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July 17 Update (Patreon)

Published:
2022-07-17 17:05:58
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

Been a long time since we had an update without fanart. That was a good run.

Previously, I'd mentioned struggling to keep up with everything I have in the air. Now I'm feeling better and keeping all the spinning plates and balls going isn't daunting. Core progress might not be at 100%, but I'm able to keep things moving forward along with handling the rest.

Rather than discuss any of the other stuff, I wanted to focus on a single TLS thing, because I actually have a question for people. It's specifically regarding Lilith, who is going to get a special quest in an update or two (ish). I guess don't read the rest of this post if you really don't want any future information.

If the player pursues rumors of Lilith into the Renthnor Wilds, they'll be able to navigate a new (weird) dungeon. If completed, Lilith will join as the last optional harem member. I originally had in mind something pretty funky for her as a combat member, but that idea is in flux.

What I want to talk about is Lilith's content. The original plan, way back when I initially conceived the cast of TLS, was for her to fulfill the "actually 1000 years old" niche. Now, years later... while there's some potential risk of legal consequences, more importantly I just think it would be kind of pointless. Nobody who would be interested by that content is going to play TLS because it appears 100 hours in and the audience I have, on average, would dislike it.

So I'm not sure what Lilith will do instead. We could go extreme shortstack, but she's a chaotic shapeshifter so honestly she could do anything. She could just turn into an adult Lilith, but the game already covers this extensively. Some will request Mestan, but that gets into its own issues with reactionary audiences. I considered going full erotic Proteus, but I don't have any ideas that really interest me.

I honestly don't know, but I'll have to decide at some point. If nobody says anything, I'll eventually decide myself, but this is the time to have an impact on my thought process if you have opinions.

This won't be happening immediately (my plans are a bit jumbled and lots of stuff is impending), but it's good to think about this stuff early. Anyway, different news next week!

Comments

Johnbowethejoker

While it would be a bunch of extra work, I think her swapping between forms at random would be most fitting. Other than that, I don't think there's a best option between the ones presented.

Dubsington

I was actually looking forward to that particular niche being filled. A bit of a tradition, really, and never underestimate the value of being able to check a box in the tag cloud.... and I doubt anyone is going to suddenly get mad and report a game they are 100+ hours invested in. (BTW, either that is a low number or I'm a much slower reader than average.)

Zaiaku

I'm actually in the 1000-years-old camp, but I have that peculiar perversion so I'm biased.

Lord Forte Games

I don't have a super strong preference overall, but I admit, I'm in the camp that at least someone dislikes that trope (only in its application to very young-looking girls, of course--nothing against characters being older than they look in general).

Jannes73

One of the core themes of TLS ( I think atleast) seems to be free will. Characters from so many different backrounds keep questioning it. I belief it would be an interesting angle from Lilith as chaos incarnate to question hers. With Mestan now part of her, I belief one could argue that she maybe stabilized somewhat and gained a new angle to look at the world, getting somewhat less chaotic in the process. From a being having spend so many centuries just pursuing chaos in the name of chaos, to a character suddenly finding that unfullfilling. And now with a somewhat more '' human '' Mindset, she could question her past actions. Does she feel bad for all the harm she caused? Angry at the tower for what her role? Unsure what her new goals in live would be? My idea for Lilith would be a character having found an entire new angle for life, uncertain what to do with it and not knowing who she is herself. It definitly could give her motivation for going forward, changing the nature of the tower, however small. I'm not even sure if Lilith joining the harem as a sexual member would feel correct. Maybe in the postgame, once she had time to question and find herself? Of course the question is if there still is enough time to portray such a character, so late in the game. Through, I definitly would recommend against turning her into a sexual member of the harem. Even if portraid well, with her childlike body and behaviour shown so far, I think would rub a lot of people in the wrong way.

BleBle

For me, if it's an optional harem character I would go to shapeshifter having a form of a child and an adult, or even beast-form. We have a lot of variety in the harem and I dont see people making ruckus when we have a "demon" that can turn into a fish-monster. Are we fucking a fish-monster? Yes, in a sense. Will there be people who will play the game because there is a sex with a "fish-monster"? No. This is the same, people will play it for the plot, If they dont like it , they will drop in chapter 2-3. And they will miss pregnancy, demons, and more niche. If we are talking about moralistic and legally points here. I think is a waste of time, in the game you are fucking a dwarf and halfling that some people can say "they look like a child, look at their height" But you pointed in the game that they are not childs, they are adult people and described accordingly. We have scenes, and sex images about them, and I dont think you are having problems about that. There are another creators who went even further: having a "potion" that turn adult people into child, and as far as I know they are dont having a problem, but they dont say it to the "four winds" of course, they put in there and that's it. Lilith is a chaotic demon(Or that's what I think) that can act like a child(breaking things,messing with others) but she is more than she acts, some people would call her a monster, if they play the game. And it is proven that she is a shape-shifter that can turn into an adult, when you fight her and Mestan, you can see an "adult" with her guts out(disgusting). For all of that I think making her a shapeshifter between a child and adult(even if she has a "dark side") makes sense for me and I would bet for that. About Mestan if you killed him, I think it needs to stay that way, some people will not like it, but on terms of history, he made a huge impact like Aeris on FFVII. A miracolous resurrection would not fit for me. And I would bet for her in the "things" we talked about, if you know what I mean. So in summary, shapeshifter between child and adult.Go-go. Have a nice week. Pd: No matter what you do, you cannot have everyone happy, and people will understand whatever they want, even if its not what you wanted to show. Don't forget that.

BleBle

I think you entirely missed my point about Mestan.Or you read whatever you wanted to read and made your own idea. The Mind is an interesting topic. I think I was clear about Mestan needs to stay death, no resurrections of some kind. But I will not discuss about it. Be happy

DragonWarrior45

I'm definitely on the side of not liking Lilith as a harem member at all, there's a lot of games already that support pedophilia, please don't mimic them now that we're at the end of the game.

