FROM THE VAULT: An Interview With Frank Oz (Patreon)

I first met Frank Oz on the set of Muppets From Space, in January of 1999. We got on quite well, and made plans to do an in-depth interview sometime in the near future.

Towards the end of the year, our schedules finally met in the middle, and we had quite a long conversation, marked by Oz’s complete candor about his time with the Muppets, his move into directing, and much more. I also learned that Frank Oz swore.

Like a sailor.

It was an endearing verbal affectation that sticks out in my memory to this day. Here was an iconic performer who brought to life a fair chunk of my childhood – Miss Piggy, Fozzie Bear, Cookie Monster, Animal, Grover – and he cussed. A lot.

From the vaults, I present to you my chat with Frank Oz…

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KEN PLUME: You were born in England. When did your parents move to the States? Why did they?

FRANK OZ: I was born in Hereford, England in 1944. We moved when they had an opportunity to get a visa, about 1950. My Dad always thought Europe was a bit too small for him. He wanted to see the United States…

The typical immigrant story. He wanted a better life for his children, too. He always tried to get the visa and it didn’t come up. Even before the war he wanted to come to the United States.

At that time you had to have six months residence supported by a sponsor in the United States. He finally found a sponsor in Montana, bizarrely enough, so in 1951 he took my brother and I and my mom, who I think was pregnant with my sister, from Belgium to Montana.

PLUME: What was your father’s profession?

OZ: He was a window trimmer, like for Ladies’ apparel stores.

PLUME: Your parents were both puppeteers, weren’t they?

OZ: Right.

PLUME: What was his profession in the States?

OZ: He stayed a window trimmer. He was a freelance window trimmer.

PLUME: So the puppeteering was a hobby…

OZ: It became a hobby, right.

PLUME: Did your parents foster puppeteering within the family?

OZ: No. My brother had no interest in it whatsoever and my sister didn’t have interest in it till later years. My brother was into cars. It was something that I latched on to because it was a way to please them and it was a means of expression for a shy, self-effacing boy.

PLUME: Did it come naturally to you?

OZ: I have no idea. In the beginning I imagine you’re a kid, you don’t know what the hell you’re doing. It took awhile. At that time, it was only marionettes, not hand puppets.

PLUME: Where were your interests growing up?

OZ: The usual things: girls and sports. That was the interest, mainly. I never wanted to be a puppeteer. I stopped puppeteering when I was about 18. I puppeteered when I was eleven years old to 18 to make extra money to go to Europe, which I made half of and my parents gave me half.I bought a tape recorder and some stuff and went to Europe for three months when I was 18. The puppeteering was only there as a hobby. I wanted to be a journalist. When I was 19 and after I had spent about a year in college, Jim Henson asked me to come out and try puppeteering for awhile.

PLUME: Where did you first meet Jim (Henson)?

OZ: They have these puppeteers conferences, which I never used to go to… ever…except for this one I went to when I was 17 years old and Jim happened to be there.

PLUME: Jim Henson wanted to hire you right out of high school, right?

OZ: He saw what I did there, and I was working with an old friend of mine named Jerry Juhl, so he hired Jerry, who went on to be the writer for the Muppets. Two years later when I finished high school and was in college, he asked me to come out to work part-time with him. I tried to continue my studies at CCNY in New York, but that lasted only about a semester or two. I continued on with the Muppets. What was going on was too exciting.

PLUME: What were your first impressions of Jim during that first meeting?

OZ: He didn’t have a beard. At that time I was 17, so he must have been about 23. He was this very quiet, shy guy who did these absolutely f***ing amazing puppets that were totally brand new and fresh, that had never been done before.

PLUME: Do you regret giving up journalism to pursue puppeteering?

OZ: Nah, I think the fourth estate is quite happy without me. Actually, I’m ashamed of what the fourth estate is doing these days. Nevertheless, I think they’re doing fine without me.

PLUME: Give me an overview of what working with the Muppets was like in the 60’s. It was just you, Jim, Jane Henson, Jerry Juhl, Don Sahlin, and Jerry Nelson, right?

OZ: Well, it was not quite that yet. I came onboard because Jane (Henson’s wife) was pregnant with Brian and she could no longer work. At that time, they had just moved from Washington, D.C. to New York, in 1963. Jane was no longer really working with the Muppets, because she already had two kids and was expecting a third. So when she had the third, she was definitely not working with the Muppets, although she helped me learn lip-sync in the studio with Jim. Other than that, she really wasn’t performing. I came in in 1963 to a real bare flat with two rooms on East 53rd Street, where Don Sahlin (Muppet designer) had his workshop in the front.

Don Sahlin did the hand puppets, and Jerry Juhl had a little desk there in the next room along with Jim’s desk. Jerry Juhl wrote for the Muppets, and I joined as a performer who really didn’t know how to perform the Muppets. I took a long time to learn… Many years.

So there was Jim, who was the head of it all and did everything, Don Sahlin, who built the puppets, Jerry Juhl, who wrote, and I performed. We all overlapped a great deal. And we had a secretary. And that’s how it was in the beginning. Then after awhile, Jerry Nelson came in.

PLUME: Jerry Nelson came in during your “military scare,” right?

OZ: Yeah. Jerry actually came in before that, when I going to go into the military, but I got a 4-F because of my heart. He was taking over the job, but then I came back.

PLUME: I can only imagine the look on his face when you came back in…

OZ: I had given up my apartment, I had given up my job to Jerry because Jim needed somebody to perform and Jerry was excellent. I had my going away party… I was supposed to be going away for two years. I went down to Whitehall Street and they rejected me, which I’m thrilled about. So I went back, and the only person in the office was Jerry. I opened the door, and he was on the telephone.Now this is Jerry, who finally got a steady job, and now here I am, back. He thinks he doesn’t have a steady job anymore. So I open the office door and there he is on the phone, and I’ll never forget this, he looks up at me – continues talking – hangs up the phone, walks around the desk, sits down on the couch, and says, “Shit.”

So, I went off to Europe for a couple of months and bummed around, then I came back and got an apartment. I had no money whatsoever, and I got a job selling rug shampoo on 14th Street for about a day, then eventually Jim needed both of us.

PLUME: Now during this time, the primary focus of the company was on The Jimmy Dean Show…

OZ: I came in to do The Jimmy Dean Show mainly, yeah.

