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AMA Stream #62b [Monday @ 5pm ET] (Patreon)

Published:
2025-06-07 15:55:31
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

Hi all,

Here's the link for the second part of the AMA livestream. The stream will begin at 5pm ET on Monday (June 9) and will likely run for 4+ hours. The replay will remain linked here—most patrons just watch the replay, so don't worry about missing it live! As usual, I will answer questions from the comments on a separate post (from last month) for $15+ Patrons.

Looking forward to chatting!

–Natalie

Files

ContraPoints Patreon AMA Stream #62b

Comments

Cranial Embiggening

Thank you so much for the advance notice this time! It really helps make sure we can actually make it. Excited and looking forward to it as always!

Ted(dy)

Yayyy finally one I won’t forget to watch live

Anthony Behnke

The one Monday I’m not working! Perfect! 🙂

George White

What do you think will happen to TERF celebrities who have lost it (eg Linehan, Rowling etc) when trans win 'the gender wars'. Linehan is already retconning his theory. He used to always says it was a cabal of men, that it was a men's rights situation. But now he's blaming cis women for the existence of trans people. That it is women's fault for allowing 'men' into places. He says it is an unpopular opinion compared to the MRA bunkum of his contemporaries... do we expect more retconning of trans conspiracy canons as things grow...

Darren DM

It's nice to have AMAs back. But with this AND a Tangent, I'm feeling very spoiled.

Aderyn Albarelli

Oh, sweet! I thought I missed it, because I just woke up Oh shit, it's on Monday, I'm gonna miss it 😞 Hope ya have a good weekend!

Marco

yay

Jae Jane

A stream on my birthday 😍 I’m the luckiest 🍀

Laura-Lee Crifasi

beautiful after work treat for the east coasters

Rae

I’m high af did it start yet?

Nikko

No

Rae

Thank you friend

M

Delighted to catch you live, love from Paris xoxo

Rae

I loved Daddy Politics so much. The whole country has daddy issues too huh 🤔

Olson Cannon

west coaster here, took off early from work just for this 😆

rk

I really need to join the tier where one can ask questions! I’d love to know why you love the aesthetics of the 17th century so much (if I’m remembering the correct period).

rk

Lester Young is more my vibe for jazz sax, but for sure Coltrane is a genius 😀

Abi

I’m being parasocial here, so apologies for that. I just want you to know that it’s okay to do whatever you need to do to keep yourself safe. For every loud person who would openly resent you for leaving when they can’t, there are many more quiet people who would just want you to be safe and want to know that you’re okay, wherever you end up. You’ve had a huge impact on the leftist community, and many people look to you as a source of solidarity; I know I do. Also, for what it’s worth, my friends and I totally understood the point of Tabby. You made the point about the drawbacks of “waiting for the rapture” in one of your earliest Tabby videos, and it helped me stop romanticizing sudden political upheaval and see things from a more realistic, democratic point of view.

highclass_lady

Congrats on completing the AMA Natalie! Also, in case you're looking for something to watch, 2 YouTube video essays you might like which talk about music & creating art are: Why is 'Canon in D' so Popular? by the channel GuweiMusic & How the world's biggest song caused Gotye to quit by the channel David Hartley I think you'd enjoy those! Have a good night Natalie! You did a wonderful job!

Aderyn Albarelli

It might sound weird coming from an internet stranger but, I'm proud of you for trying to be well, even when it's difficult. I'm gonna try, too! I look forward to hearing what you play, when you feel the eroticism of the keys, once more 😌.

fa

motherrr loved the stream loved ur response and please take care but also keep in mind that if you’re doing bad and not feeling up for it you can just postpone the stream 🙏🏻 thankfully this isn’t a 9-5 you’re your own boss and trust me we’ll get it if it’s a bad day for you. sending lots of parasocial support!!!

charlie

Not to be the nagging bitch wife mother or whatever but u really should get off twitter girl. At least for me increasing twitter usage is usually predictive of declining mental health. But you probably know this already so idk. Love the ama's !!!

Jussi Eskelinen

AFAIK, Freemasons have a code of honour that e.g. prevents a Freemason from testifying against another Freemason in court. Plenty of Freemasons are major business owners or otherwise in positions of power. So no, they're not all that innocent.

Ann C

I didn't end up watching the iivestream, and now I regret it because I keep wanting to join the conversation. I'm up to the point where Natalie explains that in the conspiracy theory video, the opening, which features several people, was all her. I assumed she brought friends in to help her. Very convincing!

Rose Dombegh

"Why did the U.S. turn into a democracy after a revolution?" as a random person on the internet, I think it was because the colonies already really governed themselves. They were revolting against a far-away power that basically only had nominal control (of course British troops were housed in the colonies etc. but many colonies already had their own elected officials, constitutions, etc.) So it didn't REALLY overthrow the government/destabilize the social fabric ... it just freed an existing set of local governments, which were basically already self-sufficient, from a far-away government. And democracy was already familiar/popular among some of the colonies, so it wasn't a completely new way of doing things.

Rose Dombegh

I think it also helped maintain stability afterwards that the British nobility didn't live in America ... they didn't need to be guillotined, and American society didn't have to live with the aftermath of guillotining people

Rose Dombegh

Also just FYI I am not a revolutionary leftist, but I too love Tabby. She's very fluffy and loveable in all her delusions

Rose Dombegh

Ok really last thing, Jonathon Haidt's book "The Righteous Mind" has interesting thoughts about the link between liberal aesthetics, college education, culture war, politics, etc.

Ian Albert

Perhaps small comfort, but it helps to hear I am not the only one struggling since the election. Sometimes it can feel that way because life demands we continue dealing with life stuff, and it can be easy to fall for the illusion that everybody else is doing fine and that we are uniquely affected. So, I don't know... thank you for being honest about having a tough time, about not being productive, falling into bad habits, etc. I am both heart broken to hear of your difficulties and a bit less alone to know it's not just me. Thanks for your marathon AMA last night. Always enlightening.

misslcd

The Daddy Politics tangent and this stream have resonated with my cynically resigned feelings about voting as a progressive left-leaning Scottish voter living in a Conservative area. I have always had to vote tactically, just going for the party most likely to beat the Conservatives. I'm 36, and literally once in my life I've voted and seen that party keep the Tories out of my constituency. It's something I do out of duty, because I know it's important to vote, but there is never euphoria involved, just hoping for the least-worst outcome and usually being disappointed.

Filip Åsberg Montgomery

I would argue Switzerland is the japan of europe, aestheticslly and culturally (and this is coming from a swede/swiss). All three have similar design aesthetics and philisophies, but japan and Switzerland are much more dilligent/organized/meticulous (f*scist in ither words)

run_away

It's not alright But it's okay We're gonna make it anyway

Chazie

Omg my Pokémon go buddy is also shiny Espeon... his name is Zeal

a. j. archer

thanks for the pep talk ~hr 3 i needed that

Woke's back on the menu boys(gender neutral)

Hard agree on cilantro. I told my family one time that it tastes like soap to me and to this day they're like "ooh no soap herb for you right? harhar". And Im like no no I like that soapy herb alot actually.

Thomas Kerr

Natalie, I’m loving how unfiltered you are here. Really appreciate what you shared about music at the start. I study music in college in Dublin.

Melanie De Nolf

Finally someone willing to speak the truth about cilantro

queertheoryxyz

Honestly Hilary should be your next main channel video topic lol

James

Very much agree about that stanza from the Auden poem. I feel like it’s the journey of optimistic enlightenment skepticism to realist psychoanalysis. As I get older your videos make me dwell on aspects of the human condition that seem innate to us in a way that I would have struggled to accept when I believed politics could sustainably suppress the will to power.

holdorz

It was very interesting to hear your thoughts on trans women in sports! Thank you Natalie:)

nekomusumeninaritai

Rose Dombaugh's comment touched on this too, but not all Tabby fans are far left “anti-electoralists”. You, no doubt, know your audience quite well, but I still consider myself a left-wing liberal (if that is not a contradiction) who first learned about your channel from your interview with Ezra Klein, and my partiality to Tabby did not radicalize me (beyond shaming me for complacency towards injustice that I have not yet overcome).

Abigail W

If it’s not too late, I would highly encourage you to respond to Dropout’s outreach. You’d be perfect for their show SmartyPants.

Ale Kenward

I understand your frustration with "the left". In Mexico, we call it "the real " left, who keep criticizing the leftist government for not being perfect, for being pragmatic, for not enacting the socialist revolution in 6 years. But as you say, people who only post things never had to deal with people with actual power being against them, and people they are trying to organize not agreeing with them. Many in that left are followers of the Zapatista Army, and they hold that type of organization as the peak leftism and purity. But Zapatista communities expel those who disagree, they are an army. They are not supposed to work with a diversity of people who disagree with them, because that is not how armies work. I always say, until you have to organise your coop to do something, you realise that politics is always messy and even if you try to uphold all your principles, you will have to compromise in order to actually achieve something.

synthesis

the herb question made me think of that nicki minaj clip where someone asks her if she likes baked beans and she goes, “do I like baked beans??? Girl what happened que pasoooo”

Rose Dombegh

I was amazed that she just quoted those lines off the top of her head. I'm a big Auden fan and almost squealed out loud. Natalie makes me feel seen not as a queer person but as a humanities nerd.

Ben Shapiro

i have never laughed so hard at someone thinking about herbs in silence for several minutes with copious seriousness

Pee She-Her Man

I was lucky enough to leave the US in January, and I got a good job and visa in Vienna, Austria. I of course knew how terrible things were in the US while I was living there, but it didn't really come into focus until I came to a functioning civilization how rotted the US has become.

run_away

Hi natalie, in case you happen to see this, you might want to go look at the comments in the November 2024 New Plan: November Tangent post. Weird stuff is going on in that comment section.

joshua

your next video has to include an explanation of the Elektra chord just to one up the Tristan chord normies

joshua

if no one else knew this reference, at least i did. thank you.

joshua

In terms of the whole originality in art, I think there is too much of a preoccupation with being seen as "derivative" that I think is detrimental to developing a craft and finding your own identifiable style. I am a singer and I was worried for a long time that I was just adopting my favorite singers phrasing choices, etc. But, the thing is, it's actually a good idea to try to imitate people who are actually good at what they do! Successful imitation of good art shows that you've developed a skillset to make good art yourself. My music improv/Jazz band director in college told us one time that "stealing is a eurocentric concept", and, yeah, I do think that's a little overly simplistic, but there is some truth to that! We have literally enshrined in our laws that an idea, a figment of our human imagination, can be "owned" by a specific person, which is a really silly idea on its face. Mfs across the globe were all basically inventing the same instruments with complete cultural isolation from one culture to the next, and somehow europeans, the japanese, native americans, etc. made string instruments or drums or flutes, etc. without even knowing others existed. That's because we're humans who are very like-minded regardless of our background, and that is the unifying human experience, so it would be silly to think that someone would "own" the concept of anything of those things, when, just by the nature of human consciousness, someone probably thought about it already anyways! Jazz musicians are gonna have a more communal notion around art in general, as much of band music before IP laws really took hold, but I really do think we need to be thinking about art the way we do with science, that we are contributing and building upon a collective body of work. No one should be able to own any idea. Focus on developing a skill set. Just keeping doing more, and more, and even more. It's okay to be derivative at first. It's okay to wear your influences on your sleeves. Knowing what is "good taste" necessitates you knowing what everyone else has done. Feel free to borrow ideas. Take in as much as you can, and the originality will come in time, as long as you're critical of your work and can acknowledge what needs improvement. The most unique and subversive thing you can do in society today is to develop craftsmanship. In a world where everyone is being driven into wage labor and so much focus is being removed from the humanities, people who do art 5/6ths of the time just fucking suck at it. Being good at what you do is the ultimate subversion, and you can only know what is good and how to get good by observing it and imitating it. "Being human and being aware what human nature can be like, we trust that people will learn to walk the only way it is possible for them to learn: by walking." - Isaac Puente

Rose Dombegh

what things have you seen with fresh eyes? (asking bc its a deluge here & I'm curious what most stands out)

mistine

My bday too! Happy birthday to us!!!

Andrew May

“delicious soap”

Paula

+1 on that, there's a bunch of spam posts and also a user imitating natalie

Nuno Bento

SO... Nomad visa, trans health, being resented both in the country you're leaving and the one you'd be going to... If we don't go to shit here (which we are), welcome to Portugal!

Jon Stewart

I fucking love Tabby! As in, I love the on point satire and frequently send Tabby clips when I want to take the piss out of the far left. Bring back Tabby, but harsher.

yaoibunga

i am a long-time patron and have been following you since nearly the beginning but i wish you wouldn't post all this contrarian radlib stuff on twitter :') :') it does you no credit—either you attempt to make a nuanced point without having the space to actually make the point or you come off as glib and a bit... naive? it just doesn't seem like a good use of your time or effort to defend israel and critique people to your left. :') i'm not trying to be hyperbolic or histrionic or anything, i'm not trying to Call You Out or In or Anywhere. just feel like it's worth pointing out (here, where you can see that i've been giving you a very tiny sum of money for many years) that it is probably not good for you or for anyone else... at the very least it ain't good for your fans. ok sorry thank u luv u bye

Julie

I just want to tell you that you make the world better.

Najeeb Khadim

I had always got the impression people liked Tabby because she's a funny character. I don't know people posting about going fully tabby were drawing up battle plans

Cole

I would never have thought to ask the universe for Natalie Wynn to sing AfroMan's "Because I Got High" on stream, but blyat dayum did that put a smile on my face like few things in this current hellscape have managed to

Cole

I'm 100% a shitlib who votes for, volunteers for, and even donates to mainstream Democrats, AND I still love Tabby and absolutely would have posted something like "time to go full Tabby" after the 2024 election as a cope. I'm fully aware that Tabby's revolution is a fantasy but sometimes that fantasy helps get me through the day when the news is so horrific. Just so you know some of your fans who post things like that aren't actually radical Marxist-Leninists and your creation of Tabby didn't radicalize us, it gave us a fantasy outlet to keep us from going mad!

william kirkpatrick

I am at 4:44:26 20second break, sip of black rum. LOVE THIS LOVE THIS.....I am a pianist and I feel so lit-on-fire by hearing Natalie's description of how she struggled....I don't even think talent exists. You just spend a few years with one good teacher....and then HELL-TORTURE-DESPAIR for hours and hours and you get something good recorded somehow, that you consider boring but everybody likes it. I am forcing myself to learn the Bach-Busoni Chorale Prelude 4 in g major, the one with the the bitchin' background 16th notes all the way through

cora

nights when i can't sleep and i notice the stream is on it's like a snow day where i don't have to go to worry and rumination school

Alex F

Wait Natalie you HAVE to go on DropOut! It's not a crummy little YouTube wannabe and a lot of your audience watches their stuff!

stick by stick

Prefacing this by saying I am a huge fan of gamechanger: the only creators I pay for are Contrapoints and Dropout...no netflix, etc. All that being said, as much as I love content from both, I don't know if a crossover between the two makes any sense. Dropout is improvisational & zany while Natalie's videos are baroque, precise & filthy (complimentary). It's hard for me to imagine Natalie jumping into something so unscripted. Of course, I'm often wrong about things, and if she did go for it I'd watch!

william kirkpatrick

watching Severance on Natalie's recommendation. I must say I really admire Brigitte Empire's new takedown of Jo Ro

Anna

I don’t think she has defended Israel at any point, correct me if I’m wrong? I think she just pointed out antisemitism on twitter?

Dama Arauz

Thanks for standing up to brain rot tankies!

william kirkpatrick

learning about Authentic Observer/Galatea's war with Vausch. Pretty sickening. I guess I can remember always when I am an asshole straight man pretending to be hyperintelligent, I am Vaush the mansplainer....rhymes with ?....

Frostfalls

100% when you get off twitter you realize what goes on there is not at all representative of the general population, and a lot of the "discourse" on there is just noise. I got off it for good in 2021 and it did wonders for my mental health. Some creators say they "have to" use it, but I don't know if I agree. Especially recently, you're not really reaching the people you might have in the past. You're mostly just reaching terminally online twitter people, some of which actively want to make your life hell. It's not worth sacrificing your mental health.

Viviane P.L.

I wish natalie would do a deep dive on Paris is Burning so I can forget a out the world for a couple of hours

Rose Dombegh

Natalie even if you had encouraged voting more in 2024, I sincerely doubt you could have changed the election results. It's not your fault, gorge.

Wolfebrayne

I love you, have learned so much from you and agree with you on almost everything, but the power of myself compels me to disagree with you on the whole 'vote blue no matter who thing.' A few years ago I read Hannah Arendt's On Evil (not sure the exact English name bc I ofc read it in the original German), and the gist is basically 'it’s not on you to do right, it’s on you to not do wrong.' Nazi Germany was especially heinous because it created a moral imperative to do wrong, a moral imperative to Jewish genocide (morals are cultural she said, ethics are universal). Sorry, but I feel like that’s what’s going on in the US rn, albeit less directly than in Nazi Germany. We’re being morally shamed into consenting to the Palestinian genocide by voting for a Democratic party that condones and makes it possible. And lending support and legitimacy to genocide with your vote is thus, according to Arendt's reasoning, unethical. That’s the ethical argument against voting Democrat. There’s also a practical argument, namely that if everyone opposed to the Palestinian genocide refused to vote Democrat, the party would lose much of its political power and any hope of gaining it back would necessitate a move to the left. I believe Bernie lost in 2016 and 2020 because he too freely gave up his power, if he had said 'hey Dems it’s me or it’s nobody coz if I lose I’m taking my supporters w me' then even if he lost, some serious momentum for actual Leftist organization could have been achieved, and after 8-12 years of Trump, people would be sick and ready to go vote full Lefty. Me thinks it’s plausible. But what do I know

Destiny Deevee

Girl I love your content but, and I say this from the bottom of my heart, you need to get off Twitter and stop letting leftists goad you into saying things you’ll probably regret. Anyone seeking your extended opinion on the genocide in Gaza and Israeli/American politics was probably not someone worth listening to.

yaoibunga

it has gotten worse :')

Hashim Almuallem

uh oh she has unveiled the nazi flags. I'm outskis I hope you understand that you need to stand up for what's right to get actual results. As members of the LGBTQ+, staying complacent and focusing our politics on helping the majority and the more privileged isn't what helped us. We fought for our lives, along with the help of those more privileged to get here (still not enough tho). If you want to move things forwards, you don't leave people behind. I'm glad we're getting, at least as a start, a new leftist American front in the politics world, with Mamdani being a huge kick starter, and I don't think we would've gotten there by being silent, complacent, and sacrificial as you're suggesting. We got there by choosing to be better, and believing the majority can as well. P.S. I hated your last video, it was mostly a ripoff of the Satanism tangent, and had very little fun edits and cool visuals that I experienced in your previous videos. Also, coming to terms that there's a lot of cultural appropriation with some of your video fashion choices in the past and now

Simon

really disappointing take on israel, and the left, my advice give up twitter, and make it clear you are not in favour of an ethno state on the shore of the Mediterranean sea. Make it clear, that you are in favour of palestinian suffrage. Finally the left are not in power either goverment or in oppossition in my country or yours. You can stop blaming them as soon as like no one will be mad. The liberals and professional polticians in my country had there chance to ride the left populist wave to power, they turned there nose up at it and the vulgarities of the non professional/non university educated left, and with remarkable self interest they sabotaged or withheld there expertise and knowledge. because they could, but they have no such power over right populism. and having alienated huge swathes of the underclass/ working class have no way to defeat the right, unless they reverse course and stop pointing the finger at the powerless.

Salvador

You are cool

Amalija

Really baffling that you described sharing video evidence of the genocide in Gaza as “worse than useless”, when it’s been the main catalyst for raising awareness among those naive to the Palestinian struggle. I don’t know what’s worse, that or your framing of anti-Zionist, pro-liberation leftists as “championing a doomed cause”. What even are your principles at this point? What is a cause worth championing if not the cessation of genocide? I’ve been a fan of your work for over a decade, since very early days, and like I said, I am fucking baffled and disappointed.

Amalija

What a weird thing to say.

Shaeda

I think quitting social media like twitter would probably be for the best

andy

I can only comment on my experience since the 2024 election as one of the targeted groups of this administration but I can empathize with seeing a group that you are part of (trans, immigrant, etc…) being actively hurt by this administration and feeling like the left threw the baby out with the bath water in the 2024 election. It all sucks, because Palestine continues to be bombed into oblivion, immigrants and trans people continue to be attacked, but at the very least some people can feel good about “being on the right side of history”. It all feels like optics, we can protest all we want but terrible things continue to happen with no significant wins and no end in sight. Any legal protections provided by the constitution are actively being dismantled…. I just highly doubt that Kamala would have done a fraction of the harm that Trump is doing right now. And I think that’s where Natalie is coming from in all of this. We could have still fought, protested, and done all of these things under Kamala for a free Palestine without the literal constitution being shredded into pieces as we speak and documented residents and citizens being deported to god knows where and trans people losing their access to care….

Simon

if someone was working class and poor did they have access to gender affrimimg care before?

yaoibunga

not being combative, i am genuinely asking: is there any evidence that outspoken lefties online who abstained from voting were the cause of kamala losing? didn't she lose all over the country (but win in the states where many of the aforementioned lefties live)? it just seems to me like there is very little blame to place at the feet of people who were "on the right side of history." from my perspective, kamala's loss had more to do with the actions of the democratic party. they insisted on running a guy whose brain has been melting for years, even though he had originally said that he'd be a one-term president. then when his brain melted on live television, they skipped the democratic process of choosing a new candidate and instead stuck in someone who has barely ever won elections or demonstrated popularity (just look at her primary performance in 2019). her political stance was explicitly and non-hyberbolically "more of the same." whenever she was asked what she'd do differently from biden, she would usually say "nothing, he was great." but people were not happy and were not doing well and so that was not a compelling political message (regardless of whether you think she was correct, politically-speaking). none of these observations are based on my political values (which are at extreme odds with those of kamala, biden, and obviously trump), they are just attempts to diagnose why the dems had such an historically-poor performance in the election. i guess i just don't think it was due to (what i see as) a small number of outspoken politically- and justice-minded online voices. again, i'm not trying to be combative or argumentative or anything. just offering an alternative perspective from someone who likely shares many of your values and understandings of the world :)

carmen

hey I have enjoyed your content over the years and appreciate what you did for trans politics back in the 2010s. i will be cancelling my subscription and unsubscribing however due to your statement about Palestine which I felt was at best tone deaf and worst deeply irresponsible and callous.

carmen

no hate I just cannot financially support you anymore. and I encourage other leftists to do some deep thinking about their support. best of luck to you.

andy

I appreciate your response! And yes that is a huge part of why we’re in this mess as well. I think part of this line of thinking is also trying to find ways to make meaningful and effective coalitions to bring about change in the world but being unable to do so. I don’t know man, shit is bleak!

andy

The resources, however slim, could have still been available but this administration seems laser focused on eradicating them all together. I don’t think this would have been a huge priority for Kamala’s administration like it seems to be for Trump’s.