DragonWarrior45

If necessary though, at least make her transform into an adult. If Simon fucks someone with the body of a child I don't see how he isn't as much of a monster as estaven was for having a child in his harem.

Andrew Harding

Whatever you feel works best for her as a character and for the story you want to tell. The original intent is one I find seriously distasteful, but I can skip that content or hold my nose and power through it. I will comment that it feels an odd niche given what we have seen of her personality and abilities so far.

genericname12345

I don't really care about the 'really 1000 years old' trope, but I don't think it'd fit TLS. Maybe give it a nod and a mention - like Lilith asking Simon if he wants to fuck her like that and he explains that an child-like appearance doesn't do anything for him. Personally, I'd prefer playing up the shapeshifting aspect with Lilith - each scene potentially showing her off in a different form. That is if she gets sex scenes, which I don't really care either way about. As for Mestan, I'm torn. On the one hand I'd *really* love to save him somehow - but, yeah, his death was a bigass moment in TLS I feel and a resurrection might feel like a copout.

DukeLeto7

SPOILERS MUCH!?! Next you'll tell me you're finally tipping us as to what party combat role JIBBERS THE TALKING SQUIRREL would fill! Seriously, insofar as Lilith's sexy scenes are concerned, I'm not sure I can offer good advice on this, excepting that I have to be somewhat skeptical that true "reactionaries" have ever gotten this far into the game. Men's Rights Activists should be offended that you're portraying females as capable in melee combat. Alt-right Libertarians should have quit in outrage at the post-Battle of Yhilin tax policies. Nazis should have been infuriated at the overall positive depictions of Givini people, the representation of "Half-Breed" Elleani as intelligent and capable, and at the general uplifting of orcs. Any of the few remaining serious "Old Reactionaries" favoring hereditary aristocracy at the expense of bourgeois social mobility would be aghast at the game's consistent characterization of aristocrats as corrupt. Evangelicals? Why are they even here? I guess orthodox homophobes and transphobes with no particular political prejudices would count, assuming you class them as reactionary, but that demographic's average reading level doesn't correlate well with TLS players. Short version, it's too late to worry about displeasing assholes. I will note however that a certain reading of the Odyssey might lead one to the conclusion that Proteus was a pinnipedophile. (i.e. a seal-fucker) I think I can safely say you should not take Lilith in that direction.

Noah Andrulis

TBH I’m not sold on Lilith being a harem member mostly because we have halflings for the “actually super old” trope, and mostly because Lilith feels like a character that is childish in nature, rather than one that looks childish but isn’t.

Captain Hair

Obviously Lilith is going to be Trin's best friend and Wendis' co-conspirator in developing weirder and weirder orgies. She could be the battery for Yarra and Nalili's plot to chibify the harem for a halfling orgy.

Civil

The draw of TLS, isn't that it never takes a common trope, it just does it well and adds in other flavors to keep it novel. Do what you will with Lilith, I look forward to however you do it, even if it is the 1000 y/o trope.

DukeLeto7

Carryover from previous post's bugs report, I finished my survey of the game for cases like the 3 Tanurak tower fights where a transfer player call prior to a difficult fight overwrites the auto-save file. Short version is that the only other strong candidate is the two optional mana-gathering fights with Vera and the rest of Mithyn's cult in Aka's Route. And I'm not sure that's really all that worth looking at. (I'll post a full list of the results in a reply comment below with the methodology for anyone who's interested.) I also experimented with some simple manipulation of the autosave settings via scripting calls in one of the Tanurak fights to see if the autosave script could be "toggled off" with minimum fuss. I COULD rewrite the autosave script to give it a disabling/enabling property, but I'm going to suggest another solution based on the optional tower boss fight that Fheliel gives in Ghenalon. Either allow the party to escape to abort the Tanurak fights OR have them pulled back into the game on losing so that they can, to quote Aka, "rethink this". Other forum bugs errata: A player has pointed out that the healing applied to all party members during the Incubus War's Lord of Blood harem event does not remove the defeated state from anyone who has it. (Incubus War/Agnostic Deck (001,000)). No idea is this is intended/unintended.

