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Hi friends!

Here's the January tangent, on New Atheism!

Working on these first two Tangents has been very freeing for me. Creating Patreon-exclusive content has relieved me of the creative paralysis that I've been experiencing with main-channel videos, where I feel like I have to meet a very high standard of research, fact-checking, production quality, and originality.

I begin making each Tangent with the mindset that I'm creating "mid" content to meet a deadline—which turns out to be a helpful mindset for my productivity. These first two tangents have each taken a few days of very intense work, but I think the result is a video that's comparable to what would have been a main-channel video five years ago.

Some patrons have expressed that they think the Tangents should be public, since they want to be able to share them. I'm torn between, on one hand, feeling like I've found a way to trick myself into producing consistent content on a deadline (something I've been struggling with for a couple years now); and on the other hand, not wanting to make the Tangents public, since that defeats the purpose of Patreon-exclusive content. A possible compromise might be to make the Tangents public after a month or so—though I still worry that wouldn't be "exclusive" enough to justify the Patreon subscription.

I'd prefer to just post main channel videos more frequently and shake this perfectionist paralysis that's been holding me back these last few years. The Tangents feel like good practice. But I don't want to put the majority of my creative output behind a paywall.

I'm not yet sure what the solution is, but I think the Tangents are a step in the right direction. The feedback you all gave me on the December Tangent was very positive, and I hope you enjoy this one too!

Let me know what you think, and as always thank you so much for your support.

All the best,

Natalie

Files

Tangent: New Atheism

Thanks so much for your support!

Comments

goosekingdom

thank you Natalie, excited to watch!

Bored Lacanian

Posted this on Twitter as well, but just to make sure you see this: I don't want to be a bummer here but since I noticed this in the previous Tangent as well: the audio is oddly bad, especially for this kind of high-end mic, it's rather tinny and sounds a little like you're constantly clipping. I'm sure there's a quick fix, be sure to check it out because the listening experience can be a little grating. Otherwise the content is great, it's awesome to have new Contrapoints content every month! Again, sorry if I'm coming in a little too harshly, since the Tangents seem to be working really well for both you and us, and I don't mean to shit on it, really, I just thought you should be aware of this, maybe some audio settings have gone wrong somewhere 😬

Stephen Brealey

I'm really enjoying the 'stripped down' nature of the tangents, and if it means more content with less pressure on you I'm all for it. I wouldn't mind them going public after a short delay–I'm less precious about it being Patreon exclusive and more happy just to have the output. Of course, I still dig the main channel videos in all their glory but the wait for those has become significantly less painful :)

kenkenkenkenken

Sounds like the playback speed is messed up. if you play at 1.25x it sounds better but a bit off. Probably somewhere inbetween 1x and 1.25x

Mikaela Cortez

Yaaay, as always, thanks for your sincerity and perspectives. Excited to watch!

Jessica Cheeri

It's good to hear the Tangents are helping you find the rhythm you've been looking for! I like that the format is similar to a long op-ed too. I'll be watching this one in a bit. Edit: I saw the new one and it's fantastic. I really like that you put it in context of the world we were living in at the time and the political Christianity of the GW Bush gov't. I'd forgotten all about the Draw Mohammed Day thing, but now it feels like one of the most important moments in explaining how rightwingery got in there. As for whether or not to make Tangents free to the public, I can see why you would want to release them. They're good, they're scripted, well made and can be pretty topical. OTOH, I can see why you wouldn't, since you need things for patrons and a smaller audience might be more helpful. I'd say maybe have them transcribed, since you've already done that to keep G1 ContraPoints available to people in a format you're comfortable with. As a patron, I wouldn't personally have a problem with them being released. I got on Patreon in the first place to help my friends fund their projects and "I like what you're doing, is there anything I can help with?" is just a lot of what I'm about, tbh

Dapper Sappho

Don’t be embarrassed, but uh…I used your New Atheist vids back in the day. If it’s any consolation though, I don’t remember any of it

Joe

I'd keep it a Patreon exclusive, personally, as it seems to work for Jenny Nicholson. There are some rants of hers I can imagine that just wouldn't work on a mainstream scale because they're either too niche or creative etc, but her audience still loves them. You can create whatever you want knowing it's only going to be seen by people who are invested in you.

CoffeePoints

I think what you're noticing is that she's speaking more slowly/hesitantly than normal. Or at least the begining bits that I've seen are.... Plus, I doubt the room she's in was designed for optimal acoustics. She probably just sat down in front of her computer and hit record.

Lux C.

Thanks for the new video Natalie, made my day a bit better seeing new content pop up from u. Also, I'm in the 'keep them exclusive' camp personally

Bored Lacanian

No, not at all, this is not what I'm talking about, the audio just sounds tinny or overcompressed somehow. As for hitting record and the room acoustics: yeah, that's the weird part. The AMA streams sound absolutely fine and there was zero amount of (post-)processing going into them. This is why I think some settings might be off. Again, I don't want to be overtly critical here, but it does sounds jarring to my ear, I'm not sure how no one is noticing it. Like, I'm not trying to complain about production value, I realize she's churning these off pretty quickly and that's the point, I'm just thinking it probably has a quick fix that probably wouldn't take up any significant amount of time, that's all.

D.A.R.

Not two but three of the "Four Horsemen" were educated at Oxford. Harris was the exception.

Bored Lacanian

It's possible that she's compressing it so that it uploads quicker and that's what causes this? That could be it actually, because really this mic sounds fine on its own, and it's a dynamic mic so I don't think it's picking up on the rest of the room really, just letting it record as it does without any processing should be perfectly fine

Jazz Jackrabbit

Weird....I didn't get an email notification about this post. I only found out through Twitter. Hope that's just a one time thing.

highclass_lady

I don't think there's anything mid about your content, but so glad you've found a healthier relationship with content creation through this, & a way to diffuse the creative paralysis & anxiety. I can't even begin to imagine the impact that years of ceaseless demands & relentless criticism would have on perfectionism & fear, but Natalie you are not a mere means to your content, you're an incredibly amazing woman & you deserve to be living a joyful, fulfilling, & beautiful life. I know there's no fix-all, but finding an approach where content creation works for you in fitting & sustainable ways is such progress! Your well-being matters, genuinely happy that this new format is making things better!

CoffeePoints

I didn't get it either. Just randomly opened up Twitter and saw that this was a thing

Robert Daniel Pickard

Great video. I was on the New Atheist train and the beginnings of gamergate. Thankfully I got off but I still try to reflect on it and you articulated what I bounced off of in a better way then I ever came up with. I really appreciate it because it's helped me recon with why i stuck around as long as i did

Caio Cerruti

i loved it natalie, great as always, congratulations on your work 😊

Gianov D Parkovich

I was able to share the groomer libel video link with a small group of friends, and they could see it even though it wasn't public so idk. Also, I don't know if it's just me or something on my end but I hear an odd ringing on that mic, especially through headphones.

run_away

Excited to watch this : ) Just a thought, but do you think that if you made them public, the sort of paralysis that drives you to ultra-double-triple-check your normal videos might come back? I'd imagine at least some of that anxiety is caused by... I don't want to say fear of cancellation, but I guess fear that an oversight in the script might provoke hostility etc. Whereas your patrons are probably more likely to take mistakes charitably since we're stans.

pt

yas mother

Bruno Sauvagnat

That was a very good video, interesting and definitly gives me a new perspective on a movement I was at best aware of via the spaghetti monster joke and Hbomberguy videos that came years after elevator gate. Thanks for your hard work.

Jess Lupini

I saw your post about this on twitter and it reminded me i needed to start supporting you on patreon! Really enjoyed this video. I grew UP on this garbage, which at the time felt SO liberating, and like something i could form an identity around. Then, like many others, the cracks started to show as i realized that the movement was NOT friendly to the folks who needed it most (my trans ass included). I still get into somewhat frustrating discussions with my dad about it sometimes. He was following Dawkins and Hitchens and co long before I came on the scene, and they really helped him form a language for how to understand the way catholicism was forced upon him as a child. For people who only follow these guys via their books and the odd lecture, all this online context is totally missing, and VERY hard to fill in the blanks about. I really appreciate your thoughts and feelings (which facts don't care about, obviously) — looking forward to more of these!

kkikibunny

my favorite part about these videos is the background. that makes me sound like a stalker, but what i’m saying is that your interior design is impeccable

august

I cannot emphasize enough how much I appreciate these tangents. Thank you Natalie!!

Razzek

If these are helping you get past a block by being more exclusive, feel free to keep them that way no matter what folks say :) Although I for one wouldn't feel cheated if they went public down the line. Whatever works for you best is what you need to do and the audience will adapt to that

Austin F

my parents are both new atheists, actually. my mom is way more aggressive about it than my dad (to the level of a 2000s atheist, lol), but i actually find my dad's journey to atheism a lot more interesting. my dad grew up in rural montana in a catholic family, and the experience was exactly what it sounds like. as he grew up, he saw the abuses of the catholic church towards the people who were in the congregation. he saw the homophobia, he saw the bullying, he saw the hypocrisy, all of it. and he became incredibly disillusioned with all of it by the time he turned 18. eventually, he moved out (not because of religion, just for college), and he got into hippie stuff - for context, this was in the 80s. he made a ton of counterculture friends. and he only separated more from the catholic upbringing. since then, my grandmother (his mother) has stayed in the church, and has only become more and more radical, to the point of being a trump supporter. my dad insists on defending her when he can, but it's clear that she hurts him, doing things like ignoring his calls, coming to town and not telling him, etc. i can understand how someone like my dad would end up in new atheism. (luckily, he didn't go into the anti-feminist stuff, lol). shame it didn't end up living up to our hopes.

Austin F

also lmao the rappin for jesus shoutout

Ren

this one's gonna be great, i can tell!!!!

BorisS

plus the banana argument from Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort

BorisS

Really enjoyed this one Natalie.

Andy Pucko

the problem with Hitchens is that, like a lot of geezers at the time, he lost his shit after 9/11 and never really got it back (though i do give him credit for having himself waterboarded). maybe he could have clawed his way back if he hadn't died of cancer. his peers certainly didn't- and most of them are still around.

nimbledickcrabb

So basically a lot of castration anxiety was going around after 9/11.

Dr Jo

Good background description of New Atheism.

anon

Take all the practice you need to make mid-tier content!

Deaven Mazibuko

Tangents are a slay, continue this activity

The Tarquin

Thank you for making these. If it matters at all, I advocate for making them public. I contribute to your Patreon because I want to see more of your work in the world, not because I get anything specific in return. If these videos were public, I would still be a happy contributor every month.

Dr Jo

So you philosophically reject New Atheism, not only because of a lack of social justice concern, but because you reject Enlightenment principles (i.e. reason, science, humanism)? Or do you philosophically reject New Atheism because of the manner of which new atheists have conducted themselves in the past, especially against marginalised groups?

Savannah

This is a subject I'm so curious to hear your thoughts about, can't wait to watch it soon :) But just wanted to point out I didn't get any email notification that it was published for some reason... I only knew about it because I saw your twitter post!

Zach High-Leggett

My favourite part of the thunderf00t saga was when they invited him to join Freethought Blogs because he was so well known for his anti-creationism content and then he proceeded to make every single blog post be about how women lie about rape until they kicked him off the platform.

Brian Walters

I watched every Hitchens debate I could find on YouTube way back in this time. He really was an entertaining speaker and debater. Took me a while to figure out how weird and fucked up his worldview was. I remember he wrote that bizarre article about how "women aren't funny." Dude had some serious internalized misogyny, lol. I think I quit the new atheist train when I watched Sarkeesian's videos. I just found even when I was skeptical, they were convincing and had good arguments. Which is exactly what the process the new atheists claim to use.

Martin Tepper

For what it's worth, I don't care about exclusivity, I just like to chip in for people that make things I enjoy :)

Maya

re: making tangents public, some creators I follow on Patreon make bonus episodes periodically, and then occasionally release old bonus episodes to their main feed when they need to take a week off. Since it's more sporadic than "every episode gets made public a month later," it feels "exclusive enough," because unless you subscribe there's no guarantee when/if you'll be able to access bonus content, while still taking things out from behind the paywall eventually. Another type of compromise to consider!

Mars Hall

I didn't find new atheism until around 2011 lol. I'm from a very small town in Kentucky so it was pretty rare to find people that felt the same way I did. I fell out during gamer gate (thank god). I'm glad a part of it eventually evolved into a leftist space that I could get back into. Honestly I think thunderf00t is the reason I left. He was so obsessed with Anita sarkeesian it turned me off lol. Love you Natalie keep it up!

Kirsty Barnes

I was really nervous to start this video because I have Feelings about the New Athiest movement, and I always squirm whenever a breadtuber yells "LOL NEW ATHIESM HOW CRINGE" before completely skirting the subject of religion. But as usual your insight proves nuanced and compassionate. It was also the first social movement I ever felt like I was a part of, and watching it turn into a dumpster fire of reactionary infighting was really tragic.

Declan Maguire

Hey Nat, I feel that maybe a 3 month gap between patreon and main publishing would be about right - long enough that patrons can feel rewarded for support and it wouldn't be trivial to wait, but still short enough to be timely. As for issues regarding polish and fact-checking and stuff, I think that very prominent framing could help - like, starting each episode with text cards held for a longish while saying "TANGENTS - Rough, under-factchecked..." etc or something. Perhaps an explicit invitation for commenters to correct mistakes in a comment, pinning the best ones. Also if you do one on trans men it could be called TRANSGENTS.

CrystalJade

Fabulously interesting work Natalie! Tangents are great - and from your comments it seems to me that perhaps you feel a freedom of expression that might be something of a creative block when you publish material to the world at large. Maybe a higher sense of duty in the face of a risk of unwarranted public criticism online. If this is the case and you find creating them helpful, I’d suggest that you might also think about using tangents to act as a sounding board for small parts of your main content. Particularly if it helps us to help you in the process!

Drewwww

tangents are so gooood! i feel like this video was the history of how your channel came to be

Johnny Astro

I wouldn't mind at all if the Tangents went public. For me personally, I don't need exclusive content to "justify" my subscription to you. I just like your content and want to support you in whatever way I can. :)

CrystalJade

On this tangent I couldn’t help thinking that both theism and atheism seem like essentialist positions to take in the face of an existentialist uncertainty in life. Like as if conceptualisations of ‘god’ must either be everything or nothing depending on the stance taken. To me these are coping mechanisms e.g. a type of fervent reductionism in science vs a belief in unexplained supernatural forces. However underlying both sides of the coin that uncertainty still exists. Perhaps that might drive how this debate has bled into so many areas of society that affect people. Particularly when we’re talking about political stances. It’s notable too that even more unhinged / conspiratorial fringe beliefs tend to propagate in the face of a real world uncertainty - well maybe apart from flat earth! I wasn’t expecting that this tangent subject would be so thought provoking (I voted true crime and harpsichord shopping!) and feel that’s a feature of all of your best work! It makes me want to listen to ‘At war with the mystics’ which is now about to happen! 🌈🦄🤩

Katherine De Chant

On the question of making these public: for me at least, the appeal of being a patron is much less about exclusive perks and much more about feeling like I'm helping support a content creator so she can focus on creating content full time. I'm of the opinion that the world is improved when your voice is heard in it, so I'm all for increasing the amount of publicly available Contrapoints videos! Of course, if making them public would put a lot more pressure on you to make them perfect or would prevent you from engaging with controversial YouTube topics, you can keep them private. It's entirely your decision based on what would make you most comfortable, but I don't want you to think that you'd be somehow disincentivizing patrons by releasing the exclusives--quite the opposite, in my case!

