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RFR Q&A #49: Force Wielding Clones (Patreon)

Published:
2020-12-17 19:13:34
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2026-06
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Content

Can clones exhibit Force ability? Should they? There has been a ton of conflicting evidence presented over the years and RFR VIP Sean Wanty returns to talk all about it. We look back at EU stories like Dark Empire and Heir to the Empire, through current canon like the Sequel Trilogy and The Mandalorian. And, expect a few tangents along the way! 

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Comments

Antonio from NJ

This sounds awesome can't wait to deep-dive

Javier Solorzano

Don't tell Jason, but the Q&A's are starting to rival the weekly RFR episodes...shock!...Lol. Just kidding, the weekly RFR episodes are the Main Event everything else are Undercard Matches, still great though.

Jeff LeCrone

Regarding Mando’s guess that Baby Yoda might be a strandcast ... he said that to try to describe Baby Yoda’s powers, which Mando was not at all familiar with at the time. I think he was speculating that BY was engineered to have those powers.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49723488

That's a good idea. I hadn't thought about that before. "Strandcast" is still not precisely defined yet, correct? Or is it in a new SW book that I'm not aware of?

Sean W. from Warsaw

I really enjoyed talking about all this stuff in this episode! It was a lot of fun with Jimmy. I felt like we had a lot of good stuff to say. Some important stuff about Star Wars. However, I feel like I didn't quite drive my point home like I thought I did, listening to it just now. I'm so much better at writing! So here's what I was really trying to say in a nutshell: How could a being be created to have the Force? Are they engineered to have it? Or can it only be something that, in spite of efforts of engineering or design, can only be granted from the higher, cosmic powers? Is it something only given outside of anyone's control?   My guess would be yes. The idea that a bioengineer can somehow give someone the Force just...doesn't sit right with me. After all, that would seem to indicate that the bioengineer is, in many respects, the arbiter of cosmic power. If he could give a created being the Force, then likely somehow he could take it away, too. And this, in turn, would imply he could give the Force to an already grown person who doesn't have it; or take it away from someone who does. Which would make the Force far less of a spiritual thing and much more a mere biological one. The Force wouldn't be this great cosmic power anymore in which is intertwined destiny, fate, etc. And it wouldn't have a will. It's a complicated argument, but one which I think needs to be talked about a bit, especially in relation to how the Force is clearly shown to have some sort of a will towards balance, like with Palpatine's clone and all that.

Jeff LeCrone

Jimmy Mac: your comment about ‘like sports radio’ really hit with me. I used to listen to that all the time and for some reason fell away from it, but you two have really filled that gap for me.

Sean W. from Warsaw

  I really like the idea that though Palpatine tried to manipulate the Force by creating a clone of himself that that clone didn't possess the Force. It seems the Force had a will against him in this, and not just chance. The Force reacted against him. And likely Palpatine knew this. Otherwise he would probably have kept trying to create more clones. This in turn raises a really big question, which I wish I could have gotten into in this comversation: Why would the Force eventually will for an engineered being to have the Force if it's only to be evil and would do really bad things with it? If Snoke, for instance, is purely a bioengineered being, why would the Force not react against his existence as a Force-strong artificial being? This whole topic opens up all kinds of Pandora's boxes when you start breaking it down, especially on the cosmic level.

Sean W. from Warsaw

But, just because the bioengineers wouldn't be able to control whether a being has the Force doesn't mean they wouldn't try. I could see mad scientists trying and trying with more and more test subjects until an abomination is finally made.

Jeff LeCrone
>>49724964

I think you made that point rather well in the episode, actually. But I thought Jimmy had a good point too. Attempting to “create” force sensitivity is something that totally makes sense in a dark side context, especially if it ends in decay and destruction, as the dark side usually does. From that perspective I think you and Jimmy were agreeing more than you might think. If this is something that only dark siders attempt, and if it leads to death and destruction, that feeds into your intuition that it is not natural and is in fact fighting nature to make it possible.

Sean W. from Warsaw

  The Force has a will. And that will is centered on balance and preserving that harmony in nature and in societies. It clearly has an intelligence and a destiny for everyone.   I also like how the Force seems to have reacted against the attempt of the Sith to recreate a dyad via the rule of two. I'd love to see that explored a bit more. I wanted to talk about this in the episode, but it just didn't shake out that way. Next time!

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49725553

For those who don't know, the dyad is explored a little bit more in the TROS novelization. Really interesting stuff. The Sith were apparently trying to create a dyad with the rule of two in order to make all powerful beings. That it happens against their will is pretty cool! Seems to speak to how the Force keeps things in check and isn't just random.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49725008

For sure! I never fail to appreciate how good it is to nerd out with people who love this stuff! It's like when you don't really know what you have until it's gone or something, but in reverse. You feel it, anyways, when you try to talk to folks who don't get it.... lol

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49724964

Hmmm.... For sure. Perhaps that decay is, in and of itself, part of the reaction of the Force to maintain balance and harmony.

Blake Weaver

Sean you’re my favorite Q&A guest my man. The way your faith influences your view of the force and Star Wars as a whole is identical to how my own faith influences my views on the Wars. I agree with everything you said tonight. And I loved the shout out to good ol’ Billy Mac. I hope we get to hear him again soon.

Alexander Gates

Great discussion and fun episode. I love the tangents!

