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RFR Q&A #48: Return To Rebels (Patreon)

Published:
2020-12-08 04:11:05
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2026-06
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Content

STAR WARS REBELS gets revisited as RFR VIP Nate Wenzel joins Jimmy Mac to provide in-depth analysis, insight, and opinion about the popular animated series. Nate opens with the question: "What is the purpose of Star Wars Rebels?" From that foundation builds an interesting and enlightening dive into the characters and situations that contribute to the larger STAR WARS saga. Nate entered the conversation with the goal of convincing Jimmy Mac that the show has more value than he thinks. Listen to see if he succeeded! 

Become an RFR VIP and you can host an episode and choose the topic, just like Nate!

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Comments

Keith Say

I adore Rebels, it got me back into Star Wars after many years

Blake Weaver

Great discussion fellas. I watched Rebels for the first time just this year and I adore it. It made the force feel magical again which the sequels FAILED miserably at to me. And while the characters may have been hit or miss just the fact the show felt so original trilogy with its look was all I needed to stay invested.

Nathan Wenzel

100% Some great original content that fits snugly into the OG trilogy. Plenary of action great story and suspense. Great framework that didn’t feel like a rip off.

Antonio from NJ

Oh boy ill have my respectful remarks but Jimmy's dismissal of rebels in season3-4 is tough. Jimmy im about to update my patron status to debate you hah

Jeff LeCrone

A comment on the epilogue stuff - who's to say that everything that happens in it is at the same time? I think that Sabine's narration happens years after what she's narrating.

Sean W. from Warsaw

So I have a TON of stuff to say on this. Forgive me if I overstep my boundaries somewhere, but I'm gonna go deep!

Sean W. from Warsaw

I greatly appreciated you pushing back against Jimmy in relation to the Force. It was the best part of this discussion. It was the part where Jimmy was expressing his disillusionment with the way the Force is presented in Rebels via the World Between Worlds, special objects and places, etc, and how those things are very much like holy things in our own world. I really like that Nate stood his ground to say that there is still plenty of mystery in the Force; that the Force being shown or represented via the World Between Worlds doesn't take away from it or cheapen it, but actually adds to it. For a long time I've been unsure as to where Jimmy was coming from, and this discussion helped me understand that better. So hearing Nate push push back against the disillusionment with some success was really encouraging.  It's part of some of the best discussions for getting to the heart of deep stuff like the Force.

Sean W. from Warsaw

What I don't understand, though, is why there's so much pushback to Mortis or the World Between Worlds being taken literally. If it's for the fear that the Force is cheapened by such a notion, how so? How would it be cheapened if a physical place could exist so strong in the Force that life, death, time and space all operate in vastly different, even miraculous, ways? Wouldn't that only add to the mystery of it exponentially, rather than take away from it? Some might argue, "Well, no it doesn't take away from it, but that doesn't mean that either of those places still has to be a physical place, either." But such an argument would be too reductive and would still diminish their importance as places truly miraculous and beyond explanation that only show how much about the Force we don't know. It's alot like in my own Christian faith, in which I hear arguments that try to disprove the historical reliability of the events described in the Bible. Many people look at so many of those events and say the miraculous couldn't happen, and that to say otherwise would discredit the reliability of said historical events. But I hear so few arguments that try to harmonize both the miraculous and the historical. Why couldn't the miraculous happen in history; the unexplainable in grounded reality? If God is real, and took part in history, couldn't it be just as is described? Why do, say, the Exodus, the Resurrection, etc, "have" to be mere metaphors for so many people and not even potentially real? Especially if the evidence is strong to support that. And the same with places and objects. History is full of strange and miraculous places and objects, like the Holy Grail. But their strangeness doesn't necessitate that they couldn't have existed--especially if evidence supports that. Likewise, going back to the topic of Mortis and the World Between Worlds, why couldn't there be these unexplainable places in reality in which the miraculous converges with the mundane? Jimmy cited why he doesn't think so in that he's always seen the Force as something spiritual, but only in a personal, internalized way. But why can't it be external as well as internal? Why couldn't Mortis or the World Between Worlds be actual places to provide greater spiritual development for people--the external Force for the sake of the internal? (Even Filoni once commented on the concept of the World Between Worlds as a place that's not about power but wisdom. And I've heard some comments that basically say the same about Mortis.) I think to say otherwise, that physical places like Mortis or the World Between Worlds shouldn't exist, greatly risks diminishing the Force and its truly otherworldly and almost limitless potential as one of the greatest spiritual storytelling devices ever created.