Wissa

Honestly I think the main thing you could consider about whether to make tangents public or patreon is if it would affect how you feel or approach the videos you do. More privacy can potentially be freeing and less stressful, and public will obviously bring in more feedback perhaps wanted or unwanted. If keeping it private is more comfortable in this sense, I’d go with that, but if public is more motivating, then go with that! Outstanding tangent, btw. My only curiosity is what you think about the newer more prominent skeptics like CosmicSkeptic. He seems to not fall into any older atheist bubble. Anyway, keep it up!

Oliver G

Fwiw, I support the idea of making the Tangents public, but I also understand if you may be hesitant to do so. I think its worth mentioning that it doesn’t necessarily need to be a binary choice: you can make some Tangents public when you feel its warranted and keep others exclusive (especially if its a more “cancellable” topic lol)

Whatever

Congratulations on another great video.

Malorie

Personally I don't mind them being private! They are great and I am still able to share with my freeloader husband. I feel like if they were public you would just feel pressure to make them as perfect as you already make your main channel vids. That said, if you decide to make them public, I'll stay subscribed to patreon

Daniel Loizos

Hi Natalie, At the risk of sounding like a kiss-arse, I didn't come for the free stuff. I came to support you, because I like your videos. (Plus I missed my chance of asking questions on the AMAs!). I support you coz you're teaching me about things I didn't know before. Anyway, just my 5p's worth. Thanks for the tangent. I hope Thunderf00t made it in there. Best wishes, Daniel PS I started watching "why do people laugh at creationists" in 2012, and fell down a rabbit hole...1st Thunderf00t, Ray Comfort, Aron Ra, Sye Ten B, The Hovinds!....Rob the Atheist etc. Those guys got me into epistemology. Actually, it's probably because of them, that I found your channel. Philosophy fascination causes Philosophy fascination. Ah, Natalie, this is a good piece you've created! I find all this religious/new atheism stuff super interesting. PPS Natalie, you liked my post. You made me so happy. Thanks a lot :) I hope you're well. HURRAY YOU MENTIONED THUNDERF00T!!! AND RAY\o/ \o/ \o/!!!! I am really pleased with this tangent. Most of all I am glad to hear you speaking about the difficulties that Muslims suffered, after 9/11. I am 12 years older than you, and when Iraq/Afganistan happened, I marched against the wars, and was heart broken that my country (The UK) could be so horrible and bigoted about an almost completely peaceful group. This is a fantastic piece, mate. You've done so well. Keep it up.

Sophia

Catastrophically, this video has reminded me that I used to get into YouTube arguments with creationists when I was in middle school, and I still have some of that correspondence saved in my old gmail. I just clicked on an email from 2009 addressed to the creator of a video called “The Question Atheist Can’t Answer!”, and the very first thing I see is a long message from 8th grade me that started like this: “I attached photos of early human skulls.” Foppington’s law in action 🤣🤣

Daniel Loizos

I thought was Fobbington? If Foppington, that's even funnier. A Fop is old English for "someone who is preoccupied with and often vain about their clothes and manners; a dandy."

Asli

I'm here for the Hitchens content. Love that you were a Hitchens fan girl too, lol.

Sophia

Also, I failed to say this in my last comment but this video is SUPERB — Natalie thank you so much for making it. As others have said already, I also totally support keeping some work patreon-only. Perfectionism can be so personally destructive and I’m really glad that you’re finding ways to create things in spite of it.

Ryan Storey

Yeah, it's possible that she didn't notice because sometimes in OBS, your mic's audio quality just decides to degrade completely despite the fact that you haven't messed with any settings. It's super annoying.

Grace Douglas

I have watched you for years and just signed up for the $2 Patreon because you started making these! I love the concept. I think it’s totally valid to keep them Patreon exclusive for a good period of time, it adds value for members.

run_away

This is fantastic: ) I think one thing slightly missing from this discussion is Fox News, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and also Bill Maher. It's true that modern YT culture was inspired by new atheism, but new atheism was so heavily influenced both as a reaction to and as a refute to Fox News and the deeply aggressive rhetoric employed there and in its copycats. Bill Maher, a sexist and unpleasant individual, was the only outspoken liberal on television for years that had anything like a Fox News following, and he employed the Foxian tendency to ridicule and shout down his opposition and call it logic. Jon Stewart was a counterpoint (I often think of Stewart and Natalie as a bit analogous, likewise Vaush and Maher), still with the ridicule but significantly less hostility. One of the few post-911 political figures who was desperately trying to descelate cultural rhetoric. But for a long, long time it was Fox and Limbaugh ruthlessly beating down secularism and 1990s and 2000s social justice movements. So Dawkins took his cues from that and responded in kind. And it still lingers in the DNA of the new atheism movement as this video explores. Great video <3

King Scene

I personally don't mind a pay-what-you-want-trapoints subscription model, I know James Stephanie Sterling has been doing it that way for years.

10 Ten 235 J

I think it’s very meaningful that you didn’t mention Sam Harris at all. I would have enjoyed hearing you give your opinion on him, but he’s also the type to make social media beef, and perhaps enough has already been said about him. Maybe you could even join his podcast one day, so no reason to burn the bridge. 🤷

Ryan Storey

Listening to this served as a huge reminder of just how Chronically Online I was in the 2010s. In the early to mid 2010s, I watched a few Atheist YouTubers, mainly Mr.Repzion and Jaclyn Glynn. But I ultimately moved on to LeftTube content once I became disillusioned by how anti-feminist and conservative these Atheist YouTubers were becoming. Their content was just lazy, too. I just could not understand why all these people were so hung up on Anita fucking Sarkeesian. This is why when I found ContraPoints in late 2016 (yes, I've been there since the beginning lol), I found her such a breath of fresh air because YouTube at the time was becoming so right wing and there was almost nobody to counter it. ContraPoints and Hbomberbuy were the first to really get a solid dunk on the alt right. It was also during this time I began to discover my queer identity and it was thanks to Natalie being so unabashedly herself so publicly. And I found a huge community of leftist queer people on Twitter. Then I started getting disillusioned with that once this community started getting so oversensitive and eating their own over trivial nonsense. That was when I realized that I needed to get off Twitter and go touch some grass. I'm still a little Chronically Online, but I feel like I actually have a life now and more real-life responsibilities, so a lot of the trivial things that used to outrage me in niche Twitter communities just don't bother me anymore. I'm grown, I have bills to pay, I just don't care about any of that anymore.

Alice

Great tangent! I was raised in a liberal christian home, and coming out as an atheist felt like a big deal to me even though it really wasn't. I got into reading books and articles written by the Four Horsemen in the early 2000s when I was in undergrad. I even liked Hitchens and similar liberal hawks enough to support the Iraq war until 2004. I really believed the war would make the world a better place by spreading secular democracy. Like you, I grew disillusioned and hope I've gotten more educated since then.

Rosie McFarland

I like the Tangents being exclusive to Patrons, and I admire that you hold yourself to such a high standard for your main channel. Fewer high quality videos on the main is a good thing to aim for imo

Ante Lindblom

How about you make one video on YouTube where you talk about a topic, and then you make a longer video on Patreon where you talk more about that topic?

Sergio Augusto

I think patreon exclusive is a great idea. Specially if it is helping you shake the perfectionism paralysis. I love that you can be more relaxed with this content and you feel comfortable sharing it with us. I think it's special that we're helping you there. I haven't visited patreon that often in general but the tangents definitely make me want to check in. Also I'm at the lowest entry level for your patreon. If you put these on a higher tier you would have all the right to do it. But I don't really feel you're paywalling the content if these are available for the "entry price".

Adrian Facchi

You could make them public after some months. After 6 months maybe. Or make one public and another one not public. Alternate them like that

Lily-Gre

Love you Natalie!!

Hellvetika

Absolutely loving these tangent videos. They may not have the glitz, jokes, presentation, etc. of your larger scale videos, but the core of what draws us to your work is totally there; nuanced/reasonable insight that makes us feel like there are sane people in this black & white world. Also I'm 32 and gay so... I definitely fell into new atheism as a teenager for a few years out of pure resentment of feeling like I had to be closeted, and I fully agree with everything you've said here As for how to handle the availability of these videos, I would keep debuting them here and then switch the listing to public after a certain period of time (3 months? 1 month seems too soon and 6 months seems too long)

asha

i do think keeping them paywalled might help to keep the pressure off, but i can’t predict how you feel. regardless, i love hearing your thoughts regardless. ps i’ve been watching your videos as movie nights with my family and it’s actually so fucking fun (highly recommend)

michaela

I think having them as patreon-exclusive content is fine because accessing them is relatively inexpensive, and if $2 is too onerous to pay for monthly, people can pay for one month here and there to get the past ones they missed while being unsubscribed

Ben Singer

As a contrasting data point I want to announce that I am a huge fan but also a miscreant and a freeloader and would not be a Patreon contributor if I could watch these for free (but they're definitely more than worth the price you're charging)

Yousuf Kazmi

Maybe release a 5 to 10 min teaser to the Live channel? Tangents is the paywall content that funds for the main channel and being patreon exclusive allows the video to be "quick & dirty" to make. There is always scope to release a full video to the main or live channel in the future, but keeping these Tangents low consequence is key to getting them monthly, rather then say getting a January AMA in June ! Loving the new Tangents series and don't want any additional creator stress to spoil it.

Jordan

I really enjoyed this one, Natalie, I definitely delved deep into this brand of Atheism during early YT, and felt the same type of discomfort w its development into the late 2010s that you chronicle here. Thanks for the walk down memory lane!

Raoul (just me)

Hey Nat, those last two tangents both felt like secret contrapoints videos considering the amount of thought you put into them. however, if you decide to release the videos at some point to the general public, I wouldn't mind at all and I’m sure many patrons would agree. In my opinion, this last video in particular, which thematically relates to the Bush era and the early 2010s and not to a recent event, could be suitable for this, even if you post it sometimes later. you could also post it on your live channel, for example, if you think the production effort doesn't match your main channel. Great video btw!!

Kathleen

This was such a great video. I have seen nerdy machismo pretending to be “reason” in real life, and you helped me understand it better. It’s weird finally seeing a part of history that I lived through getting discussed (I’m getting old). The end of the video made me think about how often political parties have become a religious dogma in their own right, and seeing how many male atheists fell for such stupid ideas really points that out. Groupthink is too powerful. Also, I loved how you pointed out how you can’t facts and logic your way into being a kind caring person, and people inherently aren’t very logical.

S. R.

I was in the "queer nerd" periphery of the nu atheist stuff at a similar age - I remmeber elevatorgate discussions on LiveJournal. It's interesting to compare then to now, where I feel queer nerd spaces (at least where I am on Twitter and tumblr) are fairly hostile to atheists in general. There seems to be a concept that there is no such thing as an atheist in truth, only "non practicing (insert religion)", since religion=culture and you cannot unlearn/renounce your own culture. It makes sense to a point - I remmeber my big disillusionment came when I realized so many shitty cishet male atheists just moved from using religion to justify sexism, homophobia, antiblackness etc to using "science and data." Evopsych etc.

godliath

This was such a great Tangent to listen to. I'm about the same age as you and caught a mild interest in new atheism around the same time, though I never directly participated in the communities. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain why this brand of cringe was so appealing to people at this time, lol -- yes, it's highly embarrassing now, but it was grounded in good reasons. My feelings about religion to this day continue to be Not Favorable even in the best of circumstances, so I really really REALLY felt your ending sentiment about it being anti-social. Additionally, as a Patreon subscriber I'd totally be down for you to release these later for free. I think the insights you have on these topics are quite valuable, especially given your style of approaching them with compassion and nuance. However I totally understand if there's a sense of comfort in producing something for a smaller more engaged audience, where you aren't feeling the pressure of perfectionism.

LC

Awesome video Natalie! Thank you 💝

queerly beloved

So excited to watch this! :) Also -- I'm in favor of keeping the Tangents Patreon-only. Your YouTube vids are whole documentary movies! They're so long, it's plenty of free content. The Tangents are well worth paying for Patreon-access.

Octopus

I think tangents should be patreon only! I also hope it makes you feel more comfortable saying things without needing a million caveats to keep you from getting canceled. Although Ik anything you say anywhere, even behind a paywall, can still put you in hot water. But still, I hope it helps.

S. R.

Oh cringe memories are being unlocked....I went to a Tim Minchin concert and was legit impressed at his song about smug centrism... (still enjoy some of his other songs honestly)

Mihai PM

Loved the tangent! But something seems wrong with the audio. It seems “metallic”?? Not too disturbing, but I guess it could be slightly improved. Ily!

Morrigan

ilysm also I'm drunk

Sarah Rosenthal

Sooo excited for this! And I don't necessarily mind the tangents being public. I guess for folks who want exclusivity you could have patrons vote on topics for future tangent videos? Regardless, hurray for the creative block starting to lift!

Liam Kennedy

I had never even heard of the term 'New Atheism', very interesting tangent. But I think you might need to use this patron money to buy a new microphone, unless that ringing is just on my end

Marstead

For what it's worth I have seen other content creators with bonus content, like podcast bonus episodes, where bonus episodes become public after a LONG time, like ~6 months to ~1 year. I still think that makes the Patreon have big value.

Aurora

Keep them behind a paywall! It’s not inappropriate to ask people to pay for your work. If others want to share it, they should tell the people they want to share it with to subscribe to your pat.

mm

I agree with folks saying make it public 6 months to a year later.

Livs

Love the tangents, but also love the high production quality and research of your main YT channel. Like the hunger was a work of art I keep coming back to, and I wouldn't mind waiting if that meant another such. My 2 cents would be make tangents public on YT after 3-6 months-- some people just don't have the funds esp. in developing countries, but also keep making the high quality, hunger-like videos at a sustainable pace

diego kontarovsky

i think this creative paralysis is a typical problem. i've noticed that with my own writing. the more you care about something, the more pressure you put on yourself to make it perfect, and the harder it is to write. but then you work on something that you feel doesn't have to be perfect, and you end up not only being way more productive, but also producing something great, because the pressure was off and your brilliance came through anyway. so really the best way to "trick yourself" with anything creative is to give yourself permission to make that "mid" content, and it probably won't end up being so "mid" after all

Ruth Sangree

I think you're entitled to keep tangents behind a paywall (obviously) but I also think if you flagged that you're doing these monthly tangents you would get even more subscribers.

Mar de Silencio

Really loved the tangent!! About these going public, I think after some time (3, 4 months?) would be nice. That way it's still a reward, the patrons vote for the topic, but the rest of your audience get content more regularly and the paywall is'nt so thick. That way you can also work on the long main videos without the pressure of "I need to make it shorter this time unless they will end me". Thanks for all your work!!

Thomas

I have no issue with these videos going public anytime, I'm not a paying member for exclusive stuff but just to support the work. That said, I think having these videos be aimed at a deliberately smaller, probably more positive audience might be helping with the very issues tthat make main channel videos so hard to produce, so I'd be more invested in making sure you're balancing that right. Which means do whatever is right for you!

Suzy

had a similar experience growing up in new atheism and feeling simultaneously as though being subjected to the nerdy misogyny that you referenced was not worth it but also a sense of liberation in rejecting the culture of my small and conservative town that was incredibly unkind to me. love that you spoke to all of this. also thank you for bringing christian side hug out of the dusty corners of my memory.

Sara Cleto

Loved it - I'm so happy you started doing these tangents! If you want to make them public, go for it, but if keeping them behind a paywall/ for patrons only helps conquer the creative paralysis, please keep doing what you're doing!

