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Getting Schooled - Complementarianism 101 (Patreon)

Published:
2025-03-06 11:00:18
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

It’s finally here: Kaitlyn schools us on complementarianism.

It’s finally here: Kaitlyn schools us on complementarianism. She and Skye go over the different kinds of complementarianism, the verses used to justify it, and how weird this becomes in practical application.

Tell Her Story: How Woman Led, Taught, and Ministered in the Early Church by Nijay Gupta:

https://a.co/d/czUeSpI

Women in Ministry: Four Views (Spectrum Multiview Book Series) by Bonnidell Clouse, Robert Clouse, Robert Culver, Susan T. Fox, Walter L. Leifeld, and Alvera Mickelsen: https://a.co/d/0evVUea

Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Feminism by John Piper and Wayne Grudem: https://a.co/d/erWUkcF

Neither Complementarian Nor Egalitarian: A Kingdom Corrective to the Evangelical Gender Debate by Michelle Lee-Barnewall: https://a.co/d/1zzEXau

Files

Previews only

Comments

Naomi Smith

So, my thoughts on this…. In the garden, sin entered and interrupted/distorted the role of Adam (man) and Eve (woman) as priests. Since Jesus came to redeem us from this sin and restore our relationship to God and to usher in the kingdom of heaven, in this redeemed state, should (or could) Christian community look more like Eden where both men and women take up their roles as priests? Or is this too simplistic?

Willis Wanderings

Need to have Dr. Gary Hoag on for the Artemis Cult in Ephesus .

Willis Wanderings

Also … the 5 hour lecture Preston Sprinke gave on Kephale (head ) seemed inconclusive . .. it can mean source or leader .. so having Dr. Philip B Payne on would be good .

Willis Wanderings

Okay . One more Nijay Gupta mentioned in his book about Episkopos (overseer) has no male or female examples in the Bible . .. and when it comes to house church leaders in Rome … once the male leader of that house died the wife took over .

Joanna H

Thank you for having a respectful discussion about a theological perspective that you don't personally hold. It's why I love the Holy Post!

Charlie Hernandez

Have you considered the scholarly consensus regarding the authenticity of the pastoral letters? It appears that there is a general agreement among biblical scholars that these letters are not considered among the disputed letters attributed to Paul. What are your thoughts on this matter?

RobEberly

Interesting conversation. Thank you.

RobEberly

In your opinion; what role did ordained women in leadership play in the liberalization of main-line Christian denominations?

Brittany Rainey

I am one of the people who left complementarianism after reading “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” by Piper and Grudem. Reading “How God Sees Women” by Terran Williams helped to firmly plant me in the mutualist camp. 😅

Ben Kucenski

Yes. The Priest was the figure of Christ and Adam. That is why the Priests were male and had to be without blemish to offer a sacrifice. People with "blemishes" (the OT lists many, some permanent, some temporary) could do anything in the Temple except offer sacrifices. They still ate the holy and most holy offerings. What sexists ignore is the entire book of Hebrews. Jesus is literally the high priest now. Pastors are not priests. We are all members of the priesthood. No gender exclusions. We no longer need to be without blemish to come to God directly because Jesus makes us perfect. We absolutely must stop pretending 1 Timothy is anything but a forgery. It is apocryphal like so many other books rejected from the Bible. It has been absolute poison for the church and for souls. You don't get to just make up laws and claim God said so. God definitely did not say so. People who oppress women are going to be held to account. And they may not like the final judgement. "The husband of one wife" is by definition heretical. That was never a law God gave. The only law God gave is that Priests had to marry a virgin. When we see these things, we don't debate their validity, we just throw them in the trash because they contradict known scripture. That is the most basic test for what is and isn't scripture. Scripture cannot contradict known scripture. Not even Angels can invent laws.

Kainan Seth Joubert

Some other good books! Hearing Her Voice (John Dickson) - Complementarian author who holds that women should preach. I believe he's a Sydney Anglican, a Reformed, Evangelical, and Complementarian group of Anglicans who believe women can preach and be deacons, but would not ordain or recognized women as pastors/elders/rectors/bishops. Jesus, Justice, and Gender Roles (Kathy Keller) - Complementarian author in the Presbyterian Church in America. Tim Keller's wife. She and Tim also co-wrote a position paper for Redeemer NYC in 1989 you can find online. Men and Women in Christ (Andrew Bartlett) - Egalitarian author. Not sure his church affiliation. The last one is arguably the best book I've read on egalitarianism, and I am a complementarian! It helped me become way more nuanced and less rigid.