JC

The thing is that "raising awareness" doesn't do anything unless someone with power acts. Everyone is aware of Palestine right now. There is no more awareness to be raised. It is probably the most exposed issue on the planet--and Israel has continued to win its battles, devastate Gaza, and slowly dismantle regional enemies like Hezbollah while others like Assad and Iran crumble under the pressure. Online leftists have this idea that if you just get enough people to believe the right things, to be aware, then you will automatically change reality. But no, change comes from the use of power. Those with power are currently very aware, and have decided that they are not willing to intervene because Palestine has nothing of value to offer them. This is a reality that will not change, no matter how much you "raise awareness," and that is why Natalie says we are championing a doomed cause.

Darren DM

I've been thinking about this a hell of a lot. I'm reminded of the protests in the UK around the Iraq War and Brexit. Those protests were as large - if not larger - than the protests here in support of Palestine. And yet, nothing substantially changed. We still joined in the Iraq invasion, we still left the EU, and Gaza is still an ongoing genocide. Unfortunately I'm coming to the conclusion that calls for "collective action" and "solidarity" might make one feel better but make little material difference. As MLK said "Love without power is sentimental and anaemic."

Eric Adams (German)

As a fan of your work I am concerned by the focus on blaming the powerless for the actions of the powerful. Anti-genocide protesters did not get Trump elected. The view that a focus on Palestine is the real threat to Palestine is the best mental gymnastics I’ve seen in a while. I would like to believe that myself, because it’s comforting to think that our community has the power to strategically change America. Saying it’s our fault that the only democrat to loose the popular vote to Trump is absurd.

Renata Gp

Very dissapointed of your recent statement about palestine. I have been a fan of your work from the beginning but i can't keep supporting you after this.

Hellvetika

I've been a fan since 2018, I've watched and interacted in every AMA, I've defended you countless times online when people take you in bad faith, but I've been honestly concerned by this centrist turn and reactionary attitude you've formed towards leftists as of late. Your recent statement on Palestine is the last straw. I can't in good conscience support someone who is so callous towards the lives of others. I would encourage you to reflect and assess whether or not your "pragmatism" has made you heartless, if your comfort and privilege has made you complacent, and if you truly think the right thing to do is to ignore a genocide so that we can try to grasp at the remnants of rights we have in the extremely broken political system that is America. This isn't another Buck Angel situation, you are going to permanently taint your reputation because of this in a very real way.

KayVee

Some people here are being pretty harsh. Someone said you unveiled your Nazi flag lol, I hope by now you are inoculated against this kind of bad faith criticism. As if you aren't opposed to the slaughter of Palestinians, like you didn't mention Israel's war crimes in your last video, like it isn't obvious to all of us here that its terrible and it would be good if someone could stop it and provide a lasting peaceful solution. Left of centre we really are our own worst enemy. Please don't go insane over this shit. On a fun note you should message Ethan Klein and tell him his endorsement is not good for you lol. Or maybe don't because he would probably turn that message into a full episode and then you would have that mess to look forward to!

communistbananas

Hi Natalie, I have been a fan of yours for many years, since I was in high school in fact. Your content helped me open my mind and heart to other ideas and eventually become so much more politically competent. However, I cannot support you after your recent comments on Palestine. As a descendent of colonized people and a committed leftist your take is very harmful to people of color. The violence which is brought against colonized people as a means to maintain imperial power over us is not something which can be “tolerated” as inevitable. Your take was very disheartening to read and ignorant of the history of colonization which has existed in the region for many decades now. I hope you can find growth and change in the coming years as liberalism continues to fail and create larger and more noticeable problems, but until then this is good bye. I appreciate all you have done for the leftist space, but your ignorance on the experiences of colonized people as simply not your problem is beyond what I am willing to accept. I wish you well.

yaoibunga

hello. i left a comment to this effect a few weeks ago but i guess things have progressed further. i am a patron of just under 7 years and had followed you for some time before that. it is a small amount of money but it is what i can afford and i have always been happy to give it. i am reconsidering that position, however. it has been very unpleasant to watch you online over the past few months seemingly spend all of your posting energy on mocking or critiquing people to your left and on minimizing the harm of the palestinian genocide. it has culminated, i guess, in that new statement, where you spend most of your time explaining how unhelpful (or harmful) pro-palestinian activism (and posting, which is not activism) has been, and running cover for zionism and israel. you implicitly seem to endorse the idea of an ethnostate (in Section II, where you critique leftists for being categorically opposed to the ethnostate) and then propose that critiques of zionism can be credibly perceived (or misperceived) as anti-semitism. i believe that these beliefs are harmful and incorrect—evidently we differ in that regard—but what we can probably both agree on is that this is basically the manufactured status quo. if i want to see someone run the standard liberal zionist playbook—endorse the idea of the ethnostate but disagree with the *current* actions of the state, suggest that anti-zionism is just veiled anti-semitism, argue that pro-palestinian activism somehow helped kamala get elected—then i can find those positions on literally any mainstream news source. perhaps you obtained them through reasoning from first principles but they also happen to be quite literally the party line. surely these sorts of messages don't also require your constant repeated enthusiastic endorsement, no? similarly, your repeated complaints that "kamala wouldn't have done this" are bizarre and naive and unhelpful. what are counterfactuals like that supposed to accomplish? what possible value could they offer? they are meant to imply a critique, of course, of a small number of online lefties who did not vote for the democrats, but to what end? kamala did not lose because of them and there is no data to suggest as much. you disagree with the people who abstained from voting. fine. it turns out it didn't matter anyway because the dems ran an historically-bad campaign that resulted in historically-poor results. blaming this on lefties and advocates for palestine is unscientific, foolish, and (in my opinion) immoral. kamala was a deeply-unpopular candidate who was not democratically-selected to run in the election and has historically been an extremely unpopular politician (just look at her 2019 primary results). she was undemocratically chosen last-minute to replace a man whose senility had been obvious for years but had finally become undeniable because he started sundowning during a debate. the democrats did a bunch of patently stupid things in a very short period of time and offered literally no positive political vision... why would they have done well? do you honestly think that if a few thousand twitter posters had shown up in california and new york that she would have won? do you really see these as considered and insightful perspectives? and if you do not, then why do you insist on sharing them (to, seemingly, the great aggravation of the people who support you)? if you want someone to be mad at, be mad at the dems. do you really think that it is more useful to critique those without power than to critique those with it? i do not need/want/expect you to have all the same opinions/values/perspectives as me, of course. for example, i found the conspiracy theory video to be shallow and naive, speaking both as a research scientist who studies conspiratorial thinking and as someone who tries to pay attention to the accumulation and use of power in the world across history. (no, i am not a "conspiracy theorist" or any of the other people impugned in the video. i am an academic who studies this topic though and i was surprised at how thin and ahistorical your ideas were, especially given how nuanced an understanding you've presented of other topics in my research expertise.) it's not like i ever made that opinion known anywhere though, it's not like i cancelled my patreon subscription or anything like that. but i also support you in part for your unique insights and perspectives on culture, on politics, and so on. arguing that anti-zionism can be credibly perceived as anti-semitism is not a unique insight. (it is also a ridiculous notion, though i suppose it did not occur to you to talk to any of the many many anti-zionist jews about the topic.) whinging about a small group of online lefties and imagining that they determined the results of the election is not a unique perspective. spending your time posting about how imagined hypothetical acts of anti-semitism are somehow more serious than an ongoing genocide is bizarre but it is also extremely common. i can get that anywhere. it just seems extremely strange to give money each month to someone whose primary concern seem to be bashing people of my political perspective (especially given how small a group it is and how little power it wields). i joked earlier that you had obtained these bog standard lib perspectives by reasoning them from first principles but i guess i am curious as to how you came to them and whether you think it is notable that so many people who ostensibly share your values seem to find them so repugnant. do you consider yourself to be well-read on this matter? is there a reason that you think your vocal endorsement of standard liberal zionist perspectives is so crucial? is it possible that this sort of crank behaviour is just the result of isolation and resentment? again, i cannot imagine what possible value it offers you or the rest of the world. anyway. i know that you and i are not "friends." i do not think that you "owe" me things (i have always found that sort of language irritating, from literally every side). but i am, in a truly miniscule way, a "patron" of yours and that patronage does i suppose come with some expectations. in short: i expect you to be an interesting and intellectual commentator on matters cultural and political of at least passing moral standards (publicly, anyway). lately, it seems like you are failing to fulfill any of those expectations. i hope that you provide some sort of response to the comments like this one. if you do not, then i guess i will see myself out. take care.

yaoibunga

conflict is not abuse

Declan

Been watching you literally for years. Going Anita Bryant/JKR on the Palestinian Genocide isn't something I thought I'd ever see and it hurts. Feels like one of those moments where if you didn't want to comment on it you should've just ignored it. That would have been fine in the long run. But it feels callous.

slightlyedi

as a jewish leftist, who cares deeply about Palestinians safety, but who has nonetheless felt unseen and unheard by the leftist community for years and like people would rather use antisemitic arguments to prove their points then treat jews and israelis as humans worthy of dignity and respect just like Palestinians, your statement made me feel seen and was very relieving after so much of leftists online have taken the most aggressive stance possible. im really saddened by the online reaction to it and i think people need to stop trying to scold everyone who doesn’t share their exact same beliefs on these complex issues.

Sonia Perez

I have been loving your work for many years and I have nothing but admiration for you. Please please, Natalie, the breakdown that Hasan Piker made on the premises of your statement is important. The damage that the empire has had on the global south is the root of the pain of so many. The fate millions of people is decided by American politics. It cannot be denied. Please, I am trans and Venezuelan and my time organizing with students for justice in Palestine united so many struggles. We need to lift up this struggle. Who is next? Who cares about us Venezuelans? Not the United States. People deserve sovereignty and we cannot relativize apartheid.

Amalija

Raising awareness has literally lead to saving lives by way of fundraising for Palestinians. Raising awareness is the first step toward nourishing the seed of action. It’s incredibly privileged and cynical for her and anyone to suggest that redistribution of the first hand accounts provided by the victims of the genocide itself is “useless”. Frankly it’s repulsive to say. As if effort spent campaigning for Kamala would have been more fruitful.

Amalija

We should’ve known better when she associated with Clinton lmao 🤦🏻‍♀️

Hellvetika

If anything, she’s TOO inoculated against criticism.

alex d

7 years of support coming to an end. I think i lost when you talked about "hundreds of photos and videos of dead Palestinian children". It's the fresh stories of targeting of journalists, educators, aid workers, the doctors AND their families that haunts me. I've tried to limit my exposure to just the DemocracyNow Headlines each day. I've taken to journaling as an outlet. It still does make my blood boil that we support this, and i have limited ways to say "i'm done with people who tolerate it". ☮️

Dihuh

fully agree with everything said here. Wishing you the best Natalie and I hope you stay safe and do well, but I don't think I can be a patron any longer.

sylvie

I understand this is parasocial of me, but I'm really sad that someone who has done such a great job laying out the power dynamics in issues like feminist transphobia and the tendency for terfs to center their feelings over human rights, or to project their own (legitimate) trauma onto marginalized groups, would not see how that directly applies to israel/palestine.

Cinabeeeeee

I'm also commenting here to express support of you in this latest witch-hunt. The left is soooo good about consent that they totally respected that you don't want to use your platform to say what they demand you say... Oh wait, they aren't good about that? They don't have anyone else they can effectively hurt so they'll settle for you? They don't take extremely valid criticism well? I'm shocked. And I'm sorry. I'm sorry that we are all so fragmented and are doing the infighting thing again bc we suck at organizing. Please take care of yourself. A bunch of us love you lots.

Rose Dombegh

I am also commenting to express support. I feel like so many people commenting beneath this livestream literally did not watch the stream, where you expressed all of these ideas really coherently and convincingly. Please take care of yourself and know that a) random people on the internet are not a judge of your character and b) so many of us (parasocially) love you.

Cinabeeeeee

Literally came here from Big Joel's BlueSky thread where he claims leftist online posting about Gaza is responsible for keeping it in the public spotlight and making average Dems more sympathetic. Liberals do not listen to online leftists. If *only* online leftists were posting support for Gaza, Liberal support for Israel would be *up*. What persuades liberals? Segments on NPR interviewing doctors who report kids being hit by snipers. Mainstream news agencies reporting on the famine and tents being bombed. The last vestiges of a free press get credit - moreso in spite of leftist online posting than because of them. I will say that *actual* pro-Palestinian protesters and their political pursecution here also probably help it stay in the public eye. Watching a college kid get thrown in a van by men without IDs has been impactful in a way that something haranguing you online never will be.

Melissa Xu

"the fear gives power to the rightwing Zionist claim that only Israel can keep Jews safe". Okay but they're wrong so why not explain to them that they're wrong? Natalie what I don't think you realize is that this rightwing Zionist claim is fundamentally racist, even many people who are letting their fears push them towards racist, fascist ideology are sympathetic. Typically, the job as a video essayist is to correct someone when they’re wrong in the nicest way possible. to gently nudge them into recognizing that they're falling down a fascist rabbit hole. I know you never CLAIMED that this is your job, but then I'm starting to get confused. What exactly IS the point of all your videos then? Do you just like listening to yourself talk?

Rose Dombegh

Natalie will have create the "cheaper than therapy" membership level for just us five lol :)

Rose Dombegh

Adding to this -- it was kind of horrifying to see how the pro-Palestinian protests at my college pushed my parents (and my peers who were not campus activists) further to the right ... because of the exact reasons Natalie pointed out in her Reddit post. Every time I spoke with my parents (who, you know, actually have power and influence in society) they were more pro-Israel. Eventually I just stopped talking with them about it -- you can only break down crying at the people you love most in the world so many times. It's been so frustrating to watch ... especially because it's tearing my communities (including this one, now) apart without actually helping anyone in Palestine. And I suspect it'll be creating the next brand of far-right reactionaries ... people like Brett Cooper or Candace Owens, who will defect from the left/center and becoming hugely influential right-wingers after experiencing personal attacks & ostracism.

Jonathan Kiely

Her job is to make enjoyable and educational videos, on topics that can be made fun and educational. Israel-Palestine is not something that she can make enjoyable, nor is it something she is uniquely qualified to shed light on. She’s an artist not a shepherd to the misinformed. I don’t see how crucifying her online is going to help any child in Palestine.

Najla

I admired you so deeply, Natalie. Your art has given me so much. I'm disheartened to see where you stand

r053 p3t4l

Your videos have been a guiding light through my lifelong transition. Both in terms of gender identity and an escape from a conservative christian upbringing. Thank you for all your work over the years in that respect. I've been saddened to see your return to twitter, honestly its been pushing me to reevaluate my time spent there. After your recent statement I do not feel comfortable supporting you here. Still, I look forward to your next main channel video and I hope you again reflect on your current beliefs on zionism.

Lauren

Agreed, some of the comments here are shockingly in bad faith. Natalie, full support to you. This reaction is ridiculous. I always appreciate your focus on practical strategies rather than whatever the left on twitter seem to think they're doing. My main feedback is leave twitter - it sucks

Phoenix Ramsey

you're still gonna tolerate though, but tell yourself you're not.

Al Spanner

If you wanted to post once and be done with this, it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Didn't really meet the moment with this one, probably didn't have to say anything at all. Maybe it's a good thing you spoke up, like, for the dialog. I'm not pulling my support from you, your work continues to be important to me and imo the performative divestment is petty. I just hope you aren't crashing out too hard and can continue to engage with some of this.

Mikh

Dear community, I've been sitting with something heavy today, and I need to put it into words. I'm not trying to escalate conflict or pick sides in petty "drama". I just want to speak honestly about something that matters to me deeply. Politically and emotionally. I've read Natalie's statement. I've read the responses here. I know I'm not alone in feeling uncomfortable with what was said and how it was said. Most of us who are upset aren't reacting out of hatred or a refusal to understand complexity - actually, it's the opposite. Of course Jewish people deserve safety, belonging, and dignity after centuries of displacement and persecution. I will never deny that. I will never deny anyone the right to live freely and without fear. But I also can't close my eyes to what the Israeli state is doing to Palestinians under Zionist ideology. This goes beyond bombs and bullets. It's about burning children, crying mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters. Entire schools, hospitals, places of shelter and humanitarian aid are being brutally erased. Doctors, journalists, health-care workers - many of whom came to Gaza to help - are being silenced, or worse; some are being targeted and killed, even UN-Officials were killed. And these brutal realities align with public admissions from high-level officials. Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich declared, "It is written that the future of Jerusalem is to expand to Damascus," expressing a vision of a Jewish state stretching beyond current borders into Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt. That's not fringe conspiracy. It's extremist ideology voiced on camera. Settler leader Daniella Weiss said plainly, "No Arab … will stay [in Gaza]," adding that Jews will settle the entire Gaza Strip. This is ethnic erasure, declared openly. Even Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, speaking at the White House, warned that "any future independent Palestinian state would pose a platform to destroy Israel," insisting that "sovereign power of security must remain in our hands." That's hegemonic control justified through fear. What exactly is a displaced population, living under apartheid conditions for generations, stripped of basic human dignity and left without infrastructure, food, or water - with reports even suggesting aid flour is being laced with drugs - going to do against one of the world's most advanced military powers? When I read Natalie's statement, I felt a deep sadness. I know how brilliant she is. I've watched her challenge power before; I've seen her unravel the hardest, ugliest arguments with insight, humanity, and care. I've heard her warn against dehumanizing entire groups by fixating on the extremes. How moral clarity can vanish under foggy intellectualism. And here, I can't help but feel something similar is happening in reverse. Voices of pain and outrage are being dismissed as "drama." People calling out genocide are being told they're too online. Somehow, this is all too messy to take a side. But it's not messy - it's horrifying. Watching genocide unfold in real time, hearing justifications for the unjustifiable, seeing entire families erased while the world struggles to say it out loud. And yes, I still love Natalie's work. I always will. Her voice meant something to me, still does. She brought philosophy back into the world in a way that felt alive. Not abstract or academic. She made theory breathe. She showed us that beauty and thought could coexist, that being trans or marginalized doesn't mean being excluded from ideas, from history, from power. Maybe that's why this hurts so much. I don't doubt that she sees what's happening. She even said the word: genocide. But if you truly believe that applies, how can you not say more? How does the clarity that shaped so many of her videos vanish now? It feels like absence, not caution. I want truth. I want courage. I want to believe that those of us who've followed this work, who have grown because of it, deserve more than careful distance. I'm not asking for purity. I'm not trying to cancel anyone. I'm not even sure yet whether I'll pull my financial support like many others have clearly stated. I need to think about it. But I also want to give Natalie the chance to reflect on all of this and respond appropriately. Now that she's made this statement, I feel like she owes her patrons at least a clearer stance. Maybe even an acknowledgment of how supposed "liberal" ideas of what is true and arguments about how "the online left has lost the plot" aren't a productive way forward. This is about not losing our ability to grieve what's real. About making sure that when history looks back, we didn't choose silence simply because the words were hard. To make this absolutely clear, I'm not criticizing her previous "silence" or her speaking out, I'm criticizing her framing of this situation and her seemingly defeatist bad faith analysis of this entire situation. I'm saying that I and many others can't stay silent over her statement. Thank you to everyone here who's been brave enough to speak (in a respectful manner)...I hope this space can still hold room for grief and a sense of justice and humanity.

LSDFR2

I agree with some parts of your statement on I/P and disagree with other parts. Mostly though I feel that your opinion on this has been too influenced by what you have been experiencing this past year on twitter. You mentioned in an AMA stream last year the harassment you experienced from twitter leftists after you expressed support for Kamala Harris. I'm sorry that you went through that, and that you have continued to be harassed by people demanding that you speak on this issue (many of them disingenuously, with the intention to find fault with whatever statement you do make). I don't think that any of us who are not online personalities can imagine the mental and emotional stress that a person is put under by receiving a deluge of comments every day telling you that you are a terrible person. I don't think it is a thing that has been sufficiently studied or is sufficiently understood by the wider public. I'm really sorry if my comment comes across as patronising. I know that you know a lot more about the online space than I do, and I don't mean to tell you how you feel. It's just that I have experienced my own political beliefs shifting in the past as a result of spending too much time on certain forums until I realised and stopped going on them, and wondered if it could be the case with you. Twitter leftists are not the entirety of the pro-palestine movement, nor are they even really a significant part, but it probably seems that way when they are bombarding you with abuse. Honestly my feeling with twitter now is that a lot of these people are just bots, or worse, brigaders from communities whose sole intent is to push specific creators in the direction they want. There are some people online who would be very happy to see a "why I left the left" video from ContraPoints! Again, sorry if this comment is annoyingly parasocial. I honestly just feel that all this online harassment and propaganda to blame for many of the political issues we have right now, and so it tends to be where my mind goes! Wishing you all the best and looking forward to your future videos.

Rachel

Natalie, as a long time admirer of your work and as a Jewish anti-Zionist, I have to say I'm highly disappointed in your take on Zionism. Your defense of Zionism and the Israeli state shows me that you have not engaged with Zionism ideologically with any intellectual curiosity or honesty the way that you do with other topics that you heavily research and discuss. Your video content has meant so much to me. Over the years I’ve greatly admired the work and artistry and thought you put in. I even am using Granola Fascism as part of my research on my thesis project for my Master’s degree. I have defended you against bad faith accusations. I’ve looked forward to all your video content with so much delight. And now I’m so sad to see that you’ve taken this rightward turn. Natalie, have you taken the time to read the writings of the early Zionists like Herzl, Jabotinsky, and Ben Gurion? as well as the writings of Palestinian and Jewish critics of Zionism? If you did, you'd see the very obvious: that it's an ideology insidious to its core, inherently settler colonial. I remember in Granola Fascism you said you found it refreshing that Evola just spells it out that he’s racist as opposed to contemporary fascists who hide it behind an ever shifting cloud of dog whistles and nonsense. Well, the early Zionists just spell it out that they’re racist Jewish supremacists. There is no alternative “real Zionism” that leftists are mistaken about. There is truly no defense of ethnonationalism, even for a marginalized group like Jewish people. Persecution of the Other is always the logical conclusion of an ethnonationalist ideology. Sure, maybe a lot of leftists decided to be anti-Zionist without getting educated on Zionism, but that doesn't matter because the genocide is Zionism in practice. Have you given any of this real deep thought? It seems like you’re just putting out the same basic hasbara talking points. This goes beyond any principled discussion of Palestine. I am afraid that you've done the exact thing you have criticized JK Rowling and Naomi Wolf of. You got a lot of criticism from people who once admired you as well as bad faith accusations and legitimate harassment. But instead of internalizing the critique and dismissing the bad faith accusations as the bad behavior of a handful of online people, you moved rightward and just began to dismiss leftist principles altogether. So here you are being reactionary about the pro-Palestine movement. I am deeply saddened. I hope you reconsider your positions.

