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718 - The View feat. Norman Finkelstein (3/28/23) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-03-28 18:47:52
Imported:
2026-06

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Content

We’re joined by author and scholar Norman Finkelstein to discuss his new book “I’ll Burn That Bridge When I Get To It,” as well as a candid discussion of the political situation in Israel, the modern left, Obama’s legacy, and our old friend Alan Dershowitz.

Find “I’ll Burn That Bridge When I Get To It” here: https://itascabooks.com/products/ill-burn-that-bridge-when-i-get-to-it-heretical-thoughts-on-identity-politics-cancel-culture-and-academic-freedom

Files

Comments

Joe

First

Chris

Everyone below this comment is as gay as me

CJ

I’m as gay as the last guy

Scott Dempsey

Lol at the quick pivot away from Putin apologia

Post Void

I don't agree with his conclusions, but I do agree with what he is pointing out. Ethnic states are bad.

Post Void

Uh, Ethnic States are Bad.

Post Void

Why is he polictally jumping around so hard? I smell toast! [Will, great following btw]

caroline

always stressful to listen to, i love it!

Mark Schneider

I always enjoy listening to Norm, he is the ultimate no BS guy, calls it like it is!! & I love that he contradicts the Chapo narrative viz the Neocons' war of choice stirred up in the Slavic lands. We can always learn, & I learn something every time I listen to Norm-- grateful he would follow the political scams of "The View" since I could never go there!!

vermouth

i love this guy so much hes the goat contrarian

Post Void

Can I say it? Birthright trips?

Chanel Bell

Norman going in on Kennedy was a bit unexpected lol but fucking hilarious and spot on

Poppy Chulo

Just a wild guess but I don't think the Ukrainians want to be part of Russias buffer zone.

Pedro Lippe

Matt called the fuck out lmao

Post Void

At times like these, I miss Howard Zinn

Eric Adams (German)

Assuming Putin declared war out of an abundance of caution. He has undoubtedly made the tragedy he sought to avoid happen sooner rather than later. Putin has damaged his people by making such a terrible blunder. But then again, I don’t believe in authoritarians, be they corporations, presidents, or dictators. Russian freedom was lost in the events around the dissolution of the USSR, not kept alive by some alpha strong-man.

Reuben Simpson

Thought Doug Levinson made a Chapo appearance for a sec

Ben Zaretsky

Hassenfuss! This guy is epic. Which chapo are we voting off the island to make room?

stop watcherman

I’m not gonna say what race finklestein is..finklestein is Jewish

Matthew Dunn

Fourth mic is for Rod Dreher. Norm can be 5th.

Eric Adams (German)

Doesn't he use Ethnic statist arguments to defend Russia? I also agree Ethnic states are wrong. He either confuses real politics for morality or doesn't distinguish (in defense of Russia).

chetan kadodwala

Dude stop reading/watching US media, your view of the situation is myopic at best.

Matthew Dunn

Right like no quips or anything? I feel like his vibes are the same

Eric Adams (German)

Ah, yes, Putin, The light of the revolution. I don't know where you got that impression of my politics, but you don't care much. What do you mean to say? That my values are pro-US / Capitalism? Am I incorrect in my assessment of the situation in Ukraine? Is my take on Russian politics misguided? How exactly? How do you feel about transitioning from the USSR to the Russian Federation? I can tell you this. Things got worse.

Bloberis SH

Please add a Finkelstein "Stupid Fuck" button right next to the Wolff "Bullshit" button on the soundboard

Major bit me

Didn’t think I’d read the book but now I think I will

Private

“Yugoslavia resolved itself…”

Greg Coyle

Norm missing felix’s sarcasm at the start was extremely hard to listen to

Salt M. Bank

“ The key fact with obama whereas people talk about being half black, in fact the key to understanding obama is he is half gay”

Michael Landreth

Things got worse in Russia because things have gotten worse everywhere. Growth is in decline, profits are overextended everywhere. Except maybe China. Anyway, I don’t agree with anyone who views Putin as some kind of counter to Western capitalism, but I also don’t agree that Putin has either created or sped up Russian decline. Putin is reacting to the historical situation, as all notable political actors do. It would be the same either way, and minus the deaths that occurred in its wake, I don’t see how being a Russian buffer between the west meaningfully impacts the daily life of the average Ukranian either way. Putin is the symptom, not the cause.

B2B Commuter

Lmao at will’s okay as norm was flirting with going full Imus on Whoopi.

T

"Where's Virgil?" -Norman Finklestein

Nick Perri

Lol at Felix trying to joke around with “no nonsense” Norm

SwagMasta420

Russian Federation is famously not an ethnic state nor has made statements and language laws aspiring to become one, unlike certain other former SSRs like... Ukraine.

T

I'm gayer because I'm on the bottom.

SwagMasta420

Just a wild guess that there isn't a monolithic Ukranian to speak on behalf of. People living in Ukraine can't even agree to be Ukrainian which is why 2014 happened.

SwagMasta420

Considering your use of "authoritarian" your politics are deluding yourself to think you're on the left when in reality your politics are identical to anyone who watches CNN.

loafman

ooof Felix bricked out the gate

Charlie Moe

It wasn’t supposed ever be myopic, everyone thought it was going to last 72 hours

Sam

while I understand and agree that identity politics in this country are used to derail the class based action the left of this country tries to mobilize, some of his comments still do come off,,, slightly racist? I don't know how to explain this but do we really think a colorblind approach will solve all of our issues? I will try to get my hands on the book and understand where he is coming from better, and I really do not want anyone here getting mad at me (cuz yall are unnecessarily mean and dumb on these comments sometimes), but I geniunely found it weird.

Paul

Shut up nerd

Methew

Id rather be a buffer zone than a staging ground for a theatre of WW3

Methew

But that’s just me

Sam

id-pol exist on the right too, and has more structural basis to it that effects people negatively, so how is it weird that people take defensive position on it on the left?

Ian H

I mean, I've listened to a number of interviews with Prof. Finkelstein and almost no-one has the courage to attempt sarcasm with that prickly old literalist.

Sam

Like, I don't think it should be the end all be all of politics but this feels too rejecting of actual good analysis people have on culture.

Sam

you literally listen to podcasts @Paul Caravello

Chris T

I mean he’s wrong about black people not having their own language insofar as like language being a key part of identity and that the English he used in the interview wouldn’t exist without black Americans, but other than that I think he’s spot on. I’m so sick of woke culture. It’s often just a convenient way to not talk about something. “Oh this is problematic,” aka let’s put this person or thing in a corner and not examine any of what’s actually going on.

Eric Adams (German)

Yes, Putin made a miscalculation. You think I thought he wanted a king war?

Eric Adams (German)

I include all American presidents in that statement. How is that CNN?

Shane

His voice will always make me think of the surrogate in Arrested Development

Brody Knaak

That take on the Russian invasion of Ukraine was trash. Russia doesn't seriously fear NATO is going to invade in the era of 4500 ICBM nukes. They just want the land and thought they could finish what they started in 2014. Change a few thousand votes in key states in 2020, and they probably would have been right about the world not stopping them

Eric Adams (German)

That’s a very reasonable take. I agree with most of it. I don’t have the insane liberal take that Putin is some independent actor. I only disagree with the idea that Ukraine must be a buffer state for Russia. I understand why Putin did what he did, (even if he miscalculated). We’ve had missiles close to Moscow for some time in Submarines. When has the west invaded a nuclear state? I don’t think they can. Also they knew Sadam didn’t have nukes.

Robert Armstrong

Dude seems to be old-school class reductionist, but I don’t think he’d disagree at all with actual race critique or disavow systemic racism. I think he’s got an issue with a liberal sense of performative blackness (or ID of any kind,) regardless of whether the points raised are correct, used in support and benefitting from the largesse of neoliberal capital.

Quém é

jfc the Fink has fallen far. i remember when he could give talks that weren't a funnel converging on talking about himself

Matthew Dunn

Yeah, I’m sure Felix has a ton of respect for him and he just decided to let him talk as much as he wanted after that

Frank

Who enjoyed this one? Must say my heart sinks when I realize a new episode is one of those monological ones (Wolf, Finkelstein, Zizek), and not the dry boys chewing the fat with a venerable opinion-maker.

Jay Bee Jay

GREAT call just letting Norman riff. A true legend. That calamity during the phone ringing was funny, thanks for leaving it in. Fantastic show, fellas.

William

You’re fucking stupid

Paul F. Holzfäller

Norman’s out to make “Nordic” the new n-word. I’m weirdly here for it.

Matthew Dunn

I read his book, some was fantastic and some was less interesting, but overall a very good book. He mentioned his conflict with Amy Goodman more in the book (he doesn’t mention her by name but you can infer that it is her). Sad to see how corporate identity politics divide the left. I thought back to how when Bernie was first running in 2015-16, he had one of his rallies interrupted by radical BLM activists. If there’s ever a hope of a left wing future we need to find out what we have in common with people rather than what divides us.

Eric Adams (German)

People here seriously think WW2 would be a ground war if there were nukes? What an odd comparison. Also, might just be me, but thinking NATO is Hitler is a sign your brain is mush. Touch grass, and look up North Korea, they have no buffer state.

William

Yeah, making the tragedy happen sooner, but more on his terms was kind of the point, right? That’s literally the decision rule here; is action worse or better than inaction. How could he keep face with the DPR and LPR if he just stood by while the Nazis shelled the shit out of them? As it turns out, the move has been better for Russia than it has for Europe and or the US

Tim Mullen

An episode of Norman and Matt in “beer and sausage German” mode talking about The Reconstruction era would tip a hole in space time

Major bit me

Like Hitler in his time, no one comes close to piling up as many bodies in the 21st century than the NATO states. Not such a dumb comparison bearing that in mind

Paul F. Holzfäller

Yeah I’m definitely not for any of Norman’s “look what we made Putin do” crap.

Eric Adams (German)

Interesting. Who launches an invasion of a nuclear power? Also, you’ll notice Zelensky’s political campaign didn’t involve bombing Warsaw.

oats

My man was cookin

Eric Adams (German)

America’s doing the heavy lifting there. But yeh, Russia’s invasion of Chechnya comes to mind

Eric Adams (German)

And again Russia has nukes, something no one has addressed. They’re not getting invaded

Ian H

"All of these professors deserve spittle" "They're all so contemptable, these bootlickers, these lickspittles, the groveling sacks of shit"

Major bit me

100% USA would fire off the nukes if they think they could hit Russia harder than they’d get hit, and global political economic conditions were so bad that it was deemed necessary to break them up into bits. We know this because it was seriously considered multiple times throughout the Cold War, now take Cold War mentality + 30s style economic crisis and it’s not so crazy.

Major bit me

But USA and USSR both seriously thought they’d get nuked during USSR’s entire existence, it came close on both sides multiple times. But that was before history ended ig

Eric Adams (German)

Agreed they would if they could. But they can’t. I agree the will’s there, but no means of pulling it off. Again, North Korea has a small arsenal, and yet America can’t budge them.

Peter Fishbeast

This was so great, he’s still got it, I was worried he might have become a little reactionary but it doesn’t seem it at all

Eric Adams (German)

Also. To be clear. The undemocratic sale of Russian state industries to oligarchs ended any chance for a regime better than Putin. That doesn’t mean his regime gets a blank check, or that it’s somehow more representative of the people

Major bit me

I guarantee that USA’s top scientists are on the case trying to figure out how to pull it off, if they haven’t figured out how to do it already, same with Russia’s. History hasn’t ended, and all these countries’s systems necessitate perpetual expansion and absorption/crushing of the enemy camps. So they all operate on a “it’s only a matter of time” mentality, and they are probably right

Dyyyyylan

I love him. The new book might have the worst cover that I’ve ever seen.

james

Wait, what did he say about the Holocaust???

William

At this point you just seem completely out of your depth. Haven’t you read anything about the generals at the top of the chain in the 50s? MacArthur wanting to put down a cesium ceasefire line between north and South Korea with 30 a bombs? Do you know what level of insanity the American brass had, thinking they could win a nuclear exchange? Do you not remember all the articles claiming that we should call Putin’s bluff on the use of nukes? The people are and have always been stupid enough to do it. It’s a mistake to think already deranged people will continue to follow “logic”

Eric Adams (German)

Agreed, I guess my I have slightly different understanding of the world. I despise both the US and Russia’s current governments, but I do think the American system is slightly more susceptible to positive change (Russia also backs dictators etc). I think we should oppose invasions, and Putin isn’t stopping a genocide anymore than what people claim is “White Genocide”.

