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May 2017 Q&A (Patreon)

Published:
2017-05-06 04:49:29
Edited:
2017-05-06 04:49:47
Imported:
2026-06

Content

Ian and I plan on filming our monthly Q&A Monday.

We'd like to make this one old west themed if possible.  Please submit any questions that fit that guise before Monday morning.

Guns, history, tech...whatever, just old westish.  

Thank you as always!

~Karl

Comments

Andrew Donoghue

In the old west how available were firearms, in particular, was the choice in firearm more or less determined by whatever the local shop happened to buy, particularly when it came to ammunition, or was ammunition sufficiently available that you would be able to purchase pretty much whatever firearm you wanted and still be able to shoot it??

Tyler Miller

How often was alcohol involved in famous old west gunfights?

Andrew Donoghue

Another question, not old west related so don't mind if it doesn't make the cut, what has been the firearm you most regretted buying?

Mike Christie

Would a cap 'n ball revolver make a good home-defense weapon today? Assuming you had a cylinder all loaded and ready to go! I'm especially thinking on lack of over-penetration and sheer shock-n-awe value.

Sheldon Ross

Hi guys love the work you're doing. In reference to your new lever action army doctern do u think a pump action repeating rifle would be better for the officers "subgun" or not? Haveing shot both lever and pump action repeating rifles the pump seams to be faster.

Shane Lyons

I know that commonality was the norm between handgun and carbine. How did these "rifle" rounds differ in ballistics between sidearm and long arm? I believe there were quiet a few callibers that fell into this category. Any further old wear vignettes I would be stoked about

Grant Howard

What was the most popular cartridge firing rifle and handgun of the Old West era? If there were multiple which were they?

London Jolly

I'll repeat last month's question just for visibility, but first: obviously lever guns owned the primary spot, but what were the other options for rifle actions around that time? Perhaps even other action types? My question from last month was you guys opinion on the AN-94, or hyper burst/recoil countering systems in general. Thanks boys!

Daniel R.

Do you guys know if the shooters in the Old West used similar reloading tools or did most (again like today) just buy their ammo at a shop?

Kevin Harris

What round that was available circa 1870 or so do you believe could have been serviceable until spitzer projectiles were widely available around 1910? It always struck me as odd that rounds like 9.5x60r Turkish Mauser didn't have longer service lives, as it wasn't really until spitzer cartridges that some of the smaller diameter black powder cartridges got completely overshadowed in terms of maximum effective range and usability (statistically). Additionally, why do you think bolt action rifles like the Winchester Hotchkiss never seemed to really catch on in the American market? It seemed like such a good idea at the time yet never saw much service with the Army and never seemed to capture the attention of sportsmen and frontiersmen the way that lever action models did. Thanks for all the hard work you guys put in, I tell people at the gun store I work at to check both inRange and Forgotten Weapons out all the time. Love your channel.

MNETHTBRD

Did shotguns have any real practical use it the West before the advent of repeating shotguns in the late 1800's? Besides the ability to spray pellets while moving, like on a stagecoach, I can't think of any other situation where a one or two barreled shotgun would be preferable to a lever gun with 10+ rounds. Thanks for your hard work.

Jevidar Ba'cho

First of all, thanks for putting out great content! Looking forward to more vignettes. My questions are about paired weapons. How common was it to carry a revolver and lever action chambered in the same cartridge? Was there a preferred cartridge for these weapons? When carrying paired weapons which was used more often: rifle or pistol?

Sean

Until the 1890's, with smokeless powder, jacketed bullets, and higher velocities being much more attainable and common than with black powder and lead projectiles, it seems like a time when armor could be relatively easily made and effective, even just some simple rectangular steel chestplate might be better than nothing. What was the state of bullet-resistant gear in the 1800's? Did it even exist, and if so how common was it?

grant mckenna

Hey guys. Are you aware of any ammunition in the Old West that was either modified by the end user for 'personal defense' or marketed by a manufacturer as such? We are talking pistol ammo here, not rifle or shotgun.