Rose Dombegh

Guys. WHAT ARE WE ALL DOING? Did you all miss the part of ^LITERALLY THIS LIVESTREAM^ where she talked about going into such a deep depression spiral that she couldn't function?! Every single post here "calling her out" begins with the admission that Natalie's videos have brought guiding light into our lives . . . is this really how we treat someone who's meant so much to us, even if we disagree? If your most cherished teacher/mentor irl were going through what Natalie's dealing with, would you treat them this way? Don't you think we owe her a little more sheer human kindness, whatever we believe? Are you TRYING to push her over the edge? She's literally talked four HOURS about scapegoating, about the psychological affects of being canceled, about her "fans" sending her graphic images of war crimes and what it does to her. We all "loved" the section of the Conspiracy video where she talked about the U.S. after 9/11 and the danger of scapegoating and retributive violence . . . and it seems like none of us listened.

marc

Your worked has helped me greatly personally and it's helped me bring people I love into the left. I really think you will look back at this moment and your statement and will be disappointed in yourself. I hope so. That statement seems so disconnected from all your work and your integrity. I'm gonna stick around cause I really believe in your work. I hope you take some time to reflect.

Melissa Xu

I'm actually not of the mind that creators have to comment on everything but making a statement that "commenting on racism/fascism is bad actually bc it makes sympathetic ppl who are falling for the racist/fascist propaganda feel bad and that's why I won't do it" is weird....especially as a video essayist

Melissa Xu

Also, she basically provided new intellectualized talking points for liberal zionists to use to tell people speaking up for Palestine to shut up

Mian Emily

Just saw your Reddit post and with great sadness I have to cancel my Patreon subscription. “Decent people” do not support an ethnostate.

Ornithophobix

This is the DM I sent last night, posting it here in case it resonates with anyone. ------------------------- Dear Natalie, I’m a longtime follower and funder of your work and was, until recently, doing a graduate degree in America. Every Monday at noon, I and a group of other students and faculty (many of them internationals and, like me, from the global south) would stand at a campus thoroughfare holding photos of some of the Palestinian children killed by the Israeli occupation over the past twenty-one months. Not gory photos of death, but portraits of them as they were in life, with their names, ages, and dates of death. We did this to make passersby remember, if only for a minute, that these children existed. To honor their brief lives. And to remind American citizens in America that their government is committing unconscionable crimes in places far away. People mostly didn’t react to us. A few thanked us, some looked uncomfortable and avoided eye contact. Every now and then someone screamed that we’re antisemites and hate Jews. You might say we wasted our Monday afternoons and all the other hours we’ve spent on the streets, or that our efforts only stirred up emotions and didn’t save a single Palestinian life. I did not hold pictures of dead Palestinian children on the side of the road because I believed it would save lives. It did not matter one bit to me whether my doing this helped or hurt the Democratic Party, or how it made Jewish and non-Jewish Zionists feel. I did it because mothers and fathers in Gaza filmed their dying children so their lives would not be erased from public memory. The families of children murdered by America and Israel entrusted their names and images to us so they would not be forgotten. They laid on us a human obligation, and one with a steep price in guilt, rage, grief, nightmares and so on. To remember that Palestinians are human just like us, and to read even the whitewashed news as it appears, is to incur critical psychic damage every day. But (and perhaps this is my un-Americanness) this feels like the least I can do when my tax dollars have contributed to their extermination. I would do it even if our collective activism didn’t have the effect of shifting popular perception of America’s ethnosupremacist client state as dramatically as it has (https://news.gallup.com/poll/657404/less-half-sympathetic-toward-israelis.aspx). Every vigil, every protest, every rally, every encounter with the police has had, for me, the same functional purpose as going to a funeral. You cannot bring back the dead, but you go anyway because someone is grieving. You go to say: “I’m so sorry. You are not alone. We will remember them with you, feel something of what you’re feeling.” You seem to think that this kind of protest is “worse than useless” because it stirs up feeling that might be channelled into violent ends. Firstly, why single out pro-Palestine protest as uniquely ineffectual — is not all protest performative and emotion-driven? But my main disagreement with you lies elsewhere. I find it remarkable and deeply moving that people continue to choose to feel with the Palestinians in their unimaginable suffering. Even though it provokes extremely uncomfortable feelings (complicity? helplessness? anger?), people are choosing not to turn away, to keep remembering and identifying with a people who have been sentenced to death and oblivion. It is the definition of sympathy — to suffer with. It is a blurring of the boundary between oneself and the other, despite every incentive to harden it. The stubbornly impractical commitment to humanity demonstrated by the Palestine liberation movement has shown me America at its best. I’m sorry it has alienated you. I purchased an annual Patreon subscription today before I read your post on Reddit (I don’t use social media). I am not wealthy but I will consider this back payment for years of truly mind-altering educational content instead of asking for a refund. If you read this, I hope you understand some of the good-faith disappointment being felt by people who have taken your words and opinions seriously for a long time. Stay well.

Rae

I feel the same way. 🫶love you Natalie please take care of yourself rn

Mian Emily

This was so beautifully written and thank you for standing on street corners because it’s the right thing to do, as with every social justice movement past and present.

Mian Emily

I only see messages holding her accountable with love and the respect she deserves. We are talking about how someone w a platform with over a million people talks about a genocide. Obviously it’s going to be charged and all things considered I see people reacting with humanity. Also people are allowed to no longer pay her money if you’re referring to comments saying they’re cancelling their subscription.

Mian Emily

Your point at the end is so true. She’s dismissed the opinions and concerns of people who have followed her loyally for years with defensiveness and weird humor. Maybe that’s what’s most disappointing to me, is how she doesn’t see what she criticizes within herself.

Mian Emily

Totally agree w this! And that’s true :/ I can’t imagine how this has affected her even though it’s still quite disappointing

ijbol

In this moment I’m of two minds. (Bare with me if this sounds narcissistic/narrowminded when commenting on matters of inhumanity/genocide) I’ve been thinking a lot about CJ The X’s ideas. They have been diving into the philisophy of Pragmatism as an alternative driving force (especially to counter the problem of The Phones) and one of the interesting ideas they presented was the fact that Twitter is devoid of Instrumental Value. It’s true that on a daily basis our joke-filled social media timelines are interspersed with horrifying realities over which we have no control (I know saying we have “no control” isn’t devoid of a political opinion. There are important conversations being had even in this comment section about the supposed futility of protests to this genocide, and how that’s a doomerist perspective that ignores the value of speaking truth to power. But we can all agree that the immediate material conditions of Palestinians aren’t changed by how staunch your tweet condemning Israel is). But that’s the whole point on twitter right? The horrible thing is that all you can do is feel disgusted, post, then scroll away. As someone who grew up in post-genocide Rwanda, I remember being haunted by questions like “What was the world doing during our past atrocities? Why didn’t anyone come save us?” during my formative years. Then after October 7th, I witnessed the first live streamed genocide. And despite re-experiencing trauma, anger, and hopelessness at witnessing the plight of Palestinians who are in the same position my family was in 3 decades ago, to me a silver lining was The Left’s resolve. However angry I felt at the state of the world, I could see it reflected in the staunch opposition to settler colonialism, oppression, and genocide commited by Israel. And I especially applauded the left’s choice of enemy: Zionism. Not defined as Judaism, or a belief that Jewish people shouldn’t exist, but instead the belief that it should be at the expense of millions of humans! Then I looked closer. As the genoicide went on and I/P transended the political realm and turned into a cultural issue, I saw people use it to assert their moral superiority. I remember some tweets equating drinking Starbucks to being genocidal and even though I knew this was Terminally Online Behaviour (and probably a 15 yo’s take), it was indicative of the way some leftists take some important tools for protesting, divestment, and stategic opposition and use them to prune their consumption habits in hopes of attaining moral purity. In this moment, I had the answer to my life-long question: any concern I would have hoped for from the international community for my country’s suffering will always be limited as people can only internalize our pain through the myopic lens of their own circumstances. (I’ve now come to understand that this is human nature. I realize it’s naive and unreasonable to expect people to always provide support from a depersonalized standpoint). But then I gave it much more thought. What did I want these people to do? Isn’t any support, even that mediated through individualistic political/cultural self-actualization still support none the less? I share this journey I underwent, not because I think it’s relevant to Natalie’s position (her qualms are more about the ability for anti-zionism to spiral into antisemitism and alienate most people, which despite being possible, is largely overstated—smarter people than me have made better arguments against her beliefs even in these comments). I shared the evolution of my thoughts because I realized that I was being negatively polarized into hating people that are denouncing one of the worst evils taking place in the world in my lifetime because I don’t always, 100% agree with what they say or how they say it. Pragmatically, when the stakes are this high it doesn’t matter who I’m getting support from. All work (yes, even that which is selfishly motivated) that goes to highlight the injustice of the situation is honorable and important. NB: Also, obligatory “I’m a long time supporter of Contrapoint” etc… I won’t withdraw my support because I still think she does important work. But I believe if nothing else she owes it to HERSELF to evaluate why so many people on Tweeter (🤢), Instagram, Reddit, and even Patrons who monetarily support her are having such a strong reaction to the parts of her statement (which imo is mostly fair and nuanced) that uphold Zionism.

ijbol

Thanks you for making such a hard-hitting and important statement. I’ll come back to it more.

ijbol

I agree that it is an honest and incredibly layered take. But I think most people are doing what they usually do: focus on what they disagree with. Besides this being a terribly fraught topic which social media will always handle with nuance (/s) I think it’s important to still understand the main point of many good-faith disagreements with the statement. (Even the accussations of being a liberal Zionist. Those may feel like buzzwords but I think it’s definitionally relevant).

Rory

We can all see that you’re on the receiving end of a lot of performative punishment right now. What they are saying is not true. You have made it very clear that you are not a Nazi nor a genocidal Zionist. You are not evil and not scum. But you’re also getting good-faith, non-retributive criticism from people who have supported your work for a long time, who disagree with your response. I have nothing to add on Palestine itself that hasn’t already been better said by several commenters below. I just wanted to join the voices urging you to please turn away from the name-callers on Twitter and towards your longtime viewers who feel alienated by the political nihilism about Palestine in your post. I have been a patron for several years now. Your videos have changed my life several times over. I will continue to support this channel (so long as I am employed) because I believe in your work and I believe in you. I hope you are able to recover mentally from this current onslaught and from the past few months, and to engage sometime in the future with the good-faith criticism expressed here.

Mikh

Hi Rose - sorry for the long reply. I really do understand your concern for Natalie's wellbeing, it's painful to watch someone you admire and care about get criticized, especially when you know they're struggling or have a history will "online mobs". That protective instinct makes total sense - and in any other debate or political issue, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But I think something crucial is getting lost here: people are responding strongly not because we don't care about Natalie, but precisely because we do. We are no internet trolls or vile haters. To suggest that this mostly good faith approach is anything other than a desperate try to have her reflect on what her statement entails is not the same as some petty YouTube drama or kids being hyperbolic online. This isn't typical YouTube drama or political disagreement even. We're watching what many legal scholars, human rights experts, and journalists are calling genocide unfold in real time. When you believe you're witnessing systematic ethnic cleansing, the moral calculus changes completely. The idea that we should stay quiet to protect someone's feelings, even someone we love and respect, becomes much harder to justify when silence feels like complicity. Especially when we also back her financially - that's what makes me feel we have a certain level of responsibility. We are not scapegoating! I don't think any supporters of hers, who care about the lives of the people in Gaza, want to dehumanize Natalie or make her somehow responsible for what's happening. She's not the enemy. But that doesn't mean her statement is above criticism. Natalie chose to make a public statement about this situation. She didn't have to speak at all, but she did. And when she acknowledged it was genocide while simultaneously providing cover for those perpetrating it, that's not a position you get to take without response, especially from people who've learned critical thinking from her own work. With all honesty, I think it's a little infantilizing to suggest that Natalie should be shielded from criticism of her public political statements because of her mental health. She's a brilliant adult who built her platform on rigorous analysis and moral consistency. The idea that good faith critique itself is a form of harm undermines what made her work so important in the first place. We're not family, most of us aren't even friends, but we came here because we believed in the same principles she championed and recognized the importance of someone like Natalie being able to keep doing what she does best. Remember how Natalie criticized J.K. Rowling's harmful positions on trans issues? Or Vaush's weird "tactical misogyny"? She understood those weren't just abstract "opinions" but positions contributing to *real harm*. The same principle applies here. This isn't the Buck Angel situation. This isn't even the trans people in sports debate, although that's important too. This is about people being systematically and brutally killed while the world debates whether it's polite to call it what it is. We're talking about approx. 60,200 to 84,000 total deaths, 80% of which are civilians, around 60% women, children, and elderly. We're all struggling with how to balance care for someone we respect with what feels like a moral emergency. But many of us feel we're standing at a historical precipice where our collective response will matter. That's why staying silent feels impossible for many of us. I'm trying to have compassion, because I know that Natalie doesn't mean any harm, but many of us are heartbroken feeling like someone whose work helped us understand injustice is now asking us to look away from it. Some fellow fans think it's okay to act like nothing happened. That's why this hurts so much - not because we don't love her work or respect what she's given us, but because we do. I sincerely hope we can at least find common ground somewhere in all of this, but if not, I'll have to accept that too.

Xylem

Hi, Always liked your work. Resubscribing to offset all the absolute losers posting long walls of texts in this comment section.

Rose Dombegh

Hi! Thanks for the really sincere response. A bit of context -- there's a person in my life (a former teacher, to be precise) who's trans, has bipolar disorder and a history with addiction, and I can't help thinking of her in these moments. I don't think that's a bad thing; it reminds me of the real human cost that thousands of online comments can have. I also think that people are drawing untrue assumptions from the reddit post. Natalie's not hesitating to call the violence what it is --a genocide. She didn't "cover" for those perpetrating it -- she isn't defending Netanyahu, and she's certainly not defending the U.S. president. She was explaining that she did not feel it was appropriate to turn it into entertainment on YouTube (a stance that I agree with). That was the point of the post, remember -- an explanation as to why she's not making a Contrapoints video about the conflict. And she's definitely "asking us to look away from [injustice]." Rather, during what she recognizes as a "moral emergency" (in your words) she's cautioning that WE should be careful about who in our proximity our fury could spill over and hurt. I think this is the best possible advice anyone could give. The wave of "criticism" (though I don't see calling her "Hitlerpoints" etc. as good faith criticism) only illustrates her point. We're all angry at a problem that (for most of us) is far away, so we lash out with an inquisition-esque puritanical streak at those close to us. We have limited capacity to help, and almost unlimited capacity to do harm. Natalie is aware that she has a platform that could further inflame this dynamic. And if she used it to further inflame this dynamic, she would be responsible for the violence that overspill of anger caused -- which has already amounted to a revival of literal blood libel (thank you Candace Owens). Basically everything Natalie said in that Reddit post she had already said in previous AMA streams (including the one above) and the video CONSPIRACY. I can't help noticing that patrons didn't get angry at her then ... which makes me suspect that they're joining an internet mob, not offering their vulnerable and thoughtful critique. I also think it reveals a double standard. You and others are responding to the Reddit post saying that "staying silent" in the face of this moral emergency is untenable, and specifically that Natalie's "silence" -- which I take to mean that she didn't scream into the void of Reddit that she demands the violence end -- is morally reprehensible. But Natalie's not being punished for being silent. She's being punished for speaking -- and saying things consistent with the view she has taken for over a year, at this point. She was damned if she didn't say anything, and apparently doubly damned if she did. To me, this just further suggests that people are furious -- and she just happened to be the one their fury got directed towards. Which I get. And I get how in times of extreme upset, the opinions of a YouTuber you admire can feel like the most important thing in the world (I've been there). But I think that given the current situation and Natalie's influence, the best "moral stance" she could take is the one that she took (and has consistently taken) -- don't let righteous fury spill over into moral retribution towards those close to us. The last thing I'll say is it's about a lot more than "feelings." Natalie's been really open about how the last time she got this comprehensively canceled she got addicted to Opium; she's spoken recently about becoming too depressed to function; she's discussed (in "Canceling") how internet mobs can lead creators to die by suicide. For me at least this pretty clearly tips the moral scales. Whatever possible good could come of "critiquing" her in a wave of posts that, as she has clearly said in the past, become emotionally characterized by the most violent and horrible (see her video on J.K. Rowling), I don't think it nearly outweighs the harm that it will likely do to her.

Rachel

Thank you, this was really beautifully put.

Nausicaä Sinclair

Ethno-states should not exist, especially one predicated on the displacement and extermination of a people like other western colonial settler projects. I am most disappointed in the complete lack of any optimism towards leftist organizational efforts as a whole. You seem resentful of it instead. You were one of my role models when I first transitioned. You helped me find myself, and gain my footing as a newly out trans woman. However, years later now and I am confident in the woman I have become. Confident enough to know when my hero is wrong… like… really wrong. I have FFS in 6 days lol I was going to rewatch beauty but now thinking about it just makes me sad. I haven’t decided if I am going to end my support; I have tears in my eyes as I write this, but I think I have to.

Alfred Jaremko Young

Any perspective that does not center the sins of America and Israel as the sole source of the world's problems is regarded by the left as morally objectionable just as much or more than the right considers objectionable anything that does not center American supremacy. These views are two sides of the same Imperialist, Christian worldview. Whether it is in service of atoning for their sins or spreading their faith, both sides of the American political spectrum feel a moral duty to impose their ideology on others. Its unfortunate Natalie has to be on the receiving end of this so strongly. There seems to be an army of missionaries out to correct her sinful opinion not out of concern for her or a desire for a solution, but out of concern for saving her soul. And as Natalie said, Israel's genocidal government benefits from this. The US right and center left can arm them and task them with slowly eradicating the infidels and the far left gives them the evidence they need to convince their population that the rest of the world wants them dead. Natalie doesn't know how to end the conflict. Her posting DEATH TO THE ETHNOSTATE would have satisfied people but its no solution. The unfortunate truth is that probably the only people who can stop the genocide now are Israelis. We need to be ready to support them if there's an opportunity to get rid of Netenyahu before he completely consolidates power and takes the next step in pursuing "Greater Israel." And if you personally lost your home or family in Gaza, ignore this comment. Feel however you want/need to.

Cole

The circular firing squad will continue to doom the efforts of pro-Palestinian activists in the US, and the US Left as a whole. Natalie, if you read this, thank you for all the work you've done to entertain and motivate us Left-of-Center Americans to examine our actions and be better versions of ourselves... and also, for your own sake, I sincerely hope you get off Twitter. Bluesky is sooooo much fun once you follow a few unhinged poasters.

Garrett Barton

I'm not a fan of purity testing in many cases. However, speaking out against those who stand against a genocide for being bad for optics or the Dems or whatever is absurd. Natalie is literally part of the firing squad when she calls out protesters rather than standing with them.

Cole

That's one reason why I hope she gets off Twitter. I think she catches pot shots from leftists (or bots) there all day, and can't help but fire some back, and it's unhealthy for everyone involved and also counterproductive to any possible better outcomes for the world.

bluetybloop

Hey just wanted to express my support of you. It seems like you have been in a really rough place these last few months and I really hope that this backlash isn’t causing you to spiral further into despair. You did everything you can do. I hope that even though it probably sucks to be cancelled online, it must feel cathartic to know that you’ve now done everything you can to say your piece. The silver lining of people leaving is that at least you don’t have to feel responsible for them.

bluetybloop

I am saying this because it seems like a lot of people are ignoring that you were receiving death threats and sent gore. Obviously that changes the context of your post. I don’t think people productively criticizing you recognize that they’re contributing to an unproductive dog pile. I’m so sorry that so few prominent people are showing you empathy. You deserve better.

Mikh

Thank you for sharing that context about your former teacher - it really helps me understand where you're coming from. I think we actually agree on more than it might seem. You're absolutely right that some responses have crossed into harassment territory, and "Hitlerpoints" is obviously unacceptable. The concern about protecting someone you care about makes complete sense. But I think there might be some misunderstanding about what many of us are actually critiquing. You mention that Natalie wasn't defending Netanyahu or covering for those perpetrating genocide, and that she was just explaining why she wouldn't make a video about it. I hear you, but I think this misses what people are actually responding to right now. The overall criticism isn't that she didn't make a statement or that she didn't call it genocide - she did both of those things. The issue is how she framed the situation while doing so. When someone acknowledges genocide is happening but then characterizes the pro-Palestine movement as primarily focused on "opposition to Zionism in general" rather than stopping an ongoing genocide, or describes documentation of dead children as mainly creating "bloodboiling rage with no consequential political outlet," that's not just about her choice not to make a video. That's about how we talk about ongoing atrocities, and the real-world implications of that framing. I can only speak for myself when I say this, but when I think about this genocide and the endless amount of footage, news coverage and personal anecdotes, the first thing I feel isn't rage - it's a deep sadness for humanity and a drive to do whatever I humanly possibly can do with what I have and what I know...which is then followed by rage, naturally. I also want to clarify something important - you mention that we're criticizing Natalie's "silence," but that's not quite right. I never criticized her for being silent. My point was the opposite: many of us feel *we* cannot stay silent after her statement because of how it framed the situation. When she characterizes anti-Zionism as politically infeasible and dangerous, or suggests the pro-Palestine movement is primarily about opposition to Israel's existence rather than stopping genocide, that puts supporters in a difficult position. The "staying silent feels like complicity" isn't about *her* silence - it's about feeling complicit with that framing if we don't respond. And honestly, framing this as people "looking for someone to be angry at" minimizes genuine moral distress, in my opinion. When people see 60,000+ dead and feel like someone they respect is characterizing their moral outrage as just "bloodboiling rage," that's a legitimate concern about how we discuss ongoing genocide. You're right that we have limited capacity to help and unlimited capacity to harm. But I'd argue that part of helping is ensuring we talk about these issues in ways that don't inadvertently provide cover for the powerful or minimize the severity of what's happening - because how on earth could Palestine pose a real *existential* threat to Israel when they're the ones getting erased? And like their Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich declared, "It is written that the future of Jerusalem is to expand to Damascus," expressing a vision of a Jewish state stretching beyond current borders. When we think about the context in which statements similar to Smotrich's have been made, I can't help but feel Natalie's concerns about anti-Zionism seem a little misplaced in comparison. Also when someone suggests that leftist focus on Palestine 'may have slightly contributed' to Trump's re-election, or characterizes the movement's goals as primarily anti-Zionist rather than anti-genocide, many of us feel that's either a misguided take - confusing priorities or a disingenuous way of airing her own frustrations or grievances with us leftists. Because in her framing there's this me vs. them mentality that can be found in the subtext. This almost adversarial relationship with her own audience over a loud minority of leftists who have caused her harm, is as concerning to me as the harm itself. That's also why I mentioned JKR - she focused almost exclusively on the most extreme and harmful responses to dismiss all criticism of her anti-trans positions, and I worry something similar might be happening here, where the worst examples of criticism are being used to characterize the entire response as illegitimate mob behavior rather than engaging with the substantive concerns many supporters are raising. I hear your concern about righteous fury spilling over into moral retribution. I'm no fan of that either, to put it mildly. But I also think there's a difference between retribution and accountability, between harassment and good-faith critique. Most of what I've seen falls into the latter category, even if plenty of people have unfortunately crossed the line. I guess what I'm trying to say is: I think we want to protect people from harm while also maintaining moral clarity about ongoing atrocities. We might just disagree about how to balance those concerns, or about what the primary sources of harm are in this situation. I don't think either of us wants to see Natalie hurt, and I don't think either of us wants to see the discourse around Gaza become more toxic than it already is.

hey_boo

Love you, Natalie. Stay strong. Play some piano (or a harpsichord. Take care of yourself.

