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June 11 Update (Patreon)

Published:
2017-06-11 19:48:55
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

Spent all week doing solid creative work! To keep this from being a tiny update, I'll go into a little more detail on one aspect.

This section is going to have quite a few maps: familiar locations, new locations, and scene maps. Since this is a continent-spanning war, it needs to have a sense of scope. Part of the benefit of a long game is being able to return to places you remember from previous sections, but I think it's also important to see some brand new places for the sake of verisimilitude. 

So in addition to new areas you'll explore in some depth, there are also small maps that are used for just a scene or two. These can be a fair amount of work sometimes, but I want to have them to sell the scale of the war involved.

I did some events as well, and there will be more maps to do, but as a whole the next update is coming along nicely. I hope to be able to report on more steady progress next week!

$10 backers: I intend to put out a 1.0.1 version of Crimson Gray with bugfixes and some of the improvements you suggested, but I spent time on other things. I can't say for sure when I'll follow up on this, but I don't intend for it to be excessively long.

Comments

FigelNarage

Will the update itself be larger than the normal updates?

SJ99998

Obviously I'm not Sierra, but I remember she said the war would be the largest event of the game. So I think the update will be quite large as well!

sierralee

The war will be more than one update, but I'm not sure exactly how I'll break it into pieces. Right now, though, I am strongly leaning toward the first war update being larger than average. Definitely in terms of total content and side paths, but I hope in terms of an individual run as well.

Censuur

I personally don't mind waiting longer for this to be done in a single update, splitting this up sounds like it would actually take a bunch of extra work, and we've had Crimson Gray to tide us over. That aside, it'd be great to revisit some of the older areas and seeing how things have changed since we last visited, it's been years since Simon last visited his house in Feroholm and I kept thinking it'd be nice to bring that portrait back over (and gift it to Wynn, keeping it seems a bit awkward >_>)

Skull Leader

Due to the size of this important upcoming event, I do not mind waiting longer so that it can be given in one update than split. Especially if this will make it far easier in the end run for Sierra. The only downside that I can think of one big update is that it will be far more intense for us to swat the bugs and proof read.

sierralee

Thanks for voicing this opinion. If enough people did, I might change my mind and do it all in one update. I don't think the difference in extra work will be huge either way, but there are potentially time savings doing it in one. The reason I'm trying to cut it into normal-sized pieces is that I worry that in the short term, all people will see is that I'm not updating, and in the medium term, all people will see is that I didn't release as much. In the long term, of course, all anyone will care about is the quality of the game, so I'll try to make the decision that seems best for progress. Anyway, revisiting Feroholm happens! The war covers a lot of small events in addition to the big stuff.

sierralee

Thanks for your opinion, see my response to Censuur for some of my thoughts on this subject. And yeah, this update is going to be pretty intense, especially for people doing the wiki...

SJ99998

Ooh, then count me in as another person in favor of one big update. I'd rather wait a few more weeks for an update with a good conclusion, though I suppose it doesn't make too much difference in the long run. As for public reaction, I don't think your backers, at the very least, will begrudge the longer wait, since your weekly posts show us there is a reason why you're not updating.

Dubsington

+1 for use of "verisimilitude" (and another +1 for meaning it)

Dubsington

I think most of your current fans would prefer a single update if it means the whole thing is delivered noticeably sooner, but I'm not sure it's the smart move. First off, as you observed it's not great optics, especially for new users. And seeing as how you have been taking steps to get your stuff new exposure, you'll want to assume there will be new users. Second, there's bugs to consider. By breaking it into multiple updates you'll get some "soak time" in on the first two chunks. Bugs are always easier to fix when they are found close to the time they were created.

