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Episode 8: Pitch-accent patterns for 1-4 mora nouns (Patreon)

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2016-12-09 18:21:07
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Bibliography
Japanese Phonetics Index Page

Note: I don't suggest that beginners worry about this, but some of the words in this lesson exhibit different pitch-accent patterns in certain special circumstances. For more information on this advanced phenomenon, please see the following lesson:

Lesson 61

This also isn't listed in the above lesson 61, but in certain circumstances the question words such as 何 and だれ can exhibit different pitch accent patters. For example, when used as a 'question word' as in '何が?' or 'What [did it]?' 何 is atamadaka, as in NAni ga, as outlined in the video. However, when it is used to express the term 'nothing' as in the '何' in the phrase '何もない' then it (the 何) becomes 平板, as in naNIMO NAi. If you hear the 'question words' introduced in this lesson being used with different patterns, then this is most likely what's happening—the different pitch accent is reflecting the different / alternate meaning that the word / set-phrase can carry.

-----

In this lesson I talk about the pitch-accent patterns for 1-4 mora nouns. Be absolutely sure to memorize the rule for four mora nouns—it will immediately improve your spoken Japanese!

This episode is very heavy on information so I would encourage everyone to watch it at least three times. If you have any questions or concerns please do not hesitate to let me know!

Thank you all for the continued support,

Dōgen

Files

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Comments

P Dix

Hi Dogen. I am wondering, when you said このひ, why is it pronounced koNOHI? Shouldn't it be koNOhi, because, we learned earlier in the video that hiGADEru and HIgatsuYOi. That is, if 日 is 平板、shouldn't it be a low syllable after この？

Dogen
>>10231394

Hi P. This is a great question! I cover this more in the sentence level pitch-accent lesson, but 平板、中高、and 小高 words attach high, rather than starting low and rising, in phrases that end with 平板 words. If you'd like to learn more, please check out this video for the full description: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-13940725">https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-13940725</a> Thanks again for the great question!

Evan Jones

Here's a good fairly common exception to the 4 mora/2 kanji rule: 人生, which is atamadaka. Less common but same: 訓練

Chase Dahl

You're a champ for making these. I learned most all my Japanese in 大阪, 中国 and 愛媛県 and watching your videos made me I picked up randomly different pitch accents, especially 大阪. Now I can get stuff straight this time! So recently got the Aedict 3 dictionary app from the Google Play Store and it displays pitch accent. Since I use Android and Windows now , it seemed the best option. But it tells me that 日 and 火 fall in the same pitch accent category (頭高型). Is this just reflective of some real-life flexibility or could this be a mistake? Do you know of which are the most official (and preferably free) resources to check my information?

Dogen
>>10479133

Hi Chase. Glad to hear that you're enjoying the series! 日 is usually 平板—do you mind sending me a screenshot? I have a feeling that your dictionary could be displaying にち, rather than 日. I'll be on the lookout for your reply! Incidentally the 新明解アクセント辞典 and the NHKアクセント辞典 are probably the best resources on this topic. Cheers!

Veronika Dubnova

Thank you so much! Your accent is just amazing and I wish I would get there one day. At the moment, though, I cannot hear the difference if I listen to you say only single words or words with particles, thus I cannot produce it. It sounds the same to me. Why is that? How to improve it? English is not my first language, I can hear the English intonation and different British accents, but although my English sounds similar in my head it does not when it comes out. Anyway that is not the point as I am happy with my English, I just want to get the Japanese right from the beginning, any recommendations?

Dogen
>>11295700

Hi Veronika! Can you give me example of a sentence that I said where you weren't able to hear the difference between the word and the word with the particle? I think this might help!

Dan Pinder

This series is great. What about a word like 繰り返す, which the Mac OS Dictionary shows as both ３＆０? What does that mean?

Walt Poor

今日は. I think I am misunderstanding something I think I heard you say. At one point in your introduction to 4-mora nouns I heard, "Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of 4-mora, 2 kanji words are also 平板". Shortly afterward I heard, "And the overwhelming majority of 4-mora, 2 kanji nouns are also 平板". Assuming my ears are not fooling me (or I have not missed your point), it seems that either both of these sentences should say "words", or else both of them should say "nouns". Please explain.

Dogen
>>13615931

Hi Walt. You are correct—I should have said 'the overwhelming majority of 4-mora, 2 kanji NOUNS' in both instances. I apologize for the confusion!

Walt Poor

おはようございます。 いたい and ながい seem to be stand-alone words, so why do we hear iGAITAi rather than iGAiTAi and kiGANAGAi rather than kiGAnaGAi ?

Jacob eikeland

Your use of particles on every standalone word in this episode is confusing. Wouldn’t the particles change depending how they are used in a sentence? if so, why bother adding them into this lesson in the first place. I am a beginner so please excuse me if this is a silly question.