Woke's back on the menu boys(gender neutral)

Hey, I dont think your views on zionism are accurate or thought out well. I beleive you are against the genocide of Palestine. You dont deserve the volume of vitriol you're receiving. I understand that online "leftists" and liberals are annoying, but Twitter isnt reality, nor is it representative of the general public or consensus. I trust you to educate yourself and hope you take care of your mental health. Much love.

Me

Finally get around to watching the AMA, was surprised at the number of comments, and I find that Contra is getting cancelled again. Looked up the post that sparked it and as usual the whole thing is a storm in a teacup. Well, good luck Natalie, it'll all blow over eventually.

Cole

Nah, take that elsewhere

Ornithophobix

"The unfortunate truth is that probably the only people who can stop the genocide now are Israelis." https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/poll-show-most-jewish-israelis-support-expelling-gazans International sanctions, BDS, expulsion from the UN, canceling defense treaties and arms transfers, establishing no-fly zones, suspension of banking privileges. These are measures the rest of the world can and are legally obliged to take under the Geneva Convention to stop the rogue state of Israel from completing their genocide of the Palestinians. Any of these would be speedier and more immediately effective than waiting for the Israeli population to have their conscience awakened.

Cole

Really? Calling her Anita Bryant / JKR because she's opposed to the genocide and financially & vocally supporting the people of Palestine, but her take on the situation isn't exactly the same as yours? That's an absurd level of tunnel vision.

Chrombus

Guys. I don't like the exact fashion in which she expressed herself either. But it doesn't matter. She. Is. Just. Some. Random. Youtuber. Like.... People are dying? Save your guns for the gun fight.

Ryan Burke

That's a flippant demand, not a rebuttal

Hannah Katherine

Also here to say I support you I felt like I understood what you meant in the context of why you don’t want to make a video and your experience as a prominent person who has been getting bombarded by people telling you to make a video and sending you graphic stuff as a way to make their point. People seem to be taking your statement out of that context all together and acting like you just woke up and decided to say this out of the blue and have never said anything else on the topic. Typical internet behavior and I’m sorry this is happening to you again. It’s getting so obvious that when people on the left feel helpless politically they find a trans woman to attack. And to everyone criticizing you, lots of you are expressing fair opinions but I urge you to think about if you would talk to anyone else they way you are talking to contra right now. If your mom, friend, sisters random boyfriend, coworker said something similar would you immediately turn to that person and go “wow Zionist I’m never going to speak to you again” I doubt it. The idea that we don’t owe her the basic respect we would give a random coworker with a take on Palestine that we have some disagreements with because we all give her our $2 a month or whatever is insanity. And for the record I am someone who thinks Israel should exist I think it’s a murderous colonial project. But dismantling Israel is a huge undertaking, and in my opinion, secondary to getting the current violence happening to stop. We all agree on that, and that’s what we should focus on. The house is on fire, putting the fire out comes before deciding what type of new house to build post fire.

Hannah Katherine

*Shouldn’t exist. It’s really hard to edit comments in the app damn.

Alfred Jaremko Young

I fully support those things and personally advocate for them in my life. I hope those things happen and I hope it stops the killing, but I don't think it would be enough. Russia has all of those things against it and it continues to invade its neighbor. I also don't have much faith in the Israeli's conscience being awakened. They seem headed for full on theocracy at which point it might be too late.

Ornithophobix

With respect, Russia is a massive industrial powerhouse with huge reserves of population and land. Israel is tiny, has few natural resources, a dwindling population, and is kept afloat with US aid. It would fall apart if the international community applied the kind of pressure it did to Russia. Which it won’t because the west uses Israel as a bulwark against Iran. The problem is one of political incentives. But I agree with you that change isn’t coming from inside Israel.

Katie

Definitely. I'm responding here because I particularly like your comment and wanted to speak particularly to the political nihilism. I can only speak to my own experience here. But I can tell you that I saw a lot of people dying pretty horrific deaths on a regular basis for several years, not because anyone sent them to me online en masse, but because I did social work in a region with an infamously bad income inequality and social abandonment problem. And I developed some pretty globalized negative beliefs about the world. I haven't been in that field for about a year now, and it's not as extreme. I sleep, I eat, life doesn't feel like acute torture. But I still cannot bring myself to experience hope. A whole year later. I recognize the cause and yet, even having worked in mental health care for 7 years, and studied psychology and neuroscience for years before that, I cannot quite find the logic necessary to bring the hope back. It feels like it would be delusion. And I describe this because I think a reduction in hope is a pretty common experience for anyone who's experienced danger and regular exposure to the worst of the things that can happen to the human body. So I admittedly feel identified with anyone who has to see those things in large quantities in their inbox. Maybe that's parasocial/bad but it's just how I respond. Luckily for me, I don't live in the public eye, and I only really upset my husband with what I say, because he's with me. But Natalie's livelihood depends on being a public figure, and so everyone kept demanding a stance from her until she said what she was thinking, which I'm sure she didn't want to do - and yes, it's nihilistic, which is probably part of why she didn't originally express it. Not everyone is always in an emotional place that should be public-facing about every issue. I think right now if I had to publicize a lot of my views it would be a net negative for society because I spent a chunk of my life seeing more of the world as hellish than joyful and it had an impact on how I feel about the world. But I got to make that call easily, with nobody berating me about it. I think one of the most frustrating things about this situation is the conversation we could theoretically have had in this space - the actually important, good-faith one you spoke to in your comment, about how best to stop a genocide - is pretty much derailed now. I still want to have it. I want to talk about how political pressure (not mass direct gore-mailing youtubers, but yes, putting real footage out to inform the public) actually has likely made an impact, how we can keep doing it in a productive way...but it's just a pile-on now, and the important stuff will get lost in a slew of misplaced, gleeful schadenfreude. For now, I'll keep having that conversation elsewhere, outside of whatever corner of the internet this is, and hope that Natalie is able to...I don't know. Get through this. Be well. Whatever it is that might help her experience joy and hope, in the same way I hope that for everyone and for myself. (And again, was not referring to you as part of the pile-on at all! Just opportunistically jumping off of your description of political nihilism alongside good faith discussion of the issues at hand.)

Dihuh

I decided to sit down and watch this entire AMA to see if I could glean anymore insight from why you posted your reddit essay, and honestly it's a bit frustrating. You're beating yourself up way too much for the aftermath of the 2024 election. I mean this in the kindest way possible, but in the same way you don't believe that a video talking about I/P would help (which I agree with!), you making a video about voting for Kamala would not have saved us from our current horrors. I'm just one parasocial fan, but I wish you the best and to stay safe. My uncharitable advice is to get off the internet please, for your own mental health.

Katie

Death threats and coordinated mass-mailing of violent images are abuse. "Conflict is not abuse" was not written about actual death threats.

Ethaan

Hey Nat. Hope you’re doing okay 💙

Rose Dombegh

Also people are ignoring that she's also already said basically everything in that reddit post across various AMA streams. Her stance has not changed in a year; and no one got mad/publicly unsubscribed then. If anyone wants more context, go back to AMA stream #61 (yes, way back in August of 2024) around 40 mins in. She basically riffed the essay she just published on the spot. Her position has not changed, and what she says gives context to her post.

holdorz

Natalie, I can't even imagine how difficult it’s for you now with all these hateful comments… I hope your loved ones are with you and you’re doing okay

LilyFields

Here to support Natalie. She doesn’t owe us anything. I enjoy her content and I’m sure I will continue to do so as long as she chooses to continue to make it.

Edoardo

Hey Natalie, lots of thoughts I'd like to express but ultimately none of it matters. I just hope you are doing okay. Sending love.

symboi

I think all of the vitriol and anger you're receiving is deserved actually. You stayed silent during the most existential, consequential crisis of our time - watched as it was documented in excruciating detail by the people bravely surviving it against all odds - and decided to woke scold your audience's justified anger instead. I've been a huge fan for many years. I think you ultimately failed miserably to understand the depth of what we're up against. Fuck the constant alarm bells for antisemitism. What about the horrid Islamophobia that green lights the wholesale slaughter of MILLIONS of people in the Middle East by the hands of OUR OWN GOVERNMENT. Shame on you. Only sycaphants give a fuck about your feelings when it comes to this. People are fucking dying and it's not Jews

alex d

I said that I have limited ways of saying I don't support it. What should I do? Are you a kerosene salesman??

Xylem

Hi, Always liked your work. Resubscribing to offset all the absolute losers posting long walls of texts in this comment section.

symboi

Nor do they center their feelings in a time like this. I'm truly dismayed at this situation. Unsubscribed as well

symboi

THANK YOU!! This is the most sane take on this issue. I refuse to infantilize her and center her feelings and wellbeing in this moment. She did not have to speak on this and yet she did, and decided in this moment to defend the existence of a deeply documented ethnostate and woke scold her audience's justified anger. I find it profane, as someone who loved her and shared her anger and dismay over the JK Rowling ordeal. Now all of that reads like narcissism in hind sight. How can you fail to see the humanity in what Gazans are trying to show us right now? Two years of the most violent unmitigated horror, and somehow Natalie's feelings matter? Makes me sick.

symboi

thank you

Rita Balbo

Silence has always—and will always—serve the side of oppressor. There is no such thing as “neutrality” in the face of injustice. Of all people, Natalie should understand the urgency of intersectionality, allyship, and the moral imperative to speak out. It’s clear she holds opinions. She simply chose not to voice them. And when she finally did, she managed to say the worst thing imaginable: she essentially concluded (to paraphrase), “Palestinians would be dead either way, even if I had spoken up.” 🤦🏻‍♀️ Seriously? Her statement is a textbook case of too little, too late. And decades from now, she’ll likely claim, “I was always against it.” But you know what would have been more than enough? Just a clear, honest statement. Something like: “Genocide is wrong. Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza and illegally annexing the West Bank. Those complicit—governments, corporations, institutions—must be held accountable. Join the BDS movement. Free Palestine.” That’s it. No need for a 90-minute YouTube essay. No convoluted moral labyrinths. We already have extensive, in-depth content—Jessie Gender’s 4-hour video (https://youtu.be/zOmvJZCn-IE?si=PtKi00Tkq4JVjZW7 ) being just one example. What we needed from Natalie was solidarity. What we got was deflection. I’m actually wondering if i want to continue to be her patreon, because of how disappointing her statement/stance is.

Rita Balbo

Same (well not the transition part as I’m CIS).

Sam

she did actually post a statement thing on her reddit which says what you wanted her to say - if you have reddit read that one x

Rita Balbo

Well said. Thank you!

holdorz

“You stayed silent during the most existential, consequential crisis of our time” - this is bullshit lol🤡 She criticized Israel and donated money to the Palestinians. She didn't stay silent.

Rose Dombegh

Again. She said basically everything that was in that reddit post LITERALLY A YEAR AGO on a livestream (including the "woke scold" -- because I guess mother does not 'command,' she 'scolds'). Did anyone care then? No. I suppose because people would need to actually deeply engage with her in parasocial "dialogue" rather than skimming one post -- if most of us have even read it -- and then rage-posting here.

HAUNTER

I’m going to say here what I’ve said elsewhere, and I’m not entertaining debate about it. Forcing someone to make a statement and the berating them about their statement and saying they should have stayed silent is WILD. It’s gross of every content creator who made work about Natalie bc they know she has an army of anti-fans waiting in the wings for her to make even the smallest misstep that can be twisted into a leftist social flub, and to ignore this is to be oblivious to the raging course of transmisogyny both in this country and specifically that which is directed at her. There is a tide of misinformation about her out there that all of this directly feeds into, and all of these creators are capitalizing on it, not very leftist of them. People like Hasan (who I was just starting to warm up to after years of weird trans shit like this) would literally say that he would give Asmongold benefit of the doubt, and then tore into Natalie for over an hour, and vagueposted at her, giving permission for all of the people who look up to him and all of the channels that repost his clips to reframe this however they want. Like. The entire discourse has been warped around Hasan’s outrage and it’s fucking gross the way people just lap it up as fact. Natalie didn’t do what she did “for her brand.” That’s massively disingenuous. I hope some of yall get a grip, a hobby, some therapy, or whatever else you need to realize ONE trans woman is not going to save Palestine.

Katie

This makes a lot of sense. I think there’s a lot of conflation happening in thread between the good faith criticism and the death threats and harassment campaigns. Like you mentioned above, in this specific thread I definitely see more good faith criticism because we are on Patreon. I think the vast majority of what Natalie sees - and a lot of what I’ve seen out of this particular forum - is in the latter category, because harassment campaigns happen at high volume and are rewarded by social media algorithms due to salience. I don’t think it’s is fair at all to the good faith engagers and it sure as hell isn’t fair to the people of Gaza whose lives are on the line, but it’s one of the consequences of online discourse - the important conversation is drowned out in the perspective of both the creator and much of the audience and it impacts the perspective and ability to function of everyone involved. It’s incredibly sad on multiple fronts. I’m sad that the salience and volume of threatening and violating responses dominate Natalie’s experience of the conversation because she doesn’t deserve death threats or harassment it’s awful. and I’m infuriated by the distortion that has on the conversation. My anger is directed at social media incentives on full display and the people who profit from them, not the person who understandably finds it difficult to engage with the good faith conversation through the death threats and coordinated mail harassment.

a. j. archer

i actually read your statement and it was just fine queen. the hit dogs are hollering

Darren DM

Why do Leftists care so much about Palestine but so little about Nagorno-Karabakh? A 2023 ethnic cleansing met with abject silence. Picking who's oppression is worthy and who's oppression can be ignored should be absolutely anathema to anyone professing to believe in solidarity.

Ed Creedon

Free Palestine is not a trend. Our anger is justified and the correct response to the reality of what is happening. Shame on you. From a long time subscriber from Ireland.

Simon

geography and personal experience

Lambda

Dear Mother, I know you may not see this and kudos if you have taken the healthy approach and logged off, but if not, howdy howdy. I just want you to know you are loved and to take care first and foremost. In your I/P piece you brought up many points that I feel and agree with personally and others that we really do not see eye to eye on at all, especially related to doomer/defeatism in the activist movement. We agree it’s a Genocide. We agree a series of war crimes are ongoing. Lest we throw ourselves into the gears of the machine how are we to stop it if not by immense economic, social, and political force? We can not sit on our hands amidst moments like these. With the criticism you levy what actions should have been taken instead? It’s the beauty in open dialogue and continued conversation that we have with you in this platform to have the ability to discuss. You are forever my favorite creator. Lambda

Simon

I am still in oposition to Natalie's postion, but hope she is ok. i have been fixed to this thread for 48 hours, and i can only imagine how combative it is getting on X and Reddit. I believe Jordan Peterson, Graham Lineham, and JK Rowling would not have become quite so unpleasant and extreme, if not tor social media and money. I was concerned about her wellbieng after the hunger video, I am also concerned now. Dont do anything stupid you effete mincing liberal fuck ; You are possibly my favourite effete mincing liberal fuck.

Mobius Scarf

While I thought you were better off just not saying anything or better yet just doing a charity stream or something rather than posting your frustrations, I do understand the place you were coming from. Shit sucks out there right now, especially for trans people, and people demand a lot out of the people they like because they delusionally think that they can make it better. And yeah, the energy spent going after Zionism specifically ought to go towards theocracy and ethno-nationalism generally if we want to avoid that momentum getting hijacked by antisemites. But man, that post was super unnecessary and basically just comes off as bad faith Aaron Sorkin-esque liberal tone policing of people putting energy towards fighting genocide and apartheid. To put it another way, your initial instinct to not post about this was the correct one, and anybody that made you feel compelled to issue this kind of a statement didn't deserve one. Nobody in their right minds should want or expect a ContraPoints video on Palestine. Maybe a charity stream if one reached out to you for a signal boost, but this was clearly not in that wheelhouse. But in turn, no one in their right minds should post about why they aren't going to make a video on Palestine, and they certainly shouldn't spend half of it implicitly scolding leftists for not being more practical. We love you Natalie. Hope you're doing ok.

Rachel

Because the US is paying for the genocide with our tax dollars and American Jews who are overwhelmingly liberal and leftist are angry about what’s being done in our name.

Mikh

Thank you Katie, well said. I hear you and I'm with you. It's really sad on all fronts, like you said. I hope Natalie can find the headspace to take some comfort in knowing that many voices here on Patreon, but also elsewhere, are still in support of her as a person. It took me some time to consider but I decided to keep my subscription active and back her, at least for the time being, because I still want to believe in what she does and I understand the difficult circumstances around her online presence even better now thanks to people like Rose and others here on Patreon. My points and criticisms still stand however, but I hope this will turn out to be rather productive than overwhelmingly toxic in the end. I hope I'm not being too naive. [Update 4 days later] I'm going through the latest comments and it makes something very clear: This community is fractured. I wanted to stay because I believe in Natalie’s work and still respect her. But I'm not sure I can remain where dissent is treated like betrayal, but I also want to give Natalie another chance. I have always supported her, in every "controversy" or "drama", but this is something else. I don't know, at this point.

inhabitmoss

I've been watching Natalie's videos since 2018, and this entire time I honestly did not care about her take on Israel/Palestine or her relative silence. She did some charity streams which I thought was cool. Personally, I don't run around wondering why my favorite creators haven't spoken out about X issue. I don't watch or care about Hasan, and I don't watch videos by other people about Natalie. This isn't about any of that. This is about how after witnessing a genocide for two years, when she did decide to speak she made it about her personal gripes with the left. It's apathetic, it's myopic, and it's intellectually and ethically lazy.

Mikh

Thank you for this thoughtful and genuine post.

Xylem

Hi, Always liked your work. Resubscribing to offset all the absolute losers posting long walls of texts in this comment section. PS. To all the losers, bear in mind: "if you are not with me, you are against me" is an excellent way to set a lot of people against you.

Katie

Totally, I really hope so too. There are clearly people in this community who are able to disagree and challenge in a way that isn’t harassment and takes people’s humanity into account from all angles. I don’t think you’re too naive and I spend energy talking about these sort of vampiric engagement-maxing social media empires because I think a lot of people *are* more able to do the honest discourse than it seems when the incentive structure is geared toward the worst and least productive ways of treating each other. I hope we can make those changes to our ways of relating to each other in our lifetime, and I hope Natalie and all of us get to experience that reality (I also hope I’m not being too naive lol but like…I really do think there is coalition building potential outside of the rage optimization machines and that most would prefer coalition building to coordinated harassment campaigns.)

Rachel

The hate and harassment she’s gotten for years is truly abhorrent and unfair. And I deeply sympathize with it. I’ve defended her against the bad faith accusations. But a thousand angry terminally online tankies is truly not reflective of the entire political left. The leftists that are out on the streets protesting, raising money for Gaza, and throwing themselves in front of ICE vans don’t have time to be harassing and canceling YouTubers on Twitter. I wish she didn’t take those trolls so seriously.

I'm not Kevin Donoso

call me crazy but i dont think nat is responsable for solving the middle east. stay strong nat

Matt Quigley

I've been a member, more months than not (and for years at a stretch), since spring of 2019. I had stepped back for a bit, just to rein in my monthly expenses, but I feel duty-bound to offset whichever disingenuous, possibly functionally illiterate, and/or self-righteous patrons who have decided to take their leave of your community because no matter what you say they are insisting that you've said something else entirely. A number of people from whom I'd expect far more (far more generosity, far greater basic comprehension skills, far more willingness to disagree with someone whom they claim to respect) have really disappointed me here, but I do believe that this too will blow over, as it's a controversy predicated upon willful misreadings, blatant mischaracterization, and outright lies, mostly amplified by people who probably weren't your fans to begin with.

HAUNTER

“I’m upset with what I personally consider to be a tonal misstep so she deserves harassment from thousands of people” But *she’s* intellectually and ethically lazy

HAUNTER

Get help

Anthonknee

In what world is what Natalie said the "worst possible thing". Are you kidding me?? She literally acknowledged the genocide, opposes it, says the Palestinians are overwhelmingly the victims in the situation. She's given money to Palestinian aid organisations. She's checked the necessary, most important boxes. I don't understand why the online left won't carve out a bit of space for nuance (from a political entertainer), but CAN carve out EVEN MORE space to blast an ally. Strategic essentialism actually has to be ... you know ... strategic.

Chancellor Kingsmyth

I understand what you meant by your post, and I respect what you were trying to say... but there comes a point where one must choose a moral ground over just the "reality"... you could have led the people, and inspired... you gave nihilism and hid... you have no obligation to the people... but you could have been a leader ... not just a critic. Idealism is a dream ... buts what drives social evolution. Best wishes!

sude aydınoğlu

Remember the SNL Skit where people discover that Beyonce is black? Now we are realizing Natalie is a white American. I am from Middle East and trans. It was a bad take. You've been a very, very bad girl Gaga.

symboi

Her whole post is about her addressing her silence lol...She did some petty shit here and there, and when it finally came down to make a statement, she made arguments along the lines of some of the worst liberal Zionists. Her comments on the footage coming out of Palestine are genuinely freakishly awful. It's shocking to hear from someone as smart and as knowledgable about fascism as Natalie is. It is truly shameful.