DukeLeto7

Methodology: The following is a list of every case where there is a transfer player call prior to a battle, or any case where a battle call occurs in an autorun event with dialogue. (Defined as any event in the quadrant of 16 tiles in the upper left hand corner of a map.) It was obtained by torturing the event contents dump with RegEx. Possible missed classes: Any autorun event not in the upper left hand corner of the map. Any autorun event with a battle and no dialogue. Strong Candidates: Aka's Route/Ari-Yhilina Slums/Mage Cult Shed/Mage Cult Tunnels (029,012) Page 2 & Page 3 (Two optional fights.) Simon's Route/Orgasmic Palace/Orgasmic Palace 4F (014,020) - Tanurak Tower Sex Fight New Yhilin/Ari-Yhilina Square/Order of Thaumaturgy (015,020) - Tanurak Tower Arcane Fight Eustrin/Eustrin B4 (025,015) - Tanurak Tower Concrete Fight Edge Cases: Stineford Thaumaturgical Academy 2F (000,001) - Demon Summoning Boogaloo, Yarra helps rescue Robin and Sho Incubus King's Castle 2F (010,032) - Ch2 Fight with orcs abusing sex slaves Yarra's Route/Event Area/Arena Tunnels (008,026), (009,026), (008,020), (009,020), (010, 009) - Minor mandatory Orcent tournament fights intercut with Yarra/Qum looking for Balia Ardford Castle (019,060) - Optional Fight, Tyna Rescue Ardford/Ardford Area/Abandoned Quarry/The Hole (022,014), (028,031) - Vhala fights intercut with Simon group ward disabling. Battle for Yhilin/Battlefield (000,000) - Alt Redlight/Hilstara Fight Zirantia/Ordeal of the Claw/Ordeal of the Claw (006,013) - End of dungeon ambush Eustrin/Misc/Border Camp (000,000) - Starving Succubus battle 3rd Arclent War/IKD Events/Yarra's Tunnel (009,040) - Meeting Elleani fight 3rd Arclent War/Ardoheim Events/Battleground (000,000) - Bridge battles chain 3rd Arclent War/Stineford Events/Feroholm (000,000) - Teleport ambush, 1st Sho battle Erosian Prelude/Zirantian Tower Foundation (002,000) - Sabitha boss fight Erosian War/Erosian Pass/Erosian Cavern (005,010) - Various MWAF miniboss battles. Erosian War/Ghenalese Battlefield (001,001), (002,001) - Drawing Rodakian tower elites out. Ginasta boss fight Second Gathering/Lustlord's Inner Sanctum (002,000), (002,002) - Lustlord Guardians battles (Two of these for some reason...) Second Gathering/Gathering Complex (003,000) - Lustlord Boss Fight Second Gathering/Gathering Investigation/Lustlord's Chambers - Leftover Lustlord Guardian Incubus War/Agnostic Deck (012,013) Page 2 - Cannon Boss fight on weak path (003,000) - Mithyn branch fights Incubus War/Lord of Blood Airship (000,000) - Various LoB scrubs (001,000) Fleet branch Airship boss fight Incubus War/Mithyn's Island (001,000) - Minus Path fights Would be a problem if you could actually game over by losing: Fight with Big Man in Aka's Route Aka's Route Fighting Pits Competition Bloody Spire Orc Tournament Lord of Stillness, Lord of Shadow fight in Ghenalese Tower for Fheliel Orcent Single and Orc Party Tournaments at 2nd Gathering

Innocuous

One option for consideration, that I see you did not bring up, is to not have Lilith become a harem member at all. I understand that there may be some behind the scenes work that would never get to be implemented, but sometimes cutting content is better for the overall health of the game then trying to push in every idea. My reading of Lilith as a character thus far did not have me expecting her to become a romancible option, and in fact if she never showed up again I would not be surprised. The narrative already has so much other stuff going on, events of higher narrative weight, that I think the story is more than fine if Lilith died during the last fight and that's the end of her story. I'm in the camp of finding this trope extremely gross. It's the kind of thing that, if I didn't know anything else about the game, would prevent me from trying it regardless of the other content in it. It's like the Chapter 3 Robin stuff, which if I remember correctly also upset people (and which if I could remove one thing from the game that would be it). As a last argument against, I feel that it would be against Simon's character to pair up with Lilith, regardless of the 'form' she takes. We have already seen Simon reject both Tyna and Feremina for similar reasons, plus I think it would be hypocritical for the Fucklord to be a villain for the harem he keeps while Simon is the 'good guy' because he found the 'right loophole' to have sex with someone who looks and acts like an actual child. I feel like the heart of your question is asking why people engage with your work. I can say for me the fulfillment of niche tropes doesn't even make the list. The complex and evolving political world landscape, the mechanics for relationship development that feel natural, the mechanics for making real choices that impact the world in a continuous and consistent way. These are the things that I talk about to recommend the game to people, not the fact that the game lets you fuck a succubus but also an elf but also a furry but also a whatever else.

sierralee

I'd be less concerned about someone getting mad than a malicious reporter. This is one of the few issues where Steam seems to actually draw a line, albeit inconsistently. (It's hard to say the correct number. All data is skewed by people replaying and flying through everything.)

sierralee

Mestan being resurrected was never on the table. What I meant was that I expected some players to ask for Lilith to transform into a male body like his, since he's part of her now.

Annikath

I totally agree with this. In my mind Lilith has never registered as a possibility or even an interest for the harem. I don't see how she could further round out the cast of lovers and friends, except for maybe if Trin is interested in her? But that doesn't seem like enough of a reason. She can still be around, like some other characters hang out with the harem without being part of it. That would be my take on it.

sierralee

See above comment: Mestan being truly resurrected was never on the table.

BleBle

Nope, that's a no-no from me, at least not as a common thing to shapeshift into him, making a joke would be acceptable though. I hope I made some reasonable essay up there.

sierralee

Hmm, just letting the player escape is potentially the easiest fix. I will have to look at the events again. As for the healing bug reported... are we sure? The defeat status is very easy to remove. I will have to look at that as well.

ReachtheStars

In my mind I never even considered Lililth to be a harem member, and having her be one would seem to go against the character of Simon, he has consistently expressed zero interest in people in that age range, and abhorance at people like the Fucklord who do. If Mestan was still alive or was recreated I could see Lilith and Mestan hanging about and being part of the extended friend group like Orcent and Vhala, that would also fit with Simon's desire that not all of his relationships be sexuel in nature, which I personally find admirable and an important part of his character. But in the end this is your story and I'm sure you will continue to tell it masterfully. Honestly TLS has been one of the greatest gaming surprises for me, when I first downloaded it thinking it would just be like other free erotic games I never thought I would become so engrossed in the story and that I would put in multiple playthroughs. It's become one of my favorite RPGs, I love the way it deconstructs tropes, builds up characters to be more than just sex objects and the moral and philosophical lessons it has. I look forward to seeing how it draws to a conclusion.

Desertopa

The idea of Lilith playing to the loli-looking-character type doesn't have any appeal to me, but I still find this idea incredibly weird. The idea that the morality of having sex with a character is a function of what shape their body is seems so absurd to me, it's hard for me to imagine what sort of coherent moral outlook could generate it as an output.