Dogen
>>136369789

Hi, Jacob. JP here, Dōgen's business partner. I'm helping manage the messages here on Patreon. One big reason to include the particle is to help differentiate between heiban and odaka words—both of these start low then go high and stay high, with the particle attaching high on heiban words and attaching low on odaka words. Without the particle these two patterns would essentially sound the same. I hope this helps! —JP

Walt Poor

If I hear Forvo correctly, the pitch patterns for all four pattern names are either 尾高 or 平板. And in fact, an example in the lesson explicitly shows that 平板 is 平板. How about the other pattern names? The 4-mora, 2-kanji rule near the end of the lesson suggests that 頭高 and 中高 are also 平板. Of course, the lesson points out that this "rule" is really just a strong suggestion since there are exceptions. But are 頭高 and 中高 also 平板 in accord with the suggested 4-mora, 2-kanji rule? How about 尾高? Does the combination of the ideas for 3-mora words with the 2-kanji "rule" (reinforced by the second kanji, which appears in 3 of the 4 pattern names) imply that 尾高 is also 平板?

Dogen
>>13790373

Hi Walt. I learned that all of the words are 平板, but none of them are listed in either of the two major pitch-accent dictionaries, so I can't give a definitive answer. That said, it's probably safe to go with 平板. Incidentally, I looked at each word on Forvo, but I only found the words in isolation, which would make it impossible to tell whether or not the words are 尾高 or 平板, as 尾高 and 平板 words only differ in the way that particles attach—did you find some examples that included particles as well? Also, the 4-mora, 2-kanji rule doesn't apply to 頭高 as the word is actually 5 mora (あたまだか). With regards to your last question, the combination of the ideas for 3-mora words and the 2-kanji rule don't work together, as far as I'm aware, so although 尾高 seems to be a 平板 word, I wouldn't be able to figure that out just by looking at the word. I hope this helps! Thank you for your continued support.

Laura Peden

Amazing lesson - lots to learn. Thank you so much!

Mike McCarthy

Hey Dogen, JP. I thought I saw somewhere -- I thought it was at the bottom of the page for each episode (i.e. at the bottom of this page for this episode) -- a transcript of the lesson for downloading. I managed to grasp the four pitch-accent patterns and the terminology watching the first seven episodes, just conceptually without need of taking notes. But for this episode, and I imagine in several of the others that follow, many detailed rules are presented. Without the lesson transcript containing Dogen's statement of the rules presented in the video that I can edit down, it's taking a colossal amount of time transcribing to make notes. Provided it's available, where can I find the transcript of a particular episode such as this one?

Walt Poor

You mentioned "type 2 nouns". Where are the "types" defined?

Dogen
>>13967981

Hi Walt. Sorry for the confusion. When I said 'type 2 nouns' I was referring to 2 kanji 4 mora nakadaka nouns that have the downstep on the second mora, as opposed to the third.

Dogen
>>139388401

Hi, Mike! JP here. At this time we don't have anything like a transcript or a written guide for the series, no. I'll make a point to discuss this with Dōgen. One of Dōgen's main goals in developing the series was to avoid getting into many detailed rules. Where possible, he tried to identify rules that cover the majority of cases—finding the 20% of rules that cover 80% of use cases, in a way. There are a few videos like this one where he wasn't able to give a few simple rules, and instead recommended the learner aim to memorize the content in the lesson, but again these are the minority of the course. Almost all lessons (not this one, unfortunately) contain a wrap-up at the end that goes over the rules covered in that lesson, so you can jump ahead to there go get just the main points in a minute or two instead of watching the whole video. I know this isn't exactly what you were looking for, but I hope it helps!

Trainfan1055

I'm using phrases I made up to memorize these words. アパートのみなさんは失礼から飲み物を与えねぇぜ！ 先生はコーヒーを飲んで弁当を食べた。残念ながら半分だけが残っているから案内ができない。(Makes no sense, but it gets the job done.) 迷惑な挨拶。 どうだい、兄弟！(Phrase from a song)

Walt Poor

Hi. I thought I submitted this question yesterday, but apparently fooled myself. If in fact my question is already in your system, please forgive me for the repetition. In Lesson 7. you strongly recommended the Japanese dictionary in the Apple system; that sounds great, except for those of us who do not have access to Apple PCs. You then suggested a combination of Suzuki-kun and Forvo. I have been using both of them (and another site or two) for awhile, with emphasis on Suzuki-kun because of the ease of use and the pictures of the pitch patterns. However, you warned that Suzuki-kun often gets confused with compounds, and sometimes even with the particles. Among other things, the confusion with particles means that even if Suzuki-kun gets the pitch right for a noun by itself, this does not tell students whether the noun's pattern is 平板 or 尾高. Forvo helps sometimes, but often has no recording of a noun with a particle. Anyway, while working through your lessons I happened to doublecheck some of what I thought I had already learned from Suzuki-kun and Forvo. Please type 毎朝 and 毎朝はinto Suzuki-kun. The site's response for 毎朝 could be either 平板 or 尾高, and the reponse to 毎朝はis obviously 毎朝. However, in this lesson you gave 毎朝 as one of the common 2-kanji, 4-mora 頭高 exceptions to the rule you had just explained. I completely accept your statement that 毎朝 is 頭高: no questions, no reservations, no doubts. So I checked Forvo. The primary entry also sounded like 平板, but a further check found strawberrybrown (your favorite Forvo reader, if she happens to have recorded a word) with 頭高. Quick summary of the problem: -- Many (most??) of us do not have Apples. -- Suzuki-kun seems to be even worse than you mentioned (based on the error with the common, simple word 毎朝). -- Strawberrybrown does not seem to be Forvo's preferred reader. In addition, there are many words for which she made no recording, and many nouns appear on Forvo with no particles. So how can we proceed? Somebody who already knows Japanese much better than I do can probably use a hard copy of an NHK Japanese-Japanese dictionary, but I cannot. And I have not found an online version (which would allow a quick e-search). How can we learn the correct pitch patterns if nothing accessible to many of us is trustworthy? I have tried other sites, but they also seem to have various problems; but if you find one which we can all use and trust, that will be much appreciated.