Cole

"She should have said something sooner!" "she shouldn't have said anything at all!" "she should make another statement clarifying what she meant!" "she should be quiet and listen to marginalized people!" "she should grow a backbone!" "she should take a seat!" "I hope she listens to the criticism!" "I hope she disengages for a while!" "she's been so good on other issues!" "she's never stood for anything!" "she needs to apologize!" "she needs to shut up!".... Look, I get it. We all feel powerless in a world that is spiraling deeper into fascism and chaos and hate. We're all traumatized. We're all in pain. We're primed to feel betrayed. We all wish we could stop what's happening. Natalie clearly called for an end to the genocide and has raised and donated money to help protect the people of Gaza. I know you some of you want her to say & do more. I know some of you don't want her to say how she feels about the methods by which people protest. Personally there's plenty of things she said that I disagree with, and I wish she would get off Xitter because it seems to be unhealthy for her and for anyone who cares about justice or making the world a better place. Sadly, chastising her is going to harm your cause more than help it. Other artists are going to see this backlash and learn the lesson that some of you below have already observed -- Natalie would have been much better off not saying anything at all. And that's exactly what other artists are going to do when they see this reaction. Those of you who are cancelling your Patreon subscriptions... maybe that's for the best, because Natalie is never going to be what you want her to be. I hope you donate the money to a worthy cause.

Claudia

Resuscribing to offset the hate. You don't owe the internet anything. I am disappointed in Hasan and Kavernacle, my opinion of them is much lower now. They give the benefit of the doubt to plenty of horrible cis-men, but not a fellow pro-Palestinian. It sucks.

Matt Quigley

I left the below in response to a commenter down-thread, but rather than lock-horns with a specific individual, I'm just going to put it here instead. [I just had to edit out a section that directly referenced the comment to which I was responding.] -------------------------------------------------------- I'm highly reluctant to respond to this, in this forum. Natalie has indicated, in various forums, even prior to her statement on Reddit, that she believes what is happening in Palestine is a genocide and that the US continuing to arm and fund it is shameful. She found herself in a Twitter argument, that found traction, because she dared to call out the very real tendency of a lot of leftist conversation surrounding the genocide to carelessly veer into troubling anti-semitic tropes, conspiracy theories, and lies. In the Reddit statement she communicated, quite clearly I thought, that she understands that the very idea of anti-semitism has been weaponized by this genocide's defenders to silence all dissenting opinions. For this reason, it is all the more essential that those of us who oppose Israel's criminal apartheid and genocide in Palestine take special care to not give those who would silence us legitimate ammunition. I myself am not Jewish, but having grown up in NYC I've known a quite a few people who are, for my entire life. While I would simply not actively be friends with someone who supports the genocide in Palestine, I do have friends who support a two-state solution which is, definitionally, a Zionist position, even if in some cases their personal feelings are more informed by a sense of pragmatism -- what is politically feasible or realistic -- more so than a personal desire to preserve or protect the Jewish homeland. These are not evil people, their beliefs are not tantamount to Nazism, they do not belong to a shadowy cabal of elites who are pulling the strings of global affairs, or controlling the media. If what is happening in Palestine is an unspeakable atrocity being carried out in our names, they feel doubly responsible and disgusted. But, on some level, by some definition, they are Zionists. It's one thing if a Jewish person chooses to use Zionist as a slur, but as a non-Jew, I've tried to keep my vitriol focused on Israel, Netanyahu, the IDF, the Likud party, the Israeli government, or (where appropriate) Biden, etc. Also, there are a huge number of examples of Natalie decrying Islamophobia, in very specific ways. I suppose I could assemble a Google doc, or supercut, or something if you doubt me. Did Natalie really need to spell out in blunt terms that she opposed the genocide in Gaza? Not only did I hear her communicate as much, plainly, in various forums, I also took it for granted. I'm genuinely not sure what people wanted from her. Her statement was what it was because she was challenged regarding two specific things, her claims that anti-semitism, specifically on the left, was an issue that was going pretty much entirely unchallenged and that she, as a prominent progressive/left-leaning/leftist/"breadtube"/whatever creator was somehow conspicuously silent on the subject of Palestine. This conflict isn't complicated. Apartheid and genocide are not complicated. They are straightforwardly evil. Israel are, uncomplicatedly, "the bad guys." But that doesn't mean that a lot of the issues surrounding this matter, including how to solve it, aren't incredibly complicated. Granted, Bibi certainly simplified the first step that must be taken, which is ending this disgusting slaughter of innocents. But what happens after that? ------------------------------------------- I will add this here, to what I've copied and pasted above: I personally support a one-state solution, but I kind of support that in general, in response to all human conflict. The reality is, the people of Palestine deserve peace, prosperity, and self-determination. A lot of people far smarter than I have been trying to figure out how to achieve this for my entire life, and I certainly do not have the answers. But to be clear, I have never been the least bit hesitant to criticize Israel in the harshest possible terms, and anyone who calls me an anti-semite because of this can go to hell. I am not a fan of ethnostates, theocracies, nor settler colonial projects (acknowledging that I was born and have lived my entire life in one of the latter). This has been going on since decades before I was born, and I'd wager that the first time I ever heard the word "disproportionate" was in reference to an Israeli military response to a Palestinian attack. My feelings on Israel are not especially generous, but my feelings on Israelis are far more nuanced and determined on a person-to-person basis. This situation isn't complex, in terms of right and wrong, but it is complex in terms of real, meaningful, lasting solutions. A one-state solution sounds perfect, but to accomplish this without displacing the nearly 45% of the world's Jewish population who currently lives on that land would take a Palestinian Mandela type figure, who could oversee that fraught transition -- which would be beset by violence from extremists on all sides -- with minimal bloodshed. It's easy to type the words "one-state solution," on the internet, but doing so may be the least meaningful thing I'll do today.

Matthew Nissen

Hey I'm a broke grad student and I just subscribed today to show support. Been a fan for a long time and this "controversial" post made me respect you even more. Hope you're well

Emily Reeves

I agree — you don't have to do a video about I/P and mine the issue into content. I plan to remain a subscriber; however, as a long-time fan of your work, I am extremely disappointed to see your defeatist take on the greatest atrocity of our time. As Americans, our government is funding a genocide; whether or not protest or outrage will change policy, it is right to be outraged. To conflate speaking out about the atrocities with antisemitism is dangerous. I agree that leftists' infighting and making 'perfect the enemy of good' causes us to lose, but believing we cannot make change is also a losing strategy.

Sam

For real. Like, there are parts of her post that are kinda dogwater, but it feels like most people reacting to it even in this very thread just completely misunderstood what she said.

liv

is she being harassed? maybe on twitter, certainly not in her patreon comment section. she is allowed to post her opinions publicly, people are allowed to vocally disagree with her

liv

hasan didn't harass her either. if natalie didn't want backlash for her opinions on I/P she shouldn't have posted them. you seem to think natalie should be able to say whatever she wants without any discussion or criticism. absurd.

HAUNTER

It’s very rational and emotionally stable to go into someone’s completely separate patreon post and make disparaging comments bc saying them in any other forum isn’t intimate enough and you just *need* to know that she sees it. Fucking please.

Ginny

Contra, I absolutely love your content, I've followed you for a long time, and will continue to be a paying patreon member. I think you have such valubale takes and of course I won't always agree. I think there's a lot of literature you can read on this topic (as I'm sure you've already done) but I think from a sensitivity perspective, your comments could have been split up into 2 different posts at two different times. Playing a "yes, but" on a Genocide is kinda... well... poorly timed. Besides some misnomers in your post, I think this whole thing shows your frustration with leftists, and has very little to do with Palestinian struggle. If we were friends, and you read me your post before you posted it I would say: "Kim, there's people that are dying" . The push back against zionism (an inherently christian fascist political ideology) is the same source of fascism and therefore the same fight that the US is facing on it's own turf. And if Americans are unable to understand that... God speed.

Weam

Thank you for your recent statement about I/P on Reddit. It took guts to release a statement when no one had been hounding you directly (I assume). Your Jewish and Jewish-allied supporters won't forget this show of compassion, truth, and solidarity. I'm grateful to see *anyone* influential online on the left talking about pragmatism when it comes to this conflict, when I think that should be the main thing we care about. A culture against coalition, a lack of knowledge of history, and a lack of knowledge of foreign policy have produced a terrible outcome for so many people. I really encourage you to not give up on clarifying what exactly you've said and why those misinterpreting you are doing so. It absolutely exhausts me to see the way in which people's words get twisted by redigested TikTok-ified oversimplifications, but at this point the only way to avoid it seems to be repeating yourself over and over. Your supporters (and the people they will show your work to) will be listening. Good luck.

Luis Enrique

Hi Natalie! sending you a hug, positivity and good vibes! I hope you are taking care of yourself and you are in a good headspace right now. I love your work and admire you tremendously. P.S. I watched Santa Sangre because of your "non-recommendation", and goddam!! what a GEM! exquisite taste mother

creak

yes, and we should do that for nazis

ts_babyjane

sending my love. ive watched u for a long time ur a smart and good person. people refuse to put ur words into context with ur body of work, and they misinterpret everything u say.

Gart Kundalini

thanks for saying what i've been thinking -- don't let the idiots grind you down

Ying Xiang Tan

I just need you to know that I continue giving you money for the same reason I continue subscribing to the New York Times

Hunter Hylton

Hi Natalie, I adore your work and know this must be a tough time. Please ignore this if you happen to see it in the middle of feeling dogpiled. It is a criticism, but I believe it is a good faith one. After reading your statement, I am certain that you have faced abuse from activists for Palestine, and I cannot imagine how it feels to be faced with that, especially after multiple prior harassment campaigns. It’s awful, and it should never happen in the pursuit of any cause. But the idea that online leftist activism has done nothing (or even potential harm) for the war in Gaza could not be more incorrect. I knew regrettably little about this issue before the recent wave of activism. The average person is learning much more about what our government supports overseas than they have since Iraq and Afghanistan, and, as evidenced by public response to those wars and Vietnam, that is a major stepping stone to its eventual end. It is atrocious and indefensible, as our military pursuits almost always are. I don’t say this because I think you don’t know it or disagree, I say it because I think your experience of abusive people in the movement has distracted you from it. The criticisms you are making towards activism for Palestine remind me of common criticisms you called out as bogus in The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling. Abuse should never be upheld in an activist movement, but it also should not be held up as exemplary. It truly saddens me that you have been the brunt of so much abuse by this movement, but that does not make it an unworthy cause. I ask you to please separate your interpersonal experiences from your thinking on the goals of this movement, or alternatively, consider the great people doing the work in a brave, respectable way, such as your frequent collaborator Matt Bernstein.

HAUNTER

“I’m mad about her tone so she literally deserves everything that is happening to her right now” —literal sociopath shit. Get a psychiatrist and stop posting

inhabitmoss

Hi, please point to the part where I said she deserves harassment from thousands of people. Quickly.

inhabitmoss

I came here because I originally left a comment about how I'm unsure if I personally can keep contributing financially to her Patreon. So yes, I came to the Patreon that I pay to access. Still debating whether or not to continue paying, because I still like her. Then I scrolled down and saw your comment and responded. I think emotional stability is being able to recognize fair critique of the public words of a public figure without having an absolute meltdown tantrum. She isn't God.

inhabitmoss

I agree with this take wholeheartedly. Hope Natalie is doing okay.

william kirkpatrick

I want to say something about the explosions on youtube. Nobody knows how to make Netanyahu & co. stop murdering innocent people en masse. The word "zionism" always had a slippery possible dogwhistle connotation and just should not be used. People getting outraged at Natalie is exactly like the outrage at Hannah Arendt for studying how Jewish leaders collaborated with the Nazis and the Banality of Evil remains as it is clearly enunciated in the new PBS show about Arendt: not being conscious of what other people are going through. We could have had Kamala as president and then the genocide would continue but instead we have a man who is thrilled to pick up a baseball bat and join Netanyahu's crew of sadistic bigots....so I just want to step back avoid left wing ranting or any other kind of ranting and quietly consider what to do......Leave the US? probably the best statement. How? Why? Where? This is something that can quietly be figured out over a long period of time, not self-centered ranting, or trying to destroy the only youtuber who also qualifies as one of the great filmmakers and actually performs the work of giving hope to the hopeless, making life seem meaningful and glamorous where it was not before.

Rita Balbo

As a public figure, her statement is exactly that—a carefully chosen public gesture. Yet many are projecting onto it meanings it simply does not contain. In truth, she is making a case for silence, for inaction, and ultimately for maintaining the status quo. The only thing she’s actively advocating is doing absolutely nothing. Worse still, she refers to certain Zionists as “decent people,” thereby legitimizing not only their ideology but the very existence of a pariah state built on ethnic supremacy and dispossession. She invokes the tired myth of a “two-state solution”—a proposition repeatedly disproven by history, geography, and power dynamics. A two-state solution is not just unworkable; it is an oxymoron when one of those “states” was founded on—and continues to operate with—genocidal intent and ethno-nationalist supremacy. So what does this really reveal? It reveals where she stands. She’s not neutral. She’s not confused. She’s a Zionist. Have any of you actually read what she wrote?

Hayden

I didn't agree with the latest, but Contrapoints is forever my mother and my queen

Cristina

Hope you are well! Take care 💝

Alfred Jaremko Young

Israel isn't a pretend state that will just disappear if allies cut ties with it. It doesn't need foreign aid to do what its doing. It already has nuclear weapons and will probably be producing most of its own conventional arms in the next 10 years. Not going to fall apart any more than Russia has.

E

Don't let these comments glazing delude you into thinking you're in the right. You're a spineless, grifting coward who's unbridled selfishness usurps your concern for human life - AND you're bad at optics! God forbid you injure yourself spiritually by making a video about the history of the conflict and using your platform and privilege to do your best to help colonized peoples. No, that's much too hard and uncomfortable and it's totally okay to do little to nothing, center yourself, and then attack people that aren't so cowardly they defend genocide.

william kirkpatrick

I want to say again that Natalie is not defending genocide.....she can't get a bathtub with netanyahu like jordan petersen because jordan petersen is just a foolish insane clown and netanyahu is an actual mass murderer. Leveling all this rage on Natalie is narcissism ....calling Natalie a narcissist is uber-narcissist. She just wanted to say something about Palestine. A mistake since so many people confuse activism with stroking themselves and feeling superior to .....people who ARE superior

smolmags

it is upsetting to see ppl do exactly what she said and take her statement out of context. She did call it a genocide. Said she donated to Palestine, etc. With that being said, the part that bothered me a lot was going out and punching towards leftists for no reason. I understand that you’re afraid (goddesses know I am too) but the pandering for establishment democrats that have displayed and continue to display a rampant refusal to actually care about the rights of trans people. No one is coming to save us and even if Kamala won, these attacks on us wouldn’t have let up or disappeared. This doesn’t even extend solely to trans people because democrats have done nothing to stop the endless attacks on reproductive rights and immigrants under the guise of “states rights”, some of these cases literally using pre-reconstruction legislation to substantiate their actions. I’m not saying that you gotta advocate for our antifa overlords and call for direct action ofc, just please understand why ppl have dwindling faith in this establishment as its only a matter of time before they put all of us in detention for being dissidents if we don’t do anything to fight against it. You’re probably not going to read this and I don’t blame you for it, but please understand that amongst the sea of bad faith criticisms that have been directed your way as a result of this incident of you feeling the need to be as transparent as possible of your beliefs, there are folks with valid points and perspectives. I mean I’m literally cancelling my subscription because I’m at risk of being homeless! So please try to at least take something from this that doesn’t cause another pivot that alienates your followers. You made me a leftist, but I feel like I’ve yet to see you truly become one.

E

Why are you disingenuously framing this, like Natalie did, as something she would only be capable of addressing via flippant, trivializing non-sense? She was able to push out an ineffectual, poorly-lit 20 minute video about voting for Biden while nodding off on opiates... Pretty sure she'd be capable of making a video about the history of the occupation and imperialism as well

Joseph Magliocca

Now this is criticism of Natalie I can mostly get behind. I am less critical of her than you but I sympathize with your arguments. I have mixed feelings about comparing her to Rowling (Natalie isn’t spewing hatred for Palestinians day in and day out like Rowling does for trans people) but I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable.

Joseph Magliocca

Where did she say she supports the genocide? Unless you are saying that you inherently support genocide if you don’t support the dissolution of the state of Israel (and I think you are), but may I remind you that Germany and South Africa still exist.

Joseph Magliocca

Those are all good things that Israel deserves, but is there any chance anyone will do it without the US’s backing?

Joseph Magliocca

This seems like one of the better faith responses to her statement, so I feel I can ask you in good faith, are you saying that you must support the dissolution the state of Israel to be an anti-Zionist? If so, how does that square with Germany and South Africa still existing? Israel’s image with the world has justifiably never been lower, but I but a very large number of people calling for the end of the genocide don’t support dissolving the state. Are all such people Nazis?

Hunter Hylton

I was more referring specifically to her critcism of the protest methods being focused on an abusive tactic she bore the brunt of. I don’t think this was her intention, but it came off to me as her painting the entire movement as in line with those actions. This reminded me of her criticisms of Rowling and others who constantly handwring about “illiberal methods.” I think disavowing explicitly abusive tactics is important for leaders of any movement concerned about justice to do, but I also think spotlighting them as exemplary is dishonest. Again, I don’t believe that was her intention, but the statement feels reductive and defeatist towards a movement that I truly believe can and will contribute to improving conditions in Gaza. Honestly, I’ve found some of her recent tweets and jokes in videos to have a general vibe of “what can I do? I’m giving up and libbing out.” I can’t blame anyone for feeling doomerism atm, but I also hope she doesn’t fully succumb to that line of thinking. Her work has been very galvanizing and empowering to me personally, and I’m sure many people here feel the same. If her heart isn’t in that amount of proselytizing anymore, I’d understand, but I also think it’d be a damn shame.

Alfred Jaremko Young

Cut ties with Israel? Sure. Its already happening because, as I keep saying, other countries have agency. US backing means less and less every day anyway. And cutting those ties actually gives Israel less disincentive to pursue unhinged wars, not more.

Rachel

Zionism isn’t exactly like Nazism, they’re not comparable, even though many Zionists act and think like Nazis. Some don’t act and think like Nazis and do believe in the humanity of Palestinians. These are so-called “liberal Zionists” that believe in a two state solution, but liberal Zionism is a fundamentally flawed and contradictory ideology. Because you cannot reconcile ethnonationalism with liberal democracy. So-called “liberal Zionists” are either mistaken about what Zionism is, as defined by its original and early adopters and its contemporary adherents, and/or they’re just doing mental gymnastics trying to reconcile their liberal values with an illiberal ideology. Having an ethnostate inevitably results in apartheid. Israel is a settler colony because it was created by mass Jewish emigration with the intention of creating a Jewish state on top of a land that was multi-ethnic and multi-religious for millennia. It was founded upon the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of 700,000 Palestinians in 1948, and is maintained by Jewish immigration, ongoing ethnic cleansing, and a ban on allowing Palestinians to return. There’s no legitimacy to this state. To be anti-Zionist is to reject this ideology, this colony, and call for the dissolution of Israel. This doesn’t mean expulsion of all the Jews (don’t let the western tankies tell you that to be anti-Zionist you need to call for all settlers to depart the colony. Most Palestinians don’t even call for that, not even Hamas.) Israel must be replaced with one democratic state for all peoples in the land. There are also a lot of reasons why Zionism is an antisemitic ideology but that’s for another time. Zionism has a lot of far reaching negative implications on Jews as well. I appreciate Natalie’s commitment to combating antisemitism as exemplified in the Conspiracy video, and her defense against antisemitic trolls on Twitter, but she falls short in that commitment by not engaging with Zionism critically.

Rachel

As far as Germany and South Africa existing, well no state has the “right to exist.” States don’t have human rights. People have the right to exist. And when the state fails to serve its people, it should be dismantled. South African apartheid was dismantled. Germany was also dismantled at the end of WWII! People tend to overlook this fact.

Wesley Costa

Hi, Natalie. I hope you are well and taking care of yourself. I am your friend! Hugs from Brazil.

Rachel

Ugh I keep coming back to this thread and maybe it’s parasocial of me but Natalie I genuinely hope you are okay and at some point you find yourself able to read the good faith criticisms from your long time supporters who still care about you but are in opposition to your statement and your position on Israel and Zionism. Ultimately I don’t think it is your job to make a video about Palestine, I actually think non-Palestinians and non-Jewish creators do not have anything more to add to the discourse and should just point to Palestinian and anti-Zionist Jewish content creators and educators. I actually wish you hadn’t taken the bait to make a post about it at all. But now knowing your (disappointing) stance, I hope you take the opportunity to actually get educated on Zionism, Israel, and Palestine because there’s an enormous body of scholarship on it, instead of relying on your perceptions of it based on people who harass you. The leftists raising money for Gaza and throwing themselves in front of ICE trucks don’t have time to be keyboard warriors and harass trans YouTubers. I hope you take some time to like log off. And don’t do anything stupid. Be well.

Tomme

she said she supports sanctions against israel in the statement, an explicit endorsement of BDS

Tomme

conflating republicans and democrats at this moment is delusional gurl like *this* is why she's criticizing the left

Tomme

We love you and support you Natalie <3

Tomme

you don't think she made a decision, as a well to do white woman, that she had nothing unique to contribute to the discussion on the greatest crime of our time, and decided using her platform to fundraise via streams rather than turning the genocide into content was the more moral choice? No you don't, because you seem to believe a fucking genocide is content. It's not, and it's not the sort of stuff that ends genocides. That takes organizing and winning actual fucking power, like Zohran Mamdani, who ran and won in the Democratic fucking party because Democrats are turning on Israel. That's whats makes a difference, not any more content milling of settler colonialism

ijbol

What an odd thing to say. Shame on you for dredging up someone's struggles while claiming the moral high ground. Like this is the part about Contrapoints haters I can never understand. Your disagreements with her political standpoint (occasional support of electoralism/establishment Dems, insufficient action towards Palestinian activism, ...) and how appropriate a medium her videos are for serious/non-entertaining topics---opinions which you are entitled to have---can all be argued for without having to be immature (disparaging her video quality) or vile (bringing up a horrible situation she just recently got out of). Genuinely baffling how you can do all that in the same comment accusing someone else of "disingenuous framing". Is this really how the pursuit of justice compels you to act? Perpetual bad faith? Please stop this. For one thing it's ineffective, and also I'd like to believe you're better than this.

william kirkpatrick

I cannot stand reading this....."Good Faith Criticisms".....Natalie is not the US gov. She shouldn't have said anything at all. The issues that Natalie champions are universal. Netanyahu is a fascist. Justice is a youtube about what is going on in Palestine. Cops. Occupational force, Cops. Natalie has done a great service to humanity and hope and it makes me sick that people are talking down to her because she wrote a few paragraphs out of politeness about a youtube video she cannot visualize.....and people are trying to take a metaphorical axe to her neck for that reason

Cole

Wow @E, your entitlement is fucking astounding. Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit.