Long Tran

Personally, I'm fine with the whole 'really 1000 yrs old' thing. I don't get it why ppl get so uppity about that stuff, but if someone is 'not human' and 'fictional to begin with' her looks, aside from being female and cute' don't really matter to me very much. But then, I'm the kinda guy who really liked Rory Mercury from Gate by virtue of her maturity and was turned off on Tuka for being too much of a kid despite her age. ...Hell, even Lelei was a better love interest and she was literally the youngest there. Well, regardless, if she doesn't 'fit in the harem', then that sucks but oh well I guess... Damn. I kinda wanted that random weirdo but I'm also kinda weird.

Desertopa

So, the idea of how Lilith could be added to the harem in a way that's interesting and tasteful, adds something new to the existing dynamics, and doesn't put off existing players seems like an interesting challenge to me. I've come around to finding the idea of developing compelling sexual dynamics an interesting subject in its own right, so I can't help approaching the question from that perspective. That said, I do think there's a lot to be said for the suggestion a lot of players have put forward already that you don't have to. Lilith being a harem member doesn't really feel like a necessary element to the game, where I would feel like something I expected or looked forward to would be missing if she didn't become a part of it, and I suspect that players who've been looking forward to her becoming part of the harem are probably very much in the minority. If you just don't go that route, I don't think anyone would see it amiss. But acknowledging that option, I think if I were to add Lilith into the harem, my take would be to essentially make her an anti-Tertia. Tertia's angle, aside from the gigantism kink element, is her bored and apathetic outlook, where she's so worn out by her vast breadth of experience that nothing really engages her anymore. With Lilith as an ancient being of chaos, my inclination would be to invert that. No matter how old she is, she never gets tired of trying new things, and she's constantly interested in exploring new possibilities. Her sex scenes would probably involve some kind of weird kinks, but rather than rounding out a weird kinks quota, the most interesting angle I can think of for her is a constant excitement to try stuff. I think that would be more likely to add something interesting than anything you could do with her body shape. But, I think it's only worth going to the trouble if you think that would be an interesting dynamic to write after everything else you've already put into the game, because again, if you don't, I don't think anyone would blame you.

Alimaeus

Honestly, you wrote yourself into this when you created a child character who was a potential harem candidate in a sexrpg. So now you want an out, let me give you several. 1. Robin already comes dangerously close to meeting loli and incest fetishes, anyone has those fetishes and plays your game they probably like robin. 2. For people who like short stacks and petite women you already have multiple choices. Wynn is a proto-typical goth lolita. Neranda and Sarai are shortstacks. Robin and Altina are petite. Trin is arguably a brat. 3. The obvious non-sexual solution to this is you just get Qum to make the right sparklies and non-sex Lillith into the harem. 4. Doing a proper shapeshifter could be costly in both time and resources with multiple forms but if you can think of a good way for it to work try it, I won't say no to more tentacle scenes or a in-universe "x-ray" for example. I still think it would probably be better to just not do a child character in the harem though. And I think that one tower mechanism in the harem (Ginasta) is more than enough. If you keep Lillith as a harem member then she has to effectively become a different character.

Reddy Bread

OK so im gonna go back thru this and read it when i got the time but Lilith is not an adult? I mean she always just looked like an adult of a different race to me like a gremlin or something. I never even thought of her like that to be honest lol and I kind of expected her to have some scenes at some point just because she is kinda psychotic and psycho girls are usually god tier when it comes to skinship. Also i will return with a suggestion after some thought because this isnt even something that has crossed my mind to be honest but im sure there can be a place for her somewhere. Liliths character makes me think of that girl from beetlejuice for some reason lmao.

BleBle

She is not a child, she may look like a child, but nothing more than that.

Jeno

I'm all for having a loli esque character if done well, honestly. And let's be honest, you would 100% do it well. If you want to be particularly safe about it, just never make any art for their scenes. Keep them text only. But really, I'm all for it either way. What I would most dislike personally is changing the character to conform to something. Instead of that, don't have any H scenes with her, if that's the direction you decide to go with. Keep the character how you want her. At the end of the day though, it's up to you and what you feel comfortable with. Nothing else should matter.

Grim8P

I'm a bit surprised Lilith joining the harem is an option. I've never really had the feeling that the harem would be interested in her joining them even if she wanted to. This feels like one of many hurdles you'd have to handle, but you've done if before. You have content in the game that I dislike to various degrees already. I can skip futa content easily. Picking up on all of the signs that Robin was romantically interested in Simon was wigging me out as I played the game but it was handled well enough that I didn't end up hating it, despite it actively not being something I have interest in. So when I think about handling another area I am very deeply uninterested in, maybe you can find a way to do it that isn't terrible. But this would be a much higher hurdle than before. If Lilith was to join the harem, I'd much prefer she not be involved sexually. I get the sense that this isn't what you have in mind, so I'll leave that thought there. If she is involved sexually, my biggest issues with this type of content is an adult having sex with someone who looks *and* acts like a child. You can mitigate at least some of my own discomfort with a Simon + Lilith scene with her not acting like a child. I would certainly prefer her change her shape but the content is already not aimed at me. If there are mechanical benefits to having Lilith in the harem, I would certainly recruit her despite not wanting to see any of her content. Thankfully scenes are easy to skip. One version of this trope that I have seen done better than others involves Nowi from Fire Emblem Awakening (which I have not played in a long time, so forgive my memory being poor). Nowi is over 1,000 years old but looks like a child. She also acts like a child... but, iirc, it is a front. She intentionally acts like a child to cheer people up but otherwise is mature and isn't a fan of people treating her like a child. If you look into this character you'll find a lot of vitriol. Part of it is because of her outfit though, which is something you could avoid.

Dmitry F

I agree with others I never even saw the possibility of harem addition with them. I assume the optional content would change that dynamic but the post in general was somewhat surprising to me from this angle. This suggestion is one of the few dynamics I can see it working in a manner that I would enjoy at least. I am pretty averse toward characters that act childish no matter the stated "technically" age. You can be silly and chaotic without being childlike or immature post harem acquisition and that is what I would prefer.