Sara Rob

This was good, but I wish they had gotten into how translation is an art and influences our perception. For example, in 1 Tim 2:12, authentein is read from a translation that defines it as "exercise authority," while "usurp authority" or "domineer" are also valid translations. And gynaiki is woman without a definite article that can also mean wife. So the passage can be translated as "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man" or also "I am withholding permission (epitrepō) for a wife to teach a husband and domineer him." I have many questions for complementarians about this and other passages. Of course the question about women and childbirth, but also why does Paul go from plural men and lifting of hands, plural women and modest apparel to singular woman and man (or wife and husband) in 1 Tim 2:12, then the singular she will be saved followed by the plural if they abide (ean meinosin). It frustrates me that church leadership is so willing to apply scripture that is hard to understand in ways that limit Christians. If you can't explain what is going on how can you be confident in its application?

Matthew Tiscareno

I really appreciated Kaitlyn's "steelmanning," especially when she spoke at length about the "reluctant complementarians" (such as myself) who reject any sexist theologizing but see a Scriptural command focusing narrowly on pastoral leadership and marriage that we must follow. However, her ability to respectfully and accurately represent this position was limited because it is not a position she holds. Conversely, Skye's constant "strawmanning" was quite tiresome. It's easy to "win" an argument when nobody in the room disagrees with you. The misrepresentations were numerous and the bashing was hard to stomach. Why don't you look up one of Kaitlyn's "reluctant complementarian" friends and get them on the podcast?

Noah Montgomery

Honestly, I wasn’t looking forward to this conversation when I saw the title, but I decided to listen anyway. I was expecting them to basically mock complementarian theology since they’ve made it clear in previous episodes that they’re both egalitarian. I wasn’t thrilled with the conversation, but it was a little better than I thought. They showed more respect for complementarian Christians and churches than I expected, but still wasn’t thrilled. I know the format is Skye asks questions and Kaitlyn schools him, but I don’t think the format worked well for this topic since there was no push back. Kaitlyn is a scholar but I still think her bias toward egalitarian theology showed through. So I’m not looking forward to the Egalitarian episode.

Carissa Brunk

Re: age that a boy becomes a man and a woman can no longer teach them, I asked my old pastor about that years ago and he said "middle school." I was shocked. This was one of the things that solidified my exit from complementarianism.

Jennifer Frank

This was very helpful. The Holy Post has really helped me understand that an egalitarian view can also be Biblical, and it really reinvigorated my faith and my desire to read the Bible for myself and learn the context to try to understand these confusing passages in some of the NT letters to the churches :)

Bruce Gaylord

I'm an egalitarian, and I have a few thoughts: - The Scriptures used on both sides can be confusing and hard for those of us without a seminary education and knowledge of Greek to understand, and it can be hard to know who to believe - This is not a 'hot button' issue for me because while I have my opinion, I won't be in a situation where my view will matter. I won't be deciding whether women should be pastors or whatever. - Most complementarians are sincere and believe their view is what the Bible teaches. - I'm wondering if we're making a bigger deal out of this than we should. The first century was different and I wonder if Paul was here, he would look at our society and have a different opinion. - I realize this sounds harsh, but could some of this be a form of virtue signaling for conservatives? It's easy to say we're taking a stand and standing up for the Bible and not letting women lead. I hope that isn't true.

Nancy Rivas
>>167029108

In all seriousness, this is something I do not understand about complementarianism. If someone REALLY believes that GOD says men can’t or shouldn’t learn from women… then why would you (a complementarian man) EVER listen to Kaitlyn about anything? Why would you ever listen to even one episode of this series? I would appreciate if you could help me understand.

Caleb

I'll add my plug for Lucy Peppiatt's work. Especially Women and Worship at Corinth as well as Rediscovering Scripture's Vision for Women. I've long felt uncomfortable in the Complementarian vs Egalitarian nomenclature. Switching to hiearchalist vs mutualist has been super helpful. I've also added the term "interchangeablist" as the perspective that there are no differences between men and women. As a now self-identified mutualist, I like to say that men and women as genders differ not in role or gifting but in perspective and inbodied experience. As in the garden, we need men and women serving side by side in all aspects of the church in order to live as garden people doing the work of the kingdom, mundainly, day by day.

K H
>>167047813

Maybe I should stop doing Bible study with my middle-school-aged son, since I am a woman?