Dogen
>>14384158

Hi Walt. Suzuki-kun and Forvo definitely have their limitations, but when it comes to individual words I've found that they are both usually correct, perhaps around 80-85 percent of the time, if not greater. Thus, I usually check individual words on both, and only when the two sources do not match do I then use a third source, such as my NHK Dictionary, or the Shinmeikai Dictionary. Incidentally, the overwhelming majority of Japanese to Japanese dictionaries list pitch-accent numbers the same way that the Apple dictionary does (Apple actually uses the スーパー大辞林, which is a popular Japanese dictionary that can be bought independently of computers). Thus, I would highly recommend buying a third resource for pitch-accent. You noted that the NHK Accent dictionary perhaps requires a high level of Japanese, but it actually doesn't—as long as you have a basic understanding of the order of Japanese sounds (あ、か、さ、た、な, etc.) then you'll be able to use it without any trouble. There aren't, unfortunately, digital versions of these resources, as you mentioned, but if you're serious about learning pitch-accent they're definitely the best resources out there!

Chris Cook

Hi! New Patreon here, I recently saw your youtube videos in my recommendations and they got me hooked straight away. Having such native sounding Japanese come from a western person catches you off guard when you first hear it. This is the best $10/month I've spent and I've only been studying your videos for 2 days now. I really appreciate what you are doing and glad I can give back to you. This video is the first one which made me think "Woah there, I'll have to watch this a few times over" due to the information density. Is the density and speed of this video a good indication of the rest of them? I heard about your knee. I hope it can heal without causing too much of a disturbance in your life! I was a gymnast for a number of years and did tricking/parkour on the side, and I too have ruined my knees.

Dogen
>>14659619

Hi Chris! Thrilled to hear that you're getting so much out of the series! And of course, I really appreciate the support! With regards to the density, I think that things get a bit more streamlined (easy to watch) later on in the series; this is a bit difficult to describe but I think you'll understand what I mean as you watch more and more lessons. Knee is doing a little bit better—icing now! haha. Thanks again for the support. Let me know if you ever have any questions or concerns! ^^

Polarwaves

Hi Dōgen. Quick question, do you happen to know if being a native Swedish speaker will help me to easier pick up on Japanese pitch accent? Swedish is, too, a pitch-accent language but I'm not sure if the types of pitch accents in the two languages differ too much.

Dogen
>>149222433

Hi, Polarwaves. JP here, Dōgen's business partner. I'm helping manage the messages here on Patreon. Apologies for not replying to you message sooner; I did not get a notification. In the past I've read that Swedish speakers tend to have an easier time hearing the pitch accent in Japanese. Even if the pitch accent types or patterns don't match, being able to better hear and from that identify the pitch should help you in your studies.

Simar

Hi Dogen, I am able to hear the different pitches during the slow pronunciation but cannot hear any change in pitch during the at normal/fast speed. What should I do to improve this? Also should I be waiting to move on to the next video until I am comfortable with the key point of each lesson or should I work through all the videos at once? I am not sure how to be practicing - currently my Japanese skill is 1 year of consistent duolingo, and was hoping to build a solid foundation through your series as I get more serious with my studies.

Nathan Litvin

Hi, I had a question about 何 ?「なに」 as a two-mora question word: In the video Dogen states that 何 is atamadaka. According to jpdb.io, which is the vocabulary dictionary and SRS I currently use to learn new words, both heiban and atamadaka are shown. (According to OJAD, only atamadaka is listed. ) I don't know the logic of showing multiple accents as this site does, but my hunch was that 何 is always atamadaka specifically when it is used *as* a "question word," as Dogen categorizes it in the video. As in 今日何お食べたい？, Certainly, it's atamadaka in that case. Is JPDB just misrepresenting the accent here, or is there such a use case that makes it heiban? Sorry for the convoluted question.

Dogen
>>150276236

Hi Nathan! I'm not sure about jpdb.io, as I've never used it, but yes it is my understanding that when being used as a question word, 何 is 頭高. It could note 平板 to indicate certain 'compounds' such as 何も, which is pronounced as naNIMO! Incidentally, I think that the お in your 今日何お食べたい should probably be an を. Cheers!

Dogen
>>150217495

Hi, Simar. JP here, Dōgen's business partner. I'm helping manage the messages here on Patreon. Keep practicing! If you can hear the pitch in the slow speech that's the first important step. It can take some learners quite a while to hear the pitch changes even in slow speech. I checked with Dōgen, and he added this: "I would also note that as I talk about in the series, one of the things that happens in rapid, normal speech is that due to speaker emotion and intention pitch-accent can become less pronounced, so that could be contributing to 'not being able to hear it in fast speech'. That said, if you're talking about the fast speech in the native recordings then it's certainly just a matter of time before you start hearing it." As for when to move forward with the lessons, it's good to aim for a good level of comprehension before moving on. If you aim for 100%, you could hit a snag and stop your forward progress. There will be times when you don't understand something until you've had time to digest it, or until you learn something new. Duolingo is an easy tool to use, but from what I have heard sometimes the Japanese in it can be problematic or unnatural and it's hard for me to recommend. You might get better results with a textbook (provided it comes with native audio) or free lessons on YouTube. Then again, if Duolingo helps keep you engaged and studying... as the saying goes: The best tool is the one you use. Regardless of the study method you choose, building an awareness of and ability to reproduce pitch accent early in your studies can only help you sound better and more confident as you move forward. Best of luck in your studies! — JP

Jake

Hi Dogen! How do you suggest practicing and memorizing individual words. My first thought is to make an Anki deck containing the audio and pitch-accent patterns but I'm wondering if it would be better to learn these words in the context of a sentence. Sorry if you've already covered this and I missed it and thanks again for your excellent insight into Japanese phonetics!