DragonWarrior45

Well, to me the shape of the body doesn't matter, but the age of the body does. I don't care about a girls sillhouette or the size of her tits or anything, but if you're saying that theres a young looking girl who has the capability to shapeshift and Simon prefers to fuck her when she looks like she's 12 rather than fuck her when she looks like an adult, then yes I think that makes Simon a pedophile.

Joker

I certainly hope you don't end up going with the 1000 year old trope. For one I will second that I never felt any indication that lilith would join the harem whatsoever. Personally I just really despise this trope. It's mildly annoying in regular anime. In adult games it's disgusting. I likely wouldn't quit tls over it, but I would not like it at all. I also just doesn't seem like something simon would do. He has voiced his distaste for the idea of sex with women who are adults in their late teens. I do not see him doing anything with a character that not only looks but also acts like a child just because they are technically not that age.

Fandango44

So my speculation for how Lilith would maybe join the harem was always that she was gonna end up merging with Mestan, either by force or by necessity, and basically creating rule 63 Mestan. This would A. Give her an actual reason for wanting to join the Harem in the first place (Mestan's lingering attachment to Simon) B. Pay off chekhov's fuck between Simon and Mestan without upsetting the reactionary audiences and C. Establish the dynamic of how much of this new entity is the crazy chaos tower mechanism and how much of it is our chaotic little shit of a friend. Obviously Mestan's death throws a spanner into that but he wouldn't be the first character in the game to linger for a minute after death.

DragonWarrior45

I fully agree with this. when I wrote my own comment these are the same things I was thinking, but I didn't write my comment out as clearly or eloquently. but I simply don't understand why its not a double standard for it to be bad for the Fucklord to fuck a kid but Simon can fuck someone who looks like a kid. Generally I think children and child-like bodies should never be in a sex scene. I'm fine with Lillith being a Vhala type character, part of the group but not sexually. or if necessary to at least just make everything with her shapeshifter oriented, but it seems very unlike Simon to want to keep Lillith as is. Plus I just really don't want to see her content, which hasn't been the case with any other harem member (except kinda Robin).

DukeLeto7

However, let the record indicate I am not cool with "Lilith as child".

DukeLeto7

The reporting player described Nalili having been defeated in a fight preceding the healing event and not being healed by it. I didn't get a save from them or try and replicate it. The healing event in question is just upping hp and mp by a variable amount depending on whether Simon indulges in the H scene or not.

Steven

Final harem member should be Sho. 8U

Jens Mikli

If she's optional I'd much rather you worry about including stuff you haven't been able to and broadening appeal than worry about how someone who is 100 hours in is going to react negatively to something that isn't in their game. That said the problem with other optional party members is that one path leads to them getting character development and a bunch of dedicated scenes during important events and the other one is just kind of there. Like literally dominated Varia's has line that are "..." right after you get her. So my only advice is to only bother including stuff you are interested in actually writing and to make that interest a primary concern beyond whatever else is going on.

SantaTheHutt

I think you can pull off Lilith, Agent of Silliness and Chaos, without resorting to the 1000-year-old child trope. It might even be more impactful as an adult character: with a child, you can dismiss silliness as immaturity (even with the 1000-year-old thing), with an adult, that's harder to do. Adult Lilliith thumbing her nose at social conventions, making light of the serious, and dramaticizing the trivial is harder to dismiss. I could also see Lillith disrupting all of the careful tactical planning that the harem tends towards, and Leroy Jenkinsing a Tower map, making things unnecessarily difficult for the party, but having a blast in the process.

Rachnera

Hmm, not easy to find a not too extreme form of chaos sex that isn't covered by Trin/Eldrith Wendis/Sabitha. Things which come to my mind right now: Full psychedelic sex scene and art Chaotic shapeshifter -> Loki -> Gender swap Lilith -> Succubus queen -> Some way for her to become a special succubus before sex. Maybe a weird fusion magic that would create an unholy mix of herself and one or several other harem members. Actually, not on purpose, but realizing all these concepts could work without Lilith being physically involved in any sexual activity herself, and more as a malicious spirit throwing chaos in scenes between Simon and not so young looking characters.

Decanter

I don't think the original plan for Lilith would've been immoral or whatever, but I've thought about this, and I think where I'm at is that I don't see a route where Lilith joins them and it feels in-character for Simon. I think he could just barely tolerate her hanging around as an ally, but even letting her into HQ feels like pushing it. It'd be like letting The Mother join instead of harvesting her for goddess crystals. It could be that I'm wrong and you'd make it interesting and justified. It seems like in the past you surprised some people who didn't think they'd be okay with the Robin arc, but were okay with it. It's a little weird to see concerns about platform rules or reactionaries at this point, considering some of the content that's already in the game, but I guess I won't elaborate on that so as not to give any bad actors any ideas. Like some past commenters, I sort of felt that if we got Lilith or Mestan in the harem, it'd be through them combining into one (female, adult-presenting) entity, still mischievous but maybe not amoral like Lilith seems to be. I think that would be a reasonable path. edit: A shapeshifter would be cool too.

Decanter

It's good to have shared interests with one's friends, I suppose.

logan80

I personally wish you wouldn't add Lilith to the harem for two reasons. First of all, I believe that the harem is too big already and if I'm not mistaken, you also had doubts about it (judging by a conversation between Simon and Aka where she complains that Simon has less and less time for them) Secondly, I would really like to believe that for any woman to become harem member there must be some real chemistry between her and Simon. I don't want this process to turn into pokemon catching where the only reason to join the harem is that she just popped into Simon's line of sight

Decanter

The distinction you are making between "shape of the body" and "age of the body" seems incoherent. By that logic, if someone develops in a sufficiently physically precocious way that they "look 18" when they're 14, it'd be okay to fuck 'em. But that's not really what "age" means - that's just achieving a certain shape of the body earlier than expected. Age is a measure of elapsed time since birth, which we use as a proxy for mental maturity and competence to give consent, because it's impossible to directly or objectively measure those things. That's why we have an "age of consent" and not a "body type of consent". I think you should think a little harder about the ethical concerns instead of trying to build a rationalization around what triggers your disgust reflex.

