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Lustmas continues as we see Santa's elves hard at work! With a bonus frame, like a Christmas card, so that you can send this one to your grandparents. I hope everyone has been enjoying Lustmas and looks forward to the Christmas finale next week. ^-^

Meanwhile, I'm going to continue the unplanned season of long text posts by rambling on a subject that's been on my mind. I don't only think about whether some game concepts are unworkable in the context of adult games; it comes up in other sub-genres too as I try to think about narrative on a fundamental level.

Of course, creators can do whatever they want, but I'm not considering that simple answer. There are also questions of whether you can do something well, or in such a way that you actually reach an audience. This leads me to think about certain narrative "problems" and wonder if they're truly solvable. Almost like a chess composition.

In this case, I'm thinking about JRPGs with a certain tone and whether or not it would be possible to do a subversion twist without losing your audience. If you play the subgenre, you probably know what I'm talking about: the main character is idealistic without having put too much thought into their ideals, refuses to give up in the face of adversity, and may reference the power of friendship. I think in this company it's safe to say these stories are often naive and uncomplicated. What I'd like to do is take this character and slowly turn them into the villain: not in a corrupted sense, but doing increasingly terrible things for justice with their friends.

A lot of people might hear that and go "haha" but executing it is the tricky part. I'd want to play the initial tropes straight, which means you have a potential problem of splitting your audience: the people who like the earnest part will hate the twist, and the people who would have liked the twist won't play long enough to see it. I worried about this with TLS, with people bouncing off the prologue, and this hypothetical game would need a much longer prologue than ten minutes.

There are hypothetical solutions, of course:

1) Hint about the twist early on. Unfortunately, JRPGs are usually filled enough with mysterious figures and MacGuffins that I think all but the most heavy-handed hints wouldn't register until later, which would defeat the purpose.

2) Heavily satirize the tropes played straight, potentially via other characters/elements that contradict that arc. I think this is theoretically viable, but would be hard to execute. There's no such thing as perfect balance, so you'd definitely lose some people in both directions.

3) Reduce the problem by having the first scenario be a microcosm of the whole plot. This would limit the confusion to TLS levels, but runs the risk of blunting the slow arc toward villainy.

4) Play this character arc as a subplot within a larger story. This one reduces the impact but it's much stronger conceptually; I actually tried it in an unpublished pre-TLS story.

5) One tricky option I'm surprised I didn't include at first would be to start in medias res, making clear certain negative outcomes but not how the story gets there. While this potentially ruins any surprise, if done properly it might set expectations while still letting the descent play out properly.

Many of these could in theory work, but I don't know if they'd land in a memorable way. I play a decent number of games, but I'm not sure if any have already taken a shot at similar concepts. Another problem, specific to me, might be that this concept would be too similar to work I've already done, since I do like twisting heroic tropes. I think it's a well worth returning to, but only so often.

Ultimately I don't have a real story idea here, much less something I'd pursue; this is just some abstract thinking I engage in while watching particularly earnest JRPG cutscenes. Hopefully it has entertained someone. ^-^

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Comments

Lord Forte Games

This is an interesting idea, and a hard question. I think it'd be very difficult to do as the main arc for the reasons you discuss, thinking back on even the responses to Ouroboros initially, before you created the description that made it more apparent that something was wrong from the get-go. I do find it to be a fascinating concept, though--and one I've actually given a lot of thought to before, probably because of your influence XD In particular, I have some plans to use a similar arc for a villain in my own game. Probably a relatively minor one, all things considered, but I think I have a good setup for such a thing to work decently well. In particular, my actual protagonist is from a storied dynasty of Sorcerer Kings with at least as much of a bad reputation as a good one, so it's relatively easy for an idealistic young lord from a traditionally hostile kingdom to fixate on him as a sort of dark lord who must be overthrown. With that feeling being fed by frustration at being defeated multiple times, and the influence of more powerful ally who has a much more "power prevails" philosophy, Essentially, accepting increasingly drastic means to pursue what he's decided is his justice (and accompanied by his loyal band of friends, troubled by the changes but not willing to turn away from him because he's still their leader and friend) instead of reconsidering the path itself. I'm hoping to make his descent from a misguided hero into a true villain an interesting if minor plot arc.

DragonWarrior45

I think the best way to go about it would be to throw in a hint or maybe multiple small foreshadowing moments. Yes, some people might not notice, but the point is for it to be shocking right? I don't think people will be that turned away by a twist either, because the work will likely attract the audience that fits it best. I mean, that's what happened with TLS I assume. Investments and stats being noticeable aren't immediately seen, but because that's what the audience talks about, new players come in looking for it. But I'm not expert on this stuff, so maybe it's not as simple as I think.