Dogen
>>15667696

Hi Jacob! That’s a great approach, and one that I’ve found to work quite well. That said, I’ve found it even more effective to memorize the various rules first, so if you haven’t done so already I would recommend doing so first ^^ hope this helps! Thank you for the support!

thebasedpisces

Hey Dogen! Just became a patron and I have to say, I was immediately impressed by the breadth of topics when looking ahead. After finishing this episode, I knew my money was well spent. I can't wait to keep watching! I have one question though. When you cover 4-mora 中高 nouns (starting 8:55) I couldn't help but notice that the first mora of most of the words, particularly 先生, コーヒー, and 半分, sound like they're at the same pitch as the rest of the word, at least to me. However, the only pattern that starts high and goes low is 頭高, and for that pattern only the first mora is high. So, to me, it seems like those words are only called 中高 because they don’t meet the requirements of an 頭高 word, but still retain a high first mora when spoken (at least, to my ears). I feel like this isn't something I shouldn't worry about too much, but it continues to bug me for some reason. Anyway, I'm excited to learn more!

Dogen
>>23014837

Hi basics! Thank you for the comment--excellent observation. I mention this several time throughout the series, but rises in pitch are always much less dramatic than drops in pitch. This is why drops in pitch are noted as the 'accent' in Japanese. That said, most resources still use binary graphics like this, so I do as well. Thank you for the support and good luck with your future studies!

Uly ___

This is my first week of Japanese self-study. I found your course precisely because there were all these words in the first lesson, but no indication about how to stress them. So I'm your guinea pig. Starting from zero with your course as the first step in my Japanese language journey. So far everything makes a lot of sense and I feel that even though I only know a handful of words and phrases, I'm saying them perfectly))) Thank you for this amazing resource. Uly

Dogen
>>28878030

My pleasure Uly! Thank you for your support and good luck with your future studies!

Jakub

Hey Dogen, Did you ever make a list of the above examples and the ones in episode 9?

Dogen
>>29521403

Hi Jakub! Unfortunately I didn't have enough time to make a list of the examples. Please accept my apologies for the inconvenience!

Tyler Davis

Hi Dogen, Are there times when there are multiple accepted pitch accents for individual words in standard Japanese pronunciation? 自転車 for example, you have as 中高, but my dictionary shows both a [2] and a [0]. Is this a case where either is acceptable for standard Japanese pronunciation, or is the 平板 pronunciation just from a different dialect?

Dogen
>>30699803

Hi Tyler! This is absolutely correct, and I address this in a later lesson!

Konstantin Bitter

Hi Dogen, I know you recommend taking a break from studiying vocab and kanji and focussing on pitch-accents. But once I want to pick up on my vocab again, how would you recommend merging pitch-accent and vocab studies? Did you write down the pattern behind every new word you learned and memorized it? Many thanks.

Dogen
>>30743925

Hi Konstantin! I did with words that I felt would come up in everyday conversation, such as 生徒 (because I was a teacher) and 玉ねぎ, but not for advanced words that I essentially only memorized to pass N1, such as 憤り or 銀河系. Hope that this helps! Cheers!

Michael Rowell

Hey Dogen, I was going through my notebook and saw 自転車 in the 中高２ category. According to Suzuki, it's heiban. Don't know if that's a limitation there or what. Just thought I'd bring it to your attention

Dogen
>>32177940

Hi Michael, this is an example of a word that has multiple pitch-accent patterns; it's acceptable to pronounce 自転車 either way. Cheers!

Axel Hooper

Great stuff! Thanks a lot!

Jeff Bernstein

Here are all the examples in the video: 1 mora nouns 頭高: 目が痛い, 手が痛い, 歯が痛い, 火が強い, 木が高い 平板: 胃が痛い, 日が出る, 気が長い 2 mora nouns 平板: この日, これは, その日, それは, あの日, あれは, ここの, そこの, 口が, 鼻が, 首が 尾高: 髪が, 耳が, 胸が, 腹が, 指が, 足が 頭高: 肩が, 喉が, どこが, どれが, どうか, 何が, なぜか, 誰が 3 mora nouns 中高: すこしは, 一人は, 一つは, 五つは, 昨日は, 匂いは, あなたは 尾高: 明日は, 言葉は, 二人は, 二つは, 三つは, 四つは, みんなは, 男は, 女は 頭高: ご飯は, 午前は, 家族は, 眼鏡は, 景色は, 荷物は, 電気は, 天気は, 元気な, どなたの, どんなの, どちらの 4 mora nouns 平板: 学校が, 銀行が, 最低の, 最悪な, 最高の, 平板の, 勉強を, 心配は 頭高: 音楽は, 挨拶は, 迷惑は, 毎日は, 毎朝は, 毎晩は 中高: 先生は, コーヒーは, 半分は, 案内は, 一昨日は 中高２: 土曜日の, 火曜日の, 一番は, 自転車は, 自動車は, アパートは, 失礼な, 飲み物は 尾高: 妹は, 弟は

Dogen
>>3248031

Thank you for the initiative Jeff, really appreciate it. I'm sure a lot of people will benefit from this! Your support means a lot!