Zakir KH

Man as a motherfucker who never said anything in conferences, I feel for Felix.

K H

Norm chews all by himself. He has the weirdest energy of any guest speaker of any program he is on. A great personality and mind. Always glad to hear him.

Eric Adams (German)

Agreed, I am afraid the US will do something like that, but McArthur was stopped (not out of the kindness or others). Do you even know when China and North Korea got nukes? That might help you understand our actions. Jesus, calling me out of my depth when you’re comparing a country before they had nukes to one that does now.

balbert

"Well why doesn't he write his book in ebonics then??" is like almost verbatim some of the stuff I would hear shitty rich white edgelord teenagers say when I worked in schools

K H

Radical?

Eric Adams (German)

I agree Putin shouldn’t have been put into a corner, I also think his country isn’t at Rick of attack. I also think he’s the worse of two evils, not that your type understands the concept.

William

CIA chief bill burns in 2008, in memo to state dept and NATO, “oh yeah, everyone thinks that if we keep pursuing NATO membership for Ukraine, it may cause a civil war that Russia will feel the need to intervene in” Huh. Funny how the thing they said would happen, did happen. At this point, who do I believe? Some random dipshit or Johnny M, the leading geopolitical scholar of the moment who’s called this from six years out

Jack Ross

Nah that’s actually not correct at all. Western policy towards Russia more or less laid a direct route to this very situation. Once the US lost its direct control over Russia via Yeltsin we were directly on this path once again.

Jack Ross

I don’t really think it was “justifying” Russian imperialism as much as it was giving context for a integral aspect of the Russian mindscape which the west has absolutely not taken into account since the fall of the Soviet Union whatsoever.

Angus McLean

To unironically say “We’re better than everyone else. We are.” so matter of factly as a justification for torture is pretty insane. She really believed it too.

Jack Ross

Is your brain really that smooth? He’s clearly painting the Russian perspective here, not justifying it. He’s saying that a huge European military alliance encircling Russia would (justifiably) cause them to react with force. And it did.

Jack Ross

*talks the entire time allowing no one else to say anything* “Wow you pussies should speak up more” *hangs up* Chad walks away

Eric Adams (German)

Yes, it’s predictable. I disagree with justifiably. Are the self protecting actions of the bourgeoisie “justified”, no. Just because it’s understandable doesn’t make it justified

K H

I think the prospect of nuclear attack will be considered for China(and perhaps Russia by extension) if economic conditions precipitate it. However I think business interests would probably thwart that. As the U.S. becomes more geriatric and incompetent I think it gets harder to predict if the interests of business will be effectively carried out by the state. My guess would be that the U.S. slowly transforms into an agrarian version of Russia and China takes our place.

Eric Adams (German)

I disagree with the characterization of the Ukrainian government as installed by the US. Could you point to something that would better support that so I could see your perspective?

Daniel Montoya

Lol I didn’t even know Felix and Matt were on the call until he called it out 😂

William

This has been pretty good - normally I’d agree with you but for some people who exist from a different age, sometimes it’s good to just listen and soak in their viewpoint. What some Chapo listeners don’t understand is that you can think critically an what he says and try to see if you can understand what he says and why he says it

Helga

Great episode!!!

Good brain haver

This is right up there in absolute Gold Tier Chapo, right next to letting blagovich spend an hour taking about how badly he was wronged. Yes fellas, tell me more!

Good brain haver

And since they're 'not monolithic,' then it's probably best to just let them get invaded. Oops, I mean liberated.

Doug Cartel

For real though when we see burning Leopard 2s with Ukrainian Wolfsangeln and swastikas on it, german news will pan over it and ignore it just like they did the last 500 times a swastika accidentally got in the frame

Clammy_Damp

Did you miss the content?

Gregory Dodds

“Maybe you’re technical” What a legend.

Marcus

First Wolff, now Finkelstein. Who said Chapo fell off?

Of course

This is in incredible. So, if you're going to put on a DSA-cancelled leftwinger with a part-memoir out, why not Adolph Reed Jr?

Ozzie

This guy went to the same high school as Andrew Dice Clay

Paul

The fact that he even uses the word "ebonics" kinda shows he stepped out of his lane on that bit.

james

I love when an old timer makes them talk about race lol

Aaron Baer

Brave of you to start your own wildly successful podcast and commit to it for years to bring a consistent quality product for your loyal hogs to wallow in ... Oh you didn't, did you ... EAT A RICHARD YOU DICK

DP

Norm’s audio levels so off he’s screaming and whispering in my ear. The. The landline rings…

Comedy News

What a fantastic title for a book. Amazing, he is the best

james

I’m hearing that Matt refused to talk to Norman and almost walked out

Dick Van Sexel

Whoopie may not but be perfect, but she did give us sister act. The view can never take that away

Conner

Grassroots movement of a bunch of fascists

Axel H.

Explanation =\= justification

Doug Cartel

I like to call him jeffy tooby

Smalls

He is a bit with trans issues. But he’s also an old ass man.

Owen69

Kendi used the word Ebonics in his book

Logan

Try developing comprehension skills and a basic historical awareness

Dan

Chapo is back baby!

Logan

🤤

Stephen David Miller

I know I am basically going to get eaten alive in this comments section, and I have plenty of problems with the weaponization of identity politics, but I so disagree with Norm’s take on Ibram X Kendi and his book. Feels like a misguidedly literal read which, if applied to say a Malcolm X or James Baldwin or, hell, Spike Lee, would yield similarly dismissive remarks. (“He genuinely believes they are devils?! Like with horns? What a comic book!”). His takeaway that the book is saying Black people are perfect, or have entirely different thought processes, an entirely different language incomprehensible to white people, etc — that is simply not how Kendi’s book actually reads to anyone coming at it from good faith. I’m sure he can find quotes about Black culture and a desire to celebrate /recontextualize differences and use them to bolster his argument, but to me it’s the equivalent of him missing Felix’s sarcasm early in the episode. Guy is brilliant in many ways (I loved his riff on Russia/Ukraine as it relates to Israel/Palestine) but his rigidity does not lend itself to cultural criticism.

Fish Priest

LOL Norman had the audacity to bitch about Matt and Felix not talking, how the fuck does anyone get in a word edgewise with him? He rambled and ranted non stop the whole time.

Logan

Erik 🤤

Sam

You sound like you get your positions on fopo where the other chapos do - the soy and FAILING NYT

Michael Landreth

If the other evil is western capitalism, then no, Putin is not worse. Putin is the (horrific) symptom, not the cause.

Poppy Chulo

There's enough of a "monolith" to turn a two week invasion into a year-long protracted bloodbath with tens of thousands of dead Russians.

Logan

🤤 🤤 🤤

Dongo

I’m struck in all his interviews how detailed and uncompromising and yet totally without airs and seeking actively to make you understand something .. he is. He must make a truly brilliant professor to learn from

Alex James

Please cut the bullshit and defend Kendi's claim that WEB Du Bois and Frederick Douglass are racists

Stephen David Miller

I don’t remember that quote in the book, because it’s not remotely the main point of the book. I assume it was wrong!

Logan

🤤 "goo goo mah mah ooo eee"

Daniel Hepburn

Finklestein is a genuine, babbling moron.

Michael Landreth

Probably not actual psy-ops, but at least the product of government psy-op efforts. Which is not to say they (or BLM) is radical. In fact the opposite—BLM has devolved from radical to mainstream. But it is to say that the move from BLM’s radical, anti-capitalist initial stance to its current mainstream Democratic Party affiliation is representative of the way that the party subsumes all meaningful leftist movements under its centrist umbrella. Id-pol in its most natural state is anti-capitalist. The rejection of all aspects of id-pol is symbolic of the left’s failure to bring natural allies into the fold because certain aspects of the movement are naturally folded into systemic maintenance.

Daniel Hepburn

Indeed. Not sure who thought this was a good idea.

Gulb

Felix trying to joke with Finkelstein is priceless.

Daniel Hepburn

The whole interview was basically a strong treatise on dementia

Daniel Hepburn

Well, see, calling it an explanation is kinda a justification

Daniel Hepburn

No fucking kidding. It was shockly facile and illogical. Guesa how many fucking Ukrainians and Belarussians died from 1900 to 1950, Fuckelstein!

Jeffrey Miller

Hearing from whom? You're gonna have to provide some context there.

Jeffrey Miller

I haven't even finished the episode because of that. I respect him and I like a lot of what I've read from him, but man those kinds of interviews are so hard to get through for me.

Daniel Hepburn

Wild guess, but I'm pretty fucking sure that Ulrainians are pretty united about not getting killed and sending Putin's mercenary army back to Russia in bodybags

Jeffrey Miller

You could hear that joke thud a mile away.

K H

Mossad agents have entered the chat.

Danny

#stopcopcity x chapo when

Jeffrey Miller

I think I could die a happy man if the boys had Rod on as a guest after he's had a couple drinks.

T

They recorded an episode with him a couple of years ago but didn't release it. Amber said that he told a joke that was hilarious but too based. I assume it was libel or a death threat or something, and that's why they couldn't release the episode.

K H

I mean...if you read the book and it in fact says that...seems odd to not recall. What then was the point of the book? I actually really enjoy Norm's cultural critiques. He argues from an unusual and imo interesting perspective or explains shifts in culture we are ignorant to(the stigma of surviving the Holocaust, the view of Israel by post WW2 Jewish people in America), if it's rigidity then it's the fixed frame that allows for the contextualization that makes him unique.

K H

Norm desperately needs his own show. He could easily do a years worth of podding in one day, maybe one afternoon.

K H

Did you also tell a single joke which immediately confused your guest of honor?

K H

Maybe. Maybe just extremely annoying confused people. Hard to tell. Far from radical.

G

unenthusiastic “shoot” best part of the ep

K H

Bro w0t?

MC Prescott

At this point cushvlogs are the only way we’ll ever hear Matt talk

Jeffrey Miller

Some people can have great ideas and be great at communicating them in writing but be awful interview subjects. I'm not asking for cable news sized sound bites, but you gotta be able to answer questions concisely and before half the listeners forget what the question was in the first place.

K H

>:(

Jeffrey Miller

I think if I were someone that regularly got asked to do interviews I'd at least spend a little money so I didn't have to use the fucking laptop's onboard mic.

K U

To correct Finklestein, the Russians didn't lose about 30 million people, it was the Soviet Union. This included all Soviet states, like Ukraine and Kazakhstan. 3 million of the 6 million Jews that died in the Holocaust were Soviets. Finkelstein's point about the centrality of Jewish death in WW2 over the 27 million Soviets that died is well-founded. He's wrong about Stalin being totally shocked by Hitler's invasion, that's a historical meme, but it doesn't comport with the facts. He had the biggest army in the world waiting for Hitler right up on that border, it's just that they were encircled and destroyed because Soviet military doctrine was all wrong for a defensive war. The irony of Stalin killing his "top" generals before the war is that the guys he had killed had their plans ripped off by their replacements, but those plans were terrible. I could say more, but we're going off topic.

K H

Ask him to go on Cumtown for a final episode. Actually no. Let him go bully Adam on his own show.

Jeffrey Miller

I dunno, giving us another thousand words would fit in with the theme of this episode.

Ian Fletcher

why tf did i listen to this boomer for an entire hour?

Degrassi Knoll

You hear that noise? Classic response: yes your phone is ringing

K H

Oh if you were a 3000 year old man with a landline that probably still looks at microfiche you'd make time to still be an annoying "uhh can you guys fix the popping in your audio" guy? What makes you think people constantly invite him to podcast? He is generally persona non grata. He is basically if Felix had to grow up without access to the internet for 55 years. From the comments you can see many people don't like or are confused by what he's saying. You idiot. You stupid fucking idiot. You god damn stupid fucking idiot.

K H

He belongs on Adam Friedland show for more funniest Adam Friedland cumpilations.

K H

Lmfao

Luke Rybuck

Was about to say the same. When he mentioned the first time he hadn’t heard anything from Felix or Matt the first time I was hoping for a “and whose fault is that?”.