Kalyna Horocholyn

Incredible video. Very reminiscent of your first waves of videos, and your compelling script and research comes across even without the opulent aesthetics which I know is so much work to create

Kalyna Horocholyn

p.s. Muslima is the noun referring to a Muslim woman, so Richard Dawkins addressed his response to Elevatorgate to a nameless Muslim woman

Rhiannon Louve

Thank you for the perspective and honesty of this video. I was raised Mormon and have been Pagan since about 1993. It's always been interesting to me that while Mormon, atheists and other monotheists often wanted to argue with me or convert me, though very few were overtly rude or hostile. After I became a polytheist, my monotheist friends seemed to decide I was a fascinating alien. Some were honestly more respectful than they'd been when I was Mormon, if in an exoticist sort of way. My atheist friends, by contrast, became increasingly cruel, disrespectful, and bullying, even when I spoke of my religious beliefs in primarily psychological, astronomical, and humanistic terms (I'm a very sciency Pagan, but really a lot of us are). Atheists I spoke with were also often quite defensive and dismissive when I pointed out how much more religious disrespect I experienced from atheists than monotheists. However, I too have noticed that among the atheists around me there's been a major shift in the last few years, a kind of humility among the nicer atheists, of realizing they're subject to the human failings of bigotry and irrational bias like everyone else, and maybe the problem isn't a possibly-imaginary "God". Maybe it's an unwillingness to face one's own (and one's society's own) inner "demons". Every belief system can be intelligent and healthy, and every belief system can be foolish and cruel. It's a matter of interpretation and nuance, and it's how you live your life that matters.

M.m. Wright

I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm loving the new wallpaper and needed to tell you immediately.

Sam T

I don't know if I'm reflective of your average Patreon patron, but exclusivity doesn't really matter to me. It warms my heart to hear you describe Tangents as "freeing" to you. Regardless of where you put the Tangents in the future, I'm greatly enjoying them. Your analysis and insight is always very comforting to me.

David Callahan

Thank you. I appreciate your self-reflection and willingness to share.

Lorenzo Nericcio

This is beautiful. hmu if you would like to be converted to episcopalianism.

Lorenzo Nericcio

Also check out the misenchantments podcast we have an ep on this that is pleasantly supplemental in my view

Thomas McBride

another banger. man i remember all that new atheism stuff. what a cringy trip down memory lane

Aristana Scourtas

Man, I forgot how incredibly painful and gaslighty the misogyny of the 2000s and 2010s was. Like, as shitty and dumb as those Thunderfoot videos were about Anita Sarkeesian, that’s truly all it took for other men in the room to not take you seriously as a woman.

Lynn Short

I came late to the game of atheism thought (spent 17 years in a weird cult so the early new atheism is not something I would have been in contact with) so I missed most of this controversy. I can see with the way Natalie has laid this out how much influence that culture had on the now alt right and fuck that sucks. Like does that mean they created Ben Shapiro and Jordan BP??? Gads!! And BTW Natalie, you were one of the first persons I watched that helped me along my journey as I was leaving the cult so thanks so much for that influence. Cheers.

Blaire Frei

If you did post these publicly, I think the best option would be to make a Tangents YT channel separate from your main one. Then, your main channel maintains its level of quality while allowing you to post more. I’ve seen more and more creators do this and both channels benefit each other in the end. Great work as always Natalie!

Gavin Needham

Such a big group of new atheist movement was filled with people that were bullied and found a way to be a bully themselves. They found a target that they can laugh at and make fun of because “hurr durr bible stoopid”. Like, in Hitchens’ interview with Cooper, he’s just bullying Falwell in the same way that Falwell bullied everyone else. It’s also pretty obvious to see the amazing atheists reaction to elevator gate of bullying.

Austen G

You do you, Miss Points. I didn’t go to YouTube business school, I don’t know what the answer is. It’s a damn good video tho.

Oliver 'Kannik' Bollmann

That last bit is incredible! "Macho posturing" I think is so right on. I joke and say I blame Descartes for making 'thinking' and 'reason' as the pinnacle of existence within the western mindset (while conveniently relegating those 'emotional' women to their proper place lower on the evolution ladder). It's total caca, and the funny/worse thing about it is that, all to often, we are not rational but rationalizing creatures. And the more we make our feelings and emotions and assumptions and biases wrong, the more we pretend we are above them, the more susceptible to them we actually become and are. And nerds/geeks can be the worst at it, since so much of our identity is founded on that mantle of knowing and being 'smart' about things that anything that challenges our (false) deduction(s) is a threat to our very being. But being a Vulcan is not and should not be the goal -- having emotions and feeling things is not integral to who we are, but it's what we live for and makes life great. Whether sports or movies or base jumping or hanging out or whatever, we love our experiences and emotions. Emotions vs reason is such a false dichotomy -- the integration of both is the game to play. Holding them and embracing them both, not resisting, and not giving into either of them. Then we are whole and operating at our best (and experiencing it too). Fabulous tangent video, thank you!

Thaumatomane

Magnificent as always! What an absolutely fascinating modern intellectual and social history! I started my undergrad in 2010 and have always been a bit of a luddite, so YouTube was a place to listen to music until about 2016. So I missed almost all of this (including gamer gate). Yet, I have been aware of the shadow cast by the early Internet on present discussions. This was so helpful in contextualizing all this!

Karolina Hellner Henberg

The Patreon subsciptions are mainly a way for us to monetarily support the work you're already doing. We're paying for the service you're already providing on your channel. Subsciptions don't actually need to be justified for I think most of us with bonus material. Extra stuff for subscibers is welcome, but certainly not needed.

omri haber

What is the name of the piece being played in the background in the end?

Zac Kenney

Oh god some of the names and memes of this era threw me back. I was a *burgeoning* atheist gay boy in the mid 2000s too, trapped in a Catholic school in Nebraska no less. (Alexa, play Ethel Cain) For me, the queer social Justice side of atheist YouTube was, to be superfucking ironic, a god-send. Watching the community split into Alt-right neckbeards vs SJW kids right as I got to college was so wild. At the end of the day most of us were just cringey kids at the school of edgy knocks drowning in the primordial soup of new age social media. We found something to bond over, feel like rebels against the establishment, and fight for a cause. Nowadays, I could not possibly care less to discuss religion with strangers. Unfortunately we have to because people have politicized religious beliefs to the point where it’s impossible to have conversations about things like abortion or LGBT issues without someone mentioning it. But at no point in “the discourse” is my goal to convince anyone that religion is stupid or they shouldn’t be religious. I just don’t care. And I think that’s growth.

Lauren Sternhagen

Like others I didn't really join the Patreon to get exclusive content I just felt it was not appropriate for me to get all this without contributing a little when I can. Just like my tiny wiki donations every month and my taxes so my vote is to at least open content after a time in the pattern of movie releases and streaming sites as you mentioned. Seems a reasonable compromise. Tho I won't stop my contribution if you opened it all up immediately to everyone. This channel feels like Khan academy w style.

Thomas Menzel-Berger

awesome video, this connected a lot of blind spots from the 2010s for me

Timid and Meek

Natalie this is so awesome! I have been hoping for the New Atheism topic to win the voting and I'm so glad it did. I love it and I love where Contrapoints is heading now. For the Tangents and paywall stuff, I don't mind Tangents being public after a while; I don't mind it not being exclusive. That being said, I know setting the video to the public will open it to public scrutiny which is often less charitable. If that gives you creative paralysis having to achieve a higher standard and therefore delay things, then I'd rather you keep it unlisted for the patrons only. My desire as a patron is to see you more frequently and have more frequent updates on your main channel work.

Elise Azam

I relate to the “what to post publicly and what should be exclusive content because I’m currently only able to finish one of those things” question. I’ve been a fan since 2018 and I loved this video. The stripped down content seems like a logical progression from making incredible but increasingly ornate, complex videos that are impossible to follow up. I was also a big Hitchens fan in 2006. I tried to ignore his shittier beliefs because he was, like you said, an excellent speaker and bitingly funny. I remember watching clips of him winning debates against interchangeable creationists despite being extremely drunk.

Piiu

It makes me so happy this video exists. Having grown up in a society where not having a religion is the norm and religion is rarely discussed, the concept of atheism has always fascinated me. I am quite familiar with the channels and events mentioned in this video, but always felt that I lacked the context to understand them. This has helped breach the gap a bit, so thank you! I've also never considered myself an atheist cause (due to my exposure to the internet) I thought that the fedora atheism was the only kind and you have to oppose [a certain] religion. But to oppose something you have to be exposed to it. I consider religion a cultural thing, just like - for example - cuisine. Some people have strong opinions about it that I'm not qualified to argue with cause I've only had a small taste of it. Being an atheist FEELS like I'd have to call myself anti-pasta just because I don't cook much Italian food.

ProfessorWham

Thanks so much for this video. I'm not an atheist, but I've always valued the questions and challenges of genuine atheist inquiry---especially when it con-fronts the deepest existential challenges. As an American Muslim (yes,

ProfessorWham

many of us are now considered a separate breed) my only other observation is to mention that it is only certain schools of historical theological interpretation that strictly forbade the depiction of Muhammad. In Central Asia and Iran there are many pictures of him--it's the politically weird relationship between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia that has allowed their peculiar form of Sunni Shar'ia to be recognized as representative of all Muslims. But I wouldn't expect you or anyone else reading this to necessarily know that--although it does speak to the hypocrisy of the dominant political powers in the U.S. and their dependency on Saudi oil--thus, the irony of most of the 9/11 hijackers being Saudi. As someone who stands on the edge of belief and faith (they are not the same), atheism is always my check and companion.

Sarah

keep in mind - if you make things public, you’ll lose patrons. tbh i only subscribe to patreons that have content i want. depending on your circumstances and goals, base your decision on that. but don’t ignore the cold economic reality of the situation amazing video btw

Charles Harrington

I’m in favor of Tangents being Patreon only. The $ amount is quite low and I just think folks should support creators they like in this way. If people want to share with their friends, I dunno watch it together on Zoom or give them $2.

Thaumatomane

Also, I find it hilarious that your off-the-cuff, "tangent" videos are as good or better than most YouTube videos.

Aurora

This video is amazing. I was raised by two new atheists who had all the characteristic hostile views etc and it has taken me ages to sort through that programming and figure out which of my opinions are my own and which are theirs. But i was obviously too young at the time to realize that my parents were part of a movement, and not just two random assholes. Thanks for putting my childhood into context lol. Love your work!

Anna Komnene

I'don't mind to have them public after some time.... this content is very good

Libra Frills

I totally understand feeling stuck between patreon exclusive vs eventually public. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other; I'll continue to support your Patreon as long as Im able to because your videos mean lot to me

Hannah Wise-Maas

"we are not rational but rationalizing creatures" - spot on!

Agusto

This was awesome. Love the new format and content!

Thekla

That is interesting, Sarah. I do the exact opposite. I don't really care for the perks, but want to ensure that my favorite creators are supported and keep on producing great content.

Thekla

Great video, Natalie! Just wanted to say that I personally don't really care for perks on patreon, but I support my favorite creators to ensure they can keep making great stuff for me to watch.

Leigh Bartel

Natalie put into words a lot of my skepticism (as it were) with the loud and out atheists in the late 2000s. Their group felt ironically religious at times and it did feel weirdly self-congratulatory. Like they'd discovered some truth that made them feel superior and that mattered more than anything else in that movement. They refused to view religion in any nuanced manner and it gave them permission to be really shitty to Muslims and other groups. I just found atheists cringe for a really long time.

Crescent Minor

Woof. I guess I didn't find the turn you described quite so clear while living through it, but I did have the feeling and something about this lens is unsurprising. A bunch of dudes scream that your God shouldn't get to tell them what to do, and they say do so for Rationality. Confront them with the unease that their lack of empathy for women causes, and they scream that now your feelings are the fiction that can't control them, and you find that really, it's their right to ignore the pain they cause others, the tyranny of the social pressure on them to attempt empathy, that they reject. This can be dressed up as a preference for Rationality because they are calling some Emotion (the OTHER person's) unimportant or false, and isn't discrediting a feeling such a Rational thing to do, but the feelings of their own of being misrepresented by the other person's fear, their hurt and frustration, these ones are very important and unassailable.

Rust Belt Rails

I'm entirely fine with the Tangents being made public. I was a patron before, and I'll still be a patron either way. If you don't want them to be widespread you could perhaps make them unlisted on youtube? It would allow people to share links with their friends while still keeping them mostly private. But, honestly, my patronage has nothing to do with exclusive access to anything and everything to do with wanting this kind of content to be made and distributed widely.

cerebral nerves

personally, I loved this tangent especially because I got into atheism 2020 and it was a very different crowd. The non-theist (pro-feminism, BLM, etc.) and atheist (kinda the fedora bros, but some women as well) schism had taken place in the Humanist community in my area. this context was really important to me and I always learn a lot from you! I'd be super happy if you want to make this publicly available anytime. I'll support you regardless. I also understand wanting to respect people's spiritual journeys, but dunking on Christianity will always have a special place in my heart because being raised with it, it's like picking on a sibling.

s

This was fantastic. Next up can you please "destroy" the smarmy, self-serving rationalist larping of Effective Altruism?

Gene Younkin

I say public or not is your call. I’m happy with more people getting to see your Tangents but if that doesn’t serve you best, keep them here. I liked this video a lot! It doesn’t have the dramatic presentation of, say, Cringe, (and I do love the presentation!) but it does have the substance. Substance is what keeps me coming back and if this strategy helps you produce more then I welcome it.

Regina Cuddeback

I'm leaning towards keeping them private. I wouldn't want them being public to create more work and concerns for you, if you're finding them freeing in the current format. Edit: i just watched the video and wow you've really articulated a lot of my feelings, especially as a lesbian atheist with a very Catholic mother (who's more upset that I'm an atheist than that I'm gay, go figure)

Olivia Rollins

This tangent is so good—I learned so much. I've been a big fan since 2018 and have always been a lot more into the intellectual (and emotional?) content of your videos than the costumes and production quality (though those parts are fun), and I am personally just so thrilled to be getting more of the wonderful Contra content that I've been missing. I could cry! I don't know that it would be financially viable to make these tangents entirely public, but I think it could be a good idea to release 5- or 10-minute chunks of them as "teasers" and/or to occasionally "unlock" one as a special treat for non-subscribers. Those are the tactics by which other creators have successfully enticed me to become a patron.

Zachary Robinson

Extremely good video. I'm so glad I subscribed. I've never seen someone put to words my history with the internet so well.

Andrea

Beginning around '02 and ending...wow, a few years ago, I had neither a TV nor a computer, not for cool points, I was just very poor and moving a lot. As such, I was about as disconnected as one could be from, well, everything you just So insightfully shared on this tangent. During this time period I dated a man who self-described as a "militant atheist". As I was someone who was born in Ozark, AL and raised in Hinesville, GA, I myself became an atheist simply bc I was so disgusted by the hypocrisy of Christianity, so at first I was on board with his "beliefs". However, it wasn't long before I found his POV, how shall I say this, a bit yikes-y? And I remember pointing out to him that he was ultimately behaving just as bigotedly (is that a word?) as the Christians he condemned. It ended up being a major reason why we broke up and I was always mystified as to why an otherwise nice guy could be Such an Ass. Now I know why

Andrea

Didn't mean to hit Post. Anyway, I just wanted to conclude with saying I'm in such admiration for how clearly you presented this topic without pandering to either side. You are truly and forever Contrapoints and we are all so fortunate to have you. I found this tangent (my first, hellooo 👋) so engrossing and will be revisiting this many times. Thank you, Natalie, you are a treasure to all the tender hearts and reeling minds trying to navigate this insane world 👏💖

Thrish Ogden

Every time one of these Tangents comes out I get so happy and excited!!

Cole

As someone in a social media bubble of mostly very multicultural leftists who I generally agree with, I have to say I was shocked when the Charlie Hebdo murders happened and several of my friends posted "both sides" apologia for the murders on Facebook because the magazine had published racist cartoons.