Chase Kolozsy

I learned about this series from Jalup.com, and got really excited and decided to join. I look forward to more videos!

Dogen
>>3256218

Thank you very much Chase, really appreciate your support! I'm creeping closer to career transition goal; if you know anyone else who is studying Japanese that might be interested please let them know—a career transition would be massive for lesson output!

Timothy Chambers

Excellent video, packed full of useful and clearly explained information. Must admit I was slightly disappointed that there was no big psych-up super saiyan transformation clip before the 4-mora Heiban reveal. Anyway, my poor braincase is overflowing, so it's time for a few rewatches!

Dogen
>>3276382

Thank you! haha yes it's a shame that everything besides 4-mora are quite difficult to memorize, which is why I presented them in the video in special groups, such as body parts, and phonetic equivalents. Good luck with the studies and thanks again! :D

Jeff Bernstein

Hey Dogen! Quick question: is there one resource that I should trust over another when it comes to the pitch accent of specific words? For example, if a word is 3/2 in 大辞林 (I've been told that pitch accent is shown in order of how common it is? -- so 3 is most common, then 2) and 2/3 in something like the NHK accent dictionary, which one should I memorize? I've started checking the NHK accent dictionary app when the forvo files for a word seem to disagree with the pitch in 大辞林 and noticed that sometimes 大辞林 and NHK are different.

Ryan

Hi Dogen, new patron here so I apologize if this question is answered later in the series. I've noticed in recordings from Jisho.org, Forvo, etc. that when native speakers pronounce words in the 平板 pattern, many of words fall in pitch just slightly on the last mora. Upon my first listening to these words I usually think that they're in the 中高 pattern, though I now realize there's a more dramatic downstep in words that are actually 中高. I'm still practicing distinguishing between the two. In contrast, I notice that in your videos you consistently and very cleanly maintain the same pitch throughout 平板 words. Do you have any insight on this slight downstep? Is it common for native speakers, or is it possibly an artifact of recording single words?

Dogen
>>33298226

Hi Ryan, thanks for the comment! I actually plan on addressing this in the next episode (not the one that comes out today, but the one after that), do you think you could wait until then? To make a long story short this is normal and natural, but it's much less dramatic than normal down steps, as you mentioned. Cheers!

Abel Toy

Hi Dogen! Really good video overall, very helpful! If there's one suggestion though, could you try going a tad more slower in the pronounciation parts, so we can more easily follow along?

Dogen
>>3339084

Abel, I will keep this in mind. Thank you for your feedback! Scripting the next lesson right now, expecting to release Monday :)

Dogen
>>3307127

Hi Jeff. Both of these are very reputable resources so I don't believe there to be a wrong answer. When it comes to words that have multiple pitch accent patterns I tend to pick the one that is easiest / most natural for me to say. For example, 類 is 0 / 3 in my mac dictionary, but 1 / 2 / 0 in the shinmeikai dictionary. 1 happens to be listed first, but I would still use it even if it was listed last, as I have the easiest time with 頭高. Hope this helps!

Alex Johnson

Hi Dogen, new Patron here. Loving the series so far. Thank you for all you have done and continue to do. Just a quick (possibly dumb) question: for the examples you use that contain particles (mostly は in this vid) would you just use the same pronunciation regardless of if it were の、へ、に、を、etc? Also, living here in Kyoto I notice lots of times people just drop the particle (or say it softly). For me I'm trying to be as formal as I can now so I learn it before dropping anything. People already look at me like I'm from another planet when I open my mouth to say much of anything (full disclosure, I'm a middle-age American dude). But usually they smile and are very supportive. Thanks again! ~Alex

Dogen
>>33554518

Hi Alex! Yes, this is correct, although there are just a handful of exceptions with の, but I talk about these later in detail—don't worry about these for now and just treat all the particles the same. I would also encourage you to keep doing what you're currently doing—best to use particles and practice while still learning the basics! Cheers!

Christopher Unger

Hi Dogen, I'm loving this series so far! Saw a few of your sketches on Youtube, had some good laughs and eventually wound up here. I appreciate your table above listing your examples - my only thought is: given this is (unavoidably) presented as a list of somewhat random things to memorize, how about adding just a few more words to make it feel a bit more complete? I had to look the following up in Suzuki-Kun: 　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　2 mora nouns：平板：こう、そう　　　頭高：ああ　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　3 mora nouns：平板：あそこ　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　How about further days of the week / numbers past 5? I find it often helps to memorize a complete set of words so it can feel a bit less random, but then again you have to draw the line somewhere in a short video episode. Again, love the channel - thanks for all your hard work teaching!