Sean W. from Warsaw

Star Wars is a place of great wonders and fears; of dark magic and miracles. It is a story about the singular energy that drives the universe, and at its most powerful allows people to pass through death itself. You really can't put that kind of a place, that kind of a story, in a box by saying such and such is outside of "the rules." Wonders, magic, and miracles don't work in a box. By their nature, they work outside of our understanding of the world in ways that don't make sense to us.

Sean W. from Warsaw

Another good reason why Mortis is clearly a real place and not merely a vision is that in the Yoda arc, Yoda asks Anakin about his visitation by Qui-gon on Mortis. Anakin clearly believed he went to a real place to have told Yoda about Mortis in the first place; and Yoda without question responded in kind.   Using a sort of forensic or apologetic approach, when all of the evidence for Mortis is added up, is it possible it was just a vision? Of course. But it's not reasonable.   Why is it so important it was real? Because it is important to the ongoing narrative and the characters referring to it. If it were really just a vision, no one would take it so seriously in that world, and the narrative wouldn't either. Given that the Anchorites are fairly clearly represented on that rock wall in Rebels, I think it's a fair thing to say they were real beings that could be interacted with physically. Clearly, the Jedi of the distant past had seen them with their own eyes to have put their images on the temple. I find it doubtful various people from various times were having their own Force visions of the same exact images! Besides that, Sidious himself addresses them as being real in part because he wants their power; and that historian or advisor of his mentions various records in the Jedi Temple that mention the Anchorites as real beings. The Anchorites themselves mention how they had lived out in the galaxy at one point before they were more or less exiled to Mortis, where it sounds like they were self-contained by the Father. The Father says at one point that the Jedi knew of them, I believe; but that the Anchorites' power could easily be abused by others, so they had to remain hidden. Keep in mind, too, that Obi-wan gets a distress call over a thousand years old just before they go into Mortis, which seems to lend credence to the tangible reality of the Anchorites in time, space, and in history. But I think they are definitely of a higher power, a higher order of being, than the galaxy has seen in millennia. Something ancient and beyond comprehension. Not entirely unlike the Bendu. In other words, nature made manifest in a literal way. I think they harness the power of nature and of the Force to such a high degree that they possess powers beyond imagining, able to do things with the mind, with physical objects like their own world, that defy comprehension. I'm not sure why it's a problem for a lot of people to see how it's even a possibility. If the Force really is the power that drives the galaxy, why couldn't there be these miraculous and supernatural beings out there able to do things so powerful they are labelled by some as "gods"? I don't think the Force should be put into a box. To do so is a disservice to the deeper truths it represents--or at least comes very close to being a disservice. It seems clear to me that the Force doesn't have such limitations. Isn't that what makes it so endlessly compelling to talk about, after all? Why not broaden one's horizons and accept that it defies such efforts to define it? It's like what Ahsoka says to Ezra: The more you learn about the Force, the more you realize how much more there is to learn. ;)

Sean W. from Warsaw

When you think about the Force and how it operates as this energy field binding everything together, it seems so much like many coursing rivers that end up linked together. Some areas of the rivers will be much calmer than others, just as some rivers themselves will be much stronger than others, with the current being especially strong in specific areas of all kinds of rivers. I kinda get this impression that's what vergeances are, and why some places and people just have more power than others: Either these rivers converge, or the person, place, or object is just a strong current.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49187384

Lol I was tempted to take the debate up in my next Q and A, myself! Instead I decided to write out my thoughts below. Check it out! I'd like to get a good discussion going.

Sean W. from Warsaw

I had another good thought on this amazing episode, guys. If both places are merely metaphorical, you quickly run into some bizarre problems! For instance, at which points do either places start to be simply metaphors and end as mere metaphors? For the World Between Worlds, remember Hera herself saw Ezra disappear into the wall with the painting; and the Emperor himself physically interacted with Ezra while there. How would you account for those instances if the place is just a metaphor--especially knowing that you heard the Emperor and his advisor talking about trying to enter into that world? What about the wolves bringing the rebels directly to the temple in that miraculous way, and bringing Ezra the stone needed to unlock the door to the temple? Everyone experienced both of these things, including the stone; and Sabine and even Palpatine's advisor saw the paintings move. How do you account for the temple and all the Imperials and their whole operation completely disappearing altogether? Is that just a part of the metaphor, too? I'm sure the Imperials would disagree! If all of this is a mere metaphor, wouldn't the rebels there on Lothal all be blowing the whole thing with the temple out of proportion? What would that, in turn, say about Kanan's sacrifice? He seemed to understand that there was a way bigger picture happening to justify his death and listening to the wolves. How real would the threat to the galaxy really be if the World Between Worlds was just a metaphor? For that matter, what would it make of Ahsoka's lesson to Ezra about how unwise it would be to bring Kanan back? And how could Ahsoka have died by Vader's hand when Vader clearly missed his mark and fell into a hole? At which point does this whole supposed metaphor begin or end, or at which point does reality begin or end in relation to this supposed metaphor? These are all serious problems with this idea if you really believe it's a metaphor!