K H

Yea. I wanted to hear where he was going exactly.

Stephen David Miller

So one reason it wouldn’t be particularly memorable from my read in 2019, and the reason I think Norm’s take on the book is misguided, is Kendi’s entire premise is that to label a person as “racist” or “antiracist” as if it were some permanent quality or description of their inner morality is a waste of time. That what matters are policies and outcomes, especially economic outcomes — and he wants to redefine the language to focus on that, defang it as some innate critique. The vast majority of the book is him talking from his own life about how this way of thinking has shifted him (among other things) into rejecting a lot of bullshit baked into America, including (for many chapters, explicitly) capitalism. If he did have some tossed off section using the word “racist” as he described important thinkers like Du Bois, it would be in the same way he uses the word to describe a hundred political stances he himself has held and has since changed his views on. As an example, he would 100% argue that voting for Biden in a primary is the more “racist” action in that it’s actively rejecting a politics (Bernie) that would have helped oppressed people, ie had an antiracist outcome. What drives me nuts is that Leftists who have never read the book see him as the epitome of the “do penance for my inner thought life” identity politics (thanks to cringey followers of his who I assume assume never read the book). But most of their criticisms are things be explicitly agrees with!

K H

Sorry Tommy boy. Suit up...or don't ☺

K H

Norman "LET ME FINISH!" Finklestein. We love him folks. Please let us donate to get him on Adam Friedland show. Please.

Luke Rybuck

Look I’m all for having sympathies for the Russian people as Finklestein urged but it doesn’t change the brute fact that Putin’s war is fundamentally imperialist. Those saying he was forced into doing are not honestly evaluating the devolvement of any remaining respect for Russia on the world stage and what that entails for the treatment they will receive in the future. An entire annexation of Ukraine would not improve Russia’s security, it would jeopardize it for many years.

Jeffrey Miller

Watch out, the one man Norm Finkelstein honor protector will get you.

Dan

come on man, just get Mearsheimer on the phone already. I'd love to hear about how he, Noam and Noam differed over the Isreal lobby and the pro Nato nerds go on about imperialism. Oh and why he's a Bernie bro

J. A.

Really? I thought he was a 6 4 black man

Will

Great solo cast from the new 4th mic.

Zach Pierce

HASSENFUSS - lol I’m dead

Austin Jacobs

When Will speaks at 1.5x speed he sounds like Ben Shapiro

Zach Pierce

“Judaism is a RELIGION not a RACE”… consider Madonna circa 2003

Christopher Nagle

No you’re right, this guys take on Kendi’s quite nuanced philosophy of anti-racism and it’s evolution over the course of the American project was straight cartoonish lol. I have no idea how you could read Stamped from the Beginning (2016) and come away with such an energetically frivolous mischaracterization.

Arrick

N O R D I C

owen

I am the gayest in perpetuity

Greg

Get Rosie O'Donnell on the show!!!

Hick Rhodes

Imagining a utopia of 3 episodes a week all about some 17th century guy named Georg Johann. Let us retreat into the distant past.

Friendly_platypus920

Absolute braindead take on Ukraine. Guess what, missiles have been on Russia's border for 50 years. This guy is trying to relive the cold war and WWII the same way Putin and all of the moronic US policy wonks are. The world will be better off when that whole generation dies out.

Friendly_platypus920

The guy is creaming his boomer pants for an upgrade to Stalin. I swear, if these people were born in the USSR they'd be Kissinger stans

Mauve_Avenger

I've never read Kendi, but as you point out his reputation precedes him on account of his fans (who definitely don't seem anti-capitalist). My impression was that he was a "racism allows capitalist exploitation to exist" kind of person and not "capitalism will use race and any/all social divisions in the service of exploitation". The former seems like basic liberalism to me

B2B Commuter

Him just listing off black people that he feels were paid to slander Bernie sounds like the most crank loser shit imaginable. Of course identity politics was deployed cynically, but god damn if he doesn’t sound like my father in law complaining about woke corporations.

Eli

I know it must have been difficult to get a word in but I think Norm has a point, Matt and Felix should talk more in interviews generally

Faib Dao

You’re right lol! I think 1.3x is just about perfect for a Norm ep.

Gabe G

What an incredible episode. Finkelstein is absolutely fantastic.

Joey Fazzoli

The way Felix is totally unable to make any guest on the show laugh is so hot

Drew McGill

You nailed him to the T here. Been listening to him for a long time and this is a great summation of his political philosophy.

Stephen David Miller

So I can only speak to “How To Be An Antiracist”, which I read a few months before it became a massive normie lib signifier. In it, at about the halfway point, he describes capitalism and racism as “conjoined twins” at the heart of the American project, propping up one another, two inextricable evils — and continues with that premise for the rest of the book. I was already a Chapo listener at the time, and while his analysis wasn’t quite Marxist (I believe he lumped Warren in with Sanders as people who could potentially redefine the capitalist system into something less evil — cringe to a listener of this show) it certainly struck me as much more radical than your basic liberal argument. To the point that I’ve had to assume the majority of Dems who drape themselves in his work have not read it. Or that he’s sold out his image intentionally and watered that shit down — but this is The Book Everyone Pretended To Read, not some obscure thing he wrote a decade ago.

joao z

oh, round two, surely!!!

Leyland

Obama origin story Jumping Jack Flash

joao z

he does require and appreciate resistance (interruption), i've noticed from other interviews.

Mark

So mad at you right now for making me respect Rosie or think that show ever did anything useful. Great video. Thanks for sharing. ✌️

J P 3

The Chapo crew should invite Finkelstein and Douglas Levison (aka Trumpet Guy) to perform on its New Year's Eve Extravaganza episode.

Gage

That's... not true at all. The US, quite literally, forced the invasion. None of this would have been necessary if the US didn't insist on sitting on their border and creeping closer over the last thirty years.

Gage

His writing is digestable and cool, but Norm is the most awful, autistic motherfucker to listen to, and age hasn't helped.

amit singh

Your views are facile and meretricious. Conflating and comparing the percolations of geo-political forces acting and reacting over time to the whims of an individual actors makes your point spurious. You would gain more insight seeing this as a fully automated self-contained model acting and reacting with its many constituents over time. There is no “they/them” or “we/us”. Sadly there is no pronoun that works for “all/everything”. We are at the same time the invaders and the invaded. Don’t you listen to cushvlog? Jesus!

amit singh

“What”…Exactly, my sentiment. Dude, there are a shit ton of dynamics at play. The entire fucking gambit encapsulating everything that exists between the spiritual and the material. —and over time. It’s reductive and counterproductive to elevate one side over the other.

dabbledogg

Finklestrin has rhe longest anzwers in the game. No doubt about it

Adam Foster

I agree with a lot of what Finklestein says about Russia, though I think you could equally apply that to the Ukrainian people who were exterminated in equal measure. The Ukrainians also have a history of invasion and I think you can talk as much as you like about Russia's proposed peace plans like Minsk II, but these are rarely proposed in good faith. I'm sure Putin is informed by his childhood, but so are the Ukrainians who are his age while many young Russians who no longer see a future for their country under Putin have left and want him gone as much as the West. I think it is true that many of these Europeans are acting without thought, but now that the war is here I see no reason to deny Ukraine the right to defend against an imperialist expansion that I'm sure reminds them of WWII

Christopher Price

Man, these comments are a drag, just absolute disrespect for the past and anyone who's lived through it.

D.O.D

You nailed it, his critique was pathetic

Sheila Mydick

I received this more positively than many folks did. I read part of that Kendi book on loan from a friend but put it aside before finishing b/c it was a lot of him talking about his life story which I found uninspired as I was already quite busy. Is there a good defense of the text generally or an explanation of Kendi’s arg that Douglas/Dubois were worse than Truman/Kanye claim? The Goldberg/Obama analogy made sense to me, as did the commentary on Israel. The Ukraine stuff resonated in as much as it explained a facet of Russian psychology that I don’t consider. I didn’t read him so much as a Putin apologist here - his points on historical memory are salient in my experience. I also liked him b/c I never knew my grandparents so whenever a boomer goes off about anything from their lives in good faith I’m inclined to listen.

Stellar manatee

::listens to Norm's audio:: ::checks run time:: ::opens audible instead::

JV

was gonna say i had to look up how old he is, cos he sounds more 99 here than 69

JV

If you're wondering one small way you could help I recommend everyone check out the Gaza Mutual Aid Fund here on Patreon. You can sub to them easily just like you do to a podcast and100% of that money goes direct to individual funds to help people in need on the ground in Gaza. Helps out with things like food, clothing, medical bills and rebuilding homes destroyed by the regular Israeli assaults.

Jack Ross

Yeah absolute miss was hilarious

Jack Ross

Yeah they should prep questions for the guests

Peacock Jive

Western "leftists" were anti nazi until it came to ukraine

Peacock Jive

Supporting ukraine = supporting fascism.

Jack Ross

Really hope they do the Spanish civil war series

Jack Ross

I am happily that man

Peacock Jive

The amount of completely unthinking, fascist, pro nato, and pro ukraine people in the chapo audience is embarrassing.

Pepipopa

You should make a few more comments you look like the big brain guy in the comments

Jonathan Szerszen

Norm is 1 million percent right on Russia and Ukraine and of course Will pivots the entire conversation away immediately. How about you have on even just trueanon to talk about? They even know what the neo-nazi and right sector in that country have been up to the moment the boot came off their neck in the 90s. Anyone in this audience who thinks Ukraine is in the right needs to just do a cursory history search on the coup of 2014, the azov battalion, their collective worship on the scum that is stephan bandara, and the Civil war that has been taking place in the dombass since 2014. Russia finally decided to draw a line to American Empire and its pathetic that half of chapos audience can't see this conflict for what it is. And some of the blame falls on chapo for not having on guests that challenge the western narrative. An episode with colonel Douglas McGregor would shut me up on it forever

Peacock Jive

You're so freaking hinged mmmm I bet your doors open in a beautifully smooth, hinged motion. Hhuunnggh bout to nut thinkin bout them big smooth hinges.

Tan Tan

I don’t give a fuck what anyone says, I’ve loved Finkelstein since he was on Trueanon and am very happy you guys had him on. Excited to read his new book!

Sean McL

Yeah I tuned out when he talked about how “NATO” had surrounded Russia effectively leaving them no option but to invade. This just doesn’t ring true to me whatsoever. The pre-war status quo - with Russian occupied Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea - would have resulted in Ukraine never joining NATO (it literally couldn’t, without territorial integrity) and would have left Finland and Sweden with no reason or desire to do so either. Additionally the EU itself was becoming softer and more economically tied to Russia through the enormous quantities of oil/gas that it imported (and the even more enormous quantities it wanted to thru NS2). Overall the EU was happy enough with this status quo, and unless we are implying that Joe Biden secretly texted the Russian generals instructing them to invade and that Putin went along with it out of embarrassment idk why we are implying anything more nefarious than: Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin wanted to. I think their edgy Ukraine takes are overly simplistic, ill-informed and they keep turning out to be wrong.

snapplepeachtea

i didnt know what norman finkelstein looked like so i was imagining noam chomsky just based on the voice lmao

drewb

Mr Finkelstein, your campaign seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train

A RQ

Really though- I get Felix staying quiet to not embarrass himself with his weak riffs, but why does Matt *never* talk during interviews? A combo of “can’t be bothered” with an attempt to recoup mana for his next Cushvlog?

James Blackmon

I like that Norman Finkelstein is like "why is no one talking?"

Isaac Jones

I genuinely think he's just listening

Walking Bones

Well it's a good thing there's a war now to justify that kind of participation, please don't think about the conditions that led to the war though, or who ultimately profits from it.

g$

norm didn’t say the n word enough

Walking Bones

It's not overly simplistic or ill-informed to believe the invasion of Ukraine was a matter of the whims of one person though lmao. How can you honestly say Ukraine couldn't be in NATO? Theyve been literally planning to do it since like 2008. Historically, the only country not allowed in NATO was Russia, the eternal Boogeyman.

Ed Carney

Matt isn't an interviewer. It's good that Will does the interviews.