Cole

"She should have said something sooner!" ... "She shouldn't have said anything at all!" "She should make another statement clarifying what she meant!" ... "She should be quiet and listen to marginalized people!" "She should grow a backbone!" ... "She should take a seat!" "I hope she listens to the criticism!" ... "I hope she disengages for a while!" "She's been so good on other issues!" ... "She's never stood for anything!" "She needs to apologize!" ... "She needs to shut up!" Look, I get it. We all feel powerless in a world that is spiraling deeper into fascism and chaos and hate. We're all traumatized. We're all in pain. We're primed to feel betrayed. We all wish we could stop what's happening. Natalie clearly called for an end to the genocide and has raised and donated money to help protect the people of Gaza. I know you some of you want her to say & do more. I know some of you don't want her to say how she feels about the methods by which people protest. Personally there's plenty of things she said that I disagree with, and I wish she would get off Xitter because it seems to be unhealthy for her and for anyone who cares about justice or making the world a better place. Sadly, chastising her is going to harm the cause more than help it. Other artists are going to see this backlash and learn the lesson that some of you below have already observed -- Natalie would have been much better off not saying anything at all. And that's exactly what other artists are going to do when they see this reaction. Those of you who are cancelling your Patreon subscriptions... maybe that's for the best, because Natalie is never going to be what you want her to be. I hope you donate the money to a worthy cause.

Cole

@E, get the fuck outta here with that hateful bullshit. If you think her videos are so bad, what the fuck are you doing here? Did you really just spend money to come try to harass a trans woman who's not going to read your shitty, bad-faith comment anyway?

Rachel

I know she is against the genocide and occupation and Netanyahu. The people who are saying she isn’t are bad faith actors. My issue is that she supports Zionism. That’s the problem. If you really learn what it is, it is not a defensible ideology. That’s what is disappointing, she didn’t engage critically with this before just making a statement and taking a stance. Shes just a person and humans are not perfect, but I expected more because of how well researched her content usually is.

hey_boo

@firstperson And you’re a freak who pays to harass a trans woman. Fuck you.

william kirkpatrick

thank you Cole.......wow I had a momentary panic where I thought Cole is saying I am one of the Natalie-abusers......it looked like that on my email in my phone....SO now I just want to say thank you Cole. Yes. What is going on here is infantile "leftist" narcissists are slapping around a trans woman verbally, textually, who is brilliant and hardworking

william kirkpatrick

I really don't want to see any replies to what Cole just said. Thats it. Thats all that needs to be said.

Rachel

I don’t agree with her position, but this ain’t it. She is a white woman in the global north, even if she believed in the dissolution of the Zionist state, which I think she would if she actually did her homework on Zionism and read the academic scholarship on it instead of going by what Twitter trolls say, she actually has nothing to add to the discourse and time would be better spent telling her audience to listen to Palestinians and anti-Zionist Jews and raising money for Gaza. Which she has raised money for Gaza. I’m pretty disappointed that things didn’t go this way, but no she doesn’t owe anyone a 20 minute video on Palestine. Her being misinformed is not the same as being a “spineless coward.” Ask yourself what purpose this vitriol serves. Not to mention your comments marginalizing drug addiction are gross.

Rachel

@tomme for real, there’s actually a ton of people grifting off making content about Palestine like Rathbone who actually is an antisemite and is a rape apologist, but no one is calling them out on it.

william kirkpatrick

alright I don't want anybody else to say anything but Lizzo on Ziwe just popped up on my youtube and its inspiring.....and most-of-all I cannot wait for Natalie's brilliant rebuttal.....or maybe she just will go on to something else....what this is really all about is people making up stuff in their head without any concern for the effect their actions have on reality.....like, the guy who put a pie in Anita's face......I will never unsee that and that is why all these people insulting Natalie disturbs me so deeply because it is through that I understood that political activism is about defeating the enemy and that is what needs to happen with Netanyahu and Trump and Putin. Running around waving flags and yelling never accomplished anything......there is a website called Tesla Takedown that looks honorable and I am sure there are countless honest people cutting into Netanyahu the best way they can but not Natalie-bashing......this is just like how Chappel Roan was called a Trumper ......the personality of people bashing Roan for refusing to endorse Kamala and the personality of someone bashing Natalie for not saying that ......I don't need to spell it out. There is no excuse for Roan-bashing or Natalie-bashing. FUCK YOU

E

I've been subscribed to this patreonfor years... I'm an ex-fan who is rightfully upset that she's defending a state that is murdering civilians en masses in a literal genocide and it has absolutely nothing to do with her being trans

Rose Dombegh

Adding to this -- as the Reddit mods have pointed out, Natalie's statement wasn't an invitation for debate or a call for pressure, but a boundary that we should respect.

Rose Dombegh

Adding to this -- as the Reddit mods have pointed out, Natalie's statement wasn't an invitation for debate or a call for pressure, but a boundary that we should respect.

william kirkpatrick

thank you Rose. I hope I don't see any more ugliness here. My takeaway from this is I personally will not engage in any more left wing ranting for the sake of my own narcissism because I see how terrible it is people insulting Natalie, giving unsolicited advice, acting like its her fault people are being burned alive in Palestine because she thought she could politely placate people demand she take down Netanyahu like she did others when actually it just shows she understands that Netanyahu is more of a bloodthirsty monster than anybody she could have a good time making fun of

Bryony Eilish Porteous-Sebouhian

Natalie, I hope you are looking after yourself and in a lot of ways hope you don't even see this comment but in the very unlikely circumstance that you do, firstly, hope there are people around you who can support you and talk this all through in a level headed, productive way for you. I have a lot of empathy and sympathy for you, but as many others have said, there are some legitimate and fair criticisms of your statement that I think warrant consideration, time and reflection. I'm not here to talk about those things because I'm not an expert in them. Something I am more of an expert in however is trauma. Trauma responses are self-centred, a triggered response is self-centred, because of course it is. And I'm not talking Internet triggered here, I'm talking real trauma triggered. It's an important response that deserves time, understanding and attention from yourself and those around you. Receiving countless death threats from those on the same, broad political side as you is traumatising. Being ousted, demonised and villainised by your community is traumatising. More than anything I hope that you can take time to really process that before saying anything else. I'm not a black and white person with these things and I'm not about to instantly reject you and turn you into some kind of final boss to defeat and I think the majority of people who love your content and your perspectives probably feel the same. But having a trauma response and centering that in the context of one of the 21st centuries worst atrocities is a mistake. Hopefully you'll see that eventually. All the same, I really do hope you can take care of yourself through this, and allow yourself to be taken care of by those around you.

julia

Please take care of yourself x

Jamie Stout

E, this is not the space for you, my friend. Respectfully, I am asking you to leave.

Bogo

Love your work and I’m staying right here.

Cole

@E Doesn't matter how long you were subscribed or were a fan, coming here to drag up her history of struggling with addiction, call her names, and attack her integrity and character is shitty behavior. Not to mention you've completely misunderstood what she wrote if you say she's "defending" the genocide.

Cole

@William Kirkpatrick ... It looked that way because "E" changed their username (it was previously "First Person" so I replied to them @First Person), I've edited my comments now to "@E".

GWR498

Not going anywhere Natalie. You’ve survived it before; you can do it again. Sending love from the universe.

Zsuzsanna Aradi

Hi, I just wanted to say that I think the criticism is really unfair to you. Stay strong, love you 💙

Sophie!

This is a great comment

Julia Gorochovskij

Hey Natalie, hope you are taking care of yourself. Have been a subscriber for many years and your content is wonderful, inspirational, thought-provoking and entertaining 🖤 Much love from Berlin

Wesley Costa

Natalie, please eat well and take care of yourself. Don’t chase the dragon, chase Spyro.

synthesis

I dont have twitter Im so sorry, what happened?

Rose Dombegh

Natalie released a short essay on Reddit about why she has not and will not make a video about Israel/Palestine. In essence: the conflict is "devoid of any element that could be appropriately transformed into political entertainment." She explicitly said that she thinks Israel is committing genocide, and that she opposes it. She also explained her personal feelings -- anger, doom, misery, dread, and bitterness -- in response to both the violence and how it's been discussed & disseminated on social media. At least in my reading, people are taking these personal feelings and her reasons for not making a video as an authoritative political statement about the conflict that they're trying to persuade her to change.

symboi

Who cares! She doesn't care if Palestinians are okay because she's worried about how it might affect her LOL

symboi

She doesn't owe us anything and we don't owe her a platform either. She clearly doesn't deserve one after a ghoulish statement such as this

Mackenzie Nicholson

Soooooo many people who refuse to think pragmatically for two seconds together, are allergic to nuance, and think they can treat people on the internet in ways they would NEVER treat someone in real life. It's true that content isn't activism, but Natalie has still done more for leftism (INCLUDING direct aid for Palestinians) than most of these mouth-breathing harassers ever will. Natalie doesn't owe anyone anything. I hope she can unplug and is surrounded by IRL people who love her. The fans worth having will still be here.

Brendan

It seems like a lot of online leftists have been waiting for a moment exactly like this to fully unleash all this hate, all of the twitter posting the past few weeks kind of created a situation where there was this animosity bubbling under for a while, so it isn't suprising to see so many people take yr words and assume the absolute worst things possible and interpret what you were trying to say so bizarely. A lot of the people accusing you of 'making this all about yrself' after 'refusing to speak on the situation for years' do not know that you have spoken up about it and defended pro-palestine protesters before, and raised money for Gaza relief, probably more than most ever could. They also don't realize that this isn't you just coming out of the woodworks to decide to make a bleak situation like this about yr feelings, it's because you've been getting harrassed with zionist and genocide support accusations for months that are blatantly bad faith assuptions. Like that cracked out twitter squirrel that goes on a weekly rant where they make threads cursing you out that get thousands of likes each lmao. I know that you come from a place of extremely extensive research and good faith attempts at being accurate, and you have many years worth of experience studying these kinds of subject matters, so I still enjoy hearing what you have to say. I read yr statement and understood where were you were coming from, and I didn't think it was anything that crazy. So I'm kind of taken aback by the backlash it's getting. I'm like wtf is going on... people are crazy. I think when you deleted twitter the first time a few years back, that was the best decison and I wish the app wasn't so god damn tempting so you could have just stayed off it permanently lol, but I get it, I also doomscroll. Hope you are okay through all this, honestly after you finish the book report tangent I would stay off the internet for a few weeks, this shit rots the brain

yaoibunga

because it has been funded and armed by the united states and because israel is only able to exist because of billions of dollars in aid each year from the US. obviously that's why. did you not think about this issue for even a moment?

william kirkpatrick

I just thought I would check out if any assholes are posting abominable things here....and good ....I don't see anything.now.....so if you are an abominable asshole please leave Natalie alone. I guess you all just decided to unsubscribe. I think everyone should get their friends to subscribe ......shit......make a new friend who can watch The Darkness with for the first time with you.....I have no idea how it feels to be Natalie .......I can only guess its that sting from getting fired from a job by an asshole when actually you wanted to quit all along.....but it still stings. Maybe her present silence is just because if she says anything she will enflame the assholes. Don't enflame assholes. I am still working on Bach/Busoni chorale prelude 4 in G major to play for her. I am also checking out Shaun's youtube about Palestine and I don't know why I did not before and its what all you assholes should do instead of harassing our sweet girl. There is already an awesome youtube about Palestine. Just because someone has talent, sees deep into the collective unconscious and intuits what people want to see on the screen you have to berate her. Make your own youtube about Palestine, assassinate Trump and Bibi, but leave Nataie alone!

Simon

I don't think all this arse kissing would do anyone any good, the statement was factually incorrect and was born of privilege not pragmatism.

william kirkpatrick

o I forgot.... Natalie articulates the proper spirit that political activism IS force, its the pie in Anita's face, a show of force, however nonviolent the enemy must be destroyed by force, a nonviolent force that harms and incapacitates them somehow without violence, kind of like tariffs. OMG

Cole

But you think coming here to call people ass-kissers will do some good somehow? If you don't like people expressing support for Natalie, what are you even doing here, in a space for... supporters of Natalie?

Toni Zadravec

Not going to go into detail here, the entire situation has of course escalated beyond reason. And yes, the backlash is unjustified, although expected. I hope you are taking care of yourself.

Chrombus

The right stays united while the left collapses in on itself because somebody mentioned antisemitism a slightly incorrect way. And that's why it takes two centuries to legalize gay marriage.

Chazie

It does not do anyone good to completely shield them from criticism. If we're still in this comment section we're still supporting her, please acknowledge that criticising someone doesn't mean we don't respect them, on the contrary I personally hope she changes her mind on some aspects of the statement she made, she has been known to help her audience change their minds about certain topics so why shouldn't we encourage her to listen to (reasonable) criticism? Criticism doesn't always come from hate. In the past she has actually changed her mind about things she was criticised for, why can't it be possible this time? At the same time, I really hope Natalie is doing well and has people in her close circle taking care of her.

Rose Dombegh

Sending love, Natalie -- hope you're doing alright.

hey_boo

Shut up and learn to read. FFS she didn’t say that and you’re just being a troll. You are saving exactly ZERO Palestinians by harassing a trans woman.

hey_boo

You’re a despicable person.

hey_boo

Hey. Fuck off

hey_boo

Are you kidding? Yes she’s being harassed in her own Patreon

Wesley Costa

Daily Nyatalie checking here! 🐱I hope you are fine, cat girl! Send us news as soon as you are feeling comfortable

Sam

I also feel the criticism of "making it all about yourself" is kinda disingenuous when the post is put in context. A bunch of people on twitter wanted to know why she wasn't publishing a video and what her feelings on I/P were. Asking for a post about her feelings then complaining when it's about her feelings is wild.

nekomusumeninaritai

Hopefully you have continued to cultivate a support group outside of “online leftists” as you put it in your cancelling video and don't need this comment, but the first I heard of this “controversy” was when I loaded this page. Edit: This is an indication of support. I think that some of the concern I see below, while understandable, is a bit premature. Surely not being online for a bit is perfectly reasonable.

Cole

Praising and expressing appreciation for Natalie is not shielding her from criticism. Frankly I wish I could shield her from criticism but that's not something any of us have the power to do, gorge. And accusing us of ass-kissing because we have a different opinion than you is not going to change anyone's mind.

Grant

Fuck off.

slightlyedi

Been rewatching a lot of your videos because they bring me comfort in these difficult times. I hope you know how much insight you’ve brought to so many people. Always looking forward to whatever you make next. ❤️

Neil

Leftist bullying & ideological purity tests that seem very cultish. Meanwhile Natalie has been quietly donating to pro-Palestine charities that are themselves campaigning & doing whatever they can to help, likely having more impact than bullies posting comments aimed at coercing her to respond the way they insist. Helps no one. Go away.

Aif

I love this comment, my friend and I have posted it in our group chat as a wonderful take on the whole saga - very psychologically astute, while still has such a sense of proportion/perspective. Thank you!

synthesis

Ohhhh okay, thank you for the explanation!

Rose Dombegh

Also, speaking from the "I" perspective is a way to avoid making authoritative-sounding erroneous statements about situations you're not personally involved in/don't have expertise on. Nat does it all the time in her videos; it lets her acknowledge that she's only speaking for herself and then explain her intuitions/reactions. It's what we learn to do in school (and therapy) to manage conflicts. It implies taking ownership and avoiding accusations ("When x happens, I feel this way," rather than "you're doing x to make me feel this way," . . . "I fear that x will result" rather than "you idiots are trying to do x," etc. etc.) It's classic conflict management skills -- but of course people are reading into it and accusing her of "making this about herself"

Tyla Stark

Sending love. Sorry you have to deal with people taking everything you do in bad faith. 💚💚💚

Frostfalls

Looking into what people are talking about for 20 minutes was enough confirmation that getting off twitter years ago was an amazing decision for mental health. Hope you're doing ok and considering leaving or minimizing your exposure to that terrible website. If I remember right, you mentioned feeling obligated to use it as a creator. But I'd argue that the loss of creative energy from effects on personal mental health is not worth it.

Rita Balbo

Thanks for the reference, i wasn’t a pateron then. I will see what she said later.

Rita Balbo

This has absolutely nothing to do with Natalie’s gender identity. Stop making it about that.

Rita Balbo

Correct, South African is changing. Is it perfect? Hardly. Does it still have a long way to go: absolutely. On to Germany: it gets worse. Today if a foreigner seeks to become a naturalised citizen they must not express antisemitic views, which because of its conflation with anti-Zionism is becoming increasingly difficult. Now expressing anti-Zionists views/critique of Israel IS being equated with anti-Semitism. Today in Germany questioning Israel’s basic right to exist is considered antisemitic under German law. In specific regions like Saxony-Anhalt, you are currently required to formally acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. Which is absurd as it does in fact exist. And even more absurd: it’s not even Israeli citizenship you’re seeking. Why not mention China or Russia? A more appropriate question Germany should ask itself is if anyone with an ounce of morality and decency can legitimatise their continued support of Israel, but that is a different conversation altogether.

Rita Balbo

She was actually being apologetic towards Israel. Did you not see her 180 turn?

Rita Balbo

“The unfortunate truth” you speak of is factually incorrect. All it takes is one phone call. Ronald Reagan did that just that on August 12, 1982 when he phoned the Israeli PM Menachem Begin during their war on Lebanon.

Rita Balbo

That was a very accurate and concise summary for the ones that needed it. Thank you Rachel. And to those who are interested in supporting a non-partisan political movement in Israel that are working towards changing Israel and Israeli society by ending the occupation of Palestine, ending the apartheid and have one land with 100% equal right for anyone who lives there regardless of Ethnicity & Religion, I would like to point you in the direction of : https://www.standing-together.org/en

Rita Balbo

Only if you’re a nihilist.

Rita Balbo

By saying that “sharing videos streamed by Gazans is worse than useless” (paraphrasing), while fully aware that mainstream Western media overwhelmingly caters to the Zionist narrative—and that Israel has systematically targeted and killed Gazan journalists and their families, and banned outlets like Al Jazeera from reporting on events in Gaza and the West Bank—it becomes clear that the aim is not to encourage more effective action, but to suppress the flow of information. This isn’t constructive criticism; it’s a dismissal. Real critique offers guidance with the intent to improve, not to shut down or discredit those doing the difficult work of documenting atrocities. When someone uses a phrase like “worse than useless,” the implication should be that they have a better alternative to offer. Otherwise, it serves only to silence and discourage. As I keep saying: silence and inaction in the face of wrongdoing only ever serve the perpetrators—not the victims. In effect, silence becomes a form of consent, or at the very least, complicity. That’s exactly why some of us are choosing to speak out and take a stand instead.

Rita Balbo

And regarding the state of “Israel” I believe that it is naive to think/expect it to be dissolved. I also think that it must not be allowed to continue in its current form, just like Germany wasn’t allowed to continue in its old form after WW2. There must be consequences to Israel’s actions, as well as for those who support it. I would like to point you in the direction of the non-partisan leftist grassroots movement in Israel that is seeking to revolutionise and change Israeli society & politics. Their goal is to end the occupation, end the apartheid and have one state where everyone regardless of religion & ethnicity have 100% equality and rights. I think those are noble goals to strive for. https://www.standing-together.org/en Funny enough the BDS movement hates them, as they claim them to be liberal-Zionists. Personally I think that perception to be both wrong and lacking nuance - as the BDS movement wants to essentially turn back time to when “Israel” in fact did not exist. Objectively and obviously that not happening anytime soon. That could only ever happen when nationalism and nation-states as a whole cease to exist.

Bryony Eilish Porteous-Sebouhian

Ah thank you for the comment. I can't remember which video it's in, I think the Twilight video, Natalie talks about the need to think more psychologically and psychoanalytically about things, and I agree, especially when it can empower us to see people and situations more empathetically and in a more nuanced way. I think a trauma informed lens can also empower us in a similar way. That is not to say I don't think she got it wrong, in what she said in the statement on reddit. I really she think she did. But if we don't see people who have experienced trauma through a trauma informed lens, and we don't think psychologically, emotionally and empathetically, especially in moments like this, they will never see where they got it wrong. And I say this because I think Natalie is a hugely emotionally intelligent person who has the capacity to change and grow. I wouldn't be wasting this kind of perspective on someone I thought was truly dangerous to the cause of Palestinian liberation. That being said, I am a white person living in England and other than my inherrant sense of humanity and empathy that is engaged on this topic, it does not directly affect me, I am not Palestinian, I am not Muslim, I am not Brown, so my lack of anger towards her on this matter comes from a total place of white privilege. So I am definitely being mindful of where and how I discuss this whole mess. Solidarity to you and your pals wherever you are!

Matt Quigley

I wish I'd seen this sooner. What a wonderful and thoughtfully written post, that many here could benefit from reading, myself included. Thank you.

Rae

Sending love and support to Natalie. Rewatched Canceling and it’s terribly familiar right now. Your videos are comfort watches to me and so many others. Much love ❤️

inhabitmoss

I don’t agree with her post, but I do agree with her concerns about making edutainment about a genocide. I don’t think anyone really needs a Contrapoints video on the genocide, and personally I never expected her to make one.

Ian Albert

Just adding to the supportive thoughts. Thinking of you during what must be a difficult -- or at the very least, exasperating -- time. YouTube started recommending all these videos about some supposed heinous misdeed by Contrapoints, and I already knew to be suspicious of the drama. I looked into it, found Natalie's reddit post, and... didn't see what the uproar was about. A nuanced, articulate, rational explanation of a thoughtful, personal choice about an incredibly complex issue. But appaaaaarently (according to critics) it's summarizable as "I'm a terrible person and support everything bad and hate everything good." [eye roll] I watched one of those critical videos, and while it was calm and not calling names or anything, it was still just half an hour of saying "I disagree with her, and I can't understand anyone who doesn't see things as I do." And the real flaw is right there in that statement: "I can't understand." Well, that sounds like a you problem. Keep at it and maybe you'll figure it out. If a smart, thoughtful, articulate person with many causes in common with you, who has demonstrated both in word and deed to support those causes, says something and your conclusion is that it goes against all of that... could it be your understanding that is flawed rather than the person? And further, could it be there is more than one right way to support a cause, none of them perfect? Should you be expending even one calorie of effort focusing on dissecting what someone said who agrees with you 99% on the things that actually matter? Especially when that person is not, in fact, a political leader with direct influence on the matter but a YouTuber? Too many people mistake disagreements on how best to take action as disagreements on the core values themselves. It's frustrating and destructive to their causes. Anyway, rant over. Again, hope you're doing alright and weathering the storm.