Ewen McNeill

Once again this Tangent is much nicer “Patreon bonus” material than the previous Q&A marathons. I’m glad you switched tack. And t found this one interesting too, as it linked together a bunch of USA specific skeptics / atheism / anti-feminism things that I’d heard mentions in the past, but hadn’t followed closely enough to know all the connections between them. I was amused by the idea 9/11 is far enough in the past (21 years!) to need explaining to younger audiences. In hindsight it seems a bit unreal that it happened as it did, but at the time it was unavoidable for years. Ewen

Addi_Oh

The cut at the end completely destroyed me lol

Rachel Muir

I enjoyed the video, but you really captured my attention at the end when you touched upon your own and current philosophy which you describe as Freudian. I am somewhere in that same neighborhood, sitting on the lawn outside your drawing room, braiding sweetgrass with Robin Kimmerer and other naturalists/scientists. I find it fascinating that science, supposedly the most rational practice of humans, is driven by emotion, the two good ones being wonder and curiosity. I just re-read Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, perhaps the most influential book of my undergraduate days, and while I think his ideas still generally hold true, his writing is a masterclass in "antlerclashing", (thank you for that wonderful descriptor). In 208 pages he could not muster a single feminine pronoun in describing the behavior of science and scientists. Having placed myself firmly in nerd world, I will say I enjoy all your work, "Shame" being my favorite. Been there, done that. Thank you.

Kristen Brabant

Wonderful video. I don’t think I ever realized we are so close in age until this one, and you really spoke to a lot of weird feelings I had around my ex and his friends in the early 2010s. They were all big Hitchens fans, and I couldn’t ever get on board. I had a lot of “aha” moments watching this. Regarding the paywall, I personally like it for the tangents. I think the big production videos are great for sharing, and bringing new people into your cult, but these are like wonderful lectures, and I don’t think it’s too much to ask interested parties to pay a couple dollars to see them.

Eric Kaplan

rationalism is ludicrous macho-posturing. yes!!

Veronica C. Morgan

I remember the rational response squad and the blasphemy challenge. I thought it was very telling that they understood the concept of blasphemy through the lens of equating it with denial of something's _existence_. Many years earlier, as a rebellious child, I had succumbed to a psychological need to declare "I curse the holy spirit" under the bedsheets at night. This would haunt me somewhat when I became a devoutly religious teenager, but I soon discovered commentaries and found solace there. In my late teens to early 20s I lived in the residential wing of a conservative theological college, where I debated creationists over coffee from a theistic evolutionist standpoint, and wrote Christian songs that reflected angstful struggles with my own kinky sexuality. My views on sexuality at the time were conservative, and I developed a sense that my destiny lay in becoming a missionary of sorts to others struggling with their own. However, in adulthood I grew disillusioned with religion and rejected it, but in a less rebellious way than the atheism of my childhood.

Veronica C. Morgan

Personally, in theory I subscribe in order to support the artist, but if I subscribed to every content creator I appreciate it would soon get overwhelming, so in practice I only subscribe if there are perks I'm interested in. However, by "perks" I mostly mean stuff like behind the scenes updates, early announcements, community membership, etc. Supplementary content that's potentially of interest to a broader audience is not what I subscribe for, and what the artist chooses to do with it down the line has no bearing on my support.

Thekla

I have one more thing to add: As Ewen McNeill in his comment said, I also did find it very refreshing that you explained what 9/11 was. As a European who doesn't know much of the weird people and stuff that is going on in the US, I even would feel thankful if you explained even more things and people. Just a few words of half a sentence after saying their names. This could help younger viewsers (or viewers in the distant future) as well.

Jason

Nathalie, this stuff is fantastic. Thank you so much for helping me make sense of the U.S. and of internet culture. It's such a breath of fresh air.

Reed

As a progressive Christian (theologically and politically, and open to healthy dialogue with other faiths) I always got a bit prickly to New Atheists because I'd always say "well no I don't believe what you're saying I believe" and I think this video did a phenomenal job showing why the dynamic came about. It came from a lot of suffering and looking back yeah I should have been better about recognizing that and being more empathetic and less concerned with defending my special way of doing Christianity and religion.

Jeannot

Absolutely loving these tangents. Halfway between a chill stream and a "mainline" contra video.

Jeannot

Unpopular opinion maybe, but I'm fine with them being Patreon-exclusive. The pressure that must come with main channel videos is hard to even imagine. If this helps your creative process, it's well worth the inconvenience. And unless I'm mistaken if they really want to, people can in fact share them with their friends: they're just unlisted public youtube videos. And as an incentive, it works: I used to be a patron, but I stopped all my patreon subscriptions a while ago, and the tangents motivated me enough to make a new account and re-subscribe.

Lise

Excellent tangent. I was 6 years old and part of a religious military family when 9/11 happened, so in the aftermath, I was just old enough to understand what was going on, but too young to understand why (and definitely oblivious to atheist movements). This really filled in the gaps for me.

Ryan Relativity

love this format for you! it’s strange to hear you talking about dawkins and the like as somewhat recent youtube figureheads since they’re literally in the school curriculum now. like, i’m taking a college level religious philosophy class & we’ve had multiple lectures covering dawkins’ thoughts on religion and we’re encouraged to write about him in our essays. anyway, these tangents r awesome & i’m excited for the next one :-)

xzopbop

Great video!

Chronic Inquiry

Thoroughly enjoyed this. I liked you giving the historical contexts for what pushed the New Atheists into the wrong direction. I like to believe that if they were actually thoroughly scientifically-minded in things like neuroscience and sociology and not just astrophysics vs creationism, they would be more aware of cognitive biases.

Viktoria K.

Your main channel videos may end up your public legacy at the end of life, so personally I think it's appropriate to be a slow-paced perfectionist there, especially since the viewers seem (to me) very satisfied with what you produce. This 'tangent' type is perfect keep-yourself-inspired(-and-fed) patrons-only content IMO. That said, if you evolved your channel's video style to something like this for any reason at all, I think you'll retain an audience.

highclass_lady

Purcell's The Fairy Queen will be on at the Longborough Opera Festival July 29th - Aug 3rd & tickets will be available starting Feb 27th! I forgot to mention this! But at risk of having no self-awareness, I recall you bringing this 1 up in several AMAs. I’ve never been to Longbrough yet, it's about 3-4 hours outside London by train (2 by car) but I saw The Magic Flute in London & it was superb! So if you ever fancy a summer trip to the UK the arts here are phenomenal

Sven

Have you considered using tangents as a rough draft / test for main video topics? Maybe them being patreon exclusive makes that possible, while having a tanget on YouTube and then later have a main video on the same topic might feel off. Fully depends on how "done" with a topic you feel, after having made a tangent on it.

Marlene Amélie

Hey, thanks for another interesting video! I think I currently hold a similar opinion as the one you mention in the end. I see religions as very problematic, but not being religious does not mean, at all, that you are a better person. You can be an atheist and still be one of the worst to walk the earth. And betting on logic and rationalism for humans, who are very much not acting based on reason and logic for the most part (in my experience), seems also a bit silly. Regarding Patron exclusivity: I am not subscribed because of any rewards but simply because your work is very dear to me and it feels nice to be able to use some of my money to support you in its creation. So I would be in favor of making those public as well. But as another commenter said: if it helps *you* to not have them on the public channel because it is less pressure, or for any other reason, then that is the most important factor.

Steph

Thanks for this Tangent Natalie! I relate a lot, I had some similar experiences growing up through my teens and early twenties as an atheist.

Rebecca C

I got to know and appreciate you for the very high quality long formats, and I would not recommend diluting that very unique and amazing public style by also posting AMAs, Tangents and other stuff out there on the public channels. I am mainly here to support those kinds of videos being made, even if they take a year to make. Everything else is up to you. And creative roadblocks happen, and I think it's great you are trying out new things with tangents and co.

Bryn Williams-Jones

I would love for someone to make some sort of flow chart from New Atheism to Andrew Tate. sort of like the LUCA flowchart.

Ren ☆

I’ll keep giving you money until I die regardless probably

Logan Rand

Idk if another person needs to weigh in on this, but I love the tangents and maybe this is kind of selfish, but I'd prefer it stay patreon only. It just feels special knowing that it is for a more limited audience. But that said, I am here to support your work and your artistic decisions. Your full scale productions are always worth the wait and so I feel good about supporting to enable you to make them, but having the AMAs or tangents periodically to listen to in the background of whatever I'm doing at home is really enjoyable and makes being a patron especially worthwhile in between the big videos. To me the tangents feel separate from your channel and might shift the direction of your channel if they were to become part of the main body of work, but if you actually do want them to become part of your canon so to speak that's totally fair for you to make that call.

yarow12

Could always release the tangents publically on their respective anniversary. 🤔 Beyond that, I'm in favor of what works for you specifically.

Alex

Rebecca Watson is still awesome and has a YouTube channel y'all should check out. She basically reviews science papers and science journalism and debunks bs with lots of research As the Tangents, you don't have to cave to releasing them pubically, get that non-youtube money girl. Think of it as a political stance against monopolist Alphabet!

chocolate poo

I like the idea of making the tangents public after some time

Eric Williams

I much prefer this to the AMA. Despite the informal nature, this was well put together and informative, and I wouldn’t even expect something of this caliber monthly unless you are inclined to put that much work in. I didn’t dislike the AMA, maybe it can be occasional? Anyway, interesting as always!

Deconstruction Interactive

Brilliant! This feels like reading a chapter of (North American / European) intellectual history. It was also very moving, both recalling the excitement I felt about the rise of reason and rationalism and the slow realization of its failures after elevatorgate. Uhh, humanity. Every time you think you have the solution, you don't :(

bolkins

Thank you very much for making this video!

Electro_Static

People like Tunderf00t are just looking for acceptable or easy targets for their nerd rage under the pretense of upholding facts and logic. I think he’s picked a better targets now (Evidently he jumped off the antifeminist bandwagon when his buddies started cheering murders) but I don’t think his approach has changed.

Rachel Bayston

About sharing, how about a free trial/cut-price access route for sharees? So say I share this video with my friend Dave (comes to my house 8 years ago, I'm watching an hour-long Hitchens video: 'O jesus, this guy?'), he can watch it free once and then sign up. Or I can buy him in for a month for $1 or $2 or whatever. Something I think you do really well is put yourself in the story without making yourself the story. I know you like Hunter Thompson too, but the harm he did... A framework of experience, including feelings, including cringe, seems like it's worth a lot more than the self-referential performance his work became or the facts and logic you talk about here. Pychologist Oliver James says for change to happen you need insight: understanding and emotion together. Just knowing isn't enough. Your work puts me in mind of that thought.

Drrizzy

Hi Natalie, This was a really excellent video. I love your idea of tangents and I look forward to seeing more of these. When you were talking about "The New Atheism" I had a number of questions. I grew up in an atheist family, but went the whole spiritual gamut from atheism to fundamentalism and back to the center. I cannot call myself an atheist now because of the new atheism, despite the fact that I agree with many of the ideas that modern day atheists espouse. I cannot call myself an atheist because when I grew up I was shocked by the "holier than thou" attitude of Christians and found that the new atheist replaced this with a "smarter than thou" attitude. What if we tried to have those tough conversations about religion and talked about thepathologies of the Judaic 3, but were not demeaning to theists, i.e., why not try the old atheism with awareness that a lot of the conversations will be tough? Also, when you mentioned that you were starting to like Freud it worried me. You are right that these people claim to be hyper-rational but are not. However, the modern view of the adaptive unconscious justifies your insight in a way that is free of the ugly baggage of Freud. You are a very thoughtful and intelligent person, and I love your content. Beware of Freud. The damage that man did to survivors of sexual abuse and families of those living with mental illnesses may never be undone. Check out "Strangers to Ourselves" by Timothy Wilson. It talks about exactly why we claim to be reasonable, but are ruled by our emotions. I think you would like it. Great video. Have a great year.

Nin Nin

This was really well done! I’m a new patron and I love the depth and quality you put into this video

Audrey Ford

Thank you for sharing your vulnerability and empathy <3

jim davies

Always stank to me that N.A. never had any interest in a humane roadmap out of religious dominance or default positive value. A very nasty vibe - almost like it preferred fundamentalist religions to stay big & scary as its "heel" & keep the lecture halls humming?

RJ Blue

I appreciate you mentioning the Freud thing, because it was a huge sticking point for me in an otherwise great video. If you do enough coke and write enough essays, you'll eventually trip and fall into a few good insights, but anything good he came up with has been massively improved on by other people and the bad is so outrageously bad that failing to mention it almost feels dishonest. I could be wrong, but as someone who's had this happen to them with journal articles a LOT, I think this might be one of those situations where the original text feels a lot more insightful before you read some responses by other people in the field.

Irina Culic

Being able to support your work already is reward enough for me. If it helps you lift pressure from yourself producing anything that you also enjoy and feel cover patron exclusivity, then keep Tangents behind wall. Otherwise, I would not mind at all other people enjoy these interventions too. I guess everyone is realistic about what it takes to make a great production and how messy every creative process is. Tangents as sketches or practice exercises or lunchtime conversations - one cannot do fine work without. Deadlines may be useful, but don't agonize about them. Really. Thanks for all your work and presence.

Jani Kajanoja

Thanks! It takes me back to memories of 19-year old me drunkenly preaching about atheism in college parties to anyone willing to listen. All of that indeed fuelled by libido and free-floating anxiety

Alan Meeker

Thanks for the thoughtful "Tangent" on New Atheism. It was more informative than I had expected, and I appreciated the historical review of the origins of this movement (??), especially as related to the internet, and relevant impacts. Being a bit long in the tooth, I came to these online discussions relatively late, ca 2015, so your detailed discussion of the "before times" was enlightening on a number of fronts. For example, while I was aware of Gamergate I was not aware of its antecedent, Elevatorgate, and this helped me better understand the level of vitriol I saw Richard Dawkins received on the "Skepchick" channel that I'd randomly bumped into a couple of years ago. A lot to digest here, so I plan on re-watching this Tangent once more. I found myself agreeing with much of what you had to say, but also disagreeing with you on several points. But, I am thankful for this thoughtful and well presented offering - so few things I see these days truly make me stop and think, so I look forward to engaging more deeply with the material as well as to see what other Tangents you have to offer in the future - keep up the good work!

Liz Jones

Loved this video!! The tangent videos are excellent so far!

Teed Rockwell

I especially liked the last 10 minutes or so, when you were making the connections between Enlightenment Rationalism and Toxic Masculinity. I am a retired philosophy prof, and we always had trouble keeping female philosophy majors precisely because of this problem. This is especially ironic because the arguments that the so-called new Atheists use usually aren't new. They are just recreations of the same arguments used by the Logical Positivists in the Twenties, that have since been demolished by Quine and Sellars. So a real understanding of the reasoning would have made them more agnostic, and more tolerant of other theological positions. I discuss this more thoroughly here. https://www.academia.edu/43960326/Science_Reason_and_Agnosticism

Teed Rockwell

I think you are far too easy on Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It's not just that her story of victimization contributes to Islamophobia. It's that she was a fraud who made up her story of victimization to create an Islamophobic niche for herself. This is documented thoroughly in this documentary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXGdoFCcxhE

Nicholas Coffin

I'm loving the Contrapoints tangent era. Great topic, too.

Christine Hottinger

said it before, but I'll say it again. Your tangents are as thorough and narrative as some creators' full-tilt efforts.

Zero

The switch to tangents was a stroke of genius. Really enjoying hearing your thoughts on a monthly topic of interest in a less formal format, and I'm so glad you're enjoying making them too. I learned a lot from this tangent about a subject I thought I already knew about; thank you. I don't think you should make them public; it's really the perfect patreon reward. Already looking forward to next month's, and hope you can enjoy the creation of main channel videos more through this process too.

Jenna Ryder

Loved this video. I really valued the fact that I was the only open atheist at school when I was a teenager and I met Richard Dawkins and have a signed copy of "The Magic of Reality." But I finally saw how cringe he and the other New Atheists are in my early 20s and then moved on and stopped paying attention to them. I was actually really surprised at how anti-social justice they are. I didn't see that back in the early 2010's. I think I'm going to toss my Richard Dawkins books in the trash now. Fuck that guy.