Sean W. from Warsaw

Oh, so I mentioned the perspective from Billy Mac and felt embarrassed I couldn't remember his words precisely, so I found them! This is from the TROS commentary. I haven't had the time to pinpoint all of his statements in the commentary, but the majority of it is found from around 53:00-56:00 or so into it. I couldn't quite get it verbatim, due to interruptions in the commentary and cross conversation, so I clarified a bit here and there for greater context. Here it is: Part of what makes a good story is delving into what makes a character human. You don't want a character to become impervious to injury or death, etc. There is a real human element that must be preserved.   This is a big part of the problem with characters like Rey, especially going into TROS and having so very much power.   The Force is much more subtle. It's not a superpower. It's more like human potential. It's something that reflects how when we put in real effort into something that we can perform something magical--but you don't want to take it too far. Otherwise the character becomes unrelatable.   Such is part of the problem with Rey.   Good drama is about the human condition. And the human condition is about pain and suffering and death. And when you begin to meddle with the ability to actually control these things to a certain degree (ala Rey's healing powers and being able to save people from death) the drama is lessened and the risks become less valid.

Blake Weaver
>>49735917

Absolutely agree. Rey was just too perfect and got it too easily. I get the force connection with Kylo and her being a Palpatine was part of it but my god...Luke AND Leia needed training to reach their potential and they were skywalkers. There’s no amount of circles they can draw that will make me accept her as a hero that’s earned it. I love Daisy Ridley which makes it more of a shame.

Matthew Dillingham

Jimmy Mac, she literally does jump back into the mirror.

Matthew Dillingham
>>49737648

Ahsoka I mean, she jumps back into her own mirror and we assume she lives out her days behind the scenes while seasons 3 and 4 go on

Antonio from NJ
>>49718181

I mean in my head canon the weekly shows are the OT, the Q&As are the prequels, and the babu freaks show is the Mando series.

Antonio from NJ

Sean Matt Rashid and Matt Rooney always bring it on QA! But Sean i love that you throw it down here too!

Antonio from NJ
>>49735917

While I don't agree 100% w you on Rey (plenty of material shows her training for example...as much as Luke and more than what is shown about Leia training)... I 100% do agree with stakes. What the mando series does so well is putting actual stakes on the table. This was something I felt personally was lacking in the ST. Even when Kylo killed Han it was clear that was part of his redemption arc. It never felt at risk. Finn, poe, rey (anyone not in the OT hah) felt like they were never at risk. Compare than to Harrison Ford at the end of Empire. Meanwhile on Mando it feels like you could have certain outcomes that are not...great. It feels like the gang can fail similar to the way it felt like the rebels could fail in empire. This also why I'm not a fan of the canto failure in TLJ, even though I enjoy the film. The failures in Empire were drivers in ROTJ. I get why RJ wanted to explore failures in TLJ but there was never risk.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49748357

It's fun! It's a good opportunity to fill in a bit more that I couldn't in the episode. And talking with everyone here is just such a pleasure. You guys are the best!

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49737648

True, that. I have to wonder if she got back into the duel with Vader, though.... I think that may have been what Jimmy was critical of.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49735917

Yeah.... I do still like Rey, but not all that much. I always try to keep it as positive as I can, but I'm also not gonna throw the obvious out the door, either. It's a real shame, for sure. But that's why I'm having these conversations with Jimmy: Trying to find what works. Good therapy, too! Lol

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49735917

I do, however, think that there's a good story to be told about her over abundance of power. No one should be able to wield so much power without consequence. This is something I hope to get into with Jimmy in a future episode: Her coming to grips with her own nature as the end result of a weird experiment to make a powerful being. Stay tuned!

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49737648

Good point. So it's possible she kept the duel going. I do remember there being a brief shot of her walking away at the end of season 2, though. So it seems she did indeed somehow survive the duel by going back to that moment with Vader and not copping out. Maybe the explosion separated them? In the words of Hamill: "It's possible." Lol

Fettmatic

Ahsoka did go back through the mirror during the end of the episode.

Rob Heaton

Hey Jimmy and Sean, religious studies PhD here! I heard your discussion about the pronunciation of Jorus C'baoth's name, and you're correct about "Sa-bay-oth" (or more properly, "oath") - Timothy Zahn lifted this from the Hebrew Bible where Yahweh S(ɛ)baoth is a name/title for god, usually translated as "The Lord of Hosts" or "The Lord of Armies," referencing the belief that God calls upon or commands an army of angels. Since this can't exactly be a coincidence, I've always thought Zahn's use of the name C'baoth signifies Thrawn's belief in his ability to orchestrate complex maneuvers, literally commanding imperial armies... anyway, make of this what you will, in the context of Force-wielding clones!

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49781406

Oh, nice! Wow, I have studied the Bible quite a bit, too, and I totally forgot all about that Hebrew word. Really good find! Thanks for sharing. :)

Fettmatic

Another awesome Q& A by Sean.

Philip Ehlke

I was cool with the idea of the Valley of the Jedi back from the Kyle Katarn video games, which is like a Force fountain that gives people Force powers. I just think taking any kind of shortcut is bad news, no matter how you go about it. I loved the concept of bizarre, evil, dark-side science explored in TROS. Seemed very in-character for a Sith Lord.

Sean W. from Warsaw
>>49850999

It is a cool concept, for sure. And I thought the way it was handled was decent. Just concerned for the future.