Morningfrost

The fan in me wants to say "put it out in one big update", but logically I think I'd have to say that it probably makes more sense for you to break it up and continue to do the monthly updates. First, and probably most importantly, the adult gaming field seems to have a bit of a reputation problem in terms timely releases. Major projects like Breeding Season didn't help, even before their eventual collapse, because they continually missed even their self-imposed deadlines by rather HUGE amounts. While they're probably the biggest name I've seen having that kind of issue, it seems to be fairly commonplace. One thing that sets you apart Sierra, is that your updates are timely, and they're clearly not updates put out just for the sake of putting something out. I don't know if I'd want for you to jeopardize that kind of track record simply to throw a gigantic battle out all in one update. My second concern is also bug-related. The earlier bugs are caught, the easier it should be to nail down exactly what is causing them. The larger the block of content that could be causing a particular bug, the more time it would probably take to track down the cause and correct it. My fandom demands that I vote for the thing that makes things easiest on you...but I think there are several pitfalls in doing things that way. ~Morningfrost

Lord Forte Games

Personally speaking, it wouldn't really bother me if you wanted to do it in one update--well, at least in a larger sense. I would still be sad if that meant a month with no TLS, but if that was something you wanted to do and thought was for the best, I wouldn't really object to it either. However, I ultimately kind of feel like your reasons for not wanting to do that are probably more convincing. Also, in general, I haven't felt like your split releases have been meaningfully lower quality than the rest of the game, and I agree with the points that others have made about bug testing for split versions. Another aspect of this is, since the wart will presumably be a large set of interdependent decisions leading to a lot of potential variations, I feel like the partial route will lead to more playtesting. I can't speak for others, but speaking for myself, I tend to do a "first" playthrough naturally, then I go back and try to optimize my decisions and potentially see what happens if I make different choices. And I feel like I'd be more likely to explore a wider variety of potential outcomes if I was doing it in two or three chunks with time in between as opposed to all at once. But ultimately, I'm fine with whichever approach you feel is best for you and for the game. Edit: Grammar. This is what I get for posting in the middle of the night, heh.

Bladestorm

I am all for whatever you decide Sierra, yes I think it would be great to have a big update for the war but then I see the logical side where you would have to go over the entire update and sorting through all the bugs that will arise from such a event plus the wait for it . Then I look at the smaller updates where it would be easier to sort and go through the bugs making sure that they all work but as fans get to a cliffhanger and will be screaming into the wind "Where is the rest?!" . Anyway, I am happy for either option ^_^.

DukeLeto7

Dumb question. The wiki says King Alonon is 85 years old. I'm having a hard time believing that given that he is a sibling of Tyna's mother, which would imply an enormous gap between their births or Tyna's mother being very, VERY old at the time of Tyna's birth. Fluid-decanter says that everything uncited in the wiki is sourced to private conversations with Sierra-Lee, but I'm more inclined to think that this is someone playing silly buggers. What's the lowdown? <a href="http://thelastsovereign.wikia.com/wiki/Alonon#comm-6727" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://thelastsovereign.wikia.com/wiki/Alonon#comm-6727</a> High Priestess Hester being 90 seems a bit less problematic, but still VERY old , even by modern standards.

Lamsey

Speaking from personal experience in software development, releasing smaller updates more regularly is a good way to keep on top of any issues that might pop up, either in terms of bugs or necessary functional tweaks. It's best to get constructive feedback and bug reports in as soon as possible, so that the impact of any required changes is minimised. To give a concrete example, a member of my team recently worked for several weeks on a new feature, and then put up a sizeable chunk of code for review. There were some fundamental problems with the initial approach he'd taken (basically, the DB table layout was wrong), but fixing them was a complete pain because all the work he'd done since then had to be rejigged to fit the proper layout. Worse still, we ended up integrating the changes early due to business pressure, resulting in us messing up our release schedule due to QA issues. The important thing is that this wasn't really his fault. The real problem was the fact he'd been working for so long without a code review taking place, so amongst other things, we've changed our processes so we can review code more regularly, and it's already having a positive impact. Obviously TLS isn't quite the same kettle of fish as the kind of work I do, but the same principles apply. I think the cadence Sierra's currently got with TLS releases is appropriate in terms of managing her own workload, keeping engagement with her fans, and iteratively improving the overall game. I'm not saying that a single big war update is necessarily a bad idea, because I don't have complete visibility over how she's organising things, but I would suggest caution when considering changing a routine that has worked well thus far. I also agree with the statements others have made about perception - obviously, we patrons trust Sierra to make the best decision, but potential patrons might not see it that way. A slow buildup up to a big climax across multiple releases might also encourage people to sign up if they get hooked and can't wait for the next public release...