Daniel Loizos

Good morning! I just had a good idea, and hope Natalie sees this and like it! Natalie, I have seen some of your piano playing, and love it. It's super. Would you be up for a piano playing tangent? You could set up a new tier called "Music Appreciation", and I'd sign up.

Nirya Istari

"It's just the Right shape for the human mouth." I'd put that up there with "Why aren't we talking about the mouthfeel"

Miriam Sved

Thank you for another excellent tangent. I’m all about seeing new content from you whether it’s behind the subscriber paywall or not so I say whatever makes it easier (practically or psychologically) to keep creating, go with that.

Ellie Taylor

the word pastafarian just elicited a visceral, primal fear reaction from me and I scrambled to double check I had wiped all evidence of my pre-2015 existence from my sm

Isaac Mac

Great Video! Maybe some Tangents could be public but not all. Favorites could be posted to Youtube but others could stay here?

Mikaela Cortez

Thank you, Natalie, for the "low effort" video! Its historical sources are cool to learn about and it's helping me come to terms with my christian childhood. much love!

Aurelian

Wow, as an atheist who was never part of these communities or this movement, this whole video was a wild ride. I knew about Richard Dawkins and kind of thought he was a dick. But I've never heard about Elevatorgate or the crazy amount of misogyny and racism in the atheist movement. I had no idea there was this perception of atheism. For me, it was a purely individual decision (raised Christian in very rural American communities and you're totally right about being atheist almost being equivalent to being gay in rural places), and I'm now very glad that I wasn't exposed to this irrationality and negativity. And I know I'm late to this, but I'm also very much enjoying the new tangents! For me, it wouldn't bother me if you made these videos public after a month. One of my favorite things about your work is watching your video essays with people I'm close to and using them to spark good conversation. So I would actually love it if I could share these, and I would not feel cheated as a patron.

Allison Wolf

Thank you for putting this out, Natalie. I completely understand either way -- these videos are not exactly "on brand" for you, but I am glad to see them. You have a vested interest in protecting your brand and you're known for a very high production level. I am really glad to see you still creating and also understand if you want to make them public just to keep traffic humming on your main channel. And, um, yeah. I'm a lifelong atheist who's older, and I have mixed feelings on the New Atheists. I considered them mostly cringe from the start. TLDR follows. To give a little perspective age-wise and atmosphere-wise, I was a teen in the 80's when Ronald Reagan was in office. I grew up in a small town that had one big (very conservative) church and there was a small community of Jehovah's Witnesses there as well. I'm at least white, cis, and straight, but I was an open atheist. Didn't have too much choice about the open part as I was raised outside the one church in town. My uncle, who had moved to San Francisco when I was young, returned home to die of AIDS in the mid 80's and we were dealing with the Satanic Panic as well. My first exposure to organized atheism was in grad school (for math) in the 1990s -- I'd moved across the country to the Southeast US and was looking for community where maybe I didn't have to hide my lack of belief quite so much. Dennett was definitely making the circuit at that point, I think maybe Dawkins was as well. Anyway, the idea of superior intellect and rationalism as identity was definitely there at that point. It was also already being used to perpetuate Western white cis male power structures. Back then these people would at least claim most of the time to be feminist, anti-racist, and LGBT-friendly based on the lack of reliability on scripture and oppressive power structures within religious circles. However, in the next breath there was usually the quite faulty reasoning that because higher percentages of non-white people and women (usually not much talk about sexual orientation in that part, but...I wouldn't have been at all surprised to see it included) stayed in religion, those categories of people were inherently less rational and more emotion-driven. Therefore we were to be less trusted with power. Moreover, any complaints we might have about treatment within the movement were considered emotion-driven and therefore unworthy of being addressed. Needless to say, my involvement with these people didn't last too long. I went to a couple of meetings before I found a friendlier subgroup that wanted to split off, and it was mostly going okay until the person who was the leader started having family troubles and it split into the same squabbles. I am grateful to the New Atheist movement for encouraging people to become more open about their lack of belief. Lack of visibility was a HUGE problem, with lots of people claiming to have never met an atheist before. I'm glad to see that and some other good coming out of it, but the more toxic elements made me profoundly uncomfortable and...a style of atheism was being promoted that I certainly didn't want to be identified with. And no, I don't want to base everything on rationality. I don't think it can be done. However, I also don't find religions depending on personal deity to be emotionally appealing. I wasn't seeing a lot about that, just the "you're oppressed over there so of COURSE we're better, why don't you want to hang out with us?" angle. I do find the focus some atheists have on the numinous attractive because I'm from a part of the world where natural wonders abound and always made me feel small. I feel a little like it helps me keep things in perspective, as I'm part of the natural world rather than something created to be in dominion over it.

JoyOfResistance

This is very well done, thank you so much! Also, as a Dutch person, this took me straight back to what a crazy, confusing time the Ayaan/Theo van Gogh-period was in Dutch politics, with two political murders in very short time ("Van Gogh" by the way is best pronounced if you imitate the static noise of a radio or that thing American people use to kill garbage in their sinks: ggggggg).

Allison Wolf

Thanks for this. I stuck with my mathematics, but I have emotional scars, and I understand that math is at best philosophy-adjacent. :) And yes, it was galling to see so much bad argumentation, with people making far too many unexamined and unwarranted assumptions. I'm a naturalist/materialist and grew up one, but I've always more taken it as a working assumption rather than as something that was entirely reasonably defensible. And I don't know how possible it is to give me evidence that would get me off of that, either, becauseI'm a fallible human and would probably try to rationalize my way into proclaiming the other realm to be part of this one. A reasonable person could definitely go the other way with it. This doesn't mean every religious view should automatically be tolerated or that we shouldn't apply reason to claims people make.

Abigail Keyes

Loved this one. Part of me wanted to align myself with the New Atheists in the early 2000s… but I could never ever get past the blatant Islamophobia. I’ve been involved with Arab and Muslim communities since college; it’s my academic focus since the late 90s and continues to inform my work as a performer and educator. That said, I also interned at the Pentagon the summer of 9/11, my brother almost flew on UA 93, and I worked as a political analyst for the US gov’t on the Iraq account from 2002 to 2006. I’ve seen many sides of this debate/debacle first hand. So, to me NA always felt so icky, so bigoted, so racialized. These men talked about Muslims as though they were all backwards people who wanted to take down the “West” (a term I despise) and install shari’a law and kill all the “infidels”… Without a doubt, incredibly Neo-Orientalist. And I just… I couldn’t get down with that… even though I never believed in God. For a moment, though, I thought maybe I’d find an ideological home with the NAs, but the further I dug, the worse they appeared. Then… Elevatorgate. That wasn’t a place for me, a queer woman sympathetic to Muslim/Arab culture. I’d have long, drawn out talks with my partner who had aligned himself much more with the NAs than I ever did, arguing that if those guys were going to talk about Islam in the way they did, then they needed to be talking about Christian fundamentalism in the “West” in the same breath… which they hardly ever did. Their vitriol seemed to me to be so often directed towards “those brown extremists who want to kill us and subjugate our women” that it made me wonder if they had ever had any Arab or Muslim friends… or read anything about the Middle East that wasn’t written by Bernard Lewis. Thankfully, I’ve since managed to convince my partner that, yes, they’ve been bigoted all along, despite having some salvageable and sometimes sound ideas. Babies, bathwater, all that. The further he dug, the further he saw that there wasn’t a place for him, either, not if they were going to continue down the road of being a rich white edgelord manboy club. All this to say… thank you for organizing into words the feelings I’ve had about this movement for years.

Neal L

Maybe release an abridged version or trailer of each tangent on YouTube instead of the full video?

cheesecurl

I love these videos. I love the low(er) effort content. High effort content stresses me out

Luna Otimas

Imagine going from 1-2 hour videos to being a shorts queen XDD no sarcasm, really imagine it, it sounds great to me lmfao

Erin O.

Graphic design is my passion These tangents are great and have a lot more Contrapointy goodness than the AMAs. They were ok, not saying they weren't, but its good to see/hear your fantastic style of deconstruction and explanation again.

Dahling Sweetiepoo

What I've always loved about your content is that while there may be occasional moments of sass and snark, the main thrust is not simply slam dunking over and over, even on pretty contemptuous targets. The last 15 minutes of this video is definitely something that I really appreciate in this light.

James Lopez

I think rationality and inductive reasoning are the best things we have, and it's only through their application that we're able to acknowledge that they also kind of suck too. The benefit of it mainly comes from a willingness and ability to apply it to oneself and to use it to protect oneself from deceptive ideas. You can't really use it to "destroy" things. It's pretty shitty at persuasion too. You normally just get buried in endlessly recursive definitions of words and arguing over who has the burden of proof. Anyway, I liked the tangent. It would make a good and interesting outline for a main channel video I think. Another topic to add is that Sam Harris is basically a witch doctor now, trying to sell people on meditation and telling them if they disagree with him they didn't meditate as well as he does.

pooners

Loving the tangents! Quick feedback though, is there a way to improve the audio so that it sounds less staticky/muffled? Thank you!

Helen Collins

I totally understand where you’re coming from with tricking yourself out of perfectionism. I love the new tangents and I think others would love to see them on the channel, but I understand not wanting to mess with a good thing if it’s getting the creative juices flowing. Maybe producing tangents will help contribute to longer videos in the future? Regardless, I’m just happy to have more videos full of your beautiful thoughts ♥️

Emelia Haskey

I really enjoyed this video, which is funny because I am a christian - but having been an atheist most of my life I remember being very cringe about it all through high school so this brought up a few memories

Jordan Magill

Not disagreeing with anything here, just a thought based on my own experience as a queer person of faith. I absolutely agree that, as Americans who grew up in Christianity we’d be entitled to a different degree of sacrilege or irreverence toward Christianity than we would to Islam. And I wouldn’t want to tone police those who’ve been traumatized by Christianity (myself included). I wonder, though, whether overtly anti-religious (particularly anti-Christian) sentiment on the left is a bit politically counterproductive, when effective coalition-building would require the involvement of some people of faith. If you want to win elections and move the needle on policy in America, anyway. Not saying the left is as blatantly anti-God as conservatives claim (it isn’t), but when certain expressions of leftism take a similarly combative posture toward religion as the New Atheists did, there are otherwise marginalized people of faith (Black Protestants, Latinx Catholics, LGBTQ+ Christians, American Muslims) who can fall into the gaps of the discourse.

SpaceLice

Man, the part where you talk about the 9/11 aftermath just reminded me of something. When I was around 10 or 11, a Danish newspaper published some rather offensive drawings of the prophet Muhammad which made a lot of muslim people feel really hurt and angry. Here in Denmark it was known as "The Muhammad Crisis". I remember seeing lots of videos on TV of muslims burning the Danish flag and shit, and it was a huge subject in elementary school. Our Christianity teacher (yes, it's called Christianity class not Religion class in Denmark - yikes) presented the drawings as this shining example of our freedom of speech and something we should be super proud of - which was by far the general consensus amongst Danes. But I remember one girl in class pushing back, saying she felt the drawings were bad and unnecessary, and that it was wrong to have published these drawings since the only point was to offend and hurt people. My teacher pushed back so aggressively at this point that she made my 10-year-old classmate cry in class. The message to me then was clear: there was only one right way to feel about drawing Muhammad, and it was to think of it as unambiguously good and rightious, and arguing against it was anti-democratic and anti free speech.

SpaceLice

Oh shit I just got to the part where you talk about Muhammad drawings. Note to self: watch the whole video before commenting next time

Liv

I really appreciate your view on humanism here Natalie. Many people have a pessimistic and fearful perspective of this way of thinking. It's nice to hear a positive and sane take on the philosophy.

Lady Bunnerkins

I just subscribed to my first ever Patreon account explicitly to watch these Tangents, so take that for whatever it is worth on your conundrum. Edit: Did y'all know Thomas Nagel is still alive?! Also, does anyone remember the name of that right-wing debater that was making the rounds 10+ years ago? I am sure I remember a debate between Daniel Dennett and this guy where Dennett doesn't come off very well entirely because of stylistic presentation. Undergrad philosophy nostalgia hitting hard.

phastinemoon

Maybe, once you've got enough Tangents posted, have your Patrons vote on a few of them to make public? That way, still leaves a few that are Patreon exclusives, and gives the YouTube community an additional incentive to sign up, because then they can take part in voting on the next round?

Rachel

Please don't let people bully you into making these public, putting things behind a paywall is literally the point of Patreon, and I am 10000% positive that it's easier to make content for an audience of people who pay to support you rather than the entire public. Someone can literally get access to all of your tangents for $2 if they care, that is NOT prohibitively expensive. I am extremely glad this new format is helping you and I think it is a great patreon perk.

Süni

Wow, this was an amazing tangent! Thank you!

Sophia

literally subscribed to ur patreon bc i wanted to watch this and it didn’t disappoint!! NEED to hear more about ur thoughts on freud.i’ve noticed that you’re getting more and more into psychological science as well as psychoanalysis and I would love to see u make content dipping into it

Adam Iaizzi

I love the tangents! Keep them coming!

LadyTato

Ms Points! As a gamer and a member of the Trans community do you think you’ll do a tangent on Hogwarts Legacy?

Rowena Rambeau

You don't owe me content, but I'm happy I get to hear your thoughts more often lately. Thank you- it gave me a lot to think about and I appreciate your honesty on the subject ❤️

Rowena Rambeau

My own development as a leftistTM all began with me hinging upon science to fight the grifters. I am reminded of carl sagan quote (lol) "Science is ... a way of skeptically interrogating the universe with a fine understanding of human fallibility. If we are not able to ask skeptical questions, to interrogate those who tell us that something is true, to be skeptical of those in authority, then we’re up for grabs for the next charlatan, political or religious, who comes ambling along." There was a time, maybe like yourself, where this was my only compass for finding truth in a media hellhole. I was even *more* cringe and was attracted to Any Rand's rationality when I was 17, so I think you're doing fine hahaha. Now, I still think it's very important our causes have evidence and skepticism on our side, but I agree, rationality is just a tool and more often than not an aesthetic of masculine objectivity weaponized for fascist movements. Any asshole can have a think-tank, a "study," or a "rational" argument, basically. :/ Still, I think we have all the science we need to prove that trans people deserve medical care, or social programs ameliorate a large part of poverty and homelessness and not more cops, etc. I don't think having the science matters as much any more, no; having power over our lives is what is missing not the perfect dunk, the perfect piece of evidence, peer reviewed longitudinal study, or "gotcha." It's education and organizing. Thank you for contributing to that, Ms. Points :)

Ayanna

I recently converted to Reform Judaism (ex-Catholic). I have a Desi Muslim friend. We were both agnostic/atheist around the same time in our lives, and have now gotten back into religion, but we still hold onto certain principals that atheism taught us. We were talking recently about atheism in the 2010s, and she said that to her, a lot of people who are from the New Atheism branch behave a lot like Christians, and treat this slim definition of "reason" as a replacement for Christianity, and yeah, it made sense.

PurpleTurtle

Thank you for making this. My own experience is all too familiar here. Thank you for bringing your great insight and erudition to this subject and for giving my experience a voice that I could never give myself.

Dab Brill

I loved this video very much and consider the "crunch", that is the actual factual content, completely on par with your main channel videos. Obviously the production value is much less, but the information and thought is so strong it scarcely matters. I know you are wrestling with whether to make these public or not, and you obviously have to do whatever is right for you, your revenue stream, and you mental health, but I absolutely think these tangents are high-quality enough for public release. It reminds me a bit of how the podcast Hardcore History grew longer and more elaborate over time, with episodes growing to be ~5 hours long and the release schedule less and less frequent until reach only 1-2 episodes per year. The host, Dan Carlin, started a second podcast he called Hardcore History: Addendum to host shorter-form, less intensively researched content so he could release more frequently. This tangent is extremely informative, well thought out, articulate, and contains really important information and import context for the internet as it is today. I can't praise this video enough. The only difference in my eyes between this and more recent main-channel Contrapoints content is stylistic. It, as you've said yourself, resembles early channel work more than the costume-heavy later work. I would still pay $2 a month to get this content early if you posted it publicly.