Kevin Bohne

What late 19th Century smokeless bolt action rifle would you want to have if you were in an Old West scenario? Is there also a pistol not commonly seen in the Old West that you think would be good to have?

james Kachman

I'm an AR shooter, born and bred, and I want one lever gun to capture the history, the design, the aesthetics, everything around lever gun rifles. What do you recommend?

Anthony Hope

How precise are the tolerances for the cylinder and barrel alignment required to be in a revolver to function safely? Were the original gunsmiths really talented with the tools they had or is it relatively simple to ensure the alignment is right?

Tim

Given the 'What if 1870's Lever Guns" concept. What are your thoughts on the logistical issues. It seems to me that logistics would be the largest hurdle with this concept with tactics and artillery issues coming in close. My longer comments from the initial video: -Logistics is the biggest issue; you've got to able to equip a large enough force to garrison the West. In many cases bodies are more important than weapons when you need to run a fort, provide a security force, and a patrol force. Ammunition supplies for such weapon systems (Not just rifles but artillery and quick fire guns) would be needed in a higher volume. -Tactically, you'd have to adapt the entire modern concept of fire and maneuver without the benefit of machine guns or mortars; which is a modern infantry units most casualty producing weapons. We also have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight in what tactics to use. -Artillery is another issue, more quick firing, lighter guns would be needed; which are not developed really until later.

Cyrus Freeman

Is there any evidence of "dollar eighty" loads actually being used? Seems expensive to me. Also, how did buckhorn sights come to be?

Alaskan Exile

While this isn't necessarily old west related, I do know it was done with lever guns in the late 19th and early 20th century. I've been noticing a recent resurgence in companies offering takedown rifles, specifically for the AR-15, what's your opinion on the concept as a whole and do you think it'll catch on?

George Jefferies

OK, this definitely isn't and Old West question but I've been wanting to ask it for ages. You may want to research it a bit (you don't have to if you just want to give a top-of-the-head answer) so you can answer it in a future Q&A if you like (or not at all if the question bores you) . - - - - - - - - - - - - - In a hypothetical scenario where: * It's the 1890s or early 1900s. * You have the industrial capacity of one of the major industrial great powers to work with (Germany, UK, France or US). * You don't have to respect patents (so you're free to mix and match aspects from various platforms). * You're tasked with designing a full power, bolt action rifle for all the armed forces of that nation. What design do you go with?

David Clegg

Did cardsharps (and similar rogues) actually carry spring loaded pistols in their sleeves etc or is this just Hollywood? If so, were there companies actually making tiny concealable pistols with a mechanism designed to bring them into the hand quickly, or were they one off custom jobs?

Matthew Jackson

Was anybody experimenting with bottle-necked rifle cartridges in the old west? Given the area (large plains) it seems like flatter shooting cartridges would have been a huge help, but the early examples I know of are from Europe...

Sean Cowden

Was there any attempt to make a practical body armor in the Old West? If so, were there any effective options beyond just using a plate of steel?

BillFerShort

Karl and Ian's Excellent Adventure: You've gone back to the old west in your time machine to run two-gun matches. What rule changes would you implement, how would the stages be set up, and what weapons would be the most prevalent. What period weapons would you each use in competition? Any personalities from the time that you would like to invite to the competition? Thanks!

Gregg Harper

I have always been curious about Old West ammunition in particular. I'm sure it's based on year and location, but was it more common to roll your own or buy ammunition when around civilization? Also what was the price relative to today and how was ammunition stored to avoid getting wet or damaged?

James Ludovici

Did Cap and Ball weapons get replaced by cartridge ammunition quickly after the development, or did the logistics of ammunition availability and cost keep the older style weapons in use for longer in the West?

Bruce Schumacher

Guys, what is the status of the long-range shooting series that was started last year? I'm very interested to see it continue.

Sean Smith

They have answered that a couple of times. It is pretty much dead due to Ian not having enough time to invest into the project. I also would have loved to see it continue, but not in the cards it seems.