FenyxSCPlayer

Describe what is gonna happen in the title. Descent into madness/corruption/injustice (around those lines) Problem with narrative is how many people you want to reach. Stereotypical Stories are that way because they reach a lot of people. Even if humanity is morally gray they like to be inspired by stories, and only people that "have seen that already" will pursue the other histories. So with these kind of stories you have a problem from the get-go: the dissapointment its also very very hard to do, I think you could pull it off, but it will be yet again another polarizing work of yours

Fake Name

I like the idea. When I think about the monomyth/"hero's journey" the path for heroes and villians starts off the same but splits at a point. I can't remember the excact point, but I would bet on points where you would choose the more difficult, more virtuous choice as the hero. So this can work but yeah creating a compelling situation(s) will be difficult. Also scaling the situations to show the habit of making immoral choices leading to ever less ambiguous situations being handled immorally. It would be good to contrast with simmilar situations in the beginning being handled virtuously. I don't like the idea off implying that immorally leading to good outcomes. But you can constrain it by for instance having an end where the country is in ruins, or doomed beyond recovery. But the protag and love interrests surviving and moving to another country, For instance. Personally I've always wondered if it would be possible to combine the archetypical stories of "St. George and the dragon" and "Beauty and the beast". But that might not fit with turning the protag evil.

Dubsington

You're not wrong about splitting the audience. I remember pushing ouroboros on an ero-game fan in a DIscord and recall how frustrated I was when he stopped playing it because it seemed "predictable and repetitive." Of course that is the point, and had he stuck around a little longer (or, more likely, paid a bit more attention to the game) he likely would have ended up enjoying it. But he bailed out early before he got the joke. Thing is, basically *all* your games shit on tropes. (I remember having to pick my jaw up off the floor with the "Receive X gold" twist in the beginning of Desecration of Wings.) If you're looking to expand into untapped populations, then yeah, this is a real concern. But if you're expecting this to be a relatively simple monetization of the Sierra Lee fan base, then I think you have no worries at all-- we'd be crestfallen if you were ever to let a trope go by unmolested.

Joker

Reminds me a bit of Scarlet Nexus. It has two protagonists, who end up on opposite sides of a conflict for most of the game. Not outright villainy, but more the case that they both have reasons to do what they do. Though one of them fits the naive idealist and comes across in my opinion much worse than the other.

sierralee

Honestly, I'm torn on what kind of ending would be appropriate. I'm fully malicious here and my preferred direction is Bad Guy Wins, but you're correct that's often unsatisfying. I wouldn't want to do this as the first part to a larger story (I think switching protagonists would be better for a less satirical game with hard moral conflicts). If I'm going to kill off the stereotypical hero, I think I'd prefer to do it as a final doomed charge, a la Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

sierralee

Turns between heroism and villainy are great, and in a work with a more serious moral framework like what you're describing, it can be a great way to set up knotty moral conflicts. I must admit, however, that it's twisting the JRPG hero with zero moral thinking to evil that particularly entertains me in this case. XD

sierralee

To be clear, this isn't something I'm planning to work on or even seriously thinking about, just an idea that bounces around in my head sometimes.

sierralee

Yeah, I do have fun with this sort of thing. ^-^ Again, I want to be clear that this isn't really an idea or something I'm pursuing, just a concept that I've turned over in my head from time to time.

sierralee

Serious conflicts by good actors on opposite sides are definitely the material for great fiction. As you noted, one often comes off better than the other, because it's difficult to walk that line. I admit in this case I'm going for a more satirical angle.

ushiroace

One potentially interesting way to handle the hook for that concept would be to go for Poe's Law. Play it mostly straight with the idealistic hero, but occasionally have them do something so ridiculously naive/reckless that the audience isn't quite sure if they're supposed to be laughing or not. These scenes wouldn't be framed in a comedic tone. It would need to be a few, scattered moments early on that are noticeably absurd but you aren't being outright told by the game (ex. audio/visual cues) or the other characters (their reactions to the event) to think that its absurd. You're just left to dwell on it. In terms of pacing and hooking the audience I think this could work, though I have no idea how you'd market a game like this

DukeLeto7

Philosophical musing. Apart from the exact genre and lacking dialogue, the scenario sounds like what I understand "Shadow of the Colossus" to be. In other news, we have a bug reports problem, and it's hurting my fragile little mind. Basically, it appears that once in a blue moon, the Ch 4 Iterate common event called in the aftermath of the Erosian War doesn't set 2600: Research Available to on even though 3562: Research Blocked is off. Because Riala's research menu doesn't have a conditional handling both switches being off when there's no research project prepped, this locks the player out of setting a research priority. The first the time it happened the player had been save editing, so I assumed they had set 3562: Research Blocked off by hand and then lied about it or forgot doing it. I can't dismiss the recurrence though. I'm going to see if the bug recurs when reloaded from an earlier save. If it doesn't, then that means RPG Maker is getting up to something in terms of randomly messing with switch values or ignoring code instructions. If it does, I'll try to diagnose what's causing it. Either way, I'd advise modding Riala in the HQ basement so that there's a script at the start of her event that turns 2600: Research Available on if 3562: Research Blocked and all of the Prep switches are off. That should catch and handle the error in the future.