Beth Prather

I'm t7 and raised Aouthern Baptist a d now a Christian church . I do believe that a mam is to be head of the household a d main pr3acher. Still ok with women leading groups. Different churches I have belonged, see it different from leading music too , I could lead a Beth Moore study for women but not men. I know where Paul tells us that in the Bible. But Paul also has a letter where he tells men or women it is better to not marry so they can share the gospel, but if burning with lust to marry. I've looked up why head covering has changed in generations. It made sense. Google and read. Paul's letters are to that specific church at that time but for us. I KNOW 2 or 3 preachers whom honestly taught us in the last few years. CORINTHIANS FOR sure and one stated all 9f them actually in that time had much more problems and different issues than we do today.. Still the Bible is alive and active as a 2edge sword. Praying and hearing from the Holy Spirit while reading a must!

Joanna Vass
>>167066256

On the point of this not being a "hot button" issue for you, I used to feel similarly as an egalitarian woman, who has neither the gift nor the desire to lead. My thinking has changed lately. I think we should frame this issue less in terms of how it hinders individual women from using their gifts, and more in terms of how silencing some members of the body affects the rest of the body. We may not perceive the losses we suffer when women are muzzled, but the truth is we all miss out when the Holy Spirit is unable to speak to all of us through women. Recognizing the stakes will hopefully encourage more of us to speak up for women who are called to lead, rather than leaving them to fight for themselves.

Ben Kucenski
>>166981826

If you know the law and the prophets you would just laugh at anyone who quotes 1 Timothy. It's fraud that contradicts God's laws. When Abraham complained to God about what to do about his wife, God told him to listen to his wife. Childbirth has nothing to do with anything. Just laugh and walk away at such stupidity. The are no laws about women and having babies in the old testament. Jesus didn't say anything. It has no place in the Bible any more than the Gospel of Thomas. Who can understand the insane rantings of a stupid sexist man? Why try? If I wrote a book and claimed it was written by Stephen King, I'd go to prison for fraud. Walk away. Find God's word instead. Jesus did not waste his time trying to explain away every dumb thing the Pharisees were saying. Go back to the scriptures.

Carlos Torres

That moment about 40 minutes in where Kaitlyn said, and I believe this is verbatim, “John Piper can’t think his way out of a paper bag.” Crazy. Love it.

Sara Rob
>>166990826

The problem is there is no scriptural command that forbids women from being pastoral leaders or that biblical marriage contains a power over structure. As Skye pointed out, it is clear that women should not speak in church ("As in all the churches of the saints, the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but are to submit themselves, as the law also says. 1 cor 14) but this clear instruction is not followed in our churches but instead an inconsistent application that is implied by scripture at best, and appear even less implied if you study the original language and culture and acknowledge translation difficulties. The problem with hierarchical complementarianism is those who strive to follow it more consistently end up being more and more patriarchal, because, after all, 1st tim 2 doesn't limit teaching and the either healthy or unhealthy authority (authentein is an extremely rare word that only appears once in the Bible and almost nowhere else, making it impossible to definitively translate) to just the church, and those who want to treat women with dignity as co-heirs become inconsistent. It quickly desolves into debates about when a woman teaches or leads when does she cross the invisible line? Is it okay because she didn't teach the Bible? Was it okay because she taught informally instead of formally? Because the male she taught was 14 and not 18? Because she doesn't have the title of senior pastor? Is she managing the home or is she now leading it? Should she stop making sure everything around the house gets done so she is no longer overbearing and he perform his role as leader? Is her pointing out husband's error iron sharpening iron or is it disrespect? Is a woman allowed to have standards and boundaries or is that being unsubmissive and disobeying God? It is exhausting to live as a woman wondering when the good thing you are doing will be labeled a bad thing because you are a woman doing it. And I don't think hierarchical complementarians get this. Good trees are supposed to produce good fruit, but what hierarchical complementarianism has produced in my experience is exhausted women and either entitled men or men who feel shame because leadership is not their spiritual gift.

Kyle Adcox

Complementarians be damned! I will not be trained by a preacher to be like O.J. SIMPSON or IKE TURNER for all the wrong reasons. Jesus isn't either a Wife Beater or a Sex Offender! Jesus Christ would NOT abuse or misuse His authority to exercise inappropriate power and control over his wife! Jesus Christ would NOT utilize manipulation or intimidation tactics against His wife! Why would The Men of America think we can get away with that? Tell me!

Gwen Schmeidel

Looking for a little help here locating the episode (referred at the 21:28 mark) featuring Nijay Gupta talking about the First Timothy passage. Any assistance would be appreciated.