Mycroft

Well, the "actually 1000 years old" is quite dangerous, and could have the game baned from steam, and maybe patreon too, at least in some country, so I strongly advocate against it. I'm not sure what to do with a character that is the chaos incarned. It's a little late to "trinify" her (we now our favorite psychopate since chapter 1, and we can love her despite her flaws). The only strong link the team has with her is Mestan. So two options for me : 1 . cancel the lilith as a harem member plan (replaced by Ulrissa or the Mother ? Or replaced by more scenes with existing harem members) 2 . Make the mestan part of lilith resurface and "take controle" becoming a "female Mestan" in order to join the harem. Maybe using its shapshifter ability to become "the absolute desire" of the harem members it interacte with. But to be honest, I thought that the shapshifter spot was already taken by our favorite demoness.

Dreikanter

From a thematic perspective, I like the idea of Lilith joining the harem. It neatly caps off the dizzying progression of Entities You Can Romance: first traveling companions, then renowned experts, then queens and empresses, then goddesses and demons, and at the end, finally entering relations with a fundamental aspect of reality itself. Moreover, I like the idea of Simon trying to reach an accommodation with an entity whose job is to upset the established order while simultaneously trying to become the established order, and having that accommodation become more intimate through one plot device or another. It's a good hook, and a useful parallel with Ginasta. In order to avoid the risk of someone maliciously trying to create a scandal, my inclination would be to play up Lilith's inhumanity a bit more rather than relying on shapeshifting. Abstract or psychedelic visuals, tantric sex, connecting to the inchoate chaos underlying the world, and so on. She can be the 'actually 1000 years old' character without having to make a loli CG that might be shared around out of context. I think that exploring Lilith's character more could definitely be worthwhile, and that she could be a good and unique addition to the harem.

DragonWarrior45

Yeah you're right honestly I'm not really writing my thoughts clearly right now. I'll take this far more slowly. My point with age vs shape of body was simply that a body can be flat and still attractive, an immature body isn't something that I think should be sexualized. "shape" as I would describe it has nothing to do with it, but "age" does, meaning someone who hasn't matured both physically and mentally, thats why I think the halflings seem fine, they look "youthful" but are actually just small humanoids. Perhaps I'll have difficulty wording my thoughts on that, but I simply didn't like the original wording in Desertopas message. To me the body of someone is just as important as the mind, yet to say I'm judging the shape seems insulting and absurd. Perhaps I simply misunderstood something? But anyways, sexualizing lolis and the whole 1000-year old trope is something I truly hate, so it makes it harder for me to type out my thoughts as the topic does in fact disgust me, and in a similar strain anger me. I suppose I'm simply what other comments were calling "reactionary" but I never expected my side to have such backlash honestly. My only point, written as clearly as I think possible, is that children should stay out of sex. Both anyone under the age of 18, and anyone who has either a mind or body that seems under the age of 18. Lillith feels too much like a child, as she both acts like one (at the very least at certain times) and has a childs body. I don't like her in the harem at all, but I wouldn't mind her as a non-sexual group member, like Vhala. If she truly MUST be in the harem, I hope that at least anything sexual is done via shapeshifting into an adult first. I just don't really understand why anyone would want to see sex scenes with a woman in a childs body, even if she does have the mind of an adult, I don't see how that can be classified as anything other than pedophilia. But these are just my opinions, feel free to voice your own, and I'll try to respond as calmly as possible, but please understand that I simply don't understand the other side, to me everything and anything that involves the features of a child in a sexual situation can only be described as pedophillic. It's worth mentioning too that regardless of how this goes I'll probably accept SLs decision and at least see how the situation goes in-game before abandoning TLS, if I even do that. I was also not a fan of Robin joining the harem, and the way it was handled made sense and wasn't so bad. I still dislike it, but its not nearly as bad as it could be. That was never something worth quitting over. This however, to me, feels 100x worse than that ever was. But Sierra Lee is a great writer, I trust that she can appeal to the audience in a way that isn't simply pushing people like me away and ignoring our plights.

Reddy Bread

Good I thought so. I never thought she was which is why it kind of confused me. So tbh I dont think it would be a big deal as long as she doesn't appear in h-scenes looking like she is 10 or something. I once saw a story about a chick that was a pornstar and even tho she was 18 when she did a scene a dude got arrested at the airport for having cp. She ended up coming to the dudes trial and saving his life by proving she was 18 at the time. The prosecutors were tryna say she was no more then 12 lol.

Jens Mikli

I'm vaguely offended by the idea that the mere fact of it not being rape in any sense is the loophole to the important moral question of "does this look unsexy" but then I suppose that's the succubus way of looking at it.