Nome

Alonon's father could have just married again after Alonon's mother died, and have Tyna's mother be a product of that later marriage. I think just having magic and using mana makes you age more gracefully. I mean look at Simon, he aged like a fine wine and he doesn't even really use magic.

Charles

I want the whole war in one discreet package, in little bites I feel cock blocked. Worked up enough to get hot and bothered, but no please come again later! That said, its a selfish desire. Looking at it objectively, I agree releasing in parts might function better. Visible activity is life around these parts. I could, in theory, just hold off playing until the whole war is out. I can delay gratification! I swear!

DukeLeto7

Here's the problems with that. The in-game text implies that Tyna is significantly under 30, maybe not even 20. If her mother had her in her twenties or 30s, that'd give us an age range of 40-60 if she were still alive, but much closer to 45-50 is more probable. Alonon is supposed to be 85. Even with at least two marriages for his father, that's an enormous age gap for half-siblings. And Alonon's father MUST have been dead for at least the last 30 years, probably closer to 40 , because the war ended 30 years ago and it is referred to as King Alonon's on the Stineford monument. He had to have ascended the throne prior to the end of the war. So if Alonon is something like 40 -35 years older than his late sister, that implies that their father must have remarried a much younger woman in his 50s or 60s, and he did this prior to the Incubus Emperor's invasion when there was no immediate need to safeguard the succession, since Alonon was alive and healthy. We're either dealing with a ridiculously horny previous Ardan monarch who somehow managed to lose all but the oldest child of his first marriage and the youngest child of his last, and all of these dead children's children and grandchildren, to the war, since no members of the Ardan royal family except Alonon and Tyna are in evidence; or Tyna is MUCH older than she seems; or Tyna's mom became a mother in her late 40s or early 50s. The whole thing looks much less abnormal with Alonon a decade or two younger.

Lord Forte Games

It's really not that uncommon, especially in fantasy, for a much younger woman to marry a much older man. Even in reality, I personally have a half-sister who is a year older than my mother is, resulting in my half-sister being about 46 years older than me. While my mother had me at a late age (45), even if we adjust this to 25, our age gap is about the same as the one you're talking about based on a real-life situation. And as I said, the trope of a young noblewoman ending up in an arranged marriage with a much older man is pretty common in fantasy, so I personally don't see a problem with it.

DukeLeto7

The point was that the 85 age for Alonon looks really improbable and there's no citation for it. If Sierra comes in and confirms it as canon, its canon. Unrelated. Your half-sister is a year older than your mother, and your half-sister is 60 years older than you, and your mother had you when she was 45? Either there are two half-sisters involved or someone's been dicking around with time/relativistic space travel.

sierralee

Sorry for the delay, I've been busy. The age number did indeed come from me. While I admit I don't have the entire royal family diagrammed out, I think the following help explain the age difference: - Large age gap between Alonon and his youngest sister. - His youngest sister had Tyna late in life. - There are other members of the royal family, they just haven't been relevant yet. Those three things are plot points that will be somewhat relevant later, so take them for whatever they're worth in easing your concerns. Glad people are paying close attention. ^-^

sierralee

If there was ever a time to delay gratification, it would be this set of updates. In addition to the polishing and bugfixes I'll do, the versions will likely break on a cliffhanger. Unavoidable, sorry. ^-^