Rob

I really don't understand the Russia apologia. I get the descriptive angle of how Russia views itself and its situation, but people like Finkelstein and Mearsheimer always give the descriptive claim and sneak in that they ought to be expansionist, which is an entirely different question. And curiously (or not so) never bring up how Ukraine feels about the situation.

Walking Bones

Love hearing from Dr Finkelstein, perfectly sane and salient on the point of Israeli far-right politics, as always. Also amazing to hear him tear into repugnant neolib intellectuals, get him back soon 💜

runkelars 419

I wouldn't consider the realist approach to international relations as "apologist".

Sean McL

One person who dictates a states policy and whose opponents regularly zip themselves inside suitcases and throw themselves outside windows? I’m sure he’s got allies and enablers, but it’s far less fanciful to suggest that the Putin inner circle had designs on Ukraine for a decade at least than to strip him of agency and say “NATO made him do it”. And Ukraine absolutely *could* have been part of NATO with their internationally recognised borders (inc Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk) pre-2014 … but as soon as Russia invaded and annexed that’s off the table unless they’re going to cede that territory. Because NATO have a mutual defence pact, and Ukraine joining NATO now would effectively mean would now be obliged to defend Ukraine a bit more directly than just throwing a few Warsaw-pact MiGs and artillery pieces their way (ie we would be at war with them).

Sean McL

You are doing the Republican thing CTH have made fun of for years - you are inventing a scenario in your head purely to get mad at it. Get a fucking grip man

B

This episode was unlistenable drivel and Russia apologia. Ron Paul wants his shtick back

Doug Cartel

I literally see ukrainian tanks with iron crosses and swastikas on Deutsche Welle all the time, stop being a retard.

nick

This boomer is based as FUCK

Pat

"this guy is nuts" Yes

Doug Cartel

I feel like the US State Department are the actual idiots, since they thought they could overthrow the Ukrainian government in 2014 and thought Russia would just be fine with it and having american nukes pointed at Moscow from Sevastopol. Then they are somehow surprised that the Russians, those crazy psychos, were apparently not okay with it.

Robert Aitken

what if it was Norm Funkelstein and he liked to get down

danny

i love reading norm’s books and purely hearing his voice in my head

Sean McL

You’re seeing Leopard 2s tuning with swastikas on German news!?? Holy shit this is huge!!

James Roche

Psychological examination of Putin and the Russian public consciousness is not in and of itself apologia for the invasion of Ukraine.

Daniel Hepburn

It simply wasn't a threat in the long or medium term. You are also misinformed about Russia and Nato. Early on after the fall of the CCCP, there was optimism that Russia would be brought into the fold. This optimism extended into the post 911 era, with the founding of the NATO Russia Council.

Daniel Hepburn

Yeah, because not polishing Finkelstein' royal penis totally makes someone a Mossad agent.

Daniel Hepburn

Well, I did see those clearly photoshopped pics on Truth Social...

Ian H

Yeah I mean the whole point of the realist school is to remove idealist notions and ideological blinders from foreign policy planning, to analyze and interact with the world that exists, not the one you'd like to imagine. It isn't apologia to acknowledge Russia's real, clearly articulated political, economic and security priorities that were intentionally trampled on by the West in the run-up to the war. Whether or not Antony Blinken thinks it's uncouth to talk about spheres of influence, they remain important to every nation in the world, including the U.S. One can only imagine the psychotic war frenzy the American NatSec leadership and political class would whip into if China signed a defense treaty with Mexico and mooted ballistic missile installments in Tamaulipas.

Doug Cartel

Ah ok, guess I have to explain to the children that IF there are soviet era tanks with swastikas on them NOW then theres a PRETTY GOOD chance that there WILL be some Leopard 2s with them very soon.

Doug Cartel

And I literally paused and screen capped a DW livestream when a BMP with an iron cross drove through the frame, so you'll have to explain why the germans would deliberately fake a livestream in real time.

Daniel Hepburn

You also have to actually answer the question, as opposed to regaling us with stories about the color of RBG's underpants and the argumemt you had with Sal Ginsberg in 1963.

Sean McL

The amount of completely unthinking, fascist, pro-Invasion, pro-Russia in the Chapo audience is embarrassing. Reading these comments was a fucking eye opener, I never knew how many mouth-breather edgelords unquestioningly swallowed their ironic pre-war “durrr Ukrainians are all nazis” shtick.

Sifl

Finklestein's take on Russia is intellectually dishonest and he knows it. Russia is a nuclear power. Russia has about 6,000 nuclear warhead and a nuclear triad delivery system (air, land and sea) and now has hypersonic missiles that are more than likely capable of delivering a nuclear warhead. Russia's nuclear deterrent has been highly effective at keeping Russia's borders secure for decades and has even given Russia the upper hand in conflicts like Syria, Georgia and now Ukraine (western forces are giving Ukraine the minimum amount and quality of arms due to a fear of Russian nuclear escalation). And equating Russia's 30 mil dead in WWII to the 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust is just viciously wrong. Stalin was Hitler's partner at the outset of the war and divided up Poland and E. Europe per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and helped Hitler defeat Poland's army by invading from the east when the Nazis were bogged down trying to take Warsaw. Stalin suffered from the same delusions of grandeur that Putin suffers from today and thought that the Nazis would eventually run out of steam allowing the Soviets to sweep across Germany and control most of Europe. Stalin was just as bloodthirsty as the Nazis at the outset of the war, carrying out murderous conquests in Finland and the Baltic states and Poland. And remember that Stalin was in the genocide business long before the Nazis with the Holodomor that killed 3-5 million Ukrainians. The Russians were not just a bunch of humble communists sitting around when the Nazis attacked. They were a rival imperial power that worked hand in hand with the Nazis before the Nazis decided to attack Russia.

Ian H

And regarding pre-war Ukrainian feelings, it's kinjda hard to believe that the actions of the Ukrainian government are representative of those when I've heard Vicky Nuland literally pick their president ("Yats is our guy"). It would seem to me though, that there's a clue in the fact that Zelensky was elected with an overwhelming mandate as a peace candidate whose main campaign promise was an end to conflict in the Donbas and de-escalation with Russia. When he pulled the old neolib switcheroo and governed in direct contravention of that promise he became massively unpopular right up until the invasion.

Sean McL

As long as you’re admitting you’re inventing things to get mad at then there’s hope for you yet

Fiddypea

Now I must tell you kids, Matt and Felix have laryngitis and a bad back, so they won't be saying anything or doing anything

Rob

Then would the US be justified in invading Mexico in that scenario? Again I understand the why they feel the way they do, but it comes down to should a large power be justified in invading a smaller country based on perceived threat.

miltonic

Love norman, what an end to the interview too. My guy.

Doug Cartel

Ah ok, so you're just splitting hairs over how factual my cynical predictions are. Go masturbate or something instead, this is pointless.

Doug Cartel

As far as I can tell the whole "hitler + stalin = friends" thing was conjured up by the baltic republics (huge nazi simps) who just want to whitewash their own complicity in the holocaust.

The Fine Art Revolution

i think he wove most of these things together rather wonderfully, they are all intricately connected

Sean McL

Lmao you’re nofap too!? Retain for Vladimir Vladimirovich, brother! He will respect your sacrifice!

Axel H.

Not really. I don't see the utility in acting as if Russia's motives are indecipherable or the product of them just being evil. I can understand why they invaded Ukraine without "agreeing" with it.

Brendan Kneeland

“Elizabeth Hassenfuss” I spat my drink out 😂😂😂

William Beamish

I think trying to extrapolate a US/Mexico scenario to a situation that isn't really analogous is a waste of time. In Ukraine, their democratic government was overthrown and the conflict in the Donbas began; it had been a very long civil war long before the Russian invasion. People there had been asking for Russian help. As well, NATO constantly expanding despite promises that it wouldn't really made this into a "do or die" moment for Putin's government. Either they moved in now when they have the strength to do so, or they allowed their own security to be permanently undermined. Should a larger alliance (NATO) be justified in pressuring a smaller country (Russia)? Supporting the 2014 coup was already going too far; suggesting that Ukraine would join NATO essentially forced Russia's hand.

Doug Cartel

Nah I'm just normal. Still waiting for you to explain why german TV would draw fake swastikas on ukrainian tanks and then livestream them 10 times an hour though.

Kyle Smyth

Appreciate his perspective on Israel and Jewish experience in modern America from the left. Unfortunately the rest of it felt like a discussion from 2019 and some petty grievance airing. And the Russia stuff... yikes. Thought those takes had been blown up by the invasion but you still have guys trying to say Putin is a smol bean or whatever. Pretty embarassing.

Walking Bones

I like how your interpretation of "NATO is responsible" is that only NATO is responsible for the invasion. Of course Putin is a militant oligarch, this is no surprise, and the invasion of Ukraine is an action being carried out by the Russian military, ostensibly under his control. No one is actually arguing that we "made" Putin do anything, just that NATO instigated the conflict by continuing to expand in flagrant disregard of Russian political goals. Also, just because there's rules that technically prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, they were and still are fundamentally supported by the military infrastructure of NATO. They're getting arms and aid from NATO countries, they're appealing to join it; it's nonsense to say that Ukraine can't be in NATO based on the exact wording of the rules, because look at our involvement already.

Sean McL

Now the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is a conspiracy theory conjured up by crafty Latvians, lmao come on man

Ian H

Yeah to Will Beamish I agree the Mexico/China comparison isn't meant to be gamed out, just a rough equivalent for Americans to consider what the Russian mindset might have been. To Robert Frenken, the whole point I'm making is that justified's got nothing to do with it. Russia made its red lines very clear, we shoved Ukraine over them, now Ukrainians and Russians are paying the price. The only question for us as Americans is whether to support our own government's continuous decision to prolong the conflict or agitate for peace and for the U.S. to participate in immediate negotiation.

Isaac

nobodies reading all that chief

Sheila Mydick

I suspect we’d all agree that invasion is not the morally proper response. However, we might agree that states like Russia and America don’t make foreign policy choices based on what is justified. They make foreign policy choices on the predictable decision-making axis based on a certain conception of their self interest (which is not informed by morality or justice). I take these premises as true, feel free to disagree. Because I believe those premises are descriptively correct, then I can infer that the Russian response to the trajectory of American actions post-1991 up to the invasion is mostly predictable and therefore also the the responsibility of the United States. Does this make sense?

William Beamish

Sifl coming in with paragraphs of Pop Western "history" lmao

Sean McL

I can explain perfectly: so you closed your eyes, imagined a Leopard 2 tank on fire, then got super mad, opened them up, logged on to patreon.com and typed out your little fantasy and now you're pulling the Jordan Peterson line of "well the fact that I believed it shows how serious it is". As to what you're actually seeing on TV, man I don't know what shit you're watching. I do know that there's a bunch of weird fuckers in every single country on earth and you'd better believe if there was an invasion of Germany, Italy, USA, Iceland or wherever there would be some freaks painting all manner of shit on their vehicles. Doesn't mean the aggressor would be justified or correct to start their invasio... sorry I'll use your term... *special military operation*

Isaac

well aren't you precious

Ardy Rezv

Keep in mind this is the same community that bitched for years about being virgins on the subreddit. Not the brightest group of people around.

Jack

Agreed, and I think it is a compelling bit of context, but the framing that the primary factor for the invasion and past annexations was so reductive. Comparing Putin’s position with Stalin’s is ridiculous since nuclear weapons change everything. The borders of Russia will never be under threat with their nuclear deterrent, they only stand to lose political influence of ex-Soviet states to NATO. Ignoring their economic motivations as petro state is very dishonest. The annexations and invasion clearly had much to do with political influence and economic advantage, and there has not been a threat to Russia’s borders. The historical context is and undercurrent

William Beamish

"Soviets were as bad as the Nazis" is a slightly more subtle version of Holocaust denialism

S Agsar

Mf read one Timothy Snyder book 😂

Isaac

Did you even listen? He never said they were paid, he said they were fake radicals that have made it into the mainstream and they don't want to give up their position within the liberal elite. The said thing is that they're NOT getting paid, they just did it to stay on the club.

Sean McL

So I'm correct that they can't join NATO, you just don't like the the definition of "in NATO" and want it to include things like "not in NATO"

S Agsar

I get the impression that Will does like 99% of the show prep for interviews and the other guys basically can't be bothered...