PLUME: …And the commercial work, which was throughout the 60’s…

OZ: That was throughout. We stopped commercials when Sesame Street came up and we didn’t need the money. Until then, the commercials were always the bread and butter. We’d take turns driving to Washington. When we’d get there, we’d flip a coin to see who was going to stay in whose room at the Marriott. Two rooms and the four of us would split up to save money. We went to Washington, D.C. because Jim came from there and he had a good deal with the studio there. A very tiny studio named Rodel. We did hundreds of commercials in that time period before Sesame Street.

PLUME: How true is the apocryphal story that being within the La Choy Dragon suit for the La Choy commercial forever turned you off to doing suit puppetry?

OZ: I hated it. I hated doing it totally. Jim knew I hated it. I think he relished it. The La Choy dragon was a bitch. I was totally blind in there. I always hated being inside characters, but I was the main performer and that was my job.

PLUME: You also had special effects to deal with….

OZ: It wasn’t that much of a special effect. It was a flame-thrower that Don Sahlin had a bottle of something attached to and squirted it and I had to be in the right position at the right time. The La Choy dragon was a bitch.

I had to do a couple of others because, again, I was the main performer, but Jim knew that it was going to be short lived after awhile because I just hated doing those things… Loathed it. I’d done enough of it.

PLUME: What was the segue like going into Sesame Street in ’69?

OZ: Because I was the main performer of the group, I really went from job to job, and all I remember was that there was a job to do. With Sesame Street, there was a little pilot that we had to do for Sesame Street before we came on to play around and talk. I don’t know who we did it for, maybe the backers or the government, I don’t know. I remember doing that, and then we had Sesame Street and I was just doing Sesame Street every day completely, and some days until 2:00 in the morning.

To me, I was a worker. I was a drone. I kind of went where the job was, so it didn’t mean a lot to me as far as it being a special program. What it meant was that I could actually work out characters, because for years prior to that I was frightened to death to do my own characters – to do my own voices. I didn’t do voices, as a matter of fact. Jim did the voices and I just did performing. So it was a blessing, almost like vaudeville, to do X number of shows a week and grow your characters and grow your craft. For me, that’s what it meant. The idea of Sesame Street being an institution, that never crossed my mind. It was another job.

PLUME: So living in it, you didn’t realize how momentous it really was?

OZ: No. All we were doing was going day by day. I was anyway.

Jim may have had grander schemes and grander visions… Which he did, because he was a visionary. Me, I was a drone who was excited to be working and learning my craft, although I got more and more frustrated only doing puppets because I really wanted to direct. Nevertheless, I was having a great time. I loved Jim, I loved Jerry Juhl and Don and Jerry Nelson.

I never really took my head out of the hole in the ground while I was working until many, many years later that I realized that gee, that was significant. But it wasn’t until many, many years later.

PLUME: What was your participation in Jim’s short film, Timepiece?

OZ: Well, it was Jim’s movie. He and Jerry Juhl and Don Sahlin and Jerry Nelson and I and others helped out. We were really helping Jim make his little bizarre movie where we didn’t know what the f*** it was. We just trusted and loved Jim. It was 10 minutes and like 168 scenes or something. It was very groundbreaking with the fast-cutting. Jim was a visionary, and he used that vision during that movie in particular to new ends.

It was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Short Film. It was quite wonderful, but while we were doing it, we didn’t know what the hell it was. Jim would scrape enough money up through commercials and we would go out shooting on weekends with Ted Nemeth, who had an old 35mm rackover camera. We’d rent costumes and hire friends and for a year we were doing that every other weekend or when Jim had the money.

PLUME: So, in every sense, it was an independent film…

OZ: Oh, f***in’-a. Totally.

PLUME: I didn’t know this, but I was told recently that your first directing jobs were some of the short filmed segments on “Sesame Street”.

OZ: Well, I don’t think that you could call that directing. In fact, the only one I ever did myself was a bizarre thing with this ball for the number 3 where I built an entire, kind of bizarre wire sculpture and shot it over many months. Looking back on it, I’m thinking “My God, why the f*** was I doing all of that work?”

But it was fun to do. I wouldn’t call that directing. I was in a gallery doing wire sculpture and one of my pieces sold, so that’s where that came from. It was something where I could control my own little world, but it wasn’t directing. It was creating and then just kind of calling the shots.

PLUME: How would you describe the creative atmosphere of the Henson company in the 60’s, and Sesame in the early years?

OZ: Play through guidance. Jim would never teach, he would always just gently guide while we were playing. It was playing around and having a great deal of fun while working extraordinarily hard. It’s the hardest work I’ve ever done.

PLUME: Leavened by the sense of play?

OZ: The work was play. That’s what we learned from Jim. No matter what Jim did… If it was a Cloverland Cow commercial, which we knew we were not very excited about and he knew it wasn’t an exciting thing to do, he would make it exciting. He would make whatever work there was exciting and fun. He just would. So it wasn’t leavened by fun, it was fun.

We would put our energies into work, no matter what it was, it was fun. And it was tough. Very tough.

PLUME: Around this time in the early 70’s is when Jim began pitching the concept of a Muppet show. What was that like?

OZ: It was more than pitching. We went around from ad agency to ad agency, network to network, auditioning in front of people who would always say, “Aww gee, Harry’s got to see this” and then we’d come back for Harry.

We would take these black boxes all around New York. Me and Jerry Juhl and Don Sahlin and Jim lugging those damn black boxes all around New York, and nobody wanted the show. They would also come to the studio and look at the show, but they would always say, “Bill should see this,” because they obviously didn’t have the authority to say yes.

PLUME: So basically they got a free lunch show with no intention of greenlighting it?

OZ: No, I suppose they had interest in it, but it was pretty f***ing bizarre. It was a bizarre thing with these bizarre puppets that were not for children. They just didn’t get it. We were doing all of these appearances on The Tonight Show and with Julie Andrews and Bob Hope, and Perry Como. I believe they saw that we had entertainment value as an act, but as a show? Who knew?

PLUME: Many accounts describe Jim as feeling pigeonholed as a children’s act by Sesame Street…

OZ: Yeah. Jim always flowed with the river. He never fought very hard against it. So when Sesame Street came, it was not what he wanted to do, but he realized that there was great value in it as a means of expression and certainly an opportunity to be more financially secure so he could do some of the things that were more artistic and experiment a little bit: like The Dark Crystal and even some of the fairy tales we did like Muppet Musicians of Bremen, where he experimented with new types of puppets – half mask/half puppet. He was always experimenting.