Steeve

Apparently someone is being cancelled again. 🤪 Hey, though I don’t really agree on all your points, I think there’s a lot of valid criticism and in a more sympathetic environment there could be a discussion to be had. Sadly social media landscape isn’t designed for it and I guess the mob doesn’t want to talk when it’s easier to lose ones shit over this. I hope the hate isn’t overwhelming and that there are people who care for you there. Wish you all the best!

Alfred Jaremko Young

It's a fact that that happened. It's not a fact that it can just be repeated by different people in a different world. My point is that Israelis needs to arrive on a vision for their state that doesn't involve wars with their neighbors and then that vision needs to win politically. America can help in forming that vision and support it when it is formed but its not going to be something that can be imposed from the outside. Unless someone invades Israel, dissolves the government and successfully undoes the whole notion of Israeli statehood which doesn't seem likely as Israel itself hasn't been able to end the notion of Palestinian statehood after all this time.

Wesley Costa

Daily Natalie checking: Natalie are you okay? Will you tell us that you’re okay?

muriel pingpong

I could write a really long message, but it all boils down to this: thank you for being the compassionate and amazing creator that you are. Your videos mean a lot to me. They’re so nuanced, intelligent, and have truly opened my mind. Always stay true to yourself. You're right (again): it's just a wave and they have no power. Criticism is totally fine, but this is just wild imo. Lots of parasocial love.

inhabitmoss

I for one wasn't aware at all that there were people asking her to make a video on this, because that seems insane. And I do personally disagree with a lot of her post (I don't think she's evil or should be cancelled or anything, but I do disagree with like 80% of it). But maybe I'm not as online as I thought I was. Idk at no point in the last two years have I thought to myself, why isn't Contrapoints making a youtube video on the genocide?? That's why for me her post seemed very out of left field. I thought what she was doing was fine, generally not saying anything and doing the occasional charity stream. Idk, I also didn't think too much of it. I appreciated her concern and hesitance to make "edutainment" about a literal genocide.

R. Nowadays

So you introduced me to leftist politics via YouTube when I was stuck in a soulless sales job and I inhaled your videos. Something in me was able to exhale and let go of feeling like a failure for not being successful financially. Leftist politics helped me when antidepressants and therapy failed and it was the start of crawling out of a years long depression. I work in mental health now and it pains me to see the internet after you again. I didn’t agree with everything in the Reddit post, but the reaction is ridiculous especially at a time when I just brought my passport with me to go on a trip across state lines because I’m mixed. To quote the philosopher Kourtney Kardashian, “Kim there’s people that are dying…” is how I feel about all the videos and comments on this insanely centrist take of yours which is better than 99% of elected officials. I hope you still create and I hope you don’t let the mob get you down. I don’t know how the fuck the left thinks it’s going to win or attract people when this is how they treat one of their best communicators. Please take care of yourself.

william kirkpatrick

just wondering what Natalie will post in response to all the abuse. And it just makes me upset. I'm sorry. I don't know what else to say.

william kirkpatrick

I found a show about Andy Kaufman on Tubi and I cannot believe it for the first time I recognize that Andy Kaufman listened to his inner female, so he proved that is something you can do as a man and it matters not at all if you are straight or gay or trans

Nikola

In this very stream you said you wouldn't let them get to you anymore. So I hope you don't. Sending support. *selfishly Looking forward to the Camille Paglia tangent.

Gart Kundalini

just checked out Andrea Dworkin's Right Wing Women from my local library -- sending support

Ted(dy)

I’m writing this so that maybe I can finally get it out of my head. Natalie, I say all of this with nothing but respect and deep, deep admiration: While the dogpiling you’re facing right now is unjustified, the anger in response to your statement is not. Your centering the conversation around how you feel regarding the state of the world, while valid, I think, was inappropriate for the context and audience, and Zionism is ultimately an indefensible ideology. You will look back one day and realize that you were wrong for not taking a stand against it. I think I understand why you didn’t, but I’m confident that you will one day regret it. You’ve been, well…hinting…on your gaming streams as of late that you're sinking into unhealthy coping mechanisms and avoiding seeking more effective help for your suffering. I am also doing exactly this so I get it. But I can’t help but think that this post was, in some part, an act of self-sabotage. Maybe I’m totally off-base. I don't know. I wholeheartedly believe, though, that the abuse you've suffered at the hands of the movement is preventing you from recognizing the value and importance of the movement, and I guess I sympathize with that. I hope you take the advice of others here and re-watch “The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling.” I was surprised and saddened by how much it made me think of you right now. Hunter Hylton and Ginny’s comments were very well-put and I hope you and others scroll down to read them. I’ve held you in literally the highest regard for over half a decade. Your work has profoundly shaped who I am as I’ve grown into myself. No matter what you say or do in the future, that will never change. And I will probably always listen to what you have to say and value your insight and perspective. I hope you’re taking care of yourself, Natalie.

Cole

The post was about why she will not be doing a video on the genocide in Gaza. She wasn't "centering the conversation" around how she feels, she was responding to people who were asking why she was not making a video on the topic. The people who are centering the conversation around her feelings now are the drama channels picking her apart for ragebait content, and people pouring into her replies on completely unrelated posts on other platforms to tell her why they think her feelings are wrong.

Ted(dy)

Come on. She called the post "Thoughts on I/P." This was not merely a statement to some small group of identifiable individuals on why she won't make a video. This was an address to The Left. This was an address to the movement about the entire situation. And in that context, it was totally inappropriate to make the issue about her feelings. It was never going to be received any other way.

Rose Dombegh

I know we all feel the need to rant right now -- to "get things off our chest" etc. -- but this is fundamentally a community of people who support Natalie, and we are snowflakes joining an avalanche. When the avalanche comes, I doubt it matters that some snowflakes are ice-sharp and others are like soft powder. Could we please please please just not?

Ted(dy)

@Rose I'm sorry, but I really fundamentally believe that those who have been die-hard fans and paying Patreon supporters for years have every right to express their reaction to this (genuinely and without spewing hate). I am a die-hard fan, long-time high-tier patron, and this is (hopefully obviously) good-faith criticism. I explicitly stated how much she means to me, how much she has impacted my life, how much I care about her wellbeing. I don't think we should all be expected to love bomb and nothing else. This is the last comment I'll write.

Rose Dombegh

Also. For anyone reading this. If you know any Jewish people who consider themselves "Zionists" I encourage you to respectfully ask them what they mean by that. And respectfully ask them what they think being an "anti-Zionist" means. Because the comments here & in left-wing discourse in general are using the term in a very specific way that is not, in my experience, how many Jewish people understand it themselves. I'm not trying to argue about who gets to define the term. Just that Natalie's right that it introduces ambiguities; it carries very different connotations for different communities, and people draw very different conclusions from something as seemingly straightforward as a statement "denouncing Zionism." I saw this in real time at the protests at my university. I learned after the fact that protest chants & mottos I had been supportive of carried connotations that I was completely oblivious to. Many people who understood those connotations did not say anything because they were (justifiably) afraid of social backlash.

Aif

Completely, and also in the Witch Trials video, she talks about taking a step back and not doubling down. Easier said than done, but I hope she'll take some time to log off, and only check back in once she has a bit more breathing room. Same, and I'm White and cis, and have no clue what it'd be like to be trans in Trump America rn, only that it'd be horrific. I'm also Irish, and had the privilege of knowing a lot about the Zionist project from a young age - we're taught to be critical. In the U.S., there are billions of dollars funding institutions that uphold the Zionist fallacy, so I have a lot patience for those living there.

Cole

People asked her, begged her, hounded her to share her feelings about the topic and whether she would make a video on it. So she shared her feelings, in the subreddit about her videos. To call that "centering the conversation around how she feels" is a fundamental misread of the situation. She's not taking up space in other people's conversations. Frankly, she made it clear she didn't even want it to be a conversation at all, just answers to questions that people were repeatedly asking her. You can disagree with what she said, but understand that the reason she said it was because a loud chorus of people asked her to do so... and now another loud chorus of people are telling her she shouldn't have, or she should have done it differently, or she needs to make another post clarifying what she said, or she needs to listen more and educate herself more. She literally can't satisfy everybody.

Blacklejack

I just don't understand what they want? What was the "correct" post to make?

LilyFields

I think people are confusing Zionism with Kahanism. Most people aren’t even familiar with the term Kahanism. Ben Gvir, Smotrich, and that crew are Kahanists. The West Bank settlers terrorizing Palestinians are Kahanists. Netanyahu is a kahanist in action, if not in thought, because of his need for political survival. But at that point, it doesn’t matter what he believes. I think the movement would have been more successful if we started with that terminology. Would’ve been less alienating to most Jews. Wouldn’t have opened the door as wide to opportunistic antisemites using the imprecision around the term “Zionist” to promote their bigotry against Jews at large. People can certainly have an issue with Zionism, but the term itself has become this bogeyman that has become the main issue in many leftist conversations on this topic. Where the focus is to destroy Zionism and demonize “zionists” and have lost the core issue - help the Palestinian cause for self-determination and the more immediate cause of stopping the war in Gaza and saving Palestinian lives. It’s a fine, fine line and one with a lot of nuance - something that is hard to maintain in such an emotional and desperate situation. And people will dispute they are getting sidetracked and are still centering the Palestinian cause. But I just don’t see that in the loudest voices on this issue. The movement is a river and right now the “destroy Zionism” voices seem to be controlling the direction of the current. People are conflating the two causes (anti-Zionism and pro-Palestinian). And while obviously related, they are achievable by different means and on different timelines. And one is much more immediately necessary and more likely for us to be able to address realistically. So we should be focusing on that - saving Palestinian life in the nearest term, supporting Palestinian self-determination as a next step. Not destroying Zionism or the “Zionist state.” As Natalie pointed out, that’s unrealistic. In terms of Natalie’s statement. I think she was very clear on her views of I/P. There is a genocide happening. But Natalie has made her career observing the social and political trends in the U.S., and used the majority of her statement to express those observations and the feelings of political impotence that arise from it. Her statement felt accurate to me. Most people speaking on the cause are well intentioned but we’re approaching almost two years of ineffectual action (or even being unintentionally counterproductive) to save Palestinian lives. Is the Gaza situation better or worse than it was even 12 months ago? We have to explore other means of confronting this issue. We have to. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting anything to change is insanity. Natalie might not know what to do and she refrained from proscribing a course of action. But at this point, we do need voices speaking up to say, “hey, guys, what we’re doing isn’t working.” We need the wake up call so we can shift gears! Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Mathieu B. Lafrenière

Oh no. What happened here... I wanted to say the video was interesting and thank you, but there seems to be quite a storm here. :( Regardless, thank you for the video.

AionMirror

this is so fucking random but now im legitimately fascinated to understand wtf youre talking about. How does andy kaufman prove than men can listen to their inner female exactly?

Steeve

Thank you! I was unaware there was a separate term for this. It might be why some decided to not use it as introducing terms that are foreign to most, even if an accurate way of talking in correct terms. I would add that the term Zionism in general includes so much that what people mean so the conversation around it is easy to misunderstand what people mean by it.

Tomme

She literally said she supports sanctions against Israel in the statement. Thats Zionism?

Rose Dombegh

Hi Tomme! My guess is people see that as Zionism because it's not calling for the abolition of the state of Israel, so much as a geopolitical strategy to put pressure on Israeli leaders. (also more context since so many people have commented!) . . . I'm not Jewish, nor a political scientist, so I can't perfectly speak to this -- but in my experience, "Zionism" gets used colloquially among (some) Jewish people to mean, 1) support of Israel as a state for Jewish people existing, yes, but also 2) support of a Jewish presence/return to the Holy Land in general -- not necessarily in the form of (as people are putting it here) a fascist ethnostate. And conversely, "anti-Zionism" gets assumed to mean a) the abolition of Israel as a state and the death of everyone currently living there (which is roughly 40% of the world's Jewish population), and/or b) the abolition of a Jewish presence from the area in general. Is this a fair assumption? I tend not to think so -- but then, I am not Jewish, and did not grow up with 2,000 years of intergenerational trauma of living in diaspora and being the first scapegoat most populations reach for. (I also want to note that there are forms of government meant to keep the peace between deeply divided populations that would allow for a Jewish presence in the area without making an ethnostate -- like, for example, Consociationalism. So definition (b) doesn't necessarily lead to the existence of a "Jewish state"). There are also formalized theories of non-statist Zionism (I suggest you look them up; I can't really do justice here).

Peter T. Screener

Hope you are doing well and are spending these days outside touching the grass.

Rose Dombegh

Also I appreciate the critique/point that the current wave of activism is educating people about the conflict & I think that's a really important thing to do ... so I think its equally important that we ourselves understand the concepts involved and use accurate language.

Daniel Guerrero

"What was the 'correct' post to make?" "Israel is committing a genocide. I am upset about it, but not in a mental space to create a video about it," and then stop right there. The "other feelings" she had could have been a journal. She didn't have to go on a rant about how terrible "the online left" is (for... being annoying about a huge moral issue they care a lot about?) and conflate actual activism with online trolling.

Daniel Guerrero

As a years long patron, I feel the same. I hope Natalie is able to have a long, in person conversation with some anti-zionist jews (more Matt Bernstein, less Ethan Klein) about why they feel that way. The post came off as more uninformed than anything to me. I would be delighted to welcome her back to the anti-fascist perspective after she takes some time to clear her head. (And learn more about the fascism inherent in a religious supremacist state, no matter what that religion is!)

Daniel Guerrero

Honestly, this is NOT just a hateful jab, but her statement was the foreign policy equivalent of, "JKR just said that 'sex is real,' and is super nuanced! She said she'd fight for trans people if they were discriminated against! Why is everyone calling her transphobic?"

Grace W

Sending you love and strength

e ♡

they could never make me hate you <3

Liv

echoing all of this

william kirkpatrick

I am still waiting to see Natalie's response. And I worry. I cannot imagine how it feels to be universally a great figure and now universally attacked. I have three friends to talk to on the phone and am entirely off any websites. I wonder what is going to happen next. I guess this is part 2 of what happened with Buck Angel. I do not know what is going on with Our Mother or whatever we we should call her but it is increasingly clear she IS that whatever it is. Maybe I. will watch Cancelling so I can get some peace and not worry about her. The new Frontline about Donald Trump's Power showing how its being set up so that through all these actions involving judicial people and judicial laws cops and government-paid lawyers/judges are supposed to support Trump and that is all they are supposed to do....This is pretty unsettling.

ts_babyjane

this is like dramagedon part 2. bread-agedón i guess. i just hope she knows we love her, and if people can't see her years of good will its on them. shes literally said "the left hates any kind of practicality" since the beginning. i love her cuz shes made me more leftist while also being critical and weary

william kirkpatrick

alright I am doing it right now. I am watching Cancelling

william kirkpatrick

"O My God you tried to trick a straight man into thinking he is gay, again"......one of the most homophobic things ever said in a sleek sharktoothed asshole kind of way.......just like what is going on right now with straight white youtubers attacking Natalie

william kirkpatrick

actually Cancelling is deeply saddening but I get it. The more I get it the more saddening it is people are blind to innocent victims being shot down online, because of the way info gets filed through "friends" online: James Charles, Contrapoints, Gamergate, Contrapoints again, so I will find something else to watch, but for now I keep watching it but my heart is with Natalie, her guys and gals here, bless your hearts, motherfuckers

william kirkpatrick

alright here I am narcissistically commenting again on my own comment, but I just want to say if you really care about Natalie like I do, watch Cancelling, it is her live response to what it is going on right now and it is going on right now and it is so fucking STUPID and people just cannot think online. If people think Natalie is a Zionist Netanyahu fanatic racist pig and they are between 14 and 24 years old there is not any goddamned thing you can do about it

william kirkpatrick

alright here's where I beg fellow members of planet earth who love Natalie think. I am in California. For some reason I am most interested in people as far away as possible. I am watching Cancelling right now and am hoping Natalie is fine

Táňa Neustupová

I completely understand your points on Gaza and I admire your courage. I hope you are okay. Sending love <3

Douglas Smithe

Natalie I've always loved your work and will continue to: you're in my top 3 favourite Youtubers. I just wanted to say that I disagree with a lot of what you said in your recent post on Israel and Palestine. And while I'm sure you're on the receiving end of a lot of blind hatred for your post, there are also some careful, nuanced and measured criticisms that have been made. In any case, take care yourself and know that you are supported <3

Douglas Smithe

Daniel Guerrero 100% that's what I would've said.

bluetybloop

I understand your point and I’m sure she knows that but whenever there’s a massive mob of harassment being mobilized at you that is just about the worst time to receive criticism

bluetybloop

It’s not that good criticism can’t exist and there’s nothing constructive to be absorbed, it’s just that if you were on the receiving end of a massive mob of harassment being told “hey just wanted to let you know that some of us have really good points” is probably significantly more frustrating than just sifting through it yourself. The best time to approach a creator with criticism is after things have settled down and they’re not dealing with the emotional fallout of a cancellation.

Anthony D’Andrea

Would just like to say, I think the responses to your I/P statement have been maybe only like 15% fair criticism to some of the more questionable/poorly-expressed points you made, and like 85% just straight-up misrepresentation of what you were saying, painting you as a monster by putting words in your mouth, largely from people who were already eager to pile hate onto you from the get go. Hope you take your own advice from your recent AMAs and don’t let the bastards get you down. 💗

bluetybloop

I’m genuinely confused as to why ethan klien keeps being brought up? He’s an internet shit slinger, not a politician or advocate. I get he’s in the muck with a bunch of people in contra’s sphere but if the problem is genocide it’s pretty frustrating that so much of this discussion centers around a drama youtuber. Even if ethan never posted again, if he disappeared off the face of the earth, the situation in palestine wouldn’t change an iota. Why are we spending so much energy on drama?? There’s a genocide going on, a fascist is president and, enemy number one is the vape naysh guy? I can’t believe that the difference between a fascist and an anti fascist has come down to condemning a youtuber.

bluetybloop

And now we’re comparing her to JK Rowling. This is clearly just an attempt to twist the knife. This isn’t even remotely similar. That would be like if JK Rowling said “I support trans people. I’ve given money to trans charities and will always support their rights but I feel like I’m not the person equipped to make a novel about the history of the trans rights movement and the current anti trans backlash going on in the US. I feel horrible for trans people, but I also feel a lot of other conflicting emotions. First, criticism of radical feminist movements should not be confused with misogyny that conflation is dangerous. However, not all feminists are terfs or swerfs. It’s a broad ideology and most women identify as feminists to some extent. It concerns me when some leftists will use sexist language and put down feminist causes to score points in online discussions. I worry that criticism of “radical feminism” if not worded carefully, can slip into anti feminist tropes and if people are not careful enough, they behave in anti feminist ways. I don’t think that women who have criticized the “dirtbag left” are hallucinating sexism. I am also upset that the online left has made it it’s mission to distribute graphic images of dead trans children, which are traumatizing and don’t lead to any meaningful change. I also saw a lot of leftist telling people not to vote, which not only endangers trans people but tons of other marginalized groups. I am resentful of this because donald trump’s election because the trump party is trying to take away abortion access. This is not criticizing trans people who are the victims in this. I will continue to support trans people and I hope American policy shifts in their favor. Okay so is that a perfect statement? No. No it’s not. I disagree with it. It focuses far too much on criticizing the left imo (although contra is ostensibly part of that community unlike jkr) and doesn’t offer any real solutions to the problem of trans rights but it’s also really clearly in support of trans people in a way that “sex is real” is not? I’d be really hard pressed to find anyone calling her a terf if THAT was what jkr said.

Madeline

Not only is Scandinavia the Japan of Europe, Minnesota is the Japan of the US

Madeline

Private but collective, emotionally restrained but friendly and polite, humble but low key leading fields of industry and technology

Anthony Behnke

Hoping everything is okay on your end, but I know you’re a strong person who has weathered many a storm. I will read all 700 pages of Sexual Personae as a gesture of my support.

Anthony Behnke

Okay, I only read the first chapter and I don’t have the fortitude to carry on. I fail 😭

Rose Dombegh

This is such a mood I'm sure the gesture is appreciated regardless

Cole

...and more of a drinking problem than you'd ever guess based on their cultural image

Daniel Guerrero

I wasn't comparing Natalie to JKR, I was comparing her to JKR's defenders. Israel is JKR in my analogy, Contra is, IMO, poorly informed about the issue and was successfully distracted by bad faith propoganda (hasbara). "Some zionists are nice people, and anti-semitism is a big problem with the left," is just as blinkered as "JKR supports trans people, she just said was sex is real! Misogyny is a big problem with the trans community!"

cynicatsea

Hey, whiskey to stay warm in the bitterly cold winters, and beer to stay cool in the hot, humid summers. If you’ve got a better idea on how to thermoregulate, I’d like to hear it. Heating in the winter and the a/c in the summer contribute to climate change, so if you think about it, we’re drinking to save the planet. You’re welcome.

bluetybloop

Ok makes sense. To be honest, I was skeptical at your assertion that there’s no anti semitism on the left but your counter argument that she’s been brainwashed by hasabra (gotta make sure to throw some hebrew in there, nice touch) totally convinced me thx

Viviane P.L.

I wish you well and also please give up Twitter y'all

fynnib0y

well maybe its time to get your priorities straight then babes

PicarosPage

Sending love and support from Germany 🤍

fynnib0y

girl nobody said otherwise

fynnib0y

whereß Please show dont tell! The statement said she approves sanctioning israel

fynnib0y

who are we? Definetly not me and you

fynnib0y

well she doesnt owe you anything so...

Emily Griese

Hey Natalie, hope you're doing well. I've been a fan for long enough that I feel like I understand you on a certain level, at least enough to know that your intentions are good and rarely cynical or opportunistic. I disagree with a lot of what you said in your reddit post and, to be honest, that was a bit of a bummer. But it would take something much, much worse for me to stop supporting you, appreciating your work and just liking you as a person. I hope you're taking care of yourself and I hope, when you're ready, you'll be able to take in some of the good faith criticism you've received on this matter and understand that not all of it is coming from people who are determined to be furious at you.