Sean Smith

I kind of want to buy some replica black powder weapons for various reasons. Where do you get your supplies and since cap and ball isn't a fire arm here in the states, do you order weapons online or by them at a LGS (local gun shop). Lastly, any opinions on using modern smokeless powder, appropriately sized charges, in black powder weapons? Thanks for all the awesome content!

Kyle Allen

Which had a greater effect in shaping the history of the Old West. The Gold/silver rush of the mid 1800s or the establishment of railway systems across the west?

Travis Cole

Would you and Ian ever use some cowboy action handguns in a 2g ACM match? It would be interesting to see how much the reloading speed of different designs came into play.

Martin Eugene Smith

This is going back to your what-if video on the US Army and lever guns in the 1870s. How expensive was brass-cased ammunition back in the 1870s-1890s, and, to the best of your knowledge, how does that translate to modern prices? How expensive was it compared to the more traditional ball, powder and paper?

Kyle Allen

Who, if any, are your favorite "Snake Oil" salesman of the Old West, and what endears you to their story?

Cary Widauf

Karl, was the fight at the OK Corral a good fight between the Earp's/Holiday and the "Cowboys"? I have always thought that Wyatt was a good guy and that the Cowboys were the bad guys. From what I know now is that both were a bit on the good and the bad.

Jack Mahan

When we watch movies, everyone is carrying a Colt SAA. What was the reality? I understand that Colts were more expensive, what other guns were commonly seen?

Casey

Why aren't there many (any?) Magazine feed lever action rifle? Seems like a good way to get around laws or rules that say you can't use semi auto guns (hunting or in general) but still have a good rifle round in it. I've seen some pump action ARs and they seem pretty neat.

Casey

Probably hunting with slugs. That's the only other thing I could think.

Casey

I'm in the same boat. I want a lever gun just for the aesthetic and fun of it. I'd probably just go for a practical round so I could shoot it a lot. I want the newer Henry 22lr with threaded barrel. Most any typical pistol round would be fun. If I did a real lever gat I'd go 45-70

Michael Smith

I'm curious about the holsters used during this period, specifically by non-enlisted officers of the law. I've already looked it up, but the information is confusing and profuse (and mainly comprised of advertisements). Perhaps you two could give it a shot (no pun).

Casey

I know you kind of killed the long range shooting series, but I'm still interested. If you get enough interest do you think it would be viable to do still?

collin simpson

the guns of the old west are iconic but how do you think the doctrine of these guns and their usage would change if they were used in another frontier such as Siberia or South America to name a few. Also what guns from the west would lend themselves better in other climates than they did in the west. Its an odd question but I know you are never one to shy away from that. also I heard that two handed pistol shooting only started around the 1960s with that mind is the hammer slapping on a single action revolver shown in movies accurate to the old west. and any plans for military shotgun mud test?

Lucky508

Do either of you have a favorite old west history book with descriptions of shootouts and battles that you would recommend?