Doug Cartel

man, weakest shit I ever read. oh well, guess I should trust the worthless Bandera simp instead of my own fucking eyes when I'm watching western news again.

Isaac

They were interviewing an academic, not riffing with another podcaster. He did exactly what they had him on to do, if you're attention span is really that short then go watch some tiktoks instead

Doug Cartel

but don't worry, Ukraine wasn't going to do anything crazy when they joined NATO, even though they could and wanted to build their own nuclear weapons and every government official was a spineless kleptocrat who obeyed the Nazis whenever they kicked in their office doors. Nope. Totally normal country was going to act totally normal with nuclear weapons. Definitely.

William Beamish

Have this guy on more please. He annoys the worst Chapo fans more than anybody else :)

B2B Commuter

Ignoring the part where he said that Obama, Kendi, and Van Jones got millions from Jack Dorsey and Jeff Besos…you really don’t think money comes from being within the liberal elite? All of what he said and what you’re repeating is incredibly obvious and most normal people will roll their eyes at you both because you sound like you’re whining to the ref.

William Beamish

yes agreed JD; the war being an outcome of US/NATO actions was entirely predictable

Baron

Kendi’s been on my list for a while, but haven’t been able to get to anything more than an article yet. I felt off about Norm’s critique as well, glad you cleared this up. Thanks

Baron

He’s always been a congested boy

infinitesunrise

Damn, I've been using the "We'll burn that bridge when we get to it" mixed metaphor for years and people either didn't find it funny or didn't get it. Never heard anyone else ever use it. Now this guy's using it as a whole book title? Maybe I wasn't aiming high enough. Respect.

Aaron Kamolz

The dry boys have to know that the episodes where they have their heroes on and reverently let them ramble and dominate the conversation are some of the worst episodes to listen to

Sam Ray

Russian apologia? sit down.

Telos_277

The same logic used to justify the invasion of Iraq was used against Ukraine. Same as Israel uses against Palestinians. I thought this episode was the nadir of Chapo. How can you let this liberal spew that racist shit as well? Finkelstein is a fucking liberal along with genocide denying Noam Chomsky

grimbo

Hey you forgot to mention the "good Wehrmacht" myth bullshit.

Peacock Jive

You should suck my cock, fucking retard.

Rob

JD true, but then at the end you add that the US is responsible, which is an obligation/ an ought. This is my issue with Realism, they claim they're "above ideology", but then make future claims of who is at fault and what ought to be done. Russia can be a big fish eating a smaller fish, but then US needs to placate its own ambitions and self interest? It's either a big fish eating smaller fish world where blame or responsibility can't be assigned, since there's only self interest and there are no morals, or you need to operate on justifications aka ideals. To have both is a contradiction to Realism.

Peacock Jive

Who said anything about nazis? I mean the 2014 cia coup backed ukrainian government does celebrate nazi collaborators but I didn't even bring that up. I was referring to the 2014 cia coup backed ukrainian government that banned the communist party of ukraine and also banned all labor unions. There's nothing "edgelord" about having a basic grasp on the world and its recent history that wasn't spoon fed to you by the cia and state department.

Peacock Jive

Unthinking russiagate retard

B

How brave. How edgy.

Ian H

Anticolonial icons Ypatingasis būrys

Justin Davis

Its impossible to hate this guy even if hes off the mark on some things

Don Tickles

I'd like to avoid ad hominem attacks

Jimmy B

Chomsky, for his many many faults, simply had questions about the media reporting on the Khmer Rouge when they were still in power. That dumbfuck libs like you call him a heckin genocide denier 50 years later is a far bigger indictment of your narrow mindedness than him.

Skullbrain

I havent listened yet but is this another episode where the most new yorkian geezer ever lectures the audience for 2 hours while the boys stay utterly silent??

Sheep

That is exactly it and i fucking love it

Sifl

Stalin's great purge killed about 750,000 Russians and the result was a Soviet system that had no one left who was competent at doing anything. Even the Soviets would later in the 1980s go on to claim that this resulted in the death of millions due to starvation. Add to that the 3-5 million killed in the Holodomor and innocent civilians killed during the invasion of Finland, Poland and the Baltics and Stalin and Hitler are not that far off from each other.

Kyle Smyth

"Beefing with individual members of the view, democracy now, and ibram x kendi in 2023 is based truth-telling!" Sure grandpa, let's get you to bed.

Caleb Pykkonen

Loved this! I haven’t read any of Finkelstein’s books yet but now I’m going to

B

Left wing Russia apologists are the same people who campaigned for Ron Paul in 2008.

Jaime Christley

To borrow a turn of phrase from Orson Welles, having a Russia v Ukraine take is like trying to clean up shit with white gloves. The shit doesn't become more glovey. That said Russia v Ukraine, local beef. NMFP

Erol C

First Richard, now Norm, you guys are doing the lord’s work thank you

Budget Hireling

Very out of touch episode. Do the dry boys know that I already know every fact about WW2 from playing Hearts of Iron??? I also feel condescended to because an old person looked at me with a boomer tone, in a way that DOES NOT reflect poorly on my intellectual insecurity. Also Russia bad and where are my spoofs and goofs. I will expect my refund check in the mail for my 2 years of subscription, if you need me I'll be in my bathtub filled with doritos.

Andrew M

what an adventure

Sheila Mydick

Your point is well taken. I think my invocation of American responsibility is a bit of a reflex to the media milieu I perceive as being full stop pro-Ukraine pro-armament that condemns all criticism of American policies both pre and post invasion as Putin apologia. I feel a responsibility to call out USA b/c I’m an American. You are probably right to point out that my statement is contradictory in as much as I do that. I fear is nuclear war. I am fearful of what I view as American foreign policy’s bellicosity toward Russia post-1991 because Russia is now much more vulnerable and therefore theoretically more likely to employ nuclear bombs than before. I have absolute sympathy for the Ukrainian cause but would sacrifice the country before endorsing a policy that could lead to nuclear war. Contrarily, others have pointed out that nuclear deterrence factor is probably more significant than I give credit for. After all, if we won’t invade North Korea then we will NEVER come to blows with Russia and China. I suppose what I’d hope for out of a realist foreign policy establishment (which I assume USA will always have) is a self-limiting principle that lends itself to cooperation with other great powers to the end of avoiding global conflict. That also describes a dangerous form of imperialism that could easily produce world war. tl;dr I’m scared of WW3 and criticize US foreign policy to assuage my anxiety about having no say in NukeWar

Sam

That’s such a horseshit claim. You want to be against the invasion, fine. But pretending like Russia doesn’t have legitimate security concerns and that the Ukrainian state didn’t actually pose a threat to their national interest is total shit. I can’t stand this never ending “everything that happens has to assume the dimension of something I already understand” from Americans. This would be 1:1 with Iraq if Iraq actually had bio weapons and was shelling an American city while China built them a huge army and trained them while publicly releasing policy documents about destroying the US. It’s not even comparable. Just tap out and admit you have no comprehension of comparative politics or international relations.

Sam

100% this.

Mark

I thought she was okay back in the day (I’m an old), but thought her talk show was insufferable. I can forgive a lot of that for that hard take you posted. I wish more of the “Hollywood elite” would use their voices like that. I’m shocked what a milquetoast addition Whoopie turned out to be on that brain-numbing show. Her early standup was legitimately challenging character work, so watching her in deference to the system is pretty gross. Guinan, whatever happened to you? 🤣

Sam

It’s good to see that the most derivative, soyest, NYT reading pussies that listen to chapo are shitting themselves on this one. Norm rocks.

J.P. McD.

Come up with a more descriptive insult than “fucking lib”, it’s overused by the worst Chapo posters

J.P. McD.

Felix’s sarcasm was like a player coming back from a month long injury looking great, who then bricks a showboat dunk attempt.

Gordon Schmidt

The thing about Finkelstein is that he's the king of cranky academics. Nobody will ever be crankier than he is. He's a really smart guy with a lot to offer, but first you must accept that he is terminally cranky- the title of his new book should be a big hint. I highly recommend this piece, especially for anyone dealing with tankie brain (used a weird link because Norm's site is down lol) https://www.insideassyria.com/rkvsf5/wwwboard/msgs/Misadventures_in_the_Class_Struggle_By_Norman_Finkelstein-15Fa.html

Gordon Schmidt

Also fingers crossed for an IDF coup/Israeli civil war. Norm is right that this current spat over the court has little to do with Palestinians directly, but the conflicts within Israeli society that it has laid bare could benefit Palestinians enormously. Disunity among your foe is almost always a good thing.

Sam Ray

This. I never understood why some people love to publicly humiliate themselves like this.

DMTotinos

It's true, Putin invaded Ukraine as a trauma response, the invasion of Georgia on the other hand was because of his imposter syndrome, glad you finally you had a high level Empath on the show that picks up on these energies

texas_tankie

God bless, Norman Finkelstein.

BryceSprungstein

Hitler killed 30 million people in a war of extermination on the eastern front alone. That is very far off.

Alex S

Really enjoyed this episode of the “Chapo get a word in edge ways challenge”

Slamp

I get comparing Israel's annexation of Palestine to Russias annexation of Ukraine, and agree that it is apt, but this feels like it borders on justifying Putin's actions instead of just rightly saying to people in the Ukraine train "where's the outrage about Israel's landgrabs", calling them Hippocrates and just leaving it at that. This dude's the punisher at the party saying obvious leftist takes, going over the edge, and refusing to notice that no one has said anything for the last fifteen minutes. Love most of the content on here and consistently defend this show from people who hate it that obviously haven't listened to a single minute of it, but this one was hard. Twenty minutes in and I had to turn it off

Eamonn Curley

Hahahah I burst out laughing when he called out Matt and Felix🤣

Isaac

Norman is an example of when your need to be annoying just outweighs your need to be correct.

Jonathan G

doesn't have luxury, and yet he owns a piano

Dan

I agree in fact Matt should be doing more interviews, particularly with historians

Crashh

This guy is definitely a professor; good lecture tho

Sam

It’s not apt whatsoever. Comparing these things issues is totally incoherent when drilling down to actual details. Including a very important one - the fact that since 2014 a vast majority of the 40% of Ukraines population flight as gone to Russia. And no, it’s not because they are captives. It’s because they are Russian.

realm lich

Holy shit i asked for this in like 2019. Bless.

Evan Scott

incredible how people from both "I must view the Russia-Ukraine war like a black and white children's story" camps get frothing mad every time the conflict comes up on this show

buttface

Finklestein is a legend. Show some respect you babies.

Slamp

Only 60 percent of the population? 🥱 Amiright?

Greasy_Jones

Whenever Matt isn't talking Norm should be saying "Where's Christman?"

richard parker

So I guess Finkelstein watches the view

Slamp

I have a friend whose partner is one of the Russians you're speaking of. He left Ukraine for Poland and so did his ex, along with their child. They're mad at the demonization of Russians by the Ukrainian government for sure (and justifiably so), but they're also extraordinarily angry that Putin chose to start a war that demolished the city they were living in, killed their friends(would it help if I told you they're a leftist?), and uprooted their lives. There is no changing the narrative that the onus of the blame rests on this shithead,( who is a die hard capitalist I might add) Russian version of an ex CIA agent, for starting the war in the first place. But boohoo for those people, right? Cool take.

blizzardthrills

i googled this man and he looks NOTHING like he sounds,

Evan

Imagining Norman Finkelstein explaining to a child why Santa isn’t real “It is time we put this ABHORRENT delusion behind us” [crying] “Save your CROCODILE TEARS.”

Jaime Christley

He was on….. Trueanon, I think? and I just pictured Fred Melamed.

Josh

I love Norm so much! Could listen to him all day. Thanks for finally having him. Now go tell Nick and Adam to have him on tafs

Sean McL

Jesus you are like an NY Times reader in the early 2000s grasping for reasons to invade Afghanistan or Iraq ... but for the Russian invasions of Ukraine. I feel like I've discovered a new species, this is incredible.

Jaime Christley

I'd hate to catch Norm on a day when he decides he WILL go ad hominem

K H

To the same extent as disagreeing with someone makes them a babbling moron yea.