Seratonin

You and your content got me through the hardest point in my life. In June, I was kicked out of and disconnected from my family, and at what should've been one of the lowest points of my life, was a blossoming point of stability and growth for myself. Looking back, it's really odd to say that. Eventually I got my happy ending where my parents asked for my forgiveness, but I credit you and your content informing me so heavily on queer and trans issues I didn't know about. Like 90% of my experiences in my transition had a video of yours to thoroughly explain issues that I didn't even know how or where to ask about. Every era of my transition thus far has had a video of yours comfort and ease the toil of not knowing so many parts of myself or the world around me, and your content helped me understand it, even in a fun, giggly, entertaining, and authentic and tragic way . At every turn, your content helped me gear myself to positive change, and even have an incredible transition while just 8 months on hrt. Keep up the cunty slay, and thank you for being such a positive force in my life when I needed it most. Love you bestie

Lianne Lairmore

Definitely is familiar, I'm a few years younger and my friends in college started the atheism club at my college. I went to the Rally for Reason and read a Dawkins book. I was never quite as "into" it as my friend and was more interested in feminist ideas and shared them with one of those founders (who was a woman). She later told me that feminism was what she was looking for and thought she found in the atheist movement but in the end wasn't there. A push for equality and freedom from the bigoted ideals that surrounds most religions. I really enjoyed a structured rehashing of the history and context that it all happened.

ludmila naves

tangent is a great format! I hope you'll keep doing it.

Pauline Barry-Venture

"Why are her panties in a bunch", he very rationally screeches at the camera.

RSS

A muslima or muslimah is just a female muslim. Dawkins is just doing the classic "you think things aare bad here? but females are treated worse in the muslim world, so you should be grateful!"

RSS

I think your "mid" videos are still better than a lot of other work out there. I would be happy for you to make these public. But I'm happy to just give you money to keep doing what you're doing. I think patrons getting to vote is worth something.

Sophia

Natalie, I saw your tweet about perfectionism creeping in so I’m using this moment to say: Do NOT make your tangents any “better” than they have been!!! I love this Tangent so much; it’s maybe actually my favorite thing you’ve made, which is saying a lot . And if you had said less than you did in this video, spoken in more of a “rough draft,” or not edited it as carefully, it still would have made the same kind of impact. In fact, I think the somewhat casual feel of this video contrasted with your thoughtful perspective is what makes it feel as impactful as it does. As much as you are able, fight the “ambition” so you can keep making amazing things ❤️

Kat

I'm really enjoying the tangents, for all that it might take me a month to get around to watching them. For what it's worth, I'm a patron to support you making videos at all, not for the exclusivity of those videos. I think your voice is important, and I'd love for more people to have a chance of hearing it more often.

bone daddy

I'd personally keep the patreon subscription even if you did make these public. I'm happy to support your content because it's AMAZING content, and I feel like it needs to be continued. I think posting these here, and then a month later publicly is a fine idea.

mistine

this needs to be a video on your main channel!! I resubscribed as a patron to get access to these videos and want to echo the sentiment of other comments that I'd continue to support this content even if they ultimately became main video channels. Maybe the tangents are a way to work out ideas as drafts, like how comedians work out their content informally in smaller venues with fewer eyes and less pressure.

Jake Vaughn

Just catching up on this, and it’s fabulous! I recently left Jehovah’s Witnesses, and as a result I’m being shunned by my family. I’ve had to rebuild my entire life from scratch. Being a leftist atheist has been tricky, because while there’s actually a lot of really good progressive atheist content out there now, I feel like the perception within leftist spaces is that atheism itself is…bad? Cringe? All because of the likes of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens (and, yes, New Atheist YouTube). So there’s this weird divide where there’s trans atheist content creators who sort of feel separate from “breadtube” for no logical reason as far as I can tell. I’d definitely love to see this on the main channel at some point, because leftist atheists still struggle with the baggage of the new atheist crowd. (New New Atheists?)

Valpurga

+1, I don't do patreon for the extra content, I do it to support the creator.

Greg Cameron

I wish that you would release this publicly! There are 20 year olds out there now who need to hear this.

Gabriella

This was such an interesting and thorough recent history analysis!

Pinkgin

This was fascinating, I love hearing you talk about that specific period of time in general.

Marvin A.

as an ex patreon who has recently become a new one again for this content, I don't think I fully agree. Even only to explain it from a marketing point of view, I simply didn't know tangents would be this well-put, that I'd enjoy the content so much. I knew they existed and was eventually curious enough about it to become a patreon again, but this could have easily never been the case, but if I knew that she was producing this series, and I could get it a month earlier than a month later (like others, this is the strategy I'm imagining would be ideal for publishing these to the general audience) I'd pay that two dollars immediately.

Marvin A.

but more than that, I think having this content out there for those who don't become patreons for whatever reason is important. I believe these videos are valuable not only because I immensely enjoy them but also because they are a great public service. this in itself is extremely valuable. but if contra thinks that the videos are good or producable only because they're meant to be for a small public and she'd be pressured into perfectionism which would ruin the whole think, then I'd understand that.

Patrick Cummings

Embarrassingly I was late to the party with New Atheism and discovered it around 2014 (about the same time I was finding my way out of right wing politics). I had suffered from the gross disinterest in anything that challenged my old thinking, which is very common on the right. I was also fairly new in sobriety (which interestingly helped deconstruct my right wing nonsense). I did gravitate to what I was hearing and reading and it helped me segue into more and more philosophical stuff; and it was comforting to know I was not alone in these thoughts I had had since childhood but didn't dare entertain for fear of hell. Thankfully as a bisexual man, I gravitated more toward the faction who's diagram overlaps LGBTQ+/Atheism and avoided becoming a Fedora Tipper. I loved the tangent - it was a wonderfully validating post-mortem of something that used to take up a lot of my mental real estate. I never really thought about all the different branches that grew out of this 2006-07 moment...I feel like drawing it on a piece of paper now.

Teodor Dysthe Lyngstad

Fantastic tangent miss Points! I had a thought about the cologne-like role of reason in the lives of big-antlered guys: Maybe it would be helpful for us to differentiate between reason as an identity marker and reason as a tool for reasoning. As you went over already, the masculine, reasonable identity often leads to ignorance of one’s biases partly due to a lack of awareness and understanding of one’s emotionality. Although this failed attempt at becoming the ultimate cyborg is clearly not something anyone should strive for, I don’t think that this necessarily means that reason belongs in the trash. It might just be a good idea to not think of oneself as inherently reasonable as this likely has the opposite effect. I would rather say that it’s very reasonable to be aware of one’s potential for being unreasonable. So by trashing reason and admitting your «emotional irrationality», you paradoxically become better at reasoning—which is kind of what you reasoned, right? To be perfectly reasonable is impossible most of the time (I think…), but I guess you could be more or less reasonable, and being aware of the emotionality of oneself and others, even acknowledging that emotionality is integral and often inseparable from reasoning, allows you to slide up the scale a notch. At least a bit above the antler boys. Does that make sense?

NBBBMO

New Atheism, screaming feckin sexism. Hitchens was interesting. Don't care if women were fans. OMFG, the fans. Ugh. They can kiss my arse. Men tossing off to a drier biscuit than usual.

XavierTeatime

I found it really, really fascinating how, at some point over the last decade, the "logic and reason! facts don't care about your feelings!" brigade, which I always associated with New Atheism/the skeptical movement, seemed to take on Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro as their icons, two men who are very deeply, devoutly religious and do not try to hide it at all. Makes it clear that skepticism is not what was unifying this group.

TPK Games

I’m going to be honest, I never even realized the connection between Ben Shapiro and Atheism. I’m older (41), so some online movements and progressions are sometimes a little outside of my daily information sphere. But, I feel like I fit the demographic, am proudly openly atheist, and I understand the idea that it’s maybe a privileged way to be part of some marginalized community in the US. But it’s crazy to me that atheism and the alt right have merged in this fucked up way. Every aspect of my viewpoint looks at Ben Shapiro as someone feeding the religious right movement. It’s sad that this is how atheism is viewed right now because I think there is some validity in the argument that religion generally does more harm than good and that I wish there was more non religious community organization to compete with or replace after school programs, child recreation, large charity work, etc.. where religion has pretty much built a monopoly. Anyway. I found this very informative and realize I have to be more careful as a 40 year old straight white man that wants to convey the opposite viewpoints from NEW atheism, even as an atheist.

Rosa Pavlak

I still thank the New Atheist movement because it helped me become a socialist (I went through a brief tankie phase in High School because I admired the USSR for its atheism, then I became a democratic socialist after I grew out of it), and then subsequently that helped me come out and accept myself as trans without as much self-baggage. I just wish we lived in a timeline where its biggest talking heads didn't all become "anti-woke" reactionaries.

Andrew M

In retrospect it's hard to believe that "elevatorgate" was such a momentous event, but I remember living through it, and I remember that it had a huge impact on me personally to speak more with my friends who were women to understand their perspective and become a feminist.

roxyamused

The 2000's were a bit trilby/fedora heavy in general. I remember when trilbies were everywhere. I had a couple and I cringe at my past because I was 19 and my self image and actual image were not aligned in many ways. Regardless, I realised I was missing out on your patreon when I saw your tweet about this video. As a Buddhist I have some frustrations with what I experience with many atheists and a lot of leftists too online. Often incurious, very ignorant, confidently incorrect while combative in all the wrong ways when I'm just making an informational comment about who Guanyin/Kannon/Avalokita is with the picture of the large statue of Sendaikannon on reddit. I have no problem with atheism, I kind of am one at least with creationist ideology. Usually what they wish to challenge me about is the six realms of samsara. I don't care, it's immaterial to my faith. I question the six realms myself, the Buddha taught to not accept even what he teaches experiential value rather than face value. I do not push my religion on anyone, so my gripe comes from these repeated experiences of these classic reddit atheists, and it gives me a bad taste in my mouth. Buddhism inspired Classical Greek philosophy. Buddhism and Greece have a storied history dating back to Alexander and Ashoka. Don't come at me yelling and screaming at me about how stupid Buddhism is when I'm informing about religious iconography in the very place that would interest people. So if you don't like evangelism, which I also despise, why be an outspoken evangelist? Just because you're areligious doesn't mean you're not being antagonistically evangelistic. I could actually go hard on leftists who are areligious, sometimes I wonder if they're fucking psyops ffs. Like Communists who don't actually know about the violence in the cultural revolution, USSR; if you know all this leftist politically theory, why couldn't you read some history too? Leftists don't often understand how extraordinarily important religiosity and religious communities are to the working classes, it just ends up being elitist. Isn't that what we're trying to change? No? This video gives me a great historical framing for the obnoxious atheists that I've come across. If someone is an ally for trans liberation, I don't gaf what your faith is or that one lacks it. I push back at some atheistic/areligious comments as they're often kinda classist, chauvinistic, and racist . It's as cringe as a fucking trilby.

Kenzington P

Would love to hear more about "Freudian Atheism" and the avoidance of anxiety within New Atheism, as I find a lot of connection with that idea. I personally find a lot of meaning in my atheism as a source of existential freedom, especially in light of the fact that I'm exmormon. I find it very interesting (annoying, really) that New Atheism often holds the same zealotry and fixated worldview as religion, still functioning as a form of terror management and defense mechanism against fundamental uncertainties, all the while denying that it's doing that very thing. Like, sorry bud... we are all managing terror here. Also, aside from how actually harmful it is, it's very dull - congratulations boys, you found a way to maintain white, cisgender, heteronormativity as the dominant power by being "the smartest boy" in the room. Bleh. Boring. You aren't that revolutionary after all. It's just a bunch of the same men who felt superior when they were religious and haven't bothered to actually deconstruct any of the horridly harmful beliefs that are upheld by their religion of origin. Deconstruct that supremacy of thought, first.

Ulysses

Great vid!! We’re about the same age and I followed a similar path, minus the YouTube part. I grew up in small town WI with Catholic parents who voted for Bush twice… I was a closeted homo, but atheism was sort of my first “coming out” and leaving a copy of The God Delusion lying around as a senior in high school was liberating (and I’m sure elicited eye rolls from my poor parents). I didn’t know about any of the subsequent controversies until now. Curious the degree to which you think the movement made it acceptable to identify as an atheist or nonbeliever in polite company. That seems like meaningful progress to me. Far fewer folks attending (and funding) churches out of some social obligation.

Tom Homunculus

I used to have a job working around a lot of christians who would frequently bring up Jesus and try to find out which church I attend. I was so scared to lose my job i would just lie and say I preferred having a personal relationship with Jesus. Later, having a job with more security I have felt as though I should be more vocal about not believing in any god, because a lot of churches teach that everyone believes/knows there's a God and people just "turn their back on him to sin".

Julian Taylor

I think the best thing to do is just slowly ease religion out of the public sphere. We have to respect people as people but I don’t think there’s much credence in respecting religious beliefs as much as we do. But that doesn’t mean disrespecting the people who believe it. The problem though is that many people associate themselves so strongly with their religion that they can’t really dissociate the two when being criticized. That’s ultimately what concerns me about religion is the encouragement to live more blissfully ignorant and then make it a part of your life to the point where you can’t really leave, which then makes it a cult lol. We also really need to draw a line between religion and ethnicity, because imma be honest I can’t tell sometimes when someone is complaining about being oppressed for being religiously Jewish or ethnically Jewish. Cuz like, you could always just not be Jewish. But then again, can you??? *vsauce music*

A Nickerson

Thank you for ALL your content (and the very affordable patreon subscription... i promise you once i am back in the work force i'll move up the tiers of patreon subscription!) I appreciate you and your work massively!

Alec

One of the most out-of-touch videos I have seen from you.

Jax Monty

I can’t tell you how often I cringed during this video. It was a tough watch because it was so relatable. I was also part of that community!!! I followed the “horsemen” and bought their books. Resisting the urge to run to my ancient FB page now and scrub it clean of my associations with it all… but as you mentioned in your video, some of us were able to see the gross problems within the community and went elsewhere. I ended up going to leftube and think of myself as a humanist now.

Adam Finch

"Out of touch" or you personally disagree with her stance here?

Jesse Pinkwoman

She was among the first YouTube atheists. She was was there to see it all firsthand.

Jesse Pinkwoman

Honestly the new atheism community on YouTube was far more diverse than breadtube.

chris

I'd love to hear your thoughts on agnosticism (in regard to Albert Camus, The Myth of Sisyphus). Regarding religion, I think it is wise to support pastors who studied theology, as that generally means that at least once in their career, they were asked to view the bible from a historical and critical perspective, learned about how The Book was created, the enormous historical time span the old testament encompasses, the variety of text formats it entails, etc. - and methodologically: the basics of hermeneutics.