WaxerRed

Well the solution here is clear! Make Lilith into a GILF. Nothing is hotter then a 1000+ year old in a 98 year old woman's body! But really, jokes aside, it's good to hear you are doing better! Even if you aren't 100% just hearing that things are going well for you is great! For Lilith starting from a story point of view I'd be very interested to see her join forces with Simon, either in Harem or just as new friends. While I admit it does feel a little sudden, she's not the first character who didn't start their arc until after joining the harem/group, so I'm in no way against that. Really I'd be very intrested in learning more about her. As for the 1000+ year old trope, I'm in the 'for it' camp. I'd be very interested to see how you play on it! Plus it could make for some fun choas sex scenes. I could see some people saying it'd be 'out of character' for Simon to engage with in Lilith in this way. But I'd imagine firstly that her joining of the Harem would not be Lilth"Ey yo wanna fuck" Simon "Bet on it." XD And Simon has always been a shapeshifter himself when it comes to fucking his lovers the way they want to be fucked, so I can see him giving Lilith's 'body type' a try. Obviously though this is a subject of great debate, as seen with the other comments there's what looks like a somewhat even split of 'for-against'. For the most 'optimal' solution would be to have Lilith's 'body type' be player decided. Players can let Lilith decide how she wants her body to be, or Simon could ask her nicely to change to an acceptable range for his tastes. That was she can appeal to whoever wants this type of content, or can be avoided by anyone who wants to stay far from it. As for fear for ban on Steam/patreon, you could make it so that adult only is the only option for those platforms, and the secodary choices are aviable on your own personal blog. Of course the downside of this approach is that is a a lot more work for you to do, so that in itself can be reason enough not to do it. Honestly, go with your gut. Make her the 1000 year old cliche or make her an adult, or have ehr be something else. Doing any or either will not be the option some fans prefer, but it is impossible to please all fans. If you wanted to please all fans, you'd need to add in, Gay sex with Mestan, a SSBBW character, a cuckold bad end for Simon, and a girl with a gas mask, just to satisfy my own fetishes! So at the end of the day, make the game however you want, and do whatever will make you the most content in the end!

Jens Mikli

Though if you're strapped for ideas I'm partial to anachronistic stereotypes like gyaru or video game nerds that she is able to harness like the Genie from Disney Aladdin making constant references to modern pop culture in a preindustrial setting.

AlphaOmega47

I think having Lilith join without any sort of physical AND mental change wouldn't make a lot of sense, while Simon has taken harem members before that were more for his plans or expediency I think he is past that point now. I would actually like Lilith to join but I do think some kind of transformation that puts her in a position of needing Simon's help to navigate her new circumstances would be needed. Anyway keep up the great work.

ushiroace

I personally like the original idea, as long as it's handled with tact. I mean, you completely made Robin work so I have no reason to believe you couldn't also make Lilith work.

ushiroace

@DragonWarrior45 The reason it isn't a double standard is because the Fucklord enslaved the girl and did it entirely against her will. She wasn't even mentally developed enough to understand sexuality, much less partake in sex.

Quiet Stranger

I suggest that Lilith initially try the "actually 1000 years old" niche, only to be firmly rejected by Simon. After all, he does not need to actually sleep with someone in order to bind them to his harem, and he might not necessarily find a childlike body attractive. That rejection could motivate Lilith to take on a more honest form. Or be a catalyst for any number of other things. Or simply be where things are made to stand and stay. I am curious to see how she will interact with Ginasta (her metaphysical opposite) and with Trin (her mood kindred).

sierralee

Sorry to shoot you down, but... Actually 1000 years old: Well, there are a lot of factors to consider. Modern anachronisms: NEVER.

sierralee

You've said a lot of different things here, so sorry to respond to only one part, but for the record: splitting the game into alternate versions isn't viable in my mind. The compile/upload process is already longer than I'd like.

Jeffrey Lebowski

My comment got completely eaten, but the crux of the only idea I could think of that wouldn't be a dubplicate of another character's niche would be to show how Lilith's chaos affects Simon's internal experience (kind of leaning into how she could cause a bunch of random and contradictory status effects rather than her shape shifting). So like mood swings in their scenes between sweet, rough, passive, or whatever. It could potentially contrast Lilith with the other agent of chaos on the team - Trin - since Trin is chaotic but tamed/controlled/enslaved by Simon. Having Lilith's chaos actually overwhelm Simon's control and orderliness could be interesting. But also interesting ideas in the abstract actually have to be executed (like the erotic Proteus idea) so this sounds like a bit of a conundrum.

DankPotatoes

I'm all for Lillith joining the gang, the more the merrier. But, ergh, not really comfortable with the way she looks now tho. I think the people who'd dislike this would be far more displeased than the people who'd like this would be happy with it. If that makes sense. Not to mention this seems pretty far out of character for Simon to get down with. He's said strictly no to Tyna, Sho, Felemina, all on the account of them being too young. Making a 180 turn seems strange now. I believe the existence of Robin and the various Halflings is as close as you should get to this particular danger zone. But Lilith is a shape shifter and pretty much chaos incarnate, right? If it's not too much work for the guy/gal who makes character portraits, having a character whose gimmick is changing her appearance constantly in dialogue would be very fun. Could be her way of getting rid of Simons apprehensions. On a side note, I've noticed how much people engage with questions like this. I think people really like being asked their opinion about whatever stuff, and being asked to engage with their creators on Patreon. Just a thing to think about in the future, if you want activity on the patreon, Sierra. Polls and questions and whatnot.

Jens Mikli

I see now I have crossed the line. Consider these alternate forms of cringy metatextual reference humor : the entire cast and setting genderbent ala Fionna and Cake from adventure time due to Lilith's self indulgent fanfiction! Her shapeshifting into various cast members to recreate the most stereotypical porn parody versions of them! Her doing a reenactment of all the pivotal emotional sex scenes while comically missing the point of all of them!

WaxerRed

No worries, completly understandable!

DragonWarrior45

@ushiroace I suppose that makes sense. I always just viewed it from a shallower position of: "Holy crap! one of the Fucklords kinks is children! this guy is a monster!" I assumed thats the same position Yarra took when she noticed the child during The Gathering as well. I still think it looks bad for a member of Simons harem to be a child regardless of if thats her true body or not. Just imagine if Ginasta or Vhala or anyone else was judging him via his harem like they did before, I don't think Lillith as a child would be easy to explain away, but maybe I'm wrong.