M.R. Alchemist

Hopefully Is(n't)real goes the way of Haiti; While the oppressors war amongst themselves the Lions rise. Inshallah

Kameron Jackson

I feel really confused when I see people talk about Ukrainians as the aggressors. Just feels a bit like when an abuser says that you’re abusing them?

Arthur G. Pym

I could listen to Norm all day. In fact I have

Arthur G. Pym

One day when you grow up you might go to college, where you’ll listen to boomers all day! And who knows maybe you’ll learn something

Arthur G. Pym

Honestly baffled by the comments complaining about Norm. I must be getting old but to me Norm is a towering legend of the left and a hero. I could listen to him all day. His books had a huge influence on my politics and a lot of other people’s too. He is rigorous, honest, courageous and incisive. This was a great ep

David Heslin

“This guy is nuts! He’s turning history on its head. It’s Russia that invaded Ukraine.”

Donald

Fucking love Norm

Sam

Why do people keep on comparing Russia/Ukraine to Israel/Palestine? Does palestine get $50 billion, advanced weapons systems, formal training, and explicit backing of the most violent and powerful empire on earth? Wait, which entity in this scenario is more like Israel? Isn’t it Ukraine?

Patricio Cambias

Kendi and his neolib anti-racism book fucking suck

Liam

bro, calm down. it is really funny though, reminds me of a grandpa ranting then out of nowhere just goes, "I haven't heard any of you say anything all day!" then continues to dominate the conversation completely obliviously because he just goes on tangents that are 12 degrees of separation from where he started.

KCKC88

Last I checked, workers can organizing and collectively bargain in Russia along with allowing opposition leftist parties in the Duma but it is obviously not a workers state. Ukraine stripped workers of their rights to collectively bargain and banned leftist parties. Tell me again which country is fascist?

Axel H.

South Africa really does come closest to Israel/Palestine (in the apartheid sense) and even it’s not an exact parallel in many ways, especially when it came to other nations’ involvement. Comparing Russia/Ukraine to it makes no sense though.

justdave

I think the biggest difference is that Palestine has a Jewish population

Jason K

Love Norm. Btw, RIP Marty. The two founding cats of Chapo are gone.

Babak

How much would you pay to have Finklestein over for dinner ? 500? 1000?

Emily

FINK!!!!!!! 🐐

Emily

JEWISH LEGEND!!!!! 🐐

Doug Cartel

all right, here's my closing argument then. I actually don't believe the Russian invasion is justified, but because you're retarded you're going to mistake my nuance for you winning the argument. I think they made a bad decision, but they only had bad decisions in front of them. Why's that? Well, Vlad DID demand diplomatic talks in 2021, when Zelensky, the "anti-war candidate", the "peace cadidate" was talking about invading Crimea. (The Crimean annexation was illegal, but that's the worst you can say about it. Nobody died. They already had Sevastopol because they had a lease with the UKR government before the US overthrew it to try to snatch that coastline for NATO navies. Zelensky was risking World War 3 to get that dumb fucking peninsula back.) You see, the Nazi militias, who had tremendous influence and were essentially the only competent military asset UKR even had, were ignoring both Minsk agreements and murdering civilians with artillery. (Who cares what anyone in the Donbass thinks though, they're just Fake Ukrainians that need to be pushed out of that region anyways, right? That's what the Nazis, who, you know, were holding up the whole UKR military for the last eight years were saying.)(By the way, if the UKR regained control over Donbass they could just build their own nukes. Wouldn't you love for those Nazi militias to have those?) You don't remember any of this because you didn't know what Ukraine was before February 2022. The Russians have no reason to trust the US, though, because the US has spent the last 30 years ignoring every warning Russia gave about NATO getting too close, and broke every single promise we made with Russia while people starved to death in their Moscow apartments and american megacorps picked over the soviet corpse like a flock of vultures. So how come Russia had to be a bitch and be all soyface and cringe when the UKR government was overthrown? Why couldn't they just be cool? Was it because we broke every promise we made for the last 30 years? Was it because we played 4 different warlords off each other in the 90s and blamed ALL the violence on the Serbians? Was it because the State Department was full of acolytes of COld War Era politicians who all said Russia needed to suffer the same fate as Yugoslavia in order for America to rule the world? Was it all of those things together? Or is Putin just a meanie who wants land that Ukraine only controlled for like 23 years before those mean evil Donbass zombie Babushkas stole Ukrainian land? You seem like one of those guys who's just super mad that russia was only invaded twice in the 20th century, that only 45 million Russians died from those wars and the disasters that those wars spawned. Like Jimmy Carter's SecDef was. What was your reaction when you found out about the Odessa Massacre? Were you happy or naive? Were you like "Oh im sure it was an accident, they were just trying to have a bonfire, they didn't know all those people were in that building"? You dumb useless fuck. The USA triggered a civil war in 2014, Russia got tired of it, and every time they tried to discuss it with the west, the west told them to fuck off and rambled some abstract bullshit about how it's "every state's right to join any defensive alliance they want" (We are defending the rights of a bunch of Ukrainian kleptocrats to spark international crises by ignoring Russia in other words). A freshman taking a diplomacy 101 class could tell you why that was a stupid move on the wests' part. A fucking lobotomy patient could tell you. But somehow, you don't get it. Or maybe you're one of those Lithuanians who holds a parade every year for the SS divisions that helped slaughter 30 million people in the USSR a century ago. Or maybe you're Sean McElwee, since your username sounds so familiar. In that case, nothing I said matters to you, so whatever. I'm leaving this here for anyone else to read so they understand why the nukes are flying, and why I think the US is the one to blame here.

Pawgmental

How anyone can call Norm a Lib is beyond me

Sarah Stinard-Kiel

Finkelstein’s an absolute legend and I prefer when the hosts don’t talk. 10/10

J.W.

That was the greatest final sentence of a guest on any podcast in human history.

Damian

Love it when you guys have old professors on to scream at you for an hour

SF

It's an interview episode, so you know half the patreon comments are going to be red rose gritties bitching and whining. Anyway, great ep! Norm's a legend.

Gabipentin

teared up listening him talk about his grandparents photos on the mantel though. We had the same for my Nicaraguan grandparents. He and Putin just like me fr

Daniel Martínez González

Those whiners are stupid, this man stood up to the Dershz and gave him a run for his money so hard he was moderated out of the academy discord because Alan is a big whiny baby. He even instagibbed that bitch that tried to cry in front of him because he said bad things about Israel in front of everyone and didn't give a shit. This man is in the hall of fame of decent people.

AEC

Why do they have to “end it there” like someone’s in the background doing that “wrap it up” finger spinning in the air move 🤨😒 lame lame-lame lame-lame laaaaame. Tho…I’ll admit seeing the folks spin it positively in the comments is making me quickly chill, and appreciate it more. Lol. Also maybe they cut that shit out bc it was libelous I don’t know who knows. Anyway. It was nice tho.

bobbyboy32059

Russia-Ukraine has to be the best example I can think of right now where even incredibly intelligent people can't help but inject their emotions into it to a degree that it really just ends up being about who to stan from their position of relative powerlessness. Like it would just too much for a lot of people for this all to be a mess of amoral power moves made by a competing class of people that are insulated from the fear and death they cause by fighting amongst themselves. If that were the case, no one's voyeuristic opinions would matter, no matter how spicy and contrarian they made them.

Slamp

I'm not saying that what Russia has done to Ukraine is even close to as fucked up as Palestine. Nor did I j attempt to justify the insane amount of money Ukraine is receiving. I'm saying comparing the sense of outrage that liberals express about Russias invasion of Ukraine to their lack of outrage about what has been going on in Palestine for fifty years is appropriate. I don't however think that dismissing what Putin has done because his childhood was hard is appropriate though. Yes, dumbasses who read the NYTimes have selective outrage, but just because they're criticizing the invasion doesn't make the invasion ok or not really fucked up. But just because what is happening in Palestine is totally fucked up, and Israel deserves to be roundly condemned, does not mean that what Russia has done to Ukraine isn't fucked up and incredibly sad. There are degrees here people! Jesus!

Dan

Came for the bad faith comments trying to tear down Finkelstein, was not disappointed. Ngl he rambled a lot here but I imagine he doesn’t get a lot of calls these days, not toeing the line on US policy and all. I’ve watched his debate with Dersch if you can call it a debate. Dersch is the skeeviest, most disingenuous POS you can imagine, was great seeing Norm wipe the floor with him. Free Palestine

Alex Berkowitz

What is a “red rose” grittie? Fucki it dude what’s a “grittie”? I get the gritty mascot was popular with young leftists but what’s it mean now?

Ellen Anderson

This is the first time I have listened twice to a podcast. It was simply wonderful.

Slamp

There are many of us who are just sad the invasion ever happened, think it's wrong for Putin to have done it, and also lament the fact that this war ended up making fascist recruitment in Ukraine spike significantly. Putin is merely taking territory and used the azov brigade as one of his many justifications. There are fascists in the Russian military too. That doesn't mean I think that the entire Russian military is fascist. It's not that simple. I and most people I know are deeply against the invasion of Ukraine, but also incredibly against the insane levels of military aid that is being given to Ukraine. I would venture to suggest that the overwhelming majority of Ukraine's population is not fascist. The fact that thousands have lost their homes and been uprooted, even though they have received a lot more support than many other countries people who probably need that help more, does not change the fact that the invasion wasn't actually necessary and ended up killing thousands of people who were just living their fucking lives. And now these peoplehave to either listen to idiot liberal westerners cynically turn their displacement into a cause, or dipshit authoritarian leftist westerners call them fascists for being angry that their homes were destroyed and their relatives killed. But good job reducing the discussion in the same way all the libs do I guess?

Slamp

Sound logic. So just making sure we're clear: next time our government passes anti worker legislation, you want me to ask a country with better health care and worker protections to bomb your home and kill your friends? Jlmk ty!!!

Comedy News

You should listen to the True Anon interview with Norm if you can, it's maybe even better

Dan

Ask your mother

Slamp

Yeah. I also thought it was a weird way to pivot from talking about Palestine. When he first started talking about Russia I thought he was gonna just use it to point out the selective outrage of the US media and general population, and then move on. But to then go on a twenty minute rant about Putin's childhood trauma and how that caused him to forcibly conscript Russian teenagers to go kill Ukrainians? Like, I agree that we don't talk enough about Palestine. So fucking t TALK ABOUT IT instead of trying to justify the bombing and displacement of regular people, the overwhelming majority of whom, had nothing to do with the "geopolitical threat", real or imagined, that Ukraine's joining of NATO might represent to Russia.

J.P. McD.

I think it means the leftists who are pathetically 2017-2020 pilled, the ones who still think it’s legitimately important and useful to police the opinions of other posters and podcasters

JV

Many Palestinians regard the 'apartheid' label as a whitewash that barely scratches the surface of a symptom. You could argue the United States is genuinely the closer analogy. An explicitly genocidal, wholly settler colony. 'Apartheid, like in South Africa' doesn't come close to articulating the exterminatory logic and reality of the Zionists, and this is something many black South African leaders have pointed out.

Ellen Harold

Adolph Reed— dream on.🌿🫠🌦️☁️

Crosley Querin

"Pull up Wikipedia on Putin and look up childhood". You better believe Will pulled that shit up.

Steve D

It was perfectly timed. I laughed my ass off.

Raoul Duke

Where you at faggot??

Raoul Duke

Let’s meet up bitch boy if you really wanna snitchjacket

Raoul Duke

Shut the fuck UP and stop acting like Western media narratives even matter to what’s going on in Ukraine. Will low key agrees with you if you look at his fucking Twitter; he’s just not dumb enough to make it his whole thing like Brace & Liz are

Christopher

What was the point of this comment? So everyone knows you're a little baby who needs to be catered to 100% of the time? God the Patreon commenters are the worst, I'd rather steal the show like the real fans.

Stanlej

Zoomers and radlibs. Norm is an autistic king.

Irwin Maldonado

Loved Norm calling out Felix and Matt for not talking lol.

The wazzzzaaapp bud light dude

Gotta say, the fervent debatelord bullshit is a welcome reprieve from the “is Felix even trying!? So disappointed!” bullshit.

Lizabet

I'm hearing this for the first time!