VMH

This brought up a geyser of thoughts and memories and feelings; not necessarily coherent but I want to share some of them. I converted to evangelical Christianity when I was 13 (painful to me still because I feel I have no good excuse - I wasn't brought up in a religious household or community, I wasn't particularly traumatised by my life so far - though the kinder part of me says I did have some trauma, particularly around parental separation, parental mental health, and moving countries multiple times, and for one reason or another I'd long carried a feeling that I was bad and guilty; I possibly also wanted to fit in at the evangelical school I'd just started at). Lost my faith at 19 after moving back to the UK for university. This was late 2007; The God Delusion had come out somewhat recently (Wikipedia says 2006), so that was in the public consciousness, and I was probably just the right age and frame of mind for it, and to be attracted to the whole New Atheism thing in general. (Did always find Dawkins just a little bit arrogant though. I don't know how TGD would hold up if I read it now). On a positive note, The God Delusion and all the atheist blogs I read really did help me process my loss of faith. I was feeling very lost and a lot of it was genuinely helpful. On the other hand, the problematic shit, as you point out...the rhetoric around Islam and Muslims, and the undercurrent of self-righteousness in some of the people I read or watched (if not open toxicity - I did not need reminding about The 'Amazing' Atheist 😅😭)- and the longer I lurked in the atheist blogosphere (and it was almost always lurking, except for the time I submitted my deconversion story to the Ebonmuse - later Daylight Atheism - blog), the more disheartened I became about the schisms forming, particularly after Elevatorgate. I think I mostly agreed with the Atheism+ crowd, but overall I think I found it very demoralising witnessing former friends and allies fighting amongst each other, and hurtful that such a vocal part of the atheism movement actually didn't really care about women. So I stepped away. I have very conflicting feelings about Islam. In part due to my dislike of religion in general, but I also lived in or visited a number of countries growing up, where Islam was the majority religion, and was very aware of things that could not be said or done, of rights that I took for granted in the UK (though how much of that was political rather than religious - and where does one end and the other begin?) Also, I have extremely limited knowledge of the Quran itself, so it's hard to say if it's any more misogynist etc. than the Bible, and I was really into *that* book for a while 😒Ultimately I never participated in 'Draw Mohammed' stuff because I kept thinking of people I knew who were Muslim and thinking, I could never actually confront them with this, it would be extremely rude (at the very least!) - I guess my deep-seated politeness / meekness / dislike of confrontation saved me there. I just listen to 'Mohammed My Friend' by Tori Amos instead - which isn't an anti-Islam song, as far as I have ever understood, but a song about the erasure of the feminine from religion, particularly Christianity - which I understand to be one of the themes running through the 'Boys For Pele' album in general. (Anyone else get *really* into Tori Amos after losing their faith?) (A couple of side notes: I seem to remember one of the things that really put me off Thunderfoot was his doxxing of a trans blogger - sadly I can't remember her name. A number of cursory Google searches don't bring up anything about the incident - am I misremembering? I was also extremely sad that, the last time I decided to poke my head back into the atheist blogosphere a few months ago, I find that Jey McCreight is transgender - that's not the bad part - but another atheist blogger I occasionally enjoyed, Ophelia Benson, really takes issue with this and has gone off the TERF deep end.) On a final note, I still love Carl Sagan and the numinous.

Kamel Al-Sharif

This one really hit home (no pun intended) because I grew up queer in Amman within the Palestinian diaspora, seeing the bombing of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gaza on television. Whenever I would try to deconstruct notions of god and Islam I now see that, from the standpoint of my parents, I was "indoctrinated" by new atheism. All my mom would talk about is Richard Dawkins; having a copy of The God Delusion was possibly as egregious as gay porn. I see now that, for a generation that witnessed Crusade-like discourse from Christian Europeans and U.S.-Americans on one side, and white male new atheists, the idea that an Arab child is critisizing one of the few things that brought them comfort (despite its use to persecute them) would be a betrayal (at best). This was a world which not only followed the "new crusade" against the "axis of evil" it was also, internally, a world where the Muslim Brotherhood and their chapters experienced massive crackdowns across the region. It was also a world where oil money turbocharged salafist thought, and I am tempted to think that the alternative to these most popularized discourses within Islam being new atheism is what gets us to something like ISIS. Yes, there were material causes for their rise including the power vacuum et al., but ideologically, when new atheism failed to highlight Muslim apostates and narratives from within the community that critique our own religion, it elicits a kneejerk reaction from people who have lost everything from an Islamophobic alliance of atheists and Evangelicals. Ever time I argue with my mom about religion, I see now that her arguments were those of a person arguing against (what became of) a new atheist. When I argue on the other hand, I'm assuming that she understands notions of plurality and social justice which do not translate from my generation to hers. I'm trying to grapple with how best to approach this topic and I'm tempted to embed social justice and plurality in Islam to alleviate her sense of fear, betrayal, or being triggered, but I'm also too gay and tired to care anymore....

Kamel Al-Sharif

The most difficult thing is trying to draw the line between faulting imperialism/neo-colonialism for all the fucked up things that it did to us, and between our own agency to confront our damage and build a better world.

Alex Moody

Definitely put them behind a paywall!! If someone wants to share your ideas, let them get smart and figure out how to explain them on their own lol

sam!

fellow queer jordanian here. solidarity habibi

Alex Moody

PS: Dostoevsky ^_^ He spent his best years of writing railing against the supposed rationality of human kind. He's regarded as a supremely Christian man... but he was really more of an atheist who desperately wanted to believe in a savior or grace </3 Do you have any content related to him?? Notes from Underground reads like an angry very online man's blog, and his femme fatales are superb...

Jeffafa

11:42 The second pronunciation of the "gh" bit is actually how you pronounce the first G in "Gogh" too.

Saoirse

Yeah new atheism was actually the first community I actively joined

Saoirse

Indeed being an atheist was essentially just as ostracized in my heavily evangelical Christian community as being gay

Saoirse

I really like these tangents. It's cool to get a sense of your thought process

Saoirse

It's super interesting to hear your analysis on rationality, in the enlightenment sense, as a performance of masculinity. I remember you said in a previous video something to the effect of "all this explaining is giving me gender dysphoria." I'd be really interested in seeing a video exploring this interaction of rationalism and gender.

Austin Luther

There were positive aspects of the New Atheism movement, especially in the early days. I was at the Reason Rally in 2012 and remember my father saying it was the first time he had been in a crowd of people and felt comfortable. But the hateful aspect was definitely there. I even had my own "angry atheist" phase where I didn't just celebrate atheism, I attacked any and all modern theism. A lot of that anger came from learning that both of my parents came from abusive households that used religion as an excuse for that abuse. I viewed (as a late teen, early 30s) religion as outdated and while it was a part of history, it no longer served a function and only caused harm. I did grow out of that thinking and have moved to a more, "You do you, just don't cause harm" mode of thinking. Luckily, I wasn't a very online person so I didn't fall into the other dark rabbit holes of New Atheism that led to anti-feminism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. And maybe being a gay trans man also helps with that. But yeah, I definitely have some cringe years of anti-theism.

Narcissa Deville

I remember being a teen/early 20 year old during this time and like seeing this from an outsider perspective of never being an Atheist (more of a Pagan myself) and just being like wow this is wild. Not even just the Atheist part but how angry so many men were and the whole Gamergate thing and anti-SJW all kind of coming to a head together it was scary.

Dr Vixen

Hi! New Patreon here trolling through your old videos, Natalie! I saw Christopher Hitchens open for the first Festival of Dangerous Ideas (FODI) at the Sydney Opera House and met Richard Dawkins on two subsequent occasions also at FODI. I was in love with their intelligence and eloquence! Both Christopher and Richard spoke to me as an Atheist who rejected her Catholic upbringing. I also met Ayan Hirsi Ali and I bought all of her books and those from all of the Horsemen. I was obsessed with Atheism for some time. They all gave me the logical arguments and words I needed to argue for reason and why I wasn't going to somebody's imaginary hell. Since that time, I felt that Sam Harris was losing the plot and of course, Hitchens died and it seemed the passion died with him. Or maybe I just assimilated all of the ideas and there was nothing left to learn. I really appreciate your thoughts @Natalie, about the white man's movement and how they mistreated those who were already marginalized and I agree with you that atheism should not be about trying to hurt believers, but rather enlighten them (if you excuse the pun). Also interesting was your "antler clashing" comment and I do agree. In the end, they weren't speaking to me, but to their Freudian libido and anxiety. I am still very, very, atheist, but also feminist and humanist. I don't cringe, though, because I learned a lot from these guys and appreciate that they did wake a lot of people from their religious slumber.

Camila Strassle

Do you think effective altruism has roots in the new atheist movement?

Kristen Gish (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-14 12:00 Love the video! I think your points about the lack of romance/sexuality are really interesting. I used to make my Barbie’s kiss all the time, and I don’t know, I can’t be the only queer woman who’s first exploration into wlw relationships was by playing with Barbies. My straight sister also joked about how she and her friends definitely made the Barbies have sex with the one GI Joe doll that we had. But I get why they didn’t want to touch that. The Barbie movie is a really good movie that I loved, but it’s also an advertisement urging children to play with Barbies. There’s been a big push in our culture against discussing sexuality with children. We’ve taken a huge step backwards in terms of sex education, not that it was ever very good to begin with. Q Anon has created a new Satanic Panic for the 21st century, and it’s not lost on me that another popular movie in theaters right now is The Sound of Freedom. I honestly don’t think the Barbie movie needed to include sexuality/romance, it’s one movie. But if more and more movies are going to be based on brands, and more and more brands are going to be fearful of a BudLight style backlash… yeah, that does concern me.
2023-08-09 19:07

HelloCapers

New patron, and watching the older Tangents now. Watching this video felt kind of bizarre, because a lot of the things it relates to informed my early teenage years and worldview, but I was unaware of the larger culture surrounding it. I'm in my late twenties and not from the US, and while I did consume a lot of YouTube content later, it wasn't till 2017ish that internet got appreciably cheaper in my country and I had the internet bandwidth for things like streaming platforms or watching YouTube in my household. Read a lot Richard Dawkins in high school, in the early 2010s. I did read God Delusion, but I mostly read his books on genetics and evolutionary biology - The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, Ancestor's Tale. Those were some of the books that inspired a profound sense of numinuous (as you put it) beauty of the world we live in. And I do feel a sense of loss at the dulling of that feeling I had back then, even though it comes back now and again. I'm now in the US for graduate school and I did hear about the cringe compilations and so on later, and it's a bizarre feeling to learn about "Richard Dawkins, the internet persona" as opposed to "Richard Dawkins, the book author" - especially when his books (and those of other science communicators) were very important to me as a teenager. Found this a fascinating video - I did not know that it was the ancestor of the SJW cringe compilations of today nor did I know of the connection between GamerGate/antifeminism and the new atheism movement.

June

Amazing video. Opened my eyes to many things. I watched one of these Anti-Religion, New Atheism videos the other day, and agreed with it but found it kind of hostile. Then the YT algo started recommending more to me, and by the thumbnails and noticing that there were certain "leaders" in the community, I began to wonder if in the end that community is that much different from other aggressive, online, religious communities. So I decided not to watch any more of those videos. Glad I did. This video came at the perfect time for me.

Hannah

Awesome video! I'm a semi-recent atheist (or at least... I semi-recently realized I'd been an atheist for a while). Is there a modern positive alternative to what new atheism became? Whatever your brand of atheism is I guess? I'd love to read books and learn things.

Athanasius Kirchner

This tangent hits hard. I realize now that we’re very close in age, I’m only three years older than you, and I was also infatuated with New Atheists at the time. It’s really unfortunate to learn that most of them weren’t just racist, but also sexist - I started to veer away from the subculture when Harris became openly anti Islamist, and even started to defend Christianity for “not preaching the hate and destruction of the towelheads” (I’m paraphrasing here). By that point it also became obvious that Dawkins, Hitchens and the rest were in it mostly to listen to themselves talk and gaze into their own navels. Their focus never progressed, they just kept on fighting the same battles over and over again.

Rachel VIll (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-14 12:00 Thanks for making this! I was really into the "new atheist" movement in high school and although I recognized even then that people like Hitchens and Dawkins were kind of arrogant and dickish, I didn't recognize the misogyny and racism in the community until way later. I even still had fond feelings towards people like Sam Harris in high regard until I started listening to his podcast in 2018 and finally saw how the so-called "secular humanist" movement had curdled into a group of anti-feminist, anti-progressive, smug "centrists" both-sidesing literal eugenecist arguments. Big yikes! I feel really ashamed that it took me so long to catch on to this but it was at least a valuable wake-up call that I am no more immune to this kind of rhetoric than anyone else. Hearing you describe your past in new atheism helps me feel a little less alone.
2023-09-11 20:13 Thanks for making this! I was really into the "new atheist" movement in high school and although I knew even then that people like Hitchens and Dawkins were kind of arrogant and dickish, I didn't recognize the misogyny and racism in the community until way later. I still had vaguely fond feelings towards people like Sam Harris until I started listening to his podcast in 2018 and finally saw how the so-called "secular humanist" movement had curdled into a group of anti-feminist, anti-progressive, smug "centrists" both-sidesing literal eugenecist arguments. Big yikes! I feel really ashamed that it took me so long to catch on to this but it was at least a valuable wake-up call that I am no more immune to this kind of rhetoric than anyone else. Hearing you describe your past in new atheism helps me feel a little less alone.

Thanks for making this! I was really into the "new atheist" movement in high school and although I knew even then that people like Hitchens and Dawkins were kind of arrogant and dickish, I didn't recognize the misogyny and racism in the community until way later. I still had vaguely fond feelings towards people like Sam Harris until I started listening to his podcast in 2018 and finally saw how the so-called "secular humanist" movement had curdled into a group of anti-feminist, anti-progressive, smug "centrists" both-sidesing literal eugenecist arguments. Big yikes! I feel really ashamed that it took me so long to catch on to this but it was at least a valuable wake-up call that I am no more immune to this kind of rhetoric than anyone else. Hearing you describe your past in new atheism helps me feel a little less alone.

Sarrasinae

I remember jumping into New Atheism with excitement at first. I have been outspoken in my opposition to religion since the age of 12 and finally there was a movement that was echoing my thoughts. It never occurred to me at the time that there could have been a substantial illiberal and anti-progressive element to it. Sucks to be wrong.

Eddy Torres

Indeed, as a left-leaning person of faith, I definitely see where you're coming from. It's a perspective that I always enjoy discussing with others who connect with it.

Sappho's Friend

I really love this one. I got into polics in 2017 at 17, and I remember the dear Muslima thing being still referenced, and that same attitude being replicated by anti-SJW channels like ShoeOnHead. I also noticed these weird parralels, both how mainline atheist reddit had originally this anti-muslim bigotry/anti-SJW tendency years ago (idk about now), and how Vaush's content way too often reminds me of anti-SJW videos done by men because a lot of the debates (especially the early ones) and such tend to prominently feature insecure macho posturing; "im so intellectually superior, I totally @n@lly demolished you", "you are just an insecure *insult about height*, you have nothing in your life to look forward to!" etc type of vile tangents. Saying this as his frequent viewer, I know he's like that. It's interesting knowing in more detail how contemporary political youtube attaches to past movements.

Sappho's Friend

I don't think this sexist dominating impulse is unique to rationalism as opposed to a psychoanalytic approach, let alone of the freudian type: psychananalysis was the biggest weapon of sexists and homophobes in the medical and scientific establishment (which is where their performance in relatively controlled settings can be tracked) for a reason, the opposition to the depathologisation of homosexuality was composed chiefly and most prominently of proponents of freudian psychosexual development. Instead, sexism is just a widespread human societal bias, that will to a large degree infest even the most resistant of approaches to truth determination. Because of how labile and unfalsifiable it is, psychoanalysis in the hands of an average academic, and amateur, is an even stronger catalyst of sexist dominating behaviour than rationalism imo. At the very least its not less conductive to it. All it takes to underline the failure of masculine antler clashing pseudo-rationalism is to sarcastically draw attention to the irrationality and hypocrisy of their behaviour, and thus correctly describe it as a strong deviation from the ideals of rationalism (whereas psychoanalysis posesses no such placeholder ideals, and "theoretisations" can run more rampant with no accountability and no adherence to evidence), and as a failure to follow rationalist ideals. Certainly not all rationalism is 18th century enlightenment style rationalism (classical rationalism) either. Personally im certainly on board with the idea that humans are driven by sexual impulse, that persuasion is primarily in achieved via persuading the emotions and not hard logic, that humans arent individually rational (i wrote an essay in philosophy class at 18-19 with this exact thesis), yet i still think trying to stick to the ideal of rationalism is useful, exactly because we arent naturally very prone to being rational actors as individuals. One could call this critical support for rationalism. W that said i do like Poppe's conception of rationalism, and revisions stemming from his version fixed a few typoes

Sappho's Friend

Contra, Muslima/Muslimah is a girl's name, common in the muslim word. I remember the mother of an afghan toddler who was murdered by our Croatian border police and denied right to seek asylum was named Muslima, so it's a real name.