His background was more avant-garde. His background was production design. When he got famous for Sesame Street, it was wonderful, it was great, he loved it and he thought there was real value there, but he didn’t want to just be pigeonholed, he wanted to go back and be the film director that he wanted to be.

He was very into R&D. Whenever he got money for anything, he would always put part of it back into R&D. Always research and development. Always. Other people, ideas for shows, ideas for techniques, ideas for puppets, ideas for special effects – he would always do R&D.

Like anything, you get successful in anything then the audience only wants that one thing. I remember doing Rowlf the Dog on Sesame Street for about a season-and-a-half, and Jim was trying to get other puppets on the show, other Muppets. I remember him bringing Kermit, who was totally unknown at that time. Rowlf the Dog was the big star across the country with The Jimmy Dean Show. So he brought Kermit in to the rehearsals, and they all looked at him and went, “I don’t think so.” They just didn’t take him.

But when you get successful, whether it’s Rowlf the Dog or Gilda Radner, who I talked to about this, doing Emily Littella – they pigeonhole you as that one thing and they don’t let you go off and do other things. It doesn’t mean you have to stay in one place. He did get a little pigeonholed, but that didn’t stop him. He always went further.

PLUME: What was working on Saturday Night Live like?

OZ: I don’t remember much because, again, I was a drone. A performer.

I remember meeting with Lorne Michaels, Jim and I. Lorne was talking about how we would work on the show. He said he had this girl from Canada, which happened to be Gilda, and we didn’t know who that was. He thought we might work well with her, but Jim had a different idea. Jim didn’t know Gilda, and Jim had ideas to push the boundaries, not do the funny little Muppets, but to do bizarre creatures. He always wanted to push the boundaries, so this was an opportunity to have new, bizarre characters…a different world.

So he took it for that, in part to push those boundaries and express himself, and as a gig too. I just remember the process, working with their writers like Chevy (Chase), and Tom (Davis) and Al (Franken), and a lot of other guys. It was a difficult process. It was a frustrating process for everybody involved, because we came on the show and, bizarrely enough it’s hard to see that now, but during the first year, the Muppets were the most well known people on the show. Nobody else knew Danny (Aykroyd) or Chevy (Chase) or John (Belushi).

Then, of course, everybody realized that the other guys were getting more popular and the Muppets, as popular as they are, just didn’t fit into that kind of show. The humor is totally different. We were a more punchy, cartoony kind of thing and they were not. Fortunately at the end of that first year, we got The Muppet Show and we parted very friendly, but it was a frustrating year for everybody.

PLUME: I know it has been described as very uncomfortable for the SNL writers to write for the Muppets…

OZ: It was.

PLUME: How palpable was that to you? Belushi described them as the “Mucking Fuppets”…

OZ: Yeah. John was very friendly and we were very friendly with John and Chevy and Danny, actually, personally, I was very friendly with John.

But our personal friendship had nothing to do with how they felt about the Muppets. I don’t think it was really about the Muppets, I just think it was taking time away from their opportunities. Also, we were trying to squeeze the original idea of the Muppets onto a show which now had gained a different identity, and our identity didn’t mesh with their identity. That’s all it was.

There was no personal animosity, we were all friends and enjoyed each other, but we were from different worlds. The writing meetings were very tense – very tense – and rightfully show, because they were trying to write in a way that they’d never written before, and we were trying to get on a show that was wrong comedically for us.

PLUME: So basically it was just a stylistic clash?

OZ: I think that’s all it was. That’s really all it was. They didn’t know how to do it. They didn’t understand the Muppets. People think it’s very easy to write for the Muppets, but it’s very difficult.

They were very sardonic and sarcastic and brilliant, I loved ’em, I loved being on the show. It was wonderful to be on the show the first year, but with the Muppets, there’s not mean-spiritedness. They were sometimes mean-spirited taking a chance, which I love, but with us, our characters were more affectionate. Bizarre, but still warm. It just didn’t mesh. Eventually it was obvious that the styles didn’t mesh. I really believe that was totally it, because we were on a very friendly basis with them personally, but it just f***ing didn’t work.

PLUME: How would you sum up your years working on The Muppet Show?

OZ: Sum it up? Hmmm…

PLUME: Would you still consider yourself a journeyman performer? You assumed a lot of off camera duties during that time…

OZ: I still consider myself a journeyman performer. I was a workhorse. I felt it was an absolutely fabulous opportunity for me to learn. Jim allowed me to be part of that. I knew that I wanted to direct, and there were movies coming up and Jim and I knew that, so I said, “Y’know, I’d like to have a title, Creative Consultant, so I can stick my head into meetings and learn and people won’t ask ?What the f*** is this performer doing here?'”

So I asked for Creative Consultant, a half-assed title, which meant that I could go learn post-production, and go to writing meetings. I’m not sure how happy they were about that – but I was happy to learn. But my main job was still the workhorse, the performer.

PLUME: And Jim always facilitated those opportunities?

OZ: Always. He always supported and always gave me opportunities. That’s why I’m here now, because of those opportunities and the support Jim gave me.

PLUME: It was also during that time that Ms. Piggy attained a widespread cult status. Actually beyond a cult status…

OZ: It was beyond that – it was so massive. It was massive because it came during the time of women’s lib. I mean, we were on the cover of LIFE and all these magazines, and endless interviews.

Also remember, The Muppet Show was the most watched show in the world at that time – they said over and over, in 104 countries. It was massive. It was huge. I think it had a lot to do with the times in which we did the show. The timing was really right.

PLUME: How did you feel about a character of yours eclipsing the rest of the Muppets?

OZ: You know, I know it sounds odd, but we were so much of a group…I mean, I knew that I was a star performer – with all the articles written about Piggy there was no way I couldn’t see that. However, I was still doing all these other characters…and small stuff too…and I was still a workhorse on the show.

And we were a group. It was always for the work, not for fame. Jim was still the head of it, still the guiding light, the visionary, and he was the one who created the fun and created the extraordinary amount of work, so I didn’t think much about it – except that I was exhausted a lot.

It was a grind. It was both an opportunity and an exhausting playland, because we loved it also. You know, the fact that I was a star performer, and still am, one has to realize that you don’t do that in a vacuum. In order to be a star performer you have to have someone to play against, and there are brilliant performers that I play against.