Dogen
>>36567835

Thank you very much for the support Christopher! Unfortunately, because—as you mentioned—I need to draw the line somewhere, I won’t be including anything else in the table, and also because I think it would be odd if I had things in the table that were not included in the lesson (I personally know that I would find that confusing). That said, while I don’t cover こう、そう、ああ in future lessons (these are actually all 平板, the ああ that Suzuki-kun gave you was a different word), I do cover numbers extensively later on in the series (during the advanced pitch-accent sub-series). Days of the week are all 中高 with a downstep on the よ, as in niCHIYOubi. Thanks for the understanding!

Josh OConnor

Hey Dogen, really loving the phonetics series so far, but after this episode I came to realize that I don't have a really large vocabulary! So I was wondering if I should stop here and get a more extensive vocabulary and gain more knowledge on grammar before continuing, or if I should supplement my grammar and vocabulary studies with the phonetics series and keep going through the series? I do want to have a native-like accent, but I also want to be able to speak in coherent sentences. What would you suggest? Thanks a lot! Keep putting out this great stuff!

Dogen
>>36868234

Hi Connor! Great question. I would recommend taking a break from phonetics and doing a mass immersion based approach (as talked about by MattvsJapan) for several months (maybe up to six, depending on how much you already know), with a focus on listening and input. If you come back to phonetics after this I doubt you'll have developed too many hard to fix bad habits. Cheers! Here's a link to Matt's page: https://www.patreon.com/massimmersionapproach

Alexander Kirko

This is great! I've been studying Japanese vocabulary with pitch-accents for years now, but I still forget and use (badly) a random pattern when in doubt. This will allow me to guess better.

Jordan Oxborough

Extremely helpful. I really like the pace with no wasted time.

Dogen
>>3801589

Thank you very much Jordan. Very glad to hear you're getting a lot out of the lessons! ^^ Please contact me if you ever have any questions :D

Max Graze

I started recording myself, but I’m a little confused on how to analyze my speech. Do you have any tips? Thanks!

Dogen
>>39972266

Hi Max—sorry for not clarifying this in more detail. Often times people who have never recorded themselves at all can pick up a few things wrong with their speech just by trying the exercise, but if you're not picking up anything just yet then I would encourage you to put off the self-analysis just a bit. As you work your way through the series and become more and more accustomed to picking up on the various pitch-patterns in everyday speech, you'll then be able to leverage this knowledge to analyze your own speech. If you're just getting started and are still getting used to the four pitch-accent patterns it can be understandable to not hear too many mistakes just yet—keep up your active listening and in time you'll develop the ability to find errors in your own speech. Hope this helps! Cheers!

Rebel Scoozy

Hey Dogen. I just started your video series and it's amazing so far. I had a quick question though. About how long do you suggest we take to comprehend the information in each video before we move on to the next one? I know people learn stuff at different paces. But how long would you personally work with each lesson? I want to try and prevent myself from moving too fast, but not too slow either. Thanks in advance

Georg Langeder

I can't seem to find Episode 7... can someone send a link or so?

Daniel

Dude! Sick...absolutely digging the lessons. I'm also at the UW. I'm in the ling department. I know you probably didn't cover it because it doesn't really apply to most people, but do you know what the phonological application is that is causing these nouns to be attracted to a certain pattern? Thanks for putting these lessons together!

Dogen
>>4289628

Thanks for the comment Daniel! Hope I answer what your asking here but... Short answer is that many Chinese loans words follow one type of pattern, due to the phonetics of Chinese, and the way these words assimilated into Japanese, vs. Japanese words, which usually follow a different set of patterns. In other words, the phonetics are often related to the origin of the word. Does this answer your question?

Brett Hummell

Omg...How have I been saying 先生 wrong for this long...

Simon Hauser

Hi Dogen I don't find your Intagram page you mentioned in the video, so could you tell me what your Instaname is?

Dogen
>>44577994

Hi Simon—I'm terribly sorry about this but I've since stopped using instagram as I became very busy after my daughters were born, and the account essentially became stagnant. That said, this is something I intend on starting again soon, as I'll be hiring someone to help me with various tasks in the near future. Again sorry for the misunderstanding!

Swastika Jajoo

Hi Dogen! I was wondering if you have a consolidated list somewhere of the words that you introduce in this video? (I should probably rewatch it a couple times and make notes, but asking just in case!)

Dogen
>>45218762

Hi Swastika! Unfortunately I do not have a consolidated list of all the words in the video. Apologies for the troubles!

Kevin Le

Hi Dogen, how should I consider honorific versions of words? For example, べんきょう is heiban but what about ごべんきょう? or げんき to おげんき, or すし to おすし？

Dogen
>>4549333

Hey Kevin. this is too complicated to answer in a single comment, but I hope the following helps! For 1-2 mora words there are no really useful rules suSHI (odaka) becomes oSUshi (nakadaka), but this is an exception to one of the more common rules. For 3-4 mora words, most words that are atamadaka or heiban stay retain their accent patterns (the addition of an o / go does not change the accent for the word). this is true for both 勉強・お勉強 and 元気・お元気 hope this helps!

Robert Klevens

Hi Dogen, I was wondering if similar words like my name ロバート and デパート and アパート are all 中高型？Thank you

Suttohh

Hi Dogen, I have more of a curiosity question as opposed to a technical one. As you've mentioned until now, pitch accent perception deteriorates with age, and bad habits are difficult to undo. Unfortunately I've put these lessons off until now, and have learned a few thousand words at the age of 23. I was just wondering what age you were when you picked up your intense phonetics study and if 23 will be a serious barrier or not moving forward?