Zaq Reman

I agree with what seems to be the general tenor of these comments. Will I be frustrated and impatient when I play this month's update and it ends just as the war's getting heavy? Sure, but I'll also be frustrated when I get to the end of the war and it ends before I get to fully examine the aftermath and pat myself on the back for how low the damage is, or when I get to the end of *that* update and it ends before I get to repair what damage there was in a way that boosts Yhilin to the next Acceptance threshold, etc (not to mention feeling impatient every time I get to the end of an update that didn't quench Sarai's thirst ;p). I guess what I'm saying is that until the game's complete every update will end on some sort of cliffhanger so I don't think the benefits of making the war one giant update are worth the costs everyone else has pointed out.

DukeLeto7

Follow ups: But are all of Alonon's brothers, if any, dead? If there were a surviving male child of the previous monarch, then the Steward and the ministers would be a lot less worried about the line of succession. I'm guessing the issue of succession is going to come down to nephews and grand-nephews with claims of seniority and proximity of blood going up against strict primogeniture then, with rival claimants bidding for internal and external political support? Who is the Duke of Stineford in relation to the Royal Family? Does Ardoheim use the Salic Law principle, and if so does it do so consistently?

DukeLeto7

You can Google all those technical terms for royal succession law, I apologize for my excessive erudition, as I am, in fact, an existentially depressed orc with Internet access via a farm I've stolen.

sierralee

Minor spoilers: The war was hard on the Ardan royal family (too much leading from the front), resulting in the death of many in the line of succession. Alonon's sister avoided marriage for a time, but when Alonon hadn't had any children and it became clear that the succession would be unclear, she entered into marriage with another noble family. Currently the succession is ambiguous enough that it will be nephew and grand-nephews like you said, yeah. The Duke of Stineford is head of a different noble family. They had marriage connections to some of Alonon's brothers in an effort to marry into the royal family, but as things stand they don't have much of a direct claim. Ardan inheritance laws don't exclude women, but they only inherit positions if their male siblings are dead or otherwise ineligible. Female heirs of age are also first choice for regent if the male heir is too young. Spouses of either sex marry in to the more noble family (at least at high levels, things are less clear with smaller noble families). So if Tyna married, she'd be queen regnant and her children would be considered part of Alonon's family, with her husband's family connections as bonus legitimacy to bolster her indirect claim. Beyond direct heirs, succession law is more controversial and inconsistently applied, so there will be multiple claimants. No apologies necessary, there is no such thing as excessive erudition. =D

DukeLeto7

But there are enough candidates floating around descended from siblings of Alonon who are older than Tyna's mom that Tyna is not a major candidate for succession unless something bizarre happens? (Anything involving intervention by Simon would qualify as bizarre. ;p )

sierralee

Tyna is not the foremost candidate, but she does have a strong claim by proximity of blood. At the start of the game she was not often considered, but since her role in the trial at the end of the second chapter, she is a candidate on people's minds. More questions are fine, but at certain point the best answer might be to wait and see how the plot goes. You will meet Tyna again during the war. ^-^

DukeLeto7

Well, the Chekhov's gun principle more or less ensured that Tyna was going to be important. :) I think all my questions are answered now.

deconosensei

I would prefer to have the whole war even in one block as well. However it doesn't matter for me if that means a release in september or later. If u split the war event in blocks, this huge conflict will only looks like skirmishes and i fear u will lose some drama intensity in the process. Just my two cents. Take ur time, release it as u wanted it to be. Don't let the "i have to produce a release each month" disrupt ur work.

Charles

Never had a problem swallowing the age gap, but didn't realize old Alanon was 85. Still easy to see though. Father sired Alanon at age 20. Sires Tyna's mother at 60. Mother bears Tyna at 28-30. Would make Tyna 15-17. Polygamy and, erm, fruitfull child rearing are common hallmarks of high ranking nobility. As an aside, how do you get a paragraph break in these comments without copy-pasting from a text editor? I keep hitting enter by habit and that posts a half-assed comment.