PLUME: The Muppet organization always struck me as a very tightknit group.

OZ: We are.

PLUME: Do you think it’s just the nature of the work – or the people?

OZ: I think it’s the people involved. I don’t think it’s the nature. It’s the kind of people that Jim found.

Most of the key people (and creative people) here are still from Jim’s choices – Jim chose these people. I think the kind of people he chose… the people that we are…are people (who are innocent at heart and are also professional and loyal. Good people who are very talented and brilliant at what they do. I think it’s the people that Jim chose and not the nature of the work which makes us tightknit. It all stems from Jim. It all comes from that spirit.

PLUME: And the industry, overall, isn’t known for many of those factors…

OZ: Nope.

No, Jim was an exceptional human being. He was much more noble. There was a nobility about him because, although it was always about the work, it wasn’t always about the money.

For example, there was a prop man on the set who had to do a special effect for the Muppets for a particular character, and he would always screw up. Another director would say, “Okay, get another guy,” but Jim knew there was something larger. That’s a humane equation here, too – that the man would feel bad if he was let go and we got another prop guy. So Jim stayed with this prop guy.

I remember being on the set for take after take after take until he could get it right. Jim “got” two things, he not only got the performance right, but he also supported a human being. That’s very rare. That is the one thing… I don’t know if anybody else has that nobility. That generousness of spirit. He was always for not just what was at hand, but for the larger picture.

PLUME: It’s very rare to find a person who is universally described that way.

OZ: It is.

What I don’t like is describing Jim as that he was this wonderful, warm, sweet man because, yes he was a wonderful, warm, sweet man – but he was also the strongest man I ever met in character. He was very tough. He worked like a sonofabitch. He could get cranky and he got snarky at times. He would rarely get angry. I’ve seen him angry only about three times in my life.

He was a very complex guy, but he was that noble spirit.

PLUME: Was the decision for you to co-direct Dark Crystal made early on?

OZ: No – I remember it very clearly.

Jim didn’t have a script – he didn’t work that normal way. He wanted to have a laboratory of textures and designs and ideas and rehearsals. He had a story – but he wanted the script to work in conjunction with the laboratory of creating the characters.

So I was privy to that. I was there to help out. My job basically was to help Jim and to help the company. It was not my thing, but I wanted to help as much as I could. He did that for about a year or two, and then I think we went over to England once on an airplane a couple years before we started shooting, and that’s when he asked me would I like to direct – and I’ll never forget this…

This is Jim – he said, “Would you direct Dark Crystal with me?” and I said, “Why? I don’t know how to direct. You could do it yourself. Why would you want me to direct with you?”

He said, “Because it would be better.” And that’s all that mattered. He didn’t care about the credit. He knew that he had some weaknesses and he felt that I had some strengths, and so we worked together that way.

We were Yin and Yang to a degree, and so I could shore up some of those weaknesses and…at the same time…I can learn from him. I’m sure that was part of it, too. He was always about making something better. It was always about the quality of the piece and not anything else. That’s all he cared about.

And the truth is, I didn’t direct with him. He directed. I helped him direct his movie. He was generous giving the title, but really it was his movie, his vision, and I shored up the areas where he had some weaknesses, but it was not my movie, it was his movie.

PLUME: Very rarely does one hear of a co-directorship running smoothly. What was that process like?

OZ: It was not smooth at all, and it was because of me, not because of Jim. Jim should have f***in’ fired me several times. Jim was extraordinarily patient. I was a young guy who wanted to make his mark in the world, and if I was the co-director, by God why wasn’t I attending more meetings and why didn’t I get more say in things? I had a problem of self-esteem and it came through that way. It was difficult for Jim, not for me. It was frustrating for me, but that was an unhealthy frustration. It worked because Jim was patient. That’s why it worked.

PLUME: So it was a mentoring situation…

OZ: Absolutely. A mentoring situation except in certain areas I was able to shore up those things that the mentor was not sure in.

PLUME: And as you described, that was one of Jim’s gifts to allow that kind of creative input…

OZ: Always, always. He was nurturing, always.

PLUME: It was also around this time that you were approached to perform another character that has attainted a cult status, Yoda. How did that come about?

OZ: All I remember was that I was shooting The Muppet Movie in Los Angeles, and Jim came to me and said Gary Kurtz, who was co-producer of The Empire Strikes Back, had a character and I think they asked Jim first – but with running a company and everything he couldn’t do it, so he recommended me.

So all I remember was that he said, “Come over here, I want you to meet this guy and look at this character.” So I went in my trailer on the set, and Gary talked about it a little and showed me this character, and sometimes you “get” a character immediately and sometimes, like Bert or Grover, it takes years. So he opened up this book and I saw this drawing, and for some reason, I immediately knew what this guy was. I can’t tell you why. I just knew it.

From then on, I was the one who kind of put all the elements of Yoda together, and although Jim didn’t make Yoda, George and he had an understanding that they would exchange technology information. George would give to Jim and Jim would give some of his people to George to help. Wendy Froud helped out a little bit with the character and two other people from Jim’s company worked the cables for me.

It was not Jim who made the puppet, he just consulted on it, then I continued on after that.

PLUME: Your next directing gig after Dark Crystal was Muppets Take Manhattan.

OZ: Right. That’s again where Jim’s support and the opportunities he gave me comes out.

There was a script written by two other writers, and I said to Jim that I felt it wasn’t in the right direction. I may have been wrong about it, but the point is that he allowed me to rewrite it, and so I rewrote the script. The he asked me to direct it. I was very grateful, and that was the first directing job I’d done really on my own.

PLUME: Was it an odd feeling to be directing your mentor?

OZ: That situation with the Muppets is so different. It’s guided play. When Jim and I had worked in the past, I’ll mention some ideas to him… I’d say “Why don’t you try it over here,” and he’d say to me “Why don’t we try it over here,” so we both kind of did that to each other anyway. Also not only us, but Dave Goelz, or Jerry Nelson, or Richard Hunt, or Steve Whitmire or anybody else would say, “Hey could we try this over here? This might be good.”

In a way, it’s more of a shared sense of creativity with each person guiding, it just happened to be that I was the one guiding it, but still there was a shared sense of creativity. The actual spirit of it wasn’t that much different. I think the puppeteers hated me because I was pushing them so hard. I was a bit too controlling on that film. I don’t think I was the best director for Jim or the other people on the first film I did.

PLUME: Was it just a matter of nervousness?