Dogen
>>58196948

Hi Suttohh! I started studying phonetics around 20, but didn't really start studying it harder until I was maybe 21 or 22. If you're 23 you'll most likely have a more difficult time than someone who is 13 or younger, but this doesn't mean that your effort will be in vain, it just means that you'll probably have to put in a bit more effort. I've found that when combining the important rules of this series with constant native input you can quickly correct many common pitch-accent mistakes, though you'll probably still have some words that you never can seem to remember (I still have many haha). Again, it will be a barrier, but I don't think it will be a serious one if you study seriously. Cheers!

Marksman

Hey Dogen, I was just a bit curious as to how easy you think it is for someone at my age (15) to learn this stuff. That is to say, is it significantly easier to learn at this age than, for example, waiting till my 20's? Thanks!

Dogen
>>61135142

Hi Marksman! I don't think there is a terribly big difference between 15 and 20 (though I imagine the difference between 10 and 15 is fairly significant). That said, I do think that even a small difference is enough to warrant studying phonetics sooner than later. Cheers!

Carson Render

Why do 中高 words like いたい in 胃が痛い not have the initial change in pitch like usual (LHL) but instead attach high? (HHL) is there a lesson on this?

Carson Render
>>62583539

Oh sorry, I think I found it. I think this is covered in lesson 25 for anyone who might be wondering.

Kyle

Hey Dogen, I had a question that I've been trying to figure out for a while now. (I'll use the 新辞典 notation for accents) You talked about how この￣ is 平板 so このひ￣ is also 平板 (the 日 attaches high). This makes sense and I see this pattern in a lot of nouns that attach to この. However, when attaching 人, it’s commonly pronounced as この＼ひと, making この 尾高 instead of 平板 as before. I found some 知恵袋 posts (<a href="https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1439106424" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">link</a>) that say 標準語 has two acceptable versions (この＼ひとは and このひと＼は); the second is what I would expect from the rule (平板 until the 尾高 downstep after ひと), but the first is what sounds most natural to me yet doesn’t match up with the rule. At first, I thought it could be something to do with the unvoiced ひ in ひと, but I realized this same irregular downstep occurs in この子 so that theory’s out. Do you know of an explanation for this? Thanks!

Ayumi

hi, amazing lesson, i just have a quick question. As 補足説明 you wrote that naNIMONAi is 平板, but isnt it maybe 中高 as the i is low pitched or have i not understood well perhaps?? Thank you for these lessons i subbed yesterday finally after wanting to do it for 2 years and im blown away :)

Dogen
>>63237465

Hi Ayumi! Thanks for the question, and sorry for the wording. To clarify, the 何も as in 'nothing' is 平板, but the entire statement, 何もない or 'there is nothing' is 中高, as you pointed out. Sorry again for this, and thanks!

Ayumi

Not at all thank you for the clarification and a fast reply!!

Dogen
>>6311574

Hi Kyle, Thanks for the great question. This one is quite tricky! There are indeed two version, A, which is a combination of the two separate words この and 人 and B, which is it's own compound (which is why it will show up as a single entry in certain Japanese-Japanese dictionaries). Rather than simply meaning 'this person', the compound implies there is a relationship of some degree with the speaker. In other words: この人　＝　koNOHITO HA = This person (objective) 此の人　＝　koNOhito = This person, who I know / who is close to me Hope this answers your question!

Rei

Dogen先生, I am a little confused about 平板. From my observation so far watching your videos, when a 平板 word is said in isolation, there is often a bit of an "upstep" on the second mori. But, when I looked up the word 栄光 for one of my Anki cards (according to the dictionary it is 平板), it seemed like the Japanese speakers on Forvo were saying it as though it was 頭高 (or, at the very least, the second mori drops a bit rather than rises). Is this a pretty frequent phenomenon that I just need to pay attention for each individual word, or is there something I am missing here? Thanks so much for your series, it is already helping me so much pick up on pitch accent when I am listening to Japanese! Now just to get to the point where I can replicate them...

Dogen
>>63512049

Hi Rei, I think in your circumstance you're still getting used to hearing how the 平板 pattern sounds, especially as opposed to the 頭高 or 中高 patterns. For example, if you try listening to the same speaker 'Kaoring' say the word 経済, an 頭高 word, then listen to the recording of 栄光 and go back to back, you should notice that there is a definite difference between the two, and that 経済 has a very pronounced down step, while 栄光 is more or less flat, though it may exhibit some minor changes in pitch. Again, I think in your case you're still just getting used to hearing and identifying the four patterns as they are realistically said in everyday speech, and I think that if you come back after another two weeks of active listening and pitch-accent studies, that this won't be an issue anymore. Just as a reminder, 平板 words usually exhibit a very slight upstep in very careful laboratory settings and in pitch-accent graphics, but in actual speech, they are more or less flat. I hope that this helps—best of luck with your future studies!

Thom

Hey there! for other Patreons I made a flashcard set for this episode using quizlet if anyones interested. I recorded myself saying the words and my Japanese girlfriend say that the recordings are acceptable. But let me know if theres something not quite right about them. - <a href="https://quizlet.com/_3l2899" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://quizlet.com/_3l2899</a>

Brodie Port

When I look up 銀行 in the NHK pitch accent dictionary it's pronounced with a falling pitch like ginn\kou (the kou is lower). Same with Forvo and google translate. Why is that? Does it change when there's a particle attached?