Sean W. from Warsaw

So much cool stuff to discuss in this Q and A, gents. Thanks so much for bringing your A game to the table and opening up the imagination and helping the rest of us to really flex some philosophical muscles!

Peter Beisser

Sean W went deep there. Good stuff. Makes me question how big a fan I am. Another great convo sparked from an RFR episode. Love it.

Scott Armstrong

I think Ahsoka was meant to die in Rebels, then Filoni changed his mind. One man's opinion.

David Fieldsend

Great comments Sean! I also enjoyed this discussion. I’ve been confused by Jimmy’s reluctance to entertain the idea that the Force could manifest in a way that the force user would experience aa a physical place, because the force as we know it is invoked as a spiritual energy flowing through and interacting with physical things, as a jedi would move rocks, or stop a blaster bolt, or leap to the top of a roof. A lightside force ghost uses the force to harness his or her consciousness and present it to an embodied living person. Why couldnt the world between worlds be a powerful lightside tool that allows an embodied living force user to enter into an unembodied realm, then return to the embodied world? How do we know that force ghosts dont actually reside in the world between worlds? Maybe their experience of searching for the exact right time to influence the embodied jedi (like obiwan finding the moment of consciousness to guide Luke to destroy the Deathstar) is similar to Ezra’s experience of walking along interdimensional paths and finding and saving Ahsoka? The only difference is the world between worlds offers an added power of interacting with the physical. In fact, Luke does something similar when he catches Rey’s lightsaber.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49262768

That's a really cool way of looking at it, actually! I've always liked that scene. Might just change the way I look at it now! So cool!

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49262768

I've wondered for a long time now what Vader's reaction must have been when he saw Ahsoka just disappear only for himself to fall into a pit--and then later on Obi-wan disappears. Lol Trippy stuff for a Sith Lord....

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49244729

I've wondered about that a little. Maybe the studio execs wouldn't let it happen, even. We'll likely never know for sure. Still, I do like what became of the final choice. Opened up the world in some vast ways.

Steven M DuBrey

While, I am super pro Rebels, I just want to say Jimmy’s dislike of this show is valid. We are all welcome to our opinions. I’ve read all of the new marvel stuff on his recommendations listening to RFR and I think it’s been 99% garbage. We all gravitate to different parts of Star Wars and I think the people that want it to lean harder into the fantasy aspects are the people who like Rebels. That would be my answer to the purpose of Rebels question: it ups the magic aspects of the force. Really pushes the “space wizard” angle.

Sean W. from Warsaw

As to the purpose of Rebels, I honestly don't think it's much of a mystery. I think it's a story of a young man coming into his own and becoming a Jedi really not much different in thematic nature from the OT. But it does it in a way that, as Nate so eloquently explored, compliments the struggles of the OT and Luke in particular.

Steven M DuBrey
>>49279086

I think you hit the nail on the head there: “compliments the OT.” That’s what Filoni does. He creates stories that compliment Lucas’ trilogies .

Steven M DuBrey
>>49190992

Pretty well said. I always think of it as a why can’t it be both literal and metaphorical situation? Why do they have to be separate?

Steven M DuBrey
>>49230972

Nah to both of you. Pete, I’m sure there’s some aspect of Star Wars you’re that passionate about. And Sean really connects with Rebels. There is so much Star Wars, you gotta latch on to yours.

Steven M DuBrey
>>49244729

I don’t think so. I think Filoni has always been pushing Star Wars to a more magical place, maybe even at the behest of Lucas. I would bet this Gandalf resurrection/ time travel business was always his back door out for her.

Steven M DuBrey
>>49262768

Am I the only one who thinks that the Vader scene at the end of the Clone Wars finale takes place immediately following the duel on Malachor. Like after she disappeared he was like “WTF? I better go check out that crash site. “

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49262768

I like it! Never thought about it before but it makes sense. Especially considering that he sees the convoree as he was leaving Malachor and as he was about to leave the crash site. Maybe a little visual cue there to clue In the audience as to the time frame? Good speculation!

ANDREW KNUDSON

Great conversation guys! I've always liked rebels even though it has its flaws. What a great time to be a star wars fan!

Trevor Hallam

Sean you need to go back on another Q & A and talk about all that with Jimmy!! I freaking love your points of view! Nate and Jimmy, great conversation, and mark me down for wanting an Heir to the Empire animated series 👍🏼

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49299087

Thanks Trevor! Also, are you aware of the 3-D animated adaptation a fan is doing on YouTube? His name is Darth Angelus. He's already done quite a few episodes. Really well done given it's just one guy with limited means.