OZ: Inexperience. I think the more inexperienced you are, the more in control you think you have to be. The more experience you have, you realize you don’t have to be in control.

PLUME: How did you get Little Shop Of Horrors?

OZ: It’s very interesting. After Muppets Take Manhattan, I acquired two agents from CAA, Mike Marcus and Fred Spector. David Geffen had seen Muppets Take Manhattan, and he was interested in me directing Little Shop.

They sent the script to me and I met with Fred Spector and I said no. There was much too much…it was too big. I didn’t understand it. It had fourteen songs – as many as My Fair Lady – and it had guest stars, huge sets, and major special effects which were not done digitally, because that’s the way it was 15 years ago. So I said no. It had these three girls running around and I didn’t get it.

After about two weeks, I was in Canada doing a job – and I had an idea about how to approach the girls. It was the key that opened up the movie to me. I called David Geffen through my agents and asked if he was still interested. He said, “Yeah” and I came in and told him my ideas. He liked it, and then he asked if I wanted to rewrite it, and I said, “I’ll try.” I asked Howard Ashman if he wanted to be part of it and he said no, because I think he thought, “What the hell do I need to work with an inexperienced director for? He’ll screw up my script.”

So I spent about a month, month-and-a-half doing a rewrite on Little Shop, which really used some new material, but mostly restructured a lot of the old material. Both Howard and David liked it, and then we went on – it was a go.

PLUME: What was the hardest thing to tackle on Little Shop?

OZ: Oh, that f***ing plant. Also, people hadn’t done a musical before, and also 007…that huge stage…in the dead of winter…without heat. It was a massive project, but I think that plant was the thing that really… I mean, it took us about 8 weeks to shoot the song number with the plant.

PLUME: Does it surprise you how well the picture has held up?

OZ: I’m surprised, pleasantly so, that’s become a cult picture for people. I look at it and, like all my work – well, not all my work – but I see all the things I wish I’d done differently and better. In general, I think that’s one of the pictures I’m most proud of.

PLUME: What happened with the Little Shop of Horrors DVD fiasco?

OZ: Well, the fiasco is my f***in’ fault.

What happened was that when I did the DVD, they asked me did I have any footage, and I said, “Well, I have the ending,” which is some of the most brilliant model work done at that time. We had to shelve it, and I was very sad for the man who worked six months on this thing and spent so much money – it was great work. I said I had that original ending and they said, “Great!” so I said, “Yeah, you can use it.”

And then he used it, and I got a call from David Geffen a month later after the disc was out, and he says, “What happened? Why did you give them that footage?” I said, “I thought it would be okay. I thought it was cleared through you.” He said, “But it was black and white…” I said, “Well that’s all I had.” He said, “I have color, if you’re going to put it out. Let’s make it good. Let’s make it color.” I said, “David, I’m sorry. It’s my fault. I didn’t realize you had a color image of it.”

So he pulled all the DVDs. I don’t know at some point if he’ll put the color version out or not.

PLUME: That was your first real project outside the Henson fold…

OZ: Right, that was.

PLUME: What were your feelings about “leaving the nest?”

OZ: That’s the great thing about Jim. He gave me his blessings and said, “Of course… You have to grow.” That’s where the nobility came in.

PLUME: I’m now going to name off your pictures, and I’d like if you could give me whatever reflections come to mind: Dirty Rotten Scoundrels…

OZ: A lot of fun watching nude women on the beach and eating good food and working with Steve (Martin) and Michael (Caine).

PLUME: And you had worked with Steve Martin before…

OZ: I knew him socially before, but as a director it was the second time. I was working with him as a performer on The Muppet Show and also on The Muppet Movie. So I knew him before, but it was less than the relationship between a director and an actor, because the relationship grows. And then there was Michael Caine and Glenne Headly. It was just so much fun, even though any movie is hard work, that particular hard work was really a lot of fun.

PLUME: What About Bob?…

OZ: A tough, tough movie to shoot. The memories of that are that there was a lot of tension on the set, because everybody had their own viewpoint on how to make the movie better. My viewpoint on that is relief that it turned out so well and was liked so much, because there was a lot of tension.

PLUME: Did that tension affect your control on the set?

OZ: I don’t control the set… I kind of hope that, like Jim taught me, I guide. Sometimes you had to get a little hard, but it was a tense time because Bill (Murray)…and the writer and the producer…and Richard Dreyfuss…and me…and Disney ( although less so Disney, I must say they were more supportive)…all had our view on how to make the script better.

It wasn’t out of mean-spiritedness, it was just that everybody felt strongly about how to make the movie better. That caused friction and a lot of tension, and that’s what I remember, but it also caused the movie to be better. It turned out okay, I think.

PLUME: Housesitter…

OZ: Housesitter was a delight. Again, good memories of Goldie (Hawn) and Steve (Martin) and Julie Harris. I remember the people. It was a delight. It was just fun. Any movie was hard work, but again, this hard work was fun.

PLUME: Indian in the Cupboard…

OZ: The toughest movie brainwise that I’ve ever done. It was physically tough to do Little Shop of Horrors, but mentally tough to do Indian in the Cupboard. We had five months of first unit shooting, and then we had the second unit bluescreen for six months at the same time, and I’d go from set to set – in conjunction with my crew.

Again, you can never do things alone – and try to keep all these special effects and eye lines and everything in balance… that was tough. But I remember the people like Hal (Scardino) and my crew. I remember in general that it was a very intimate picture, which is what I wanted, but in truth it was extraordinarily huge to do.

PLUME: A logistical nightmare?

OZ: A logistical nightmare – but I’m very proud of it.

PLUME: What were the complexities involved in getting the rights to the “Jurassic Park” T-Rex, Robocop, Darth Vader, etc. for the toys in “Indian in the Cupboard”

OZ: I don’t know. Somebody else did that. I know I called George’s office and got permission personally through George (Lucas) for Darth Vader, but the other production people got the other stuff.

PLUME: There have been some rumors about difficulties during the post production of “Indian and the Cupboard” – including rumors the film had been taken away from you during the post production process.

OZ: The film was not taken away from me. There was an argument I had…

What I do is, I like to get a movie out in front of an audience two weeks after I shoot it, which is really kind of unusual, but I like to do that. I want civilians. I want people who don’t know me at all.