Desertopa

As an aside, the precocious physical development thing is far from unheard of in real life. I was a fencer growing up, and one time when I was thirteen, I fenced a match against a woman I would have pegged as being around twenty years old, and she threw kind of a temper tantrum when I beat her in a complete shutout. I was shocked that an adult woman would behave in such an immature manner, and it wasn't until I asked about her afterwards that I learned she was actually twelve years old. She just looked like an adult due to an endocrine disoder. Personally, I find the idea of a person like that, whose actual level of maturity is childlike, participating in sex, much more viscerally discomforting than the idea of a person who looks physically childlike but has a more adult state of mental development.

DragonWarrior45

Of course! That's still pedophilia in my book, I think both people have to have the mental and emotional capability of an adult before having sex. Normally this is identified simply by age, but sometimes fiction can make things complicated. I personally find someone with the body of a child and the maturity of an adult to still be more disturbing, because to me age is most easily identified physically. I mean, as a kid I was always considered mature for my age, but that never changed how old I was. But I understand your point, I've just never met anyone with precocious physical development or seen it in adult fiction, so I never considered it while I was responding to the implication that the shape of a childs body is ok for sex, which is what I thought your first reply was implying. Personally I think it's best to just avoid anything that ties a child to a sexual situation no matter the situation as the results are deeply disturbing to people like me who dislike it, whereas those who support it seem to only feel ambivalent about it or supportive of the trope at best. But that's just my opinion.

Miller

Lilith is a chaotic being, and the main chaotic being that comes to mind from mythology is Loki. The main things I remember about Loki and shapeshifting are using it to mess with others, and having inhuman offspring (like Odin's horse). My main thought would that Lilith's niche or role in the harem would be based around personality or function. As far as a physical form I would guess Lilith would like Loki choose a favored form, my guess would be that she might compound a form that would be a mixture of her standard form you meet (because she likely chose it because she likes it) and a female form of Mestan (because she made that form, the harem is familiar with it, and she likes messing with people).

Mike Ju

yeah a female form of Mestan, is probably the way to go.

Argo The Ratfolk

I agree with the female Mestan idea others have suggested for what its worth!

DukeLeto7

Another minor bug report from the forum. The Ghenalon Palace map doesn't have its Autochange BGM set to Ghenalon. This means that the music stays the same if you enter the palace from the Kaant map, but it you teleport in from Fheliel's marker in HQ B1 it also stays set to the "Camp" track.

Jannes73

Found a little mapping error, in the lustlord palace during the gathering. The pillars in the main hall are bugged. If Yarra as the player character moves behind them, she is still displayed as on a higher layer then the pillar.

sierralee

I believe I have found and fixed the bug, thanks!

FormerHater

While There is Merit to the Idea and there most definetly exist a niche for such an audience. I Believe the potential negative outweights the potential positive. Even if it's just endgame content the entire game would then be tagged in a way that could be misconstrued and diminish its wide appeal. I can already imagine dozens of guys looking at a "loli" tag and then going through the game skipping all the dialogue just to give up 1 hour in and leaving a negative review on TLS. I may just be overthinking it but I honestly think that such a character and tag would leave the door open for something like this to happen. I do think a joke about a child looking character would be funny. A chaotic character would definetly enjoy causing such mess. But there is a lot more one can work with in the case of a shapeshifter. Though these are merely my own thoughts and trust your vision will be enjoyable and interesting. Good to hear you're doing a bit better. Cheers.

Khinzaw

I personally don't really care either way, but I think it would make sense for a chaotic being to seduce Simon with an adult body and shapeshift to kid form specifically to fuck with him. The easiest course of action obviously is to just make it optional.

Decanter

> I can already imagine dozens of guys looking at a "loli" tag and then going through the game skipping all the dialogue just to give up 1 hour in and leaving a negative review on TLS. Why is this likely to happen with *this* tag, but not the other fetishes in TLS that don't show up until several hours in? There are certainly people who ignore warnings that TLS is a long game and some aspects of it are a slow burn, but I don't see why this particular tag would cause more of that phenomenon than usual.

Sion

I'm sure there's some interesting ideas/dialogue that could result from your former plan but if you're looking for alternatives I think that maybe having her shapeshift into a tinkerbell sized pixie could add some visual variety to the cast. I'm not sure how feasible that is but I figured since the child form is used because she's the personification of chaos, mischievous fey creatures are also good representatives of that theme. Specifically I'm thinking of Puck from Midsummer Night's Dream.

Decanter

After reading some conversation on the issue, I think there's another angle that could be taken with Lilith's inclusion in the harem, focusing on the shapeshifter aspect. In the early game we had a dynamic with Yarra in which she would try to get Simon to 'take' (or at least fuck) random girls. Yarra got over that, but Lilith could do some sort of reprise of that. Yarra couldn't actually take on the form of e.g. Tyna or Kara during sex. (Yarra could've used illusions, I guess, but she didn't - maybe Simon can pierce them too easily or something.) This maybe isn't enough to be a character's "thing" by itself, but it's not incompatible with other suggestions like the feMestan thing or the tiny stretchy fairy. This still needs it to believable for Simon to include her in the harem in the first place, but if that hurdle is cleared, this could provide more angles for good content with her. It's pretty execution-dependent, but so is every other idea I've seen. As for "erotic Proteus", I guess one scene with her as a goo-girl might finally explain why sexual demons sometimes look like heaps of goop.

Khinzaw

Upon further thinking, since Lilith and Mestan are sort of a split being, a female fusion of Lilith and Mestan might be an option, though obviously that would have big story implications for you. Do as you will though.

FormerHater

Fair enough. I guess that didn't happen with a furry tag. I may just have a very low opinion of purveyors of such a tag. I do think that this tag in particular can cause the game to be grossly misconstrued. Loli does cause a sort of visceral reaction in a lot of people, for better or for worse. I personaly believe it might not be the best course of action for a small fragment of endgame content but only time will tell. Cheers.