CT

Oh plz. Where was your pearl clutching when the west was spending decade’s encroaching on Russia’s borders? Poke the bear for long enough…..

tyler valentik

Idk if thats an earnest statement but if it is i agree with it earnestly. They are great curators of left thinkers' voices and as much as i like listening to the boys chattin it up i do appreciate hearing an old professor scream at them on occasion.

Jack Sylvia

Really stickin it to those working class Holocaust survivors

stinkface

If you don't think finkelstein rambling for an hour and a half is a great ep of any show then you have truly lost your way and you will be in my prayers 🙏

TugNuggins

Why would you upload this?

Rene Saller

He's the GOAT, and I loved this episode. Thanks for inviting him on the pod!

Evan C.

This is fucking great. Maybe the uneducated riffing about Russia on Chapo will finally end as a bonus.

Rene Saller

Some people, even some highly intelligent ones like Professor Finkelstein, who can be very funny and sarcastic himself, aren't always attuned to other people's use of irony. I think Finkelstein is fundamentally earnest, which means irony isn't his first language, as it were.

bobbyboy32059

...how many oligarch sugar daddies do you have to be anything like Putin? This is why I love the left. One second it's sober analysis, the next it's pickme's reflexively making wholeass parasocial relationships just to avoid being accused of being a liberal.

Rene Saller

Some enterprising young producer--the next Chris Wade or Yung Chomsky--needs to approach Norman Finkelstein about doing a Patreon podcast. I would subscribe.

bobbyboy32059

That's kinda like being the goat at nailing birds to the outside of your house ngl. I know it's hard to understand when you're enjoying the attention but sometimes when everyone in the room looks at you like there's shit running down your leg, it's actually not a good sign.

Rene Saller

Someone make that happen, please!

vermouth

yeah i wouldnt know ive never shit my pants dork

Benjamin Jarvis

It’s only overused because it never ceases to be apt.

Slamp

Y'all realize that probably no one who listens to Chapo watches CNN, right? This isn't Twitter. It's not the 2020 dem primary. And we're not 60 year old "blue check mark libs" unable to hold a nuanced discussion about the complex nature of geopolitics and imperialism. You don't need to project that shit onto us. Honestly, y'all's logic is basically just "opposed to Ukrainian invasion=loves Nicholas Kristoff". Cars aren't bikes because they have wheels. Vegetarians aren't fascist because Hitler didn't eat meat. Putin isn't a good guy because the US government cynically criticizes him. And we're not supporters of US imperialism or the azov brigade for lamenting the needless deaths of thousands of Ukrainian civilians. That while thing about saying there are Nazis in the Ukrainian military is correct. None of us dispute that. Is it fucked up for Ukraine to forcibly conscript people? Yes. Did the recruitment by and sympathy for fascists in Ukraine increase dramatically because of Putin's decision to invade? Absolutely! He exacerbated the fucking problem. One of the Azov battalion members after the invasion stated as much when he said "first Russia, then Kyiv", implying that these monsters intended to utilize the increased armaments and military experience in overthrowing the Zelensky led Ukrainian government post war. The sheer amount of military aid being unquestioningly given to Ukraine, with no way of dictating who it's given to is indeed fucked up, and again, none of us are really suggesting it isn't. But, again, that wouldn't be where we are right now if Putin hadn't CHOSEN to invade. Material conditions exist yes, but within those material constraints there exists varying degrees of individual and collective agency for a variety of choices. Putin chose this option and it's a bad one. Yes I hate the us acting cynically, and not applying any where near the kind of criticism of Israel they give to Russia, or support to Palestine they give to Ukraine. But there are 2 actors here, not one. Russia and the US. Both suck and both make decisions they don't need to. Fuck! Quit trying to turn everyone who disagrees with you into a Rachel Maddow fan. We're not!

Rene Saller

I think Norman Finkelstein is very handsome.

Gabipentin

the left loves u too <3

Slamp

If you've noticed, no one on here who is in disagreement with you has said that you're a fox news watching desantis supporter because of your views on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, because that's an intellectually simple take, and a dishonest comparison that makes assumptions we can't confirm.

Rene Saller

He was also interviewed on the Bad Faith podcast a year or two ago; Briahna Joy Gray challenged him on several points, but they weren't yelling over each other, and I thought the conversation was mutually respectful and illuminating.

Pepipopa

The Molotov pact was a reaction to the Munich agreement 6 months earlier 'peace in our time' remember you disengenous libs

bobbyboy32059

If so, then it's pretty easy to do considering the fact that someone like Norm has to lean on selling a sob story about the personal life of the Russian head of state. Personally, I'm not really convinced that any assement of politics on this scale should include someone's personal tragedies as anything more than a curiosity.

bobbyboy32059

And if we want to talk about cliche talking points, frankly I think the entire trope of online leftists going back and forth over what is and isn't liberal is basically just posturing. I think anyone that's even cracked a book written in the last 30 years about left poltics should realize that it often doesn't even matter what a given poltical camp has to say about something aside from assessing their motives on a macro scale. Reflexively changing your own position on a single topic because you might accidentally agree with some other jackass is a lazy attempt to stand out.

Dan

Why would u comment this?

bruce

He says the n word on trueanon too

James Walker

“Nagasaki & Hiroshima CHOSE to get nuked by fighting against the Allies in ww2”

Sifl

The Munich agreement was almost a year before Molotov-Ribbentrop. And don't forget that those poor noble Soviets were invited to join the Axis powers before Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa. The German-Soviet Axis talks were several days of intensive negotiations in which the USSR almost joined the Axis powers. The talks broke down over Stalin's demands on Bulgaria, the Bosporus Straits and Hilter's fear that the Soviets wanted to exceed their previously agreed sphere of influence by taking the Balkans. The USSR and the Nazis were playing the same imperial game of carving up Europe. Even if the Nazis had not invaded, the two countries were destined to go to war against each other as their imperial projects clashed in the Balkans and Scandinavia.

Jaime Christley

why do you guys want to work so hard. damn.

Sifl

You can be a progressive and walk and chew gum at the same time. The US is a horrible imperial power that has committed war crimes in Iraq, Central America, and so on. But Russia is doing the exact same thing if not in a competition with the US to see who can be more brazen about it.

Poppy Chulo

What pearl clutching? Do you just get so emotional you spew invectives at people who point out the Ukrainians obviously aren't interested in giving up their autonomy?

SKINNER

This was incredible! What a gift to listen to a politically active old school New York Jewish thinker go off. I love this shit!

The Adventures of Mac

Do you know anything about what's been happening in Ukraine since 2014? No one should try to stop the genocide in eastern Ukraine because it might turn some Nazi sympathizers into Nazi militants?

CT

Lol. What pearl clutching? Haha. Everything your saying is spewing hyperbolic appeals to people’s emotions. Spewing them even. Pretty cool how you are the official mouthpiece for everyone living in the nation we’re discussing. You’re also reducing things down to ludicrously oversimplified, narrow takes. Eff outta here ya clown.

J.P. McD.

Both sides (of Chapo fans who care to argue about Russia-Ukraine) are bad

Sam

Agree to your point, and I think this deep rejection of conversations of race alienates black/brown leftists from the mainstream movements as much as the idpol-based politics does.

Stephen David Miller

Ironically it feels like they are doing to certain Black writers what the internet does to them: equate them with the behavior of their most annoying fans. It’s lazy!

Poppy Chulo

"Theres enough of a "monolith" to turn a two week invasion into a year long protracted bloodbath with tens of thousands of dead Russians." That's a fact not an appeal to emotion. If anything your posts come across as highly emotional complete with absolutely basic grammatical mistakes. You just come off as a giant reactionary unhinged crybaby.

shipss

According to his Wikipedia Finkelstein is wildly hot??

Dang

Okay so is it a racist dog whistle if you're dog whistling that people are nazis?

Colonel Flanders

You know, maybe there were some parts that I didn't quite agree with, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. Thanks guys.

Besand

“Obama Bohemian“ as a placeholde for some of the worst aesthetics imaginable

Friendly_platypus920

@Walking Bones You wrote: "No one is actually arguing that we "made" Putin do anything, just that NATO instigated the conflict by continuing to expand in flagrant disregard of Russian political goals" The general opinion from some folks on the left is actually that NATO expansion is why Putin invaded. That seems to be this guest's perspective. NATO "made" russia invade, in so many words. Your assertion that 'nobody is saying that' is false, that's a major part of the narrative.

Friendly_platypus920

And to clarify here, I'll give you an analogy: If I said that I empathize with a school shooter, I might tell you that I was bullied mercilessly in school. I'd say that I can understand what alienation and shame and ridicule can feel like. But I'd need to leave you with the caveat that I wouldn't do that, personally. I'd say that the anger and hurt that I felt would be misdirected with those actions. That's not what he said. He didn't condemn the invasion, he simply empathized, and left it at that. As far as I'm concerned, that's tacit support for Putin's actions. I think he used WWII/the Holocaust as a rhetorical device to explain why Putin invading Ukraine was a good thing, actually. Despite the fact that his invasion is essentially a reason to perpetuate NATO for another couple of decades, because appeasement doesn't work (see NS2 and the insane amount of money Europeans are now spending on defense). In leftist spaces, nobody bats an eyelid when the U.S. is criticized for its shitty policy on Venezuela or Cuba. They see that it's imperialism, and the Cold War era relationships with the USSR were justified because their overbearing, ideologically opposed neighbor was trying to do an imperialism, and they didn't like that. That's what Russia is doing now. They want more imperialism in Georgia, in the Baltic States, in Ukraine and the former Soviet Bloc. Condemn both imperialists. You don't have to love China or Russia simply because they opposed Western powers.

Cassie Kane

Oh yeah, confirmed Fox. 💦

Shake zula

yeah love the funny stuff and the more straightforward typical US leftist shit but I ain't one who gets all upset over having notable people on whose politics don't totally align and just letting them talk. it's good shit. and being the dude to take it to dersh he has earned some fuckin respect glenn getting at least a 2 year ban though at this point

Shake zula

because you needed to hear it motherfucker

Arthur G. Pym

Jonathon the apartheid term is applied very seriously and with lengthy legal argumentation, research and evidence by respected NGO Human Rights Watch in their recent report called Crossing the Threshold which anybody who has opinions on this issue and is serious has read

Shake zula

this was great don't agree with him on everything but the dude makes some excellent points and has a subtle funny old man way about it. I am now mad at Matt and Felix for not speaking though

Tyler Berglund

Great episode, don’t let the negative comments get you guys, Norm is truly a great and insightful guest.

J

Apologia, or just some historical context

Scott Dempsey

Obviously this isn't going to get solved in the Chapo Patreon Replies, but my take on it is that the realist position (Mearshimer, apparently Norm, and the rest) that Putin just had no other choice is bullshit. It removes too much agency from political leaders. If invasion was inevitable, then why did it take everyone in Russia by surprise? In another example, would you say that the invasion of Iraq was inevitable, or a choice by the Bush administration? (those are rhetorical)

DotsTheHero

Oh boy, it's one of those """leftists""" who bitches and moans that "Wokeness has gone too far" but uses the term exactly like a conservative where they refuse to ever define it. Tell me Norman, what part of the modern social left angers you so? Protecting trans people? Gays being allowed to marry? Too many black people in movies? Don't be a coward and hide behind dogwhistles like a conservative, tell us.

Dan

Sounds like someone needs to brush up on Manufacturing Consent.

B2B Commuter

That’s exactly where Im coming from, money and the media were obviously going to be against Bernie and the left so there is no sense looking like a loser in whining about it after the fact because most people are smart enough to intuitively understand that and don’t need it spelled out for them. what’s worse is finklestein kind of confirms their bad faith arguments when he’s going off about people liking Obama because they wanted to be “down with the hood” and woke corporations.

Arthur G. Pym

He wrote a whole book about it, and you’re way off about what kind of guy Finkelstein is but I fully understand the knee-jerk reaction to anything like “anti-woke” rhetoric because of Fox News etc.

DotsTheHero

I'm looking at the synopsis of this book, I'll Burn That Bridge When I Get To It, and it appears to be a book about the tactical deployment of identity politics to try and snuff out class politics. That's an entirely different issue, in the last 15 minutes of this episode he starts saying that woke culture is rewriting movies and books, and that there's nowhere to go to oppose it but the right.