Jai

4-mora 2-kanji nouns are usually heiban - do the kanji have to be 2 morae each to fall into this category? If one was 1 mora and the other 3, would the word still have that very high chance of being heiban, or just the decently high chance that 4 mora nouns in general do?

TheThumbPuppy

Information overload. Wash. Rinse. Repeat : 0)

Dogen
>>76086460

I explicitly learned this as a rule with the two kanji being two mora each, so stick to that when thinking of this rule. I can't really comment to any other variations like 3+1 or 1+3. I can't really think of any words that fit that pattern off the top of my head.

Stephen Leung

Hi Dogen, I have a questions regarding 僕は。 From pitch accent dictionary 僕 is 頭高 so it's should be high-low-low. But since learning that I've heard so it many times being pronounced low-high-high, even in 標準語. (I understand in kansai-dialect low-high-high is standard) Is there a method to the madness? like the は being used for emphasis or something? or personal preference? Thanks in advance :)

Kate Rose

Hi! Can i ask, why いたい has different pitch at first syllable after eye and stomach? If particle after previous word is high, syllable from the next word is also high?

Metatron
>>67825215

I just checked it on google translate, it’s definitely heiban, not pronounced like you say. Dogen will be able to explain this much better but I think you probably still focus on the length of the final “ko” and mistake that for a Downstep. It most definitely isn’t atamadaka.

Mike Chung

I have to be honest this lesson felt a little overwhelming. I'll have to re-watch this and hopefully in the future I can return to this lesson once again and feel like I've made progress lol. Thank you for the time and effort put into these lessons!

Monika Ciegowski

i just started to watch these lesson videos. they are made very good. But the repeat section is to fast for me. maybe you already did in later videos, but could you leave more time space between the words?

Dogen
>>8636998

Hi Monika, Thank you for the feedback. I believe that the speed of the repeat section has been fairly consistent through the later episodes as well, unfortunately. I will try to keep this in mind going forward, however! Thank you for your support!

Aidan Morrison

Hi Dogen, thank you so much for this eye opening series ^^ Just became a patron the other day, so I apologize if this has already been brought up. Have you considered providing "lesson notes" for each episode (summarizing main points, list of vocab covered etc.)? This would make reviewing the material faster and I would be willing to pay more if such a service were offered.

Dogen
>>8754764

Hi Aidan, Thanks for the support and the question. There aren’t currently written lesson notes, but starting around lesson 12 or so (currently away from my computer so can’t confirm atm) I provide wrap-ups at the end of every video. Additionally, lesson 30 is a cheat sheet style video that summarizes all the series’ important points. Will consider doing a written version as well!

Vincent K
>>81186382

Also noticed this! Is there perhaps simply an error in the graphic?

Dogen
>>79391038

Hi, Stephen. JP here, Dōgen's business partner. I'm helping manage the messages here on Patreon. My apologies for the late reply! We had a similar question about 僕 and 俺 elsewhere, and I think Dōgen's reply addresses your question here as well: "I think this comes down to speaker variation, at least when it comes to 僕. That said, I personally always pronounce it with the 頭高 pattern, and would recommend you do the same if you're feeling lost. With regards to 俺, NHK lists it as 平板 and I've always used this pronunciation as well." I hope this helps! — JP

Anthony Ha

Hey Dogen, just got to this video and I have a question. I'm starting to study Japanese through an app called Lingodeer and just learned about この. There is an example sentence この雑誌は田中さんのです。I know from this video that この is 平板 and I know that 雑誌 is also 平板. However, when they pronounce the example, they say it like koNOZASSHI. Can you explain why zasshi becomes all high pitched? Or point me to a video where I can learn it? Thanks!

Judith Ricken

Hey Dogen, thank you very much for all your helpful material. I'm not sure whether someone has already posted this question, but my teacher pointed out to me, that I have a problem distinguishing long vowel from short ones. I say long vowels too long and sometimes even short vowels long. I have noticed myself that I can't hear the difference between e.g. ゆき and ゆうき. The teacher then often points out that apparently the rythm of the word "is totally different" but to me it sounds the same. Do you have any suggestions for this problem? That would be great!

Dogen
>>9750936

Hi Judith. Thanks for signing up! Really appreciate it. I'm actually scripting the vowel lesson right now, and will be long vowels in the following lesson. That said, I think this could be a vocal placement issue. Have you watched episode 34? Here I explain how Japanese vowels are usually said with a higher pitch and less resonance than their English counterparts. This distinction alone can make a big difference when it comes to length. Here's the link for lesson 34: Hope it helps! <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-16410747">https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-16410747</a>

Sophia Herron

Hi Dogen--a quick, probably silly question. On どなたの, is there a just a slight stress on た, or does the pitch raise very slightly before coming back down? I'm pretty sure I'm just hearing the stress and my brain is interpreting it as a rise, but when I keep my voice very flat, it sounds wrong when I playback a recording, and I don't trust myself both ways. Thanks in advance!

Dogen
>>9931185

Hi Sophie, No worries! All the literature I have indicates that there shouldn't be any stress or rises in pitch on the た in どなたの, just on the first mora, as it's an 頭高 word. Hope this helps!