Emily

Except he wasn't using it as a name, but as a way to refer to all Muslim women. Which doesn't sounds remotely right coming out of a white guy's mouth to silence other women, so... and speaking of proper names, hers is Natalie :)

Sappho's Friend

"Except he wasn't using it as a name, but as a way to refer to all Muslim women." i thought that was self evident, and no one is debating whether he is a bigot, you missed my point. I wrote the comment because Contra said "i honestly dont know what this (Muslima) is supposed to mean". When it comes to Contra's name, i know her name very well, but even though i support your choice to call alias using internet microcelebrities, and who you have parasocially bonded to, by their first name, I politely ask that you not push me to do that as well (what were you implying, that i was dehumanising contra for not using her first "proper" name? lol). I find it too invasive and weird for my own taste, so i dont do it, no matter how much i relate to her (a lot), because if i was an interent personality and chose an alias, i wouldnt like to have an army of anonymous accounts idolising me, and predominantly using my first name, it would feel weird and invasive. I only use first names when the relationship is not one sided, I think its more respectful toward the person in question, and myself. im not getting the purpose of your comment tbh.

lotusmaglite

In 1987, at the age of 16, I told my mother I was an atheist, and got a slap for my trouble. That was pretty much indicative of my experience as an atheist up until the New Atheism movement. My atheism was intertwined with my sexuality, and my anger at religion came (still comes) from the same place that lived through the AIDS epidemic and its concurrent moral panic against queerness, that got me run rather ungently out of the military for liking to kiss the "wrong" gender, that grew up in the rabidly, virulently, violently homophobic 80s, and so on, curdling with internalized shame and self-loathing, all blessed by the gods and teachings of religion. So, I was a gleeful participant in the nasty, in-your-face-ness of New Atheism. It was, in my mind, "about fucking time" we pushed back. And when the fedora-wearing crowd turned it into a whiny sadboi privilege-signaling exercise in cringe, I discovered I *could* actually find a group more contemptible than I found religious bigots. I mean, religious bigots at least had the excuse of their religion to help explain why they were so awful. I was made embarrassed to call myself an atheist, a label I'd suffered to wear proudly.

Teageen

Hi :) I think you meant to post this comment on the Barbie tangent, not the New Atheism tangent

Sharra Gamez

I was in the new atheist movement, too, but I'm 6-ish years older than you are, Natalie, so I saw the racism emerging and really felt the sting of trying to be openly female in that space. I think the final straw for me was when Sam Harris and some of the others started getting really into armchair evolutionary psychology. They were saying stuff like, "Women are genetically unfunny because society has never required them to be funny," like genetics can be teased out from socialization in ANY WAY in a belief like that, and it just felt way too much like being told what women could and couldn't be when I was growing up super religious. I was still in touch enough to hear about the elevator thing, but by that point I basically just rolled my eyes and thought, "Yeah, of course Dawkins would say that. What an asshole."

dreamiestdays

Fantastic tangent. So well done. Your reconstructing the kind of historical moment and why new atheism had a kind of felt urgency to it really took me back. This lucidity then makes the subsequent clarity even more direct.

rebecca watson airing all of these dingus's dirty laundry and pulling back the curtain was such a formative "DAMN, what the fuck" moment when i was a teen. new atheism and the whole peripheral "skeptic" online community was one of the few escapist/vicarious solaces i had at that time, but as soon as she started talking about what half of these weirdos would say to her in convention hall elevators and got unceremoniously ejected from SGU, i had to discard basically all of it cause the ramifications were all just way too gross. by the time i started hearing maher and harris and the whole lot peppering in their warhawk/crypto-chauvanist/-imperialist pablum, my guard was already up and my bullshit detector was on a hair trigger. i ahudder to think of what i may have let slide otherwise. in hindsight that ended up being my early ideological offramp, so silver linings... i guess? ughh.... 🤢 EDIT: OMG SHE WENT AND PIVOTED RIGHT INTO REBECCA LMAO

Ellie S Erhart

I think the Satanic Temple as an organization is about working to seperate church and state, and specifically to push back against the power christianity has in the USA. I've never been to any of their meetings or anything, so can't speak to any toxicity in the community, but from the outside they do seem to actually be doing that

D Muthulingam

Phew. The blatant imperialism hits hard in 2024. But there is a long tradition of using rationality as a cudgel for colonialism--the 4 horseman are very much in line with a long history, the dedcendants of which my friend has deemed "the rationality bros," a posturing of rationality that is really just reactionary insistence

Sappho's Friend

I got into New Atheism as a teenager in 2017 after the movement had already lost momentum and fragmented, and after youtube started pushing anti-SJW channels to any followers of atheist channels, even to followers of relatively socially progressive atheist channels. Today, as a leftist I've long outgrown and disntanced myself from new atheism's ideology generally speaking, for various reasons, only further amplified by today's remaining New Atheists being pro-Israel shills, illiterate about the nature of the conflict, and incredibly callous toward Palestinian suffering. However I've retained a few important beliefs from this movement. The most outwardly striking is that i purposefully don't use the term Islamophobia, using instead the term Muslimophobia/anti-Muslim bigotry, because i believe Islamophobia directly by way of it's etymology implies Islam instead of muslims as people should be a protected class/entity and any criticism of Islam as a set of ideas is bigoted by default. I've seen the word's etymology exploited a large amount of times to claim that exact thing, that refusing islam's ideas' protected status (from any kind of criticism, e.g. claims that niqabs and what not are extremely feminist and liberatory being rejected) is inherently racist. While i understand how purpousefully inflammatory performative criticism of Islam from culturally christian people can turn racist quickly, spewing the clash of civilisation narrative, the term islamophobia has the potential to snuff out criticism of Islam coming from ex Muslims and non-racist voiced disagreement with Islam's morality coming from progressives (for example Feminists), which I've just always stayed uncomfortable with. It's not just about both-sidesing terrorism, it's about Islam's ideas. As a gay disabled woman who has survived conservative christianity in my childhood and youth (in all of its sexism and unhinged beliefs about how my epilepsy is caused by demons that should be dealt with via exorcism), i think it's perfectly reasonable to be afraid of the ideas contained within the holy texts of the abrahamic religions, and a fear response to Islam's ideas is reasonable. When that fear transfers into being racist toward muslims as a group of people, it becomes a form of bigotry (Muslimophobia) that one just never left, because of my experiences, and I doubt it ever will. And personally i dont see it as problematic. Much like New Atheism, i believe religion and "spiritualism" is a force for ill in the world, but I've rejected New Atheism's almost single issue campaigner-like centrist/centre right approach to politics, which i saw as one of their main flaws.

Vic

I honestly think the atheist spaces on YouTube and Reddit were rife with arrogant men who wanted to be/thought they were Christopher Hitchens, and were focused on developing persuasive arguments in online/imagined debate and logic pedantry ("that's an ad hominem!"). Even though they really thought they were the most rational person in the room, they honestly were invested in and attached to Hitchens, even to the point of defending his Iraq War nonsense. This model fits so perfectly with Jordan Peterson and probably why many New Atheist men followers moved on to anti-feminist, alt-right content in the same vein.

Najeeb Khadim

Coming back to this because I've been getting really interested in the connections between atheism and masculinity. Masculinity is often self understood as rationality meaning the mind's conquering of the body (in contrast to women who are imagined as having their minds dominated by their bodies - i.e. origin of sexist ideas of women's mood being controlled by hormones or emotion). Part of this idea is the notion of men having control over their lives (particularly as a head of a household or as the heroic individualist figure in a lot of fiction). Religious ideas massively threaten both of these conceptions through their focus on indeterminacy, liminality and humility before an all-powerful God. In works on Muslims at least works on dream interpretation (by Amira Mittermeier), Sabah (by Ammara Masood - the idea of having patience in waiting for God to act), or predestination (Alice Eliot) all point to this idea of an acceptance and openness to the fact that we don't have control over our own lives. So it follows from this someone involved in new atheism would also turn to anti feminism, both of them threatening a masculine self-concept

madi

I actually did "come out" to my parents as an atheist. I'm from a small-mid size suburb in the Deep South (Louisiana specifically) and I fully sat my parents down when I was 13 and "came out" as an atheist. Unrelated, a few years later I came out as gay to them, and much to my surprise, they were MUCH cooler with me being gay than me being an atheist. I think this might say something about the intrenchment of religion specifically in the south, to the point where I felt compelled to lie to my sweet and loving (bless her heart) grandma that I believed in god, but I did not hide my first girlfriend from her

Nicole Song

interesting that my political awakening could've been in this time -- this movement for marginalised communities. i feel like i've been informed by the people that came before me (since I'm about 12 years younger than you), and that's whom my viewpoints have been influenced by -- 9/11, and the new atheism movement, and gamergate, and all that happened after. i literally live in australia and this wouldn't have been possible without the internet...

Queen of Narnia

I think it's interesting to note that the Satanic Temple began around the same time as Gamergate (2013) and one of their first acts was to hold a Pink Mass. I suspect the Satanic Temple was able to collect the feminist/queer atheists who became disillusioned with the New Atheism movement. If my suspicion is true, then it's hilarious how the "Four Horsemen" were so ineffectual at their attempt to destroy religion that they accidentally contributed to the rise of a new religious movement.

Cynthia Sonier (edited)

Comment edits

2026-09-14 12:00 I am an evolutionist, pro-choice, left-wing canadian who grew up after the Quiet Revolution but I still learned about the Bible trhough film and school and also because I'm a huge ancient history nerd and I remember mostly agreeing with the atheists but resenting how american-centered the whole thing was. An american response to an american idea of religion. Not all of us were raised by evangelical parents who didn't let us listen to Marilyn Manson. The Catholic church in Canada gave us residential schools and Duplessis orphans but also universities, hospitals (no, really!) that were staffed by nuns, yes, but who had been trained as legit nurses who could help in operations, not just chant prayers. So that was a big crack into the big "you can either believe in science or religion, not both!" ultimatum. because the two worked together here for a very long time though not in perfect harmony, it even went spectacularly wrong sometimes so we got rid of that system for a reason. When I hear american Atheists dunk on the idea of the Rapture and the perennial Middle East wars it creates, I think "By all means, but that nonsense is all american, made in the 1800s. Other branches of christianity don't believe that."
2024-06-30 19:16 I am an evolutionist, pro-choice, left-wing canadian who grew up after the Quiet Revolution but I still learned about the Bible trhough film and school and also because I'm a huge ancient history nerd and I remember mostly agreeing with the atheists but resenting how american-centered the whole thing was. An american response to an american idea of religion. Not all of us were raised by evangelical parents who didn't let us listen to Marilyn Manson. The Catholic church in Canada gave us residential schools and Duplessis orphans but also universities, hospitals (no, really!) that were staffed by nuns, yes, but who had been trained as legit nurses who could help in operations, not just chant prayers. So that was a big crack into the big "you can either believe in science or religion, not both!" ultimatum for me. The two worked together here for a very long time though not in perfect harmony. It even went spectacularly wrong sometimes so we got rid of that system for a reason but they still worked together for a while. When I hear american atheists dunk on the idea of the Rapture and the perennial Middle East wars it creates, I think "By all means, but that nonsense is all american, made in the 1800s. Other branches of christianity don't believe that."

I am an evolutionist, pro-choice, left-wing canadian who grew up after the Quiet Revolution but I still learned about the Bible trhough film and school and also because I'm a huge ancient history nerd and I remember mostly agreeing with the atheists but resenting how american-centered the whole thing was. An american response to an american idea of religion. Not all of us were raised by evangelical parents who didn't let us listen to Marilyn Manson. The Catholic church in Canada gave us residential schools and Duplessis orphans but also universities, hospitals (no, really!) that were staffed by nuns, yes, but who had been trained as legit nurses who could help in operations, not just chant prayers. So that was a big crack into the big "you can either believe in science or religion, not both!" ultimatum for me. The two worked together here for a very long time though not in perfect harmony. It even went spectacularly wrong sometimes so we got rid of that system for a reason but they still worked together for a while. When I hear american atheists dunk on the idea of the Rapture and the perennial Middle East wars it creates, I think "By all means, but that nonsense is all american, made in the 1800s. Other branches of christianity don't believe that."

TheLovingAvoidant

I've struggled a lot with being stimulated and genuinely interested in some of the ideas and discourse coming from figures such as Sam Harris, while simultaneously tearing my hair out at his myopic, invalidating, and hypocritical social opinions and behaviors that aren't explicitly racist (and sexist), but are functionally racist (and sexist.) Thanks for this video.

mink

Why does Jerry Falwell talk like he’s advocating for genocide in a 1930s news bulletin

Asocksual

I find it very ironic that these guys were so obsessed with total reason (or at least, what they considered reason) and establishing certain, like, organized norms for the Atheist community, because to me, atheism is inherently antithetical to that stuff. As an atheist, I don't worship reason, because I don't worship, period. Also I personally do not believe in the divine, but I think religion can be a force for a lot of good, plus I just think a lot of religious art and culture is cool and interesting.

心妤 蒋

Me too! I’m growing up in Ch*na(youtube just take off my comments when I type the word directly, I don’t know why.) where over half of the population is religiously unaffiliated, and myself is one of them. religion just had never been a central part of my life, so I never thought I need to “resist against” something to be atheist.

Paige

Wow. I've followed Rebecca Watson for several years, and I knew she was involved in the new atheist movement and had some conflict when it fell apart, but I had no idea about the whole elevator incident and the fallout from it. It really does shine a light on what became Gamergate and why Rebecca knows the psychology of these backlashes so well today. It's deeply infuriating that she was put through all of that for the "crime" of voicing a very basic boundary - and, of course, to dare to be a woman voicing anything outside the status quo. Bleak.

Armany Habed

"Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" is basically "Bring your Golden Calf to your place of worship day". Good to see New Atheists were just as ignorant and uncouth as the "extremists" they were criticizing; As if sacrilege and disrespect for over a thousand years of tradition and customs of people they fundamentally do not understand is some righteous denunciation from whatever their version of God is. The US Airforce I guess

zach steidl

i love these tangents. I love the videos you post on your main channel these days but I have been missing the old style of video when i first found your channel. these videos let you make your old style of video and because they arent as big of a production you can also make them about current events like before. The huge amount of effort and time you put into your main channel videos (which--dont get me wrong--I absolutely love) makes it impossible to comment on current trends or events since they would be old news by the time it gets posted. I'm so glad I found these here on your patreon and im more than happy to support you. You have been my favorite youtuber for at least the last 8 years now and I have watched all of your videos many times. That amount of entertainment is more than worth a few dollars a month.

Rose Dombegh

Has anyone here read Abby Chava Stein's "Becoming Eve"? In a way she's also a (distant) descendent of New Atheism ... crazy how far it reached & the impact it had on people's lives.

mati johnston

No but googled it and I just downloaded it. Looks great -- thanks for the steer.

Olson Cannon

Love this. Would have appreciated if you deepened what you meant by draw Mohammad day being "counterproductive" I think that is such an apt word. To me it highlights the way treating the world around you with a lack of empathy and understanding ultimately stands in the way of a more peaceful shared world. We push away decent people by shaming a whole religion-- any whole group. Sow division where we need to be coming together, working as a team to overcome injustice. Special thanks for sharing your personal experience throughout the video, such a great watch!