I wanted to go to New Jersey or New York or someplace, but Sherry Lansing wouldn’t allow it, and this goes back to the Internet. She was scared that an unfinished film that cost that much money would be seen by people and the Internet would start criticizing it not having given it a chance.

I was angry because I needed to have civilians, so we compromised, because I didn’t want just a bunch of friends in a room, so we flew into Los Angeles and did it with civilians where it was protected on the Paramount lot. But it wasn’t taken away from me, no. I’ve never had that happen.

PLUME: Could you comment on this, and on the replacement of Mile’s Goodman’s score with Randy Edelman’s score?

OZ: Bud (Miles Goodman) was one of my closest friends in the world, who’s scored almost all my movies.

It was a situation where I was hesitant hiring my good friend to do something that I had not seen him do before, and Bud and I had a talk about it. He said, “You just don’t want to hire me because you’re concerned about having to fire a friend.” I said, “That’s true.” He said, “Well give me an opportunity,” and I said, “Okay…” because I thought he was brilliantly talented.

So he had the score, and the producers and the writer didn’t think the score was that successful, and in the long run, I had to agree with them – it wasn’t happening. So I had to say to Bud, “Sorry Bud, we have to go with somebody else,” and Randy came in and finished it and did a very good job.

You know, there’s some movies that I can’t direct…that I just can’t hit…and that’s fair enough, but Bud went in as an adult with his eyes open. Fortunately, thank God, before he passed away (which is one of the mortal blows in my life, because he was a good and dear friend) I asked Bud to do the music for In & Out. So he knew everything was fine with us, and he did a great job.

PLUME: In & Out…

OZ: I remember that we all got sick and we had to stop the production because we all got the flu. It was thrilling to be able to work with all of those actors and with Paul Rudnick and Scott Rudin.

I remember that the relationship with my actors was really wonderful, and with Scott and Paul was wonderful. I had a great time with them, but it was very tough, mainly because Scott is very demanding for quality – and I am too – so that was great. I also had a fine line to tread. I had to be very, very watchful that this movie (about homosexuality) was intended to be a screwball comedy – and I had to be very watchful that it didn’t offend and was accepted.

So I had to be very watchful that it was very funny and pointed at the same time, otherwise it would have just gone over the line or it would be pathetic or too mean-spirited. I didn’t want to make a comment on homosexuality, I wanted to have a sense of acceptance of the people involved. I was very much on guard to make sure that the tightrope was walked properly.

PLUME: And it was widely accepted?

OZ: So it seems. I was very pleased about that.

PLUME: And finally, Bowfinger…

OZ: Bowfinger was watching the brilliance of Eddie Murphy work. He’s a brilliant performer and it’s wonderful to see him work. Again, it’s the people I work with… my crew, always… the producer, First DP, camera operator, and my actors. And of course, to get to work with Steve (Martin) again. It kind of goes without saying.

That’s why, in part, I did the movie – and also because of Brian Grazer and the people at Imagine. The more work I do, the more important it is to work with people I like who are very talented. So I remember the actors and the fun we had… I had a lot of fun with the actors in that one, and the crew.

The actors and crew got along great. I have great memories of working with all those actors and crew. And Steve, without saying, is a unique individual. He’s a gifted and brilliant performer and writer.

PLUME: He’s almost like the stock Frank Oz player…

OZ: Or I’m the stock director for Steve. We’re friends and I think we respect each other’s work.

PLUME: I think that shows through in the final product as well…

OZ: Well, I hope so. He never stops working and I guess I’m the same way. It’s all about the people and the company that hires you and those people, the actors and talent… That’s my reaction probably to every movie.

PLUME: And does that atmosphere on the set play through in the final product?

OZ: I guess it does, but on the other hand, you’ll see movies like Casablanca which was hell, supposedly, and it turned out great.

PLUME: But “Casablanca” wasn’t a comedy…

OZ: That’s true, but there was tension on the set during What About Bob? And it came out fine. It’s an odd thing because, on the one hand, you’d like to say that if the atmosphere is good, that’ll help, but on the other hand, if you go to the original Bedtime Story with David Niven and Marlon Brando you’ll see it didn’t make any money and it was a failed attempt in certain ways, but I understand they had a ball on the set.

PLUME: Do you think it’s the difference between an animosity and a creative friction on the set?

OZ: If it’s animosity, I run for the f***in’ hills. But if the extraordinary tension is because people want to make the movie better and have their own strong viewpoints, I have time for that.

PLUME: During this time, it seemed like you were, to a certain extent, distancing yourself from the Muppets. Was it merely just a time consideration, or an active plan?

OZ: It was both. It was a time consideration and it was also planned, because the more I did the Muppets, I thought the less credible I’d be as a director in the beginning. Now I think I’ve reached a point with the Muppets where I’m there as much as possible.

The real reason that it was planned was because the Muppets are so iconic and so strong. I’ve made a policy over the last 15 years of not having any picture with my characters and I, at all, in the same shot. That is because, as a director, I can walk on a film and work 18 hours a day for a year – work my ass off – and people will see it and say, “Ah yeah, that was nice. That was a good film.” They see one picture of me and one of my characters and they’ll go apeshit. They’ll freak out and say, “You do that character!”

The power of the Muppets, and the popularity of these characters, is so iconic in people’s lives, that I had to distance myself from publicly. Not privately… Privately, hell, I’m with them for life and I love these people. They’re my second family. But publicly I have to distance myself from it so I can gain a little bit of credibility as a director and not have the power of those characters overwhelm who I am.

At the same time, there’s tremendous love for the people there and the characters. You can’t do those characters without loving them. I think I’ve gotten to the point where I still don’t allow pictures, but now I’m developing the next Muppet movie which I’ll direct, I hope, so I’m with them for life.

PLUME: How big a blow was Jim’s passing to you?

OZ: You just can’t express it in words. I’d known him since I was 17. It was a mortal blow to a part of me, and always will be.

PLUME: Everyone always describes the bond that you and Jim has as performers and friends…

OZ: That’s very precious and that’s very nice. I think we had a yin and yang feeling. He and I were so extraordinarily different in many ways that I think we kind of filled each other’s empty holes in certain aspects. I am in no means closer than his wife and children, but on a professional level and as friends, I guess our relationship was special.

PLUME: Was it hard to continue on with the company after Jim?

OZ: Yeah, but I think it was harder for Jim’s kids and his wife. I think it was hardest for them, not in a professional way like “How are we going to get this company growing as much?”