HAUNTER

Returning to multiple other people’s comments to be defensive about your own choices to criticize her over and over again in this dogpiling session is not critique. Please be aware of your own behavior and how it contributes to group dynamics. You may think you are being uniquely unaffected by outside influence, but you’re not. All of this shit has been orchestrated by breadtube dudes and trickled down into leftist spaces whether you personally are aware of it or not. This also has kiwifarms fingerprints all over it whether you personally are aware of it or not. Contrapoints harassment campaigns have been going on for years and years, and you can act above it, but you’re not above leftist groupthink. Learn to discern shit for yourself.

Daniel Guerrero

Are you implying I'm anti-semetic because I used the word "hasbara"? YeeshAnd maybe you should watch Matt Bernstein's video called "The Anti-semitism Panic" to see how left wing Jews feel about

Loppia

Longtime viewer, first time commenter wanting to send you moral support and love<3

Rae

Sending love to Natalie and to you all 🫶going to touch grass now. Edit to add. recently my sister got engaged and I’m really happy for her. But at the same time I’ve felt really envious at times esp bc last year I got out of an abusive relationship. I’ve felt so guilty for comparing myself to her and envying her. So your video Envy has been especially eye-opening recently, and the last ten or so minutes of Envy really inspired me. I literally got up off the bed and vowed to stop obsessing over what I lack (a safe partner/loving relationship) and just like. Live my life and try to enjoy myself regardless and not let my envy control me. So thank you so much Natalie. Just another person who has been deeply touched by your work. ❤️

Tim Cooper

😉👍♥️🐨 🍪 🌯

william kirkpatrick

I am concerned about Natalie since I have no idea how she has responded to the massive avalanche of hate. Someone please tell me. Also I sincerely hope she is well and it feels good in a way to hope someone I really want to be just like is safe and well and having a good time....I am not a fan of Lavey but "Compassion to those who deserve it" applies here and Natalie deserves it. I recently watched Conspiracy and I was stunned by the subtlety and all the important points about anti-semitism being exactly what Qanon really is. I feel this is consistent with all of Natalie's brilliant and bigballs work and I am just fucking ANGRY.......but I am also angry about Marcels Ophuls not being as easy to watch on the internet.......Does anybody know about how Jean-Luc Godard and Marcel Ophuls were going to make a documentary about Palestine........that just proves what I believe. Natalie is Godard and Ophuls and it sucks we los Godard and Ophuls and FUCK YOU....big kiss to anybody who responds ....also Queen Coke Francis rules

william kirkpatrick

alright I compared my last comment to others...OK good people.....make Natalie laugh....I feel bad about my "passionate" comment and I want to encourage everyone.....MAKE NATALIE LAUGH but I am so pissed ooff ......come on, be pissed off and MAKE NATALIE LAUGH somehow....but for god's sake she DID THAT FOR US.....somebody do somethin' nice for Natalie

william kirkpatrick

I got to add one more thing. We are talking about the Head of the Resistance here. NOBODY is making films as on point and declaring unflinchingly what resistance is supposed to be in literally every single video

william kirkpatrick

I find myself watching The Darkness again and I cannot describe the profound loyalty I feel. It is in a sense very anti-drug saying "self-improvement is tough" and at the same time mocking both points of view: drug and anti-drug and then Ricky Gervais is an asshole, something I never would have considered but it shows the Baudelairian humanist perspective and how weak-minded and limited people like Gervais are and goes on and on from there. Gigi Gorgeous splattering her semen all over a wall. I did that once for a girl named Triadessa from how she tickled my balls with a feather. Still, a proud memory.......but the whole thing, is just great and its not really just about being trans. Its about the embarrassing reality we ALL face

Zeif

Does anyone have any recommendations for Palestinian aid organizations to give money to? I have a little extra money.

wh1psticka

Medico International does really important work

Zeif

I took notes from this--"Learn from the cringe, focus on reducing it one percentage point at a time..." "The best time to create good content or art is Always NOW! so keep your eyes forward!", and as a result I immediately made a draft video, and now I just made my first serious YouTube video!! I don't know if I can share a link or not, it's about vaginoplasties

Gart Kundalini

i'm about 30 pages away from finishing Right Wing Women -- i think i might reward myself with a bottle of prosecco when i'm done. peace and love

Toni Zadravec

I'm worried we're getting a video.

Prince

You could give to drs w/o borders or also straight to Palestinians who post their GFM/chuffed pages. Molly Shaw (I think that’s her name) verifies a lot of folks on Bluesky

Eva J

why did you let the people of palestine down by making the whole issue of genocide about your own personal feelings? you are not the most oppressed person in the world. it's not too late to make amends but I'm so so disappointed in you, as someone I have looked up to and respected as a fellow trans woman for many years now.

Dajana

Hi, Natalie. Just wanted to be a counter-voice in another episode of your needlessly viscous cancelling. Even though you know about the dynamics of it already, you still deserve to be reminded that you are a worthy human being, and that no real or perceived mistake you make in the public eye is justification for viscous attempts of character assasination and dehumanizing. We are with you. Nobody can have a claim on what you should or shouldn't do or say. You are your own person. I hope you stay strong and persevere.

Grady Wiehe

Really don’t pretend to know Natalie’s state of mind rn. Maybe all of this stuff is getting to her bad and she’s in crisis, or maybe she’s dealt with it so many times she’s just desensitized. But either way, I really don’t envy her position rn in terms of content. I for one hope we haven’t seen the last of Contrapoints. I hope we get another tangent soon. But I can also imagine that like, what do you make a video about now? If you do literally any topic other than Palestine it’ll be “wow, so you’re just continuing to ignore the issue” but of course if she does a video on Palestine now - even if it’s the vets most nuanced most moving video on the topic we’ve ever seen - it’ll be “wow this Machiavellian narcissist is just trying to save face on this issue now.” A lot of the flack gets phrased as Natalie “putting her feelings over those of Palestinians” which like, sure the plight of Palestinians is more important than any of our feelings, but at this point why are all the detractors making Natalie’s feelings the focus? Idk. Doesn’t seem like the most effective means of really helping anyone in Gaza.

Max W

As usual, Natalie's stance was very reasonable. People love to assume the worst. It sucks.

Max W

100% agree. The general response to her post has been mind-boggling. Natalie literally donates money to Pro-Palestine charities, yet there are endless YT comments like "so she's finally come out as a Zionist", "just as bad as JKR", "sorry the genocide is so annoying to you!", etc etc etc. Like, guys... she is on the same side as you. She just didn't want to talk about it. Your anger is extremely misdirected. Everybody f*king calm down.

holdorz

Another one🥱🥱🥱

Leeasle

Hey Natalie, I just wanted to send you some love and support❤️ I do disagree with your statement/method on I/P, but that’s all - different opinions. Doesn’t mean you’re a bad person and doesn’t mean I’m gonna stop enjoying your videos and thoughts and content. You’ve showed understanding and grace to so many people with different opinion than yours, trying to persuade them in a welcoming way through your videos, and it’s a shame people don’t show you the same amount of grace back. Hope you’re doing okay❤️

Leeasle

Totally agree with this!!

slayzek (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-14 12:00 Genocide is still happening
2025-07-27 21:53

bioniclekid506

If it helps anything, online people have been harassing AOC with the exact same rhetoric because of a bill she didn’t support, trying to cancel her because of her stance on a bad faith bill. People with common sense understand that you don’t support what’s happening in Gaza. It also drives me nuts that people have this much energy to police imperfect allies, which is simply not productive for resolving the actual issue. Hope you’re doing okay 🩵

Michael Cusic

People like you make me walk away from activism.

Cole

People asked her to share her feelings. People DEMANDED she share her feelings. And now that she has... people are furious at her for sharing her feelings.

phastinemoon

She literally didn’t - specifically, I’d argue, she’s not making a video about it to AVOID making it about her feelings

Dorothea

And she is supposed to stop that?!

phastinemoon

It’s not a failure to recognize when you need to stop! This is a quitting-positive space, grinding only works in video games.

phastinemoon

…she DID, tho? She literally said that, and gave more in-depth explanations WHY she wasn’t in the right mental space. You literally wanted her to say LESS? To not give details? Okay ? Just stop reading after the first paragraph of her statement, then?

hey_boo

So well said. Thank you for your comment!

Rose Dombegh

Even after two weeks of us condemning Natalie? It's almost like piling on against YouTubers doesn't change geopolitics ...

Rose Dombegh

And occasionally O-chem classes lol

Damian Fox

Hey Natalie 💗 As we all know, the work you do is incredible and SO important. It's like the message and nuance on every topic is applicable even to the topics you don't cover SO. I feel like nearly everyone underestimates the vulnerability one must face in order to present even non politically charged artwork for display. It's confronting, to put your identity and point of view out for scrutiny! What you do takes more courage than most of us have in our little toe. You are amazing. What you have done is if massive service to art and humanity. I say let go of any I'll feelings and stress and sadness, don't carry the burden of obligation to represent this or that perspective. I just want you to feel good. Things come to pass! Just try to find joy where you can. I love you 💗

Rakuen9

I don't really think I can say much to give you, Natalie comfort right now.. When it comes to me personally you've earned the right to be wrong about some stuff. And you've mentioned it just in passing and it's silly but also very serious so I wanna talk about Vincent van Gogh. A thinkpiece about him and mental health would hopefully help other artists struggling out there like myself. Hannah Gadsby mentioned this too in Nanette but Vincent was on medication. He did seek treatment at the time, there's even a possibilty that a side effect of one the the treatments he was on at the time being that your perception of the colour yellow to be really intense which, could be an argument for taking your goddamn meds. However, the whole image of him as a misunderstood or under appreciated artist is a bit.. or a story. Art critics and curators will frame a story around artists to sell either the work or just increase the notoriety around an artist. And the tragic depressed painter is a story that is pretty basic. I'll mention right now that I have a BA in Painting, and live in country where it's really not viable to be a painter because people can't really afford it but also I wasn't that good at painting either. Like to make it here you really have to be extraordinarly good, and then get lucky as well. And speaking of luck, Vincent's brother was a gallery owner. Vincent was represented by a gallery. The fact that he never sold a painting in his lifetime is true, but the art market is a complicated and nebulous thing, and tbh it's onj his brother that he didn't sell his work. Like it's the gallerist's job to represent and sell your work. And to pay you a wage. Like the deal is that they represent you and invest money in you, with showing your work and paying you something so you can continue your work. Also this situation qualifies him to be a nepo baby btw and that is just a funny thing. Also as a woman, there's a lot of women erased from art history, but I have to point out even if I don't remember the name of the top of my head... the reason why we know Vincents work now was the fact that his sister-in-law archived and protected his work after his death and after her husbands' death. Vincent was very much appreciated and supported as an artist during his lifetime even if the support came from his immediate family.

Rakuen9

And to the other artists out there.. It's not your job to decide what your masterpiece is.. that's the job of the curators/critics etc.. I've seen all the known painters from Vincent.. almost 900 of them and .... they're not all masterpieces. I live in Romania and art museums are the thing I visit while abroad because that's the only way to actually see the names I learned about during art history classes and this will sounds stupid but.. not all of them were masterpieces. Like Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper was done in an experimental technique for the time which meant that it needed to be restored DURING his lifetime. Or that one of his architectural projects needed to be demolished before the construction finished because it would have collapsed. Or that Michelangelo never saw a naked woman in his life, bless his gay petty lil heart. The pettiness was so stong where he was like painting is easy and sculpture is harder and better that he did one of the most insane and grueling pieces of painting just out of pettyness. And as a painter who moved to sculpture (even in digital form as I do now) yeah I get it. Painters are daintly little drama queens and sculpture especially marble is insane do to. Honestly the only artist that I know of that was so good he basically got away with murder is Bernini. I've trained for 15 years to be able to criticize work and analyze it from a variety of points of view and that mofo is the only one where I cannot find a single thing to criticize about his work and it literally makes me angry. Like yeah pack it up guys art is done.. Bernini's done it there's no reason to do it anymore, lol.

Rakuen9

Also, as someone who has had untreated ADHD and depression and was a painter and learned to paint digitally, and then vector illustration, and graphic design and eventually moved into 3D Character Art as the medium of my choice all while feeling like an impostor.. I have to just say that your work will suck.. like you will make bad art. And you will agonize about it. Like I know the paint of having a really bad work day when your skills are just not there.. I'll use drawing as an example because that's at the basis of the work I personally do.. so when I make a bad drawing I am like oh I can't even do a good drawing and that is the most basic thing in my field but.. I need to remind myself that I never actually focused on mastering drawing. Like I would frame a bad drawing like I was trying to make a masterpiece but honestly drawing for me is the equivalent of note taking for writing. You're just laying down the basics before coming in and adding to it to make it something more. Also.. at the end of the day.. a bad painting, sculpture drawing whatever your art form is .. is not a big deal in the larger scheme of things. I'm not even saying to compare it to the horrors of the world or whatever, but even in your own career.. A bad piece is just a drop in the puddle, lake, ocean that it is your work. Sometimes it's something that never sees the light of day. I've personally did so much work that i didn't save or document at all because i was frustrated with it .. and now I'm a bit mad with myself because I really look fondly back on my own work that was worse than what I'm able to do now. Now I'm able to do a portrait from memory that looks pretty good in a couple of hours in ZBrush (my medium of choice) but that's only possible because it's like my 60'th portrait.. I put in hundreds of hours if not thousands. Oh and I'm still unemployed atm. Like I got good at stuff but my perfectionism and really high standards prevent me from actually finishing work. I'm technically good but it's hard for me to be disciplined in other ways.. And it's very frustrating because I know that early 20s me would be blown away seeing how skilled mid 30s me is at the stuff now.. Getting good takes a long time and even when you're good, you need some good admin/buisness skills and luck to "make it". And being good isn't all it takes... but it is something under your control. Studying ( aka practicing) your craft is the thing under your control and you should try to focus on that part instead of caving in to the self sabotage your brain does by telling you you're not enough. Like I know we all go for greatness and we fear mediocrity but even mediocrity is a lot of work. Like sure the goal always moves, you need to continue to challenge yourself to become better.. but sometimes mediocrity is fine for a work day you know? The idea is to keep the momentum to work the next day and try to be better then.

Rakuen9

Also it's invaluable to have a group of peers who's opinion your respect and who can criticize your work in a way that won't demoralize you. I personally have various people who I can contact for criticism and some people are in the exact same field, some of them are former peers from art school and so on.. There's people who will support me no matter what, who's opinion I don't find particularly helpful but sometimes I need the ego boost and times where I am stuck on something technical where I need someone who knows their stuff better than I do to give me some feedback. Find people like that and have these talks in private. This is the sausage making process that you don't need to make public. Good luck to everyone.. continue to do your very serious and very silly art. And take any help you can get. Even if it's in pill form. Sending all of you my love.

Derick Gadd

Regarding the arc of "Cringe culture" from the 90s-now, I think it can largely be summarized through South Park, a show which has generally mapped the Late Gen X/Millenial Zeitgeist pretty well. The early seasons are much more anti-religion, and typically the "left wing" targets are individual celebrities who are presented as being up their own asses about charity etc. See the Season 1 Sally Struthers episode for an early example of that, which has continued through the entire show's history. Through a modern lens some of the ways they attack these people are pretty right-coded (fatphobia etc), but this was much more universal at the time. I think Season 3 marks a beginning of a more rightward shift, where they (as a couple of white guys) would start making episodes about like, how ridiculous hate crime laws are., "the death camp of tolerance", etc. You start to see a lot more of the classic "these smug leftists think they know how to protect vulnerable population X, but actually they're only pretending to care and they're evil". This would become a formula for them for the next decade and a half, and they very rarely had any contempt left for actual bigots, but rather it was always "PC culture" being cringe. To the degree they were targeting right-wingers, it was lingering anti-religious sentiment. I don't want to stretch this too far, because I think they were swimming in these waters rather than inventing this style, but I do see this as the vibe shift that culminated in the "alt-right" and then trump after a decade+. Essentially the abandonment of the previous manners-coded style of conservatism through the failure of GWB and beyond, to a much more crass style. This is likely the reason the show was not perceived as being fundamentally right-wing at the time, because the establishment right still didn't use that style. I think they realized what they had been part of post-2016, which led to an attempt to frame the show as less political, and really people generally stopped paying attention to it around that time, but I will note that them re-embracing "Politics with a capital P" by going hard after trump might be the sign of that vibe shift this entire comment was originally supposed to be about. I think there's a really good video essay waiting to be made on the topic of SP and the shifting right-wing style, because so much of the media analysis about that show just takes things at face value, and therefore falls apart to first-level arguments like "but they make fun of everyone!" Anyway I accidentally wrote a huge SP rant lol. My bad, I blame ADHD meds.

slayzek (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-14 12:00 Genocide is STILL happening. People are STILL starving. I'm sorry to hurt your sensibilities
2025-08-03 08:32

Rose

Really sad to unsubscribe from your Patreon but positioning your feelings when talking about a genocide that is happening to others while you at the bare minimum have access to food is disgusting.

Adam Karas

this is exactly how it consistently seemed to me for past 15 years

Adam Karas

yes and it is more hopeless under Trump, she is correct, this might be in the context the most demoralizing case of cowardly infighting I have ever seen

chatargenté

the ideas here about creative voice, authenticity, and artistry as process are so beautiful and resonant

Cole

Once again, she talked about her feelings about it because people asked, even DEMANDED that she share her feelings. And now that she has... people are furious at her for talking about her feelings.

Cole

She's not asking for your sympathy. People asked, even DEMANDED that she share her feelings, so she finally did.

nessa nessa

hello natalie. its taken me a long time to write something about your post on palestine, both because i wanted to collect my thoughts and because you probably wont read it. first of all, forgive any issues with tone, english is not my native language. I've been a follower through many "cancelations" of yours, but this is the one where i feel there is actually some reflection needed on your part. ive admired you for your intelect, wit, and humour, ive been a youtube subscriber for years and when i got my own credit card, i became a patreon too. i dont even have a netflix subscription, but i really do admire you and your work and wanted to support you, as well as have acess to the tangents. your post does not erase that admiration, however, it did come as a dissapointment. people are overreacting, as they tend to do on the internet, but it really was a callous and self centered post. i understand people were asking for "your thoughts" on the matter, but what they wanted was an aknowledgment of the war crimes being committed, of the genocide of the palestinian people, something that you, who made a career out of commenting on current political events, were expected to cover. what you ended up doing, as you have probably now been made aware, is center yourself in a discussion in which you are not the one being targeted. i am not the most knowledgeble person on the history of the middle east or its conflicts, but i do know this: what isreal is doing, it is doing with direct support of the united states military complex. in my opinion, as someone who is not from the united states, that makes it every citizens responsability to do something about it. be that organizing/going to live protests, making donations big or small or talking about it to your very large youtube audience. yes, the images that surface on twitter may cause us to feel despair and hopelessness, but out of any country in the world, people in the united states have the most say on this topic. the highest autority of my country, president lula, has already talked openly about being against the genocide, and brazil has offered an official cease fire agreement, which every country signed But the U.S.A. it was vetoed. your countries word matters that much. that means that even though you might not feel like it, your voice does matter. yes, saying the obvious out loud does matter. out of anywhere in the world, people within your country are the ones that should be calling out your elective representatives the most, because you have the most power to impact the lives of the actual people being stripped of their lands, lives and dignity. i do not believe your post makes you "a horrible person" for whatever thats worth. i have made my own share of misguided decisions, as has every person. however, i do not think this "cancelation" was completely unwarrented. if i were you, i would try not to be alone right now (especially since in your latest post you seem to be in a worsening state of depression). spend time offline, with people who care about you and who you care about also. however, when you are ready, please do reflect. i dont mean to sound preachy, i just think you are too intelligent to turn into another ethan klein type of individual who got cancelled by "the left" one too many times and became a crazed up right winger. so please, try not to do that. ive already told my irl friends im a fan of yours, so if you did that, it would be pretty cringe (jk). i do wish you the best, as someone who also suffers from depression, and who is trying to dig myself out of a hole. I want you to remember that one mistake, one bad decision, is bound to happen. however, there are lives at stake also. and they should be the focus of any discussion on this topic, no ifs buts or ands. i have been contemplating unsubbing to the patreon. i dont think you'll miss the small amount i give you monthly, brazilian currency is worth shit compared to the dollar. but i really wanted to say that if you could, in any way, raise money to the palestinian release fund, or help families in gaza with direct gofundme donations, or something, not to "atone for your sins" or to give anyone of us the "satisfaction" of being in the right, but just because. its the right thing to do. especially when you have a platform the size of yours and theres people going through genocide. that would make me, one singular person and fan, proud to call myself a fan again. for whatever thats worth. do rest up, natalie, and once you do, please reflect.

william kirkpatrick

I was really hoping that the new contrapoints video would be here tonight. I have been going to sleep listening to John Waters interviews and am afraid of the depression and apathy that might overtake me not having any more John Waters to fall asleep to. Today I had lunch with my father and he went on and on about how great One Battle After Another and he has no idea who Paul Thomas Anderson is. One Battle After Another is great because its Paul Thomas Anderon TODAY responding to the nightmare american 4rth reich we are all watching unfold and the next Contrapoints will be great because Natalie is great.

TiffanyLaurelY

am I the only one who feels Natalie doing a video specifically about Palestine on her main YouTube channel would not really fit her theme? she's not a YouTuber that just covers all politics like some news reporter. people can have different things they focus on in their own lives and work. I, personally, am so fucking stressed out and depressed with my own personal problems and the state of the country we live in (United States), that I don't think about Israel or Palestine much...at all (you can't focus on every issue in the world at all times). it's devastating what is going on in Palestine, but I am not understanding the mentality here of expecting her to address a specific thing. youtubers/celebrities/literally anyone who isn't a politician aren't dancing monkeys that owe us anything other than the art or content they decide to produce and focus on.

nekomusumeninaritai

I could have been supportive without dismissive scare quotes. And I do appreciate “online leftists”, though I think some have gotten a false alarm in this case. Sorry if this pings the people who liked this post, but I just had a couple of hot takes in this comment section I couldn't get out of my head.

nekomusumeninaritai

Oh yeah, this comment I left is completely unassailable /s. And not just the Ezra Klein mention, but the “left-wing liberal” thing too really shows I should be leaving /more/ astute political comments /s. Sorry to everyone for all the eyeroll-induced nausea.

governmentfunding

The part near the end of the tangent where you comment on "Eastern" philosophy/religion and its relationship(s) to nature makes me really curious to hear what you make of Tibetan Buddhist imagery: Wrathful deities having sex while trampling Vedic gods (IIRC), surrounded by swords, fire, severed heads.