DukeLeto7

You'll want SHIFT+Enter for paragraph breaks. The Word of God above is that Tyna's mother married fairly late, so it's probably more like her age at Tyna's birth was 38-40 or even 43-45. That cuts the age gap with Alonon to a more manageable 25-30 years. The problems I was having with the scenario was the absence of evidence of other siblings or any descendants of them, plus the hard limit for the father's death at 31 years prior to TLS and more likely 40+ years. A king who has only two kids 40 years apart is kind of statistically odd. We now know that the succession problem is not an absence of relatives other than Tyna, but too many nephews and grandnephews with competing claims.

Decanter

I am late to this discussion, but Lamsey essentially said what I was going to say. The war event may be sufficiently complicated that it might be advisable for some players to voluntarily wait anyway, for the sake of not having to replay after things are fixed or rebalanced.

CrazyChameleon

I agree that I would prefer the war to be a single large update. And I will not play the game again until the war is a complete entity regardless. Having to end the war halfway would leave me frustrated. And having to pick it up halfway through a while later would make it feel awkward as I wouldn't be fully in it anymore.

DukeLeto7

Actually, two more questions on things that have been bugging me: 1.) Where is Arclent relative to the world's equator? Obviously, Philon is near the Northern Polar regions and Renthor is Northwest of Arclent per the maps, but it looks like BOTH Aram and Zirantia are sub-tropical deserts while Yhilin, Ardoheim and the elf kingdoms are in a temperate area. So if Aram is near thee equator, why isn't Zirantia also temperate? If Zirantia is equatorial, why is Aram a sub-tropical desert? Invoking ocean current effects doesn't make it any more sensible, although I guess Zirantia having a cold water current that makes it cold and dry like Tierra del Fuego is slightly more sensible... See here: <a href="http://thelastsovereign.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:4178#9" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://thelastsovereign.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:4178#9</a> 2.) How did Orcent acquire such a vast Clentian vocabulary? Most humans as loquacious as him have fairly large libraries and several years of higher education... (I guess magical leakage from the Stineford Academy works as an explanation if you feel the need for a Retcon...)

sierralee

1) You'll see when the world map is revealed. For specific geographic questions, you need to speak to the person who made the map. 2) The ability to acquire language quickly is inherent to his nature in the same way that Ralke's quest is inherent to his.

DukeLeto7

We'll see if AugustusCommodus can tear himself away from gladiatorial combat to comment. :)

DukeLeto7

Nifty, Decanter, Thanks. I guess the Aram desert region must be like the greater Gobi then, a continental climate with wide temperature variation. One more side point. We've established from the above side thread that Arclent is in the Northern Hemisphere. Is Thenours in the North with Rodak near the North Pole or vice versa? Because if it's the former... Well, let's just say the conventional air route from New York or London to Tokyo does NOT pass over Central Asia or the US West Coast. It goes non-stop over the Arctic, which is the shortest distance. Dunno how airships compare to jumbo jets for all-weather flying, but unless they can't power through snow storms with zero-visibility (which is actually pretty reasonable), using Yhilin as a refueling point might not make economic sense...

SurfingBird

About the map: there is no indication that it has a northern orientation. Also Zirantia's desert nature could be attributed to extensive magical damage sustained during the first war. I'm just a cartographer, not an expert in TLS lore, so I could be wrong :)

DukeLeto7

There's a discussion of the same topic in the post linked above by the good Decanter. SierraLee and AugustusCommodus (wiki name of Curtis S.) confirm that the Arclent nation map is mostly oriented to true North (about 7 degrees 30 minutes west if I read correctly and have done the math right in my head) and Zirantia is just above the equator. That still makes a "Hot Aram" a bit odd, but hey it's a game. :)