We lost somebody we loved. We lost somebody we loved dearly. It was very difficult. Then after that, it was how can we continue on with the company and make it grow. It was difficult, but people stepped up to the plate, and Brian Henson was one of them… David Lazer and Charlie Rifkin and the family. It was a difficult time.

PLUME: How would you characterize the company after Jim? Do you think it’s fully stabilized yet?

OZ: It’s stabilized, certainly. I think there’s a breadth to it that wasn’t there before, and I think it’s financially more secure. The difference is that there’s not that one leader that began the company, it’s now his son, and his son is doing a magnificent job. But it has to be slightly different.

Jim was a magnificent innovator and performer, but Brian has other strengths. He’s a great performer also and into technology just like his father, but it’s more of a bigger corporation than a smaller company, and I think in today’s world you have to be more of a corporation to survive than a smaller mom & pop company, like it was.

I think that’s the main difference. The spirit is till there, maybe because almost all the key people who are there were people that Jim hired. They’re still there.

PLUME: The Muppet Franchise seems to be struggling, and seems to have lost a certain spark. Do you agree with that assessment?

OZ: I think in certain areas that it’s struggling. In the last movie it was struggling – I don’t think the last movie was up to what it should have been. I think Muppets From Space was not the movie that we wanted it to be. I think we’ve lost our way a little bit in certain areas, but in other areas, like the Creature Shop, we’re doing fantastic work, and so is Sesame Street.

PLUME: Is it just a matter of reestablishing the Muppets as a viable franchise?

OZ: It’s not that corporate, it’s more a spark. That’s why I want to do the next Muppet movie, because I’m excited about a particular idea, and the idea is something that Jim and Jerry Juhl and I thought of 15 years ago. So that still excites me. I think the crux of it has been – and I think it’s getting much better now – is that the key people don’t have the time to do everything.

The key people did everything before: Jim and me and Richard Hunt and Jerry Juhl and Jerry Nelson and Dave Goelz and Steve Whitmire and Kevin Clash and so on, but we now have a brilliant new group of performers like Bill Barretta, who’s an amazing performer.

But all the performers can’t do everything, we have a lot of productions, and I think we realized that we’ve really got to put our key people into the most important stuff and then have them teach the other people so it can be spread around a little bit more. I think it’s been lacking in some areas, but in other areas, I think it’s pretty f***ing exciting!

PLUME: I was most impressed by the atmosphere your imminent arrival caused amongst the puppeteers on the set of Muppets From Space…

OZ: I’m totally dumb to that. What happened?

PLUME: You’ve become a hero to them, and they held you in a great deal of awe. Almost like a rock star was visiting the set.

OZ: I never think about that. I just report for work. It never crosses my mind.

I think it’s because, in part, they feel that through me they can get to Jim. I think it’s not just me. I think it really is a great deal more that I worked with Jim so much, that in working with me, they work with Jim. I can’t take it as personally as me. I think I represent certain things to them.

PLUME: And, to a certain extent, it’s like working with a figure from their childhood…

OZ: Right, and again, I represent having worked with Jim in the original days and the original characters like Bert and Ernie and stuff. So I’m very grateful that that’s the feeling. But I also know that…certainly…part of it is what I represent.

PLUME: How much of your background in performing impacts your method of directing?

OZ: I think greatly. I think the fact that I’m a performer and that I’ve done live shows since I was a kid (I’ve been performing for about 35 years) I think impacts in me a sense that I have some relationship to other actors – and I have some relationship to an audience which translates into some spontaneity. All I can do as a director is hope that I’m the normal Joe like anybody else. That’s what a director is. First thing he is is an audience.

PLUME: You can also relate to your actor’s point of view?

OZ: Yeah, but it’s so prideful…in a bad way…to talk about how certain things (like being a performer) helps me to see things a certain way, because the truth is that you could talk to other actors I’ve worked with and they may hate my guts for the way I direct. I have no idea. So I don’t want hubris to take over here, because that’s very easy when you’re being interviewed like this.

PLUME: When did George Lucas approach you to reprise your Yoda role?

OZ: Rick McCallum did. George is a busy guy, so Rick called me maybe about a year before.

PLUME: Did it seem to you a bit incongruous to have a puppeteered Yoda amongst a sea of CGI?

OZ: I was a little surprised that George would want Yoda back – but he feels that there’s an organic quality to Yoda that’s endearing to people. Not to say that the next one he does won’t be CGI, but he felt that Yoda needed to be live (for Episode I). That could change next time, but it didn’t seem incongruous at all.

I was asked to do the job…I love the character…I really like working with George because he knows what he’s doing and knows what he wants – and it’s wonderful to be part of film history. So I just go there and work my ass off.

PLUME: What are your thoughts on the critical backlash the film has received?

OZ: I think it’s bullshit.

PLUME: Do you think it was a matter of the press creating the hype, and then needing to tear it down?

OZ: F***in’-a, I mean, if that was the first film out – and there was no Star Wars, Empire or Jedi – they’d be falling all over themselves about how fantastic it was.

I read the script a year before, because George decided to let me read the whole thing because I decided Yoda needed to know what was going on, and I thought it was a great script. And I’m not kissing his ass. I don’t need to do that. I thought it was a terrific script, and I cracked up with Jar Jar. I thought he’d be the next big character.

I think he (Lucas) created an extraordinary world. I think you can’t win when you have that much of a build-up. That was build-up was the most amazing build-up for a movie outside of Gone With The Wind. The biggest problem with movies are expectations. The expectations of the press, the expectations of the people. You can never live up to those kind of expectations – ever. I mean, if God tap-danced, they would still be unhappy with those kind of expectations. I think the expectations had a great deal to do with the quality of the reviews.

PLUME: How do you think it will be viewed in the future?

OZ: I think it will be viewed as one part of the whole, and a necessary part to get where George wants to go with the other parts.

PLUME: Are you looking forward to reprising the role in two more films?

OZ: Oh yeah. I said to George, “I’m there” and he plans to bring him (Yoda) back. If he brings him back in CGI…and I just do the voice…that’s okay too.

OZ: How did he first get involved with John Landis?

OZ: John was a fan of Grover on Sesame Street and, while doing The Muppet Movie, Jim and I became friendly with him and went over to his house. John and I have become friends.

PLUME: Have more acting roles come up?

OZ: Not yet – not lately. I asked John if he’d be in my movie, and he asked me if I’d be in his movies – just for fun. But it hasn’t happened for awhile.

