correct. Even PDM will have less expendable income to "make it rain" and that means less TTRPG's purchased.

William Watkins
>>126940208

I don’t honestly see how the economy will continue to or feel like it’s going in the tank. Things accelerated after Covid and I believe and see in stocks, price of oil, and most grocery items that it’s starting to even out. Jobs market has been on the rise steadily also, and I don’t believe the Prof’s generation(and mine) will be seeing a significant pinch any time soon. So guacamole for everyone!

MrGunn
>>126938702

@Justin Watson. “I like both”?!? Now who is the heretic! 🔥🔥🔥🤣🤣🤣

MrGunn
>>126940208

@Jay and less guac 🥑 🤣. Guac it helps Chipotle slide into your belly.

Steven Fader

Great video PDM! I am actually pretty excited for the times, I see D&Ds 5e's success as simultaneously good for the hobby, but also stifling for it. D&D has sucked up so much of the oxygen in the hobby for too long, it will be good to have other smaller companies and projects get a chance. I don't see things going back to "one person in their garage creating things" as anything but good since a lot of the best parts of our hobby came from that style of business. Will be interesting to see how things develop, but I personally think we are starting to see some real innovation outside of a few areas in the OSR which is kind of nice.