Deviant Ollam

I love that there's an Old West Q&A coming up... but I fear that many of the questions that interest me the most may come across as the most mundane. :-) Much of my curiousity surrounding this period in our history could be described as an interest in "day to day" topics relating to firearms. For example... 1. Ammunition - While ammunition is something of a durable good, and there were some semi-reliable supply channels back then even to places on the frontier or industry/boom towns, just how many manufacturers were supporting this market? Do you know how reliably folk could get ammo and therefore how did this affect how much was purchased and how sparingly it was used? Nowadays, aside from moments of political panic, we can enjoy relative abundance and availability of all calibers of ammo. Folk who wish to train and shoot recreationally can do so. If we were living back in the old west, would ammo be costing a more significant portion of our daily income? Would it be easily available at all times? Just how sparingly would people use it? (Not to mention questions of reliability and so forth which also interest me) 2. Purchase and Trade of Firearms - I am given to understand that laws surrounding the restriction of ownership and purchase of firearms were few and far between back then (although some towns did of course restrict carry, etc) but I'd love to know if there are any examples of outright bans on purchase and at what levels. I sadly expect that most such laws would not be equally-enforced or written in a democratic way. My guess is that some regions would have disallowed purchase by Native Americans, Mexicans, or the Chinese, etc. But I'd love to know of any specific examples of which you are aware. Was "illegal trade" in firearms a big business back then? 3. Reliability - With the metals available at the time for manufacturing, and the harsh enviromental conditions that many guns were subjet to in the field, how reliable and long-lived were most weapons back then? Again, I presume that culturally there was a very strong impetus to know how to clean and oil one's arms in order to keep what was likely a costly investment operational. But were certain guns touted as being especially rugged and risilient... and for what reason? Brass plating? Was there stainless steel then? I believe it didn't exist before the nineteen-teens. 4. Easy Question / Trite Question (maybe) - If you were living back then, and assuming you were a person of means but not someone with an /unlimited/ budget, what firearms would you seek to own and why? (Let's say you came west as a capitalist from a big city and owned no guns at all. You have enough funds to invest in one at first, but additional purchases would come in the next few months as your new ventures in the West started paying off. So you have to carefully plan your purchases one at a time, etc. Bonus Constraint: your life in the West takes you between cities/town as well as the countryside. Maybe you're out there to oversee a new farming or ranching concern.)

Deviant Ollam

wow, looking at the other responses, i love that i'm not the only one asking ammunition questions. =)

Sean

I would think that the velocity limit associated with lead projectiles and black powder would render the number of use cases quite small, and of limited real benefit.

Max Treece-Noran

What, in your opinion, is the most bang for your buck C&R gun? Cheers from a broke college student who loves history and firearms but has no money.

Casey

I can ask this next month since it doesn't fit, but if you have room: I don't have any ranges near me over 10yds. Any longer range is at least an hour+ away and are only "1 shot every 3 seconds" from the bench. No other positions. What are some rifle drills I can practice at the indoor ranges? I do some reloading drills and shoot from low ready drills, but can't think of much else. Maybe transition drills?

Jon B

Hi Guys, My question is in regards to rimfire ammunition. The first successful large calibre repeaters were rimfires, but this seems to have died off after 1873 with the .44-40 and .45 Colt cartridges. Why were rimfires less suitable in large calibre configurations? Is it fair to say that rimfire is really only suitable in small calibre format i.e. .22 LR or .17 etc? Did any makers experiment with powerful rimfire cartridges in the old west? Love the show, keep up the good work!

Jon B

P.S Love the show!

Simon Ferrer

The image of a cowboy or gunfighter with a fancy leather rig for his pistol is iconic and common to virtually every television or movie western ever made. However, I've read that several notable western figures actually used completely different carry methods than what is usually portrayed as normal [Wyatt Earp carrying his pistol in a special felt-lined pocket in his overcoat comes to mind]. Just how common (if at all) were pistol holsters and cartridge lined belts on the frontier?

Simon Ferrer

Jon B, they'll probably address this, but I imagine that rimfire just fell by the wayside as the brass casting techniques to make cartridges improved. The first brass cartridges were really crude by today's standards, often brass wire wrapped around a mandrel, welded together, then pressed to a rim primer. Having the primer in the center of the cartridge base ensures more even, consistent ignition of the powder charge, and as tube magazines gave way to box magazines, semi-rimless and rimless ammunition proved easier to stack and feed. Rimfire stuck around for small calibers like .17 and .22 because the cases are so small that making them in centerfire is a more delicate (and more expensive) process.

bird

I is my understanding that the common consensus among firearms historians is that the final nail in the coffin for the declining Sharps Rifle Company was when Hugo Borchardt assumed management. Why is this, especially seeing as under his management they produced guns like the Sharps-Borchardt which was in some ways ahead of its time and is still considered one of the best single shot rifles of the period?