PLUME: How do you think the Internet has changed the ways you promote and protect a film project?

OZ: I don’t know about protection. I’m not that smart. I can’t speak of that.

PLUME: Do you feel more nervous about a sneak showing of early rough cuts because of sites like AICN (Aint It Cool News)?

OZ: Yeah. I think that’s really shitty. It’s like saying to a writer, “Okay, I want to see your first draft,” and then criticizing the first draft when you have 18 more drafts go. It’s bullshit.

I think it’s unfortunate because the Internet has become so powerful…and is becoming even more powerful…that it has a bearing on how the film is marketed, how much money is put into a movie, and it has a bearing on how the executives feel and how the actors feel.

I think it’s really shitty that people make judgements on a movie that’s not finished. For crying out loud, wait until we’re ready to present it to you! That’s all. Unfortunately, for some reason, people feel that they’re able to comment on movies before they’re finished. It’s crazy. You’ve got to give the artist the opportunity to finish his f***ing work. You can’t all of a sudden say to a painter who’s just drawn the pencil sketch, “I don’t like that. There’s not enough color.” Well, I haven’t put the color in yet!

It’s really shitty. These people have no idea what the post-production process can do to a movie.

PLUME: And it’s also based on large part on the personal opinion of the reviewer…

OZ: Of course. And also – the audience on that particular night, and also how much this one person who writes on the Internet wants to be self-aggrandizing. It’s a clich?, but hey, everybody’s a critic.

PLUME: There are also people who hate something for the sake of saying they hated it…

OZ: Exactly, and that’s why I don’t work with focus groups. Because the truth is, after you see a movie, a focus group is asked, “What are your favorite characters?”, “What do you like about this,” “What do you like about that,” and they’re forced into becoming a critic. Normally you wouldn’t be asked those questions, because usually when you leave a movie…and you’re there with your date…or your wife…or whatever…you say, “How’d you like it?” That’s it.

That’s why I listen to focus groups kind of like a wash. If there’s one thing that comes out of the focus groups that everybody kind of intuitively feels, I’ll listen to that, but that’s it. Nothing else. I’ve got to go by the seat of my pants in the long run.

PLUME: Do you think that gut-instinct, seat-of-you-pants attitude has been lost in most films today because of focus groups?

OZ: I can’t speak for other films. I know the way I do previews, I don’t allow that to happen. I can’t. I’ll listen to cards if, again, if the cards react in the same intuitive way I did. They can guide you in certain things and occasionally can be helpful, but in the long run, it’s the seat of your pants.

When you sit in the audience and it’s the ebb, flow, and rhythm of the laughter and the feelings and the coughing. That’s what it’s about to me.

PLUME: What can you tell me about your next film, “The Score”? It sounds like a bit of a departure for you.

OZ: Right now we have Robert De Niro and probably Edward Norton and we’re working on the script. Basically, it’s a change of pace for me. It’s a film about an older thief being blackmailed into doing a heist by a younger thief.

PLUME: Would you describe it as a drama, or a comedy or a dramedy?<

OZ: It’s not a comedy or a dramedy at all, there’s no humor in it. If there’s any humor at all, it’s only by natural human interaction. It’s a definite drama. A thriller/drama/heist movie kind of a thing.

PLUME: So definitely a departure for you…

OZ: Oh definitely, yeah.

PLUME: Something you’re looking forward to?

OZ: Oh yeah, I’ve been looking forward to it for a long time. I’m in a very good position. I haven’t f***ed-up comedies yet, so I keep getting the best comedy scripts. But I haven’t gotten the best opportunities in drama yet, and now here’s an opportunity to do something where I think the bones are really terrific, and now we just have to flesh it out with more writing.

PLUME: And it’s a good way to expand your range as well?

OZ: Yeah, I mean I love mashed potatoes like I do comedy, but I don’t want to eat mashed potatoes every day of my life. I look forward to going back to comedies, like I look forward to hopefully doing the next Muppet movie – then going back to another comedy. But you want to have a career like Billy Wilder…who went from comedy to Lost Weekend…just all over the place. That’s what you want to do, and have fun.

PLUME: How does it feel to realize that you have a hand (quite literally) in three American institutions (Sesame, Muppets, Star Wars)?

OZ: I don’t know – I guess it’s a proud feeling. I don’t think about it very much. Now that you bring it up – if I even thought of it, it’s a proud feeling. There’s a pride there that I was a party to that. Of course, I am only one of many who are a party to all those things – but I’m proud of my part.

PLUME: Is there a film you’ve turned down that you regretted not doing?

OZ: No. I’ve turned some big films down, but that’s because I didn’t feel I could do them. Not that I wasn’t able to do them, I just didn’t have a vision – I didn’t have a take on it. I don’t regret the films that I’ve said “no” to. Many films I’m very, very happy I said “no” to. There are a few films that are big successes that I just didn’t have a take on. I just couldn’t see it.

PLUME: Is there a film that you’ve wanted to do but could never get moving on?

OZ: There’s an idea that I have, but I really don’t want to share it. It may happen in the future. It’s the only one I really have passion for. The other stuff I do comes from the scripts I get. This one comes from me.

PLUME: In the end, when all is said and done, what do you want your legacy to be?

OZ: Christ, have I died already? I guess the most important thing was to be a good father and husband.

PLUME: Finally, in reference to a quote you made many years ago: do you now get noticed when you go to the store to buy a can of beans? How does it feel?

OZ: Only occasionally. When I am, it soothes my flaming ego, but I don’t want to do that much of it. I’m not a shy person, but I do like my privacy…

10 QUESTIONS

1. What is your favorite piece of music?

One of the many Mose Allison songs.

2. What is your favorite film?

Citizen Kane.

3. What is your favorite TV program, past or current?

Everybody Loves Raymond and C-SPAN.

4. What do you feel has been your most important professional accomplishment to date?

The Score.

5. Which project do you feel didn’t live up to what you envisioned?

Little Shop Of Horrors.

What is your favorite book?

Poetry Of Emily Dickinson.

7. If you could change one thing about Hollywood, what would it be?

Give the same respect to comedy as there is to drama.

8. If you could change one public perception of yourself, what would it be?

I don’t know what the public perception of me is.

9. What is your next project?

Don’t know.

10. What is the one project that you’ve always wanted to do, but have yet to be able to?

Don’t want to tell you or someone else will do it..

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