Steven M DuBrey

Also: the lightsabers!!! Best lightsabers ever. So pointy! Love the flicker!! The bass!! Oh, the bass when they ignite!!!

Nathan Wenzel

Wow I look away from Patreon for one day and there are a ton of comments.! Thanks for taking the lead on the discussion Sean! The whole metaphors thing is a complicated one. I believe that while Mortise feels like a physical place it’s more “kind of a dream” or “Something familiar” The characters experience “only what they take with them” They are only under for a few seconds but all 3 of them feel they did go somewhere. Much like when we experience a dream we are only experiencing it in the real world for a few seconds. The things we encounter during the day that we may not think much about can sometimes be major events in our dreams. In the middle of all of this is the force. “It constantly speaks to us” telling us it’s Will. The 3 characters are in quiet and in the middle of space. That’s what the “Mortis God are represented as. Physical beings in their dreams. The world between worlds on the other hand is 100% a real place. I can show the visitor the future and the past. Fate and Destiny. Much like the mirror of Galadriel. The visitor must choose the path they must take. The Jedi must have placed the temple there to protect that power from getting into the wrong hand. Even though they too didn’t truly understand it. It was a place that Jedi took their trials. “Through the force, things you will see other places. The future, the past, old friends long gone” maybe that’s where all Jedi get their “sight” from? The World Between Worlds.

Nathan Wenzel

I also find it interesting that the Mortis Gods painted on the temple. Clearly others have been visited by them. Maybe in their dream? Sometimes for us to see what we may not understand a physical representation of it is created so that we are familiar with it. Perhaps the Force that surrounds us uses these shapes and physical manifestations to communicate with us so we can better understand its will.

Trevor Hallam
>>49299087

I’ve heard of it, it haven’t watched it yet. Love that fans are doing this stuff.

Trevor Hallam
>>49350046

Totally forgot about that. How would it be there if others hadn’t seen it before...

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49350046

I think the idea you present that the Mortis stuff is more dreamlike or ethereal is interesting, for sure, and a perspective I can get on board with far more than the idea that it's merely metaphorical. But a couple things still continue to draw me back to the conclusion that it was something more tangible, but of powers that mortals just can't fully grasp. We see that the Anchorites have the powers to manipulate one's mind, dreams, fears, and even take over a person entirely. They talk about how their world is basically like a cornerstone, so that if it falls into darkness the rest of the galaxy is taken with it. If this sort of power is real, then they seem to have ultimate power, in many ways. It would make sense why the Father would have wanted to shut them away, lest their own power be manipulated. So entering into the minds of the three heroes while still being tangible and real in their own world would likely not be a big deal to them, even while having the whole event in their world seemingly take only a matter of seconds on the heroes' ship.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49350046

But I think the thing that draws me back to the idea that Mortis was a real, tangible place and that the Anchorites were real, tangible beings is how they reveal to Anakin his future...and take away that revelation, too. I have a hard time believing that something that's only supposed to be a dream could predict the future and then take away that knowledge! Between that and how they speak of themselves and their own history in some detail; how even Yoda in the Yoda arc asks Anakin about Mortis and his visitation by Qui-gon very matter-of-fact as though he has no question the place and the events were real (recall he was trying to discern if his own visitation was real); and other examples, I'm sure--it all seems to indicate they had a real experience...but something from way beyond. That Jedi over millennia had the same experiences independently would no doubt seal the case in a court of law, even, that something all too real and tangible had been experienced by many! Lol Independent testimony that lines up more or less with other independent testimony is usually fairly solid evidence for otherwise questionable experiences. (These testimonies being the paintings on the wall and also the records found in the Jedi Temple.)

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49350046

Honestly, we'll probably never know for sure. But that's a big part of the fun of all this stuff! Thanks so much for inspiring such conversation. :)

Nathan Wenzel

I think it’s totally real. Maybe not physical but still real. It was a real experience but in a dream sense. In reality it happened in a split second on the physical plane but in the metaphysical plane it took several days. That’s kind of what I was thinking. Totally agree with most of what you are saying.

Trevor Hallam
>>49350046

It also plays into the balance of the force question too. The Father is asking Anakin to take his place to basically “keep the balance” which he sort of does by (SPOILER) killing the son, obviously after the other two are dead. So it definitely is a metaphor for Anakins journey specifically, as well as being a sort of physical, spiritual, mental, etc. place.

Antonio from NJ

I love the convo! Reminds me of the old wookiepedia forums

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49491304

It's good stuff! Definitely worth talking about and discussing. Really gets to the heart of the wonder of Star Wars.