Brian Hall

Westerns were still the most common shows on TV when I was growing up, so here's a silly question: Hollywood always showed us bandits and renegades with a pair of crossed bandoliers, but they were virtually never seen on the "good guys". How common was the use of the bandolier (mostly singly, I would imagine) by the military in the western US after the civil war? Civilian use?

James Ludovici

DONT USE SMOKELESS IN A BLACK POWDER FIREARM!!! You will lose a hand, or worse. Safety PSA out of the way, I bought my replica Black Powder revolver locally, at a BIG sporting goods store. They also sold black powder substitute, caps and balls. My local gunshop has black powder supplies, but not pistol powder or .44 balls, but i'm sure they could get them if I asked.

Armstrong-Arms

I constantly hear from my customers that some gun they own, invariably some repro 1870's or later lever or wheel gun, was the "gun that won the west". My questions are thus: 1. Wasn't what really "won" the west was the inexorable tide of people, technology, and culture streaming past the Mississippi moreso than any singular firearm? 2. If it was a gun, then would it not be the smoothbore muzzleloaders that armed early Antebellum settlers decades before repeating firearms became common and affordable? 3. Are there any period documents referring to this appellation? Or is it more recent cultural invention from folks who grew up watching too many cowboy movies or the makers of repro arms?

Mike Bregman

In your opinion, what time frame does the "Old West" really cover? And in that time frame, what would you say was the most innovative or influential weapons development that was not a revolver or lever action rifle or a self contained cartridge?

Maxim

How did people on the frontier keep their guns from wasting away? Black powder is corrosive. Obviously care had to be taken to prevent a firearm from becoming a rusted mess from a single firing. I have a terrible time keeping the beater Mosin-Nagant I own from rusting from the corrosive ammo in that with the benefit of modern solvents, modern cleaning tools, and a relatively climate controlled place to store the thing (not that I'm particularly worried about a $100 rifle of dubious effectiveness and cool factor). I cant imagine trying to keep a Henry Rifle for instance from rusting out on the frontier. What I'm wondering about is what tools, chemicals, techniques, etc were employed to actually clean and maintain the firearms of the day, particularly when on the trail or far afield of resupply and a roof over one's head.

Alexander Clawson

I've seen several memes about yourselves on various social medias. What is your favorite about yourself, and gun-jesus.

DerpLord90

Going back through history, have there ever been any pump action rifles that have made any sort of commercial or military impact historically? In the US, why did the lever gun come to dominate rifles for as long as it did and why were lever-action shotguns replaced with pump actions?

Adam Cicigoi

What do you think of 6.5 Grendel for Military applications? Is it a viable replacement for the roles of 556 and 308?

Brandon

Noooo I totally misread the original email, sigh. So guessing it's way too late now, but just in case you guy's haven't already finished filming (or perhaps for the next time): Why didn't revolver-rifles take off once double-action revolvers became the hot new thing?

Ethan Marsden

What was the most advanced rifle or pistol during the out west?

Brandon Fleming

We always see the focus on the Old West pistols and rifles, but what else would an Old Westerner realistically carry on them in the 1880s? Provisions, knife, bedroll, water? What about supplies for reloading in the field? How similar of a kit would it be to a modern backpacker?

Ian Johnson

Just heard about a polymer UPPER receiver by Kaiser US, your thoughts?

Dan Jones

Hi guys. For the old west q and a:

Dan Jones

lets try try this again: hi guys! For the old west q and a, a few disjointed questions. How common was reloading on the frontier? Do you think reloading components were any more available than manufactured ammunition (given the transition from cap and ball to metallic, I would guess folks had at least powder on hand). Also, concerning the popularity of lever action rifles and pump shotguns, why do you suppose there were so few pump rifles and lever shotguns? Finally, inrad once of a "backroom deal" between colt and Winchester, whereby colt agreed to stay out of the rifle business and Winchester out of the pistol business. Is there any truth to that? Keep up the good work, dan.

James Mitts

I would like a run down of the cartridges used in lever action rifles. I remember you went into it a bit in the post on lever action rifles being the old west version of the assault rifle but would like something more in depth.