DotsTheHero

Okay, I want to make this as clear as possible. He makes two entirely different points near the end of this video. -The point that there's identitarians one can describe as Woke, who use idpol cynically as a weapon against any sort of class politic (This begins at about 1:14:00) -Whoopi Goldberg (Rape apologist for roman polanski btw)'s denunciation of woke politics, and his personal belief that woke politics have "gone too far", and that there's no way to oppose them except by becoming a tucker carlson (This segment begins at about 1:18:30) On the first point, I entirely agree, there's a ton of cynical shitty fake leftists who see idpol as nothing but a weapon to use against economic, class based progressives. On the latter point, I have no idea what he means by "Gone too far", what part of the modern left social movement does he take onus with? He doesn't tell us he simply dogwhistles like a conservative and declares that they've crossed some kind of line.

Peacock Jive

For lack of a better term LIBTARD!

Austin Stois

I don't think Norman Finkelstein will see this sry

DotsTheHero

Didn't count on it. I will call out conservative brained nonsense and dogwhistling when I see it.

J.P. McD.

believing it’s necessary to “call out” and question people’s true “leftist” credentials for “not speaking carefully about social issues” or whatever is probably a reasonable adjacent example of what he means

DotsTheHero

If you agree with him, feel free to let me know where you think "Wokeness" has gone too far, and what specific social issues and media representation, you believe are getting in the way of class based analysis. This isn't splitting hairs, it's being suspicious of people who seem to be spouting class reductionist arguments.

DotsTheHero

Even if he had in fact said that, it would bring into question what exact social issue or matter of cultural representation he believes Wokeness has, in their conceit, foolishly taken up and thus heralded their own downfall.

Slamp

Wait. Okay the Nagasaki Hiroshima comment: I'm confused. Are you implying that you can't be opposed to the use of nuclear weapons and the slaughter of Nanjing at the same time? Because you can. One doesn't justify the other, nor does one wipe away the other as a crime. I'm just gonna hope you didn't think this through logically before you posted. Because if you did, you're clearly a fucking moron.

Chad Wilkinson

This was a great episode for one that was pretty dry

Arthur G. Pym

The sheer arrogance exuding from your posts is nauseating Joshua. I hope this is just a kind of character you assume when posting, for the sake of your loved ones.

DotsTheHero

I assure you, that my friends and family, many of whom are gay and trans, appreciate in our political discussions, my unwillingness to entertain arguments that the furthering of their rights, or the protection of their lives have "gone too far" in the interests of some class reductionist nonsense via dog-whistle. I am in fact, a rude, and arrogant asshole about my belief that gays and trans people are fully human and that their freedom and protection should ride in lockstep with any left-wing economic value I hold.

DotsTheHero

You're telling me. I didn't honestly think what people said about the comment sections for Chapo Trap House being a bunch of edgy teens without real beliefs, but I just made a basic observation about a conservative-brained argument made by a guest and got ad-hommed by like 5 different people who think I insulted their parasocial buddies. The Chapos, for the record, actually have a pretty good record of not throwing left social issues under the bus in pursuit of left economic issues, but I thought it was apt to point out that their guest seemed to be doing precisely that.

Evan Scott

Lol I always forget he that looks like that

calvin kilby

You seem like the kind of gay guy who goes to a pride event, hears an older queer person refer to trans/gender nonconforming referring to trans ppl as "bisexuals, and then just using that as an excuse to go the fuck in on them when, if you've ever read Quentin Crisp, has nothing to do with bigotry and more to do with the fact that the construction of gay/queer identity occurred in an academic context and was incongruous with working class or subsistence laborers outside the control of the academy. I think your criticism is based on an uncharitable and frankly editorialized version of what Finkelstein was saying here and if you know anything about the guy through his lectures or works I think you'd be really hard-pressed to argue this guy is anything other than a nerd who doesn't subscribe to your own positions regarding economic/social justice. Also this is a cheap shit but man this isn't church so chill out on th sanctimonious better-ally-than-thou shit. It pisses people off who would otherwise be more receptive to criticism.

DotsTheHero

I don't think anyone in this entire comment chain has ever made a serious attempt to answer the question I laid out at the start, of: What innocuous thing did Norman Finkelstein mean, when he said that "Woke culture has gone too far, and is alienating people". Bernie Sanders never says things like that, the Chapos, never say things like that. Saying "Woke Culture" without actually specifying what you mean, is in fact, a dog-whistle, because "woke" can mean anything from "Women aren't tolerating getting raped by their bosses anymore" to "There's too many blacks in movies".

J.P. McD.

Those are the ones he meant, you can stop posting now

calvin kilby

This isn't a party meeting you fucking nerd. Idk what orgs youve been part of before but you're conducting yourself like an irate asshole who keeps bringing up the same issue at meetings wastin time to indulge yourself. If this really is the case, please self-criticize and shut your fucking mouth because you made your point

DotsTheHero

Yeah go ahead and pretend you heard me out when you make yet another post not addressing a single thing I've said. Go ahead and pretend you or anyone else here heard me out and found me disagreeable when you and I both know you uncritically rushed to defend your parasocial relationships.

K H

Yea dude. Norm hates the gays and the blacks. Nailed it bro. Good job buddy. Sit your goofy white ass down and listen. This thread is being decolonized! I'm seizing this thread in interest of reparations! Your cis worldview is not welcome in this space! My vagina is a penis! and it. Is. Screaming! LISTEEEEN.

K H

I watch CNN the same way Matt watches SNL. The basis of the show is clowning on normie shit.

K H

Mashalla. Let Satan know I still love him.

K H

This is actually a pretty accurate description of his speaking style. I only disagree that it's awful.

K H

"What's the ashtray joke? No tell me I wanna hear it."

K H

So why do you think Jeff Besos pays the people he pays? Does it not count when it's people you like? Where was the lie? It made you feel bad so you didn't like it? He wasn't making an appeal to any ref, it was part of his broader point on "woke"ness or performative identity politics and fakes. Additionally, most people aren't smart in that way. If they were we wouldn't be here now. Norm isn't like you constantly online with everyone that has read and internalized Manufacturing Consent. To him, his entire life is him being ostracized from positions for the views he holds. To him it's not obvious normal people would know because they don't and he has had the ramifications affect his career.

calvin kilby

go ahead. keep screaming "Shut The Fuck Up " at me. it only makes my opinions Worse

Barnabas

Dying at Norm monologuing for 98% of the time and then roasting Matt and "this other guy" for not talking

DotsTheHero

This coming from the guy who came into this conversation with "Shut the fuck up" and then 2 other posts that had absolutely nothing to say except protracted "Shut the fuck ups". I should hope even you can grasp the irony at play here.

calvin kilby

Sorry it doesnt take me 30 paragraphs and 8 footnotes to express my attitude to you. And I'll reiterate it here too in case you needed a reminder; shut the fuck up you ultraleft scolding asshole. Your criticism of the fink is unaddressed because its very obviously coming from a place I have no interest to interrogate and this is genuinely beginning to smack of pride on your part so let it fuckin go.

DotsTheHero

Yeah it just takes you repeated shallow adhoms and attacking some perceived rudeness on my part rather than addressing what I'm actually saying. I'll give you another shot. What about "woke culture" has "gone too far" and is what Norm is complaining about at the 1:18 minute mark? If this wasn't a class reductionist dog whistle, you should easily be able to answer this question in a single sentence.

DotsTheHero

Alright I'm done here. I'll close with. You're probably a smart guy so do some introspection as to why you leapt to the defense of a point you couldn't defend whatsoever.

calvin kilby

Why would I defend myself against someone's criticism I don't give a shit about? Why do you think you're owed an argument? Fuck off already

Axel H.

Hmm. Listening to that part again it seems pretty clear to me that he’s talking about performative idpol on the part of mainstream Democrats, the kind that helped undermine Bernie. In other words, no, I don’t think at all he would say that gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry or bemoan black people in movies (note the example he gives is rewriting books, something that literally no one supports and most people can agree is excessive). He’s absolutely right that people who oppose this nonsense often move right since all they know are Dems/libs and the right. Part of the whole reason I was drawn to Chapo and TrueAnon and this corner of politics is because I’m very much on the left but don’t buy into Kendi and that brand of idpol (and expressing this skepticism and criticism of idpol narratives drew right-wingers to me, thinking I was secretly one of them, it's annoying for sure). But I don’t think you need to assume the worst about his positions. I get that when you hear leftists say things that sound like what right wingers say it can be frustrating, esp. since I have seen the dirtbag left turn reactionary (the “Red Scare effect”), but I don’t get that from what he’s saying. There is a balance to be struck. It's just that most people criticizing what he's criticizing are on the right. It doesn't mean there can't be a valid leftist critique of idpol that doesn't take reactionary social positions. I haven’t read the book though, so maybe doing so will provide more explicit answers to your questions.

DotsTheHero

So, fake-idpol leftism, purely meant to admonish genuinely good left figures like Bernie, is really fucking bad. You'll hear no arguments from me on that one, fuck those people. I honestly don't really see the book rewriting as that big of a deal, it's like when conservatives complained about "cancel culture" because the owners of the Dr. Seuss intellectual property took a few books with racist caricature out of print. It's just freedom of expression, honestly, nothing's gonna take the previous versions of these books out of circulation, they're just being revised to create newer variations, stripped of problematic themes.

AKorgar

Norman Finkelstein is an old guard student Maoist who got canceled by the academic establishment for being too anti-Israeli, calling him conservative brained is in fact radlib shit. Feel free to disagree with him, feel free to go on for as long as you want about how you think he's full of shit or whatever, calling him conservative-brained is just fucking stupid and I don't care if you have gay or trans friends to use as a shield for that.

AKorgar

This thread is a perfect example of how Elon Musk can't finish destroying Twitter fast enough The school of online "leftists" who got introduced to the whole concept by Bernie Sanders and now spend all their time attempting to eject the Marxist old guard from the very movement they literally died to build in the 60s and 70s because they don't like the way old farts talk online

Jordan Young

What a brilliant episode. Norm is so precise and pertinent with his critique. We are all tired of the ridiculous emphasis on the aesthetics of structural change as opposed to structural change itself. The fact that these charlatans are supported by the Bezos of the world says all we need to know. I was literally laughing and snapping my fingers in agreement all through this. More of this Chapo!!! 👏🏽🙏🏾🫶🏽

Axel H.

Well, there's an also an element to "rewriting books" that is nothing but a New Coke-style ploy to sell more of the unaltered originals. And I do think there is a tendency for some leftists to want to expel any idpol issues from leftism, viewing the concerns of racial and sexual minorities as "bourgeois", but I don't get that from Finkelstein.

calvin kilby

What really pissed me off here was that I know ppl irl EXACTLY like that knuckle rapping mother superior who get their asses beat up when they try to do any organizing because they try to slither into leadership roles or try to become the face of an organization. It's just self-aggrandizement and that's why it pisses people off.

calvin kilby

the usa absolutely is to fucking blame. putin has multiple times, asked for russia to be admitted into NATO, but has been consistently refused every single time. Of course this is all passed over in silence because....reasons. People here seem to think any kind of explanation that doesn't consistently and constantly condemn Russia/Putin/russian people is simply running interference and justifying the invasion. It's like trying to explain germ theory to a french peasant in 900 AD.

Robby Gross

Norman Finkelstein is a fascinating guy. The assortment of background noises was hilarious though. “Money calling” lmao

Daniel

Garbage. Israeli’s are never going to vote extinction

Nick Lawrence

His rambling about Putin was nonsense. Looks bad dude. Bad episode. Fuckin eye rolling take. Hot take: nato and Russia both bad

Daniel Hepburn

JFC, how idiotic do you have to actually say this out loud?

Daniel Hepburn

No, being a babbling moron and saying idiotic, moronic things makes one a babbling moron.

Peacock Jive

Bro wtf it's a comment section, no one is saying shit out loud,,, ddddildo soy lib

Smith's Fine Electric Amusements

All he said was the 100% truth, that the nazis killed tons of Russians, and that Russia has faced hostility from the west of them for generations now. If you can't accept that simple fact and have to label it "nonsense" and an "eye rolling take" (again, just simple historical facts) Then you may have to face the fact that you're an idiot who hates Putin and Russia for purely US propaganda caused reasons.

Ennis

Listening again!