Tyler H.

Hey guys, I've always been enamored with open top and top break/hinge frame revolvers, but they are inherently weak designs structurally. Is there any way that modern materials can or have made these designs viable with full pressure smokeless loads?

Michael Pronchick

Any use cases of a ballistic vest in the old west? Also, if you have time, did they do anything special to store ammunition? Just a try corner or did they keep it in rice or something crazy like that.

CK Clark

Edit: never mind this is off topic, too long, and can wait till next month. I am currently saving for my first firearm. I’m interested primarily in learning precision shooting skills and I’d like to hear your recommendations for building a training plan to quickly build from a negligible amount of experience to a high level of proficiency. Is it worth starting with rimfire for the sake of cost saving or should I begin with the centerfire rifle I plan on using anyway. To broaden the question: if I have specific goals in mind (intermediate to long range shooting primarily not with semi auto rifles) is it a better idea to start with whatever’s most affordable with the intention of selling that equipment when I’ve gotten basic skills and “earned” superior performing equipment or specialized gear, or wait until I have a larger budget and buy a rifle I intend on using indefinitely? You've mentioned before that plinking cans in the desert doesn't help with realistic skills.

David Siemens

Will you do a vignette on the battle of Serenity Valley?

Michael Wilkinson

Do you know of any instances of gatling guns being used in the old west i.e. the apache wars and the like? If so, in what way were they used? Did they make a substantial difference?

Charles Adams

Re your idea of the lever action as a military rifle, and your recognition if a more long range rifle as a "DMR" rifle - I'seen some lever action rifles from the 1880's set up as long range shooters, certainly not to schutzen standards, but the rifles were configured with tangent sites. Seeing what I've read of the limitations of the 19th century optics, it seems as if DMR rifles would be equipped with tangent sites. I've seen some incredible shooting by single shot rifles with tangent sights, btw. Also, staying in the whole alternative history concept, with something like the Win 66 as the "door kicker" rifle in 44-40 or 45 LC, which rifle would you select as the DMR? I assume it would be in 45-70 (if nothing else for limitations of the supply train)? Really enjoy what you are doing, from WWSD, to the whole lever gun alternative history, to internet security. Oh yeah, just an observation, whether it's WWSD to the Lever gun project, consider a common thread - the intransigence, outright stupidity even some corruption/sabotage with the US Army's procurement systems in perhaps not giving what soldiers in the field needed, but what some small group of officer's in procurement desired.

Charles Adams

Re your video about Ammunition Resupply and the Scofield Revolver, why do you think that the US Army didn't simply require S&W to provide the revolvers chambered in 45 LC? For your Levergun project, it would tie-in, as even today, the 45 Auto is not quite an "assault rifle" cartridge, but as far as I remember, neither is the 44-40.

Charles Adams

From what I've read of period documents, there were far more people with shotguns than repeating rifles. Shotguns were developed for hunting, which was a regular activity amongst the people in the west. Also, the West was also far safer then the cities of the same period. Movies in the 20th century and even the lurid magazines of the day tended to sensationalize the violence of the "Wild West" Seems to me that if I remember correctly, slugs were a fairly modern invention, if there was a single projectile shot from a shotgun, it was termed a "Pumpkin Ball" as was loaded by Winchester as late as the 1970's. During college in the 70's I remember selling some new ammunition to older people using their shotguns, who claimed that they had been using the Pumpkin Balls for years, but didn't/hadn't ever used slugs. Deer hunting with a shotgun was most often done with buckshot (as was home defense) out to ranges of 40-50 yards.

Michael Wilkinson

What year would you say the " wild west" as it is called, was tamed? What events or conflicts directly led into this?

Ezra

Inspired by your Ammo Supply/Schofield video: how did civilians go about securing their ammunition and how much did it cost them compared to now?

Truls Jacobsen

Did the american Wild west include any European guns? Mausers 71 perhaps? Any European gun in common use?