Decanter

I think in this Internet age you can let people spoil themselves a bit and they can still enjoy the story. Lots of people go into subversion games knowing the basic fact that it's not going to be a normal example of the genre, and either enjoying or able to deal with the part that plays it straight. Basically your solution 1 could go farther. People often don't go into a game with zero idea of what to expect, and if someone isn't sold on the idea then it's safe to tell them basics like "there is going to be a subversion here", even on the store page under a cut. How a person gets introduced to the game is part of the experience, thus you can leave the game itself unsullied by overly forced foreshadowing, keeping it feeling natural. I also think that splitting the audience is not always going to happen (at least beyond the basic truth that you can't please all of the people all of the time). You can play the straight parts straight without being mean-spirited or sarcastic about it, yet still subvert them in the end, and many people will respect the subversion if it makes sense and doesn't seem cheap. You have to do the parts that play it straight with genuine respect and care, and make both parts of the game actually good. I don't think the subversion itself is the problem, more that it's possible to do it wrong and come off like you're trying to send a message that playing things straight is bad and only bad people like it straight. Doki Doki Literature Club is a good example of what I'm talking about. Blind let's plays can be fun for both player and viewer, but lots of people went into the game knowing it was going to rugpull them in some way, and that didn't ruin it for them when it happened. It was also a pretty well-done example of its genre during the time it was still playing straight, not a completely braindead and insipid thing the author obviously couldn't wait to be done with - when the author doesn't care it can come thru in the work and make the player wonder why they care, but instead here it seems like a critical mass of people stayed invested long enough to reach the subversion rather than bouncing off.

Lord Forte Games

This is fair XD I think it came from the same basic sort of idea (wanting to turn an overdone, somewhat generic typical hero guy into a villain), I just tend to be a terminally serious person, haha.

FenyxSCPlayer

I know what you could do. How about taking turns between the hero and the villain? The villain could be the one you have described and maybe the Hero could be someone less jrpg-conventionally . Choices in-game could send you yo different endings ( i Will admit this is a lote more ambitious than your initial idea but i also like to bounce ideas from time to time)

Civil

I think you'd be surprised by the number of J-RPG games like Shrift, Rance, and others that successfully illustrate a moral relativistic preserver-to-destroyer trope while keeping a reasonable albeit young-adult audience. Imo, the trick for making it has been to let themed lewdness and artwork drive the story rather than the other way around. As is, I worry you are stuck in a Gordian knot of trying to sell adult level high-order thought lewdness to a robust and "extensive" adult audience that is fragmented and hard to reach since there aren't many universal draws. Either be true to your muse and accept a sub-optimal selling or be true to your needs and cater the product to an existing and cohesively reachable audience. The rest seems like happenstance.

Mycroft

I'm not sure if "the earnest hero" is what people are looking for. They just want a hero they can agree with. Earnest or not. Therefore, if the game put us in the vilain place, if we can agree with this vilain's point of view, most people will not see a problem. What I see as a risk is what I call the "vilain player dilema" : either you are not really a vilain, or the game become unhealthy. It's like in the movies : either the vilains act as the heros does (like suicide squad for exemple) or if the vilain really act as a vilain (Joker for exemple), we stop identifying with the character. Problem is, in a game,the main character is often someone we will need to relate, therefore, this second option is not really possible, and the third option is "agreeing with the vilains". In Joker case, for exemple, the people who did that where not the most healthy people, some of them even being truly toxic, which is not the fanbase any creator want to have.

sierralee

Please do check, as the ideal solution would be to figure out why 2600 isn't being set. While I could do the mod, since it's just a large series of nested conditionals, I'd be worried about this turning it back on unintentionally. Research that doesn't set a Prep switch, for example.

sierralee

Ah, but it's Poe's Law that I think would get me! I agree with you that it would probably be possible to strike a balance there that would work for some players, but I'm not sure that would "solve" the issue in the sense that there would always be a significant number of people who would assume the game was meant to be taken seriously.

Jens Mikli

I think you're describing most JRPGs nowadays with this plotline. Drakengard and Nier most obviously but by now even Dragon Quest has bitten the bullet on "hero is a political term," Not to mention this being the dominant trend in the fantasy genre that parodied DQ for a decade before that became true. If you're playing a game with an idealistic character who isn't being torn down by the end of the first act you're most likely playing a life sim that's about farming to run your little alchemy shop or pokemon.

Rachnera

It's quite possible I'm mixing several butchered memories from different books/games/shows into one. But I feel like I've seen somewhere a similar plot done with a mix of in medias res and "tomato surprise": Start in the present with a team of people doing terrible things Flashback to a team of nice people fighting evil Standard quest progression though with increasingly disturbing incidents The villains are defeated But the story continues And things get worse and worse Realization the characters we've seen at the very start are the ones we're currently playing And possibly an apocalyptic ending were the protagonists willingly unleash Armageddon to "reset" the world as they've lost all hope for this one. As for my own personal feeling on this kind of plot... Conflicted. I'm the first one to be taken aback by something like a "good" D&D party killing tenths of sentient beings (goblins, bandits, etc.) per session without a second though. But on the other hand I'm concerned following a party of (increasingly) horrible people through the full length of a game might be more gloom than fun.

sierralee

I may not have articulated myself clearly, because either I don't agree or I am missing out on a lot of games. Drakengard and Nier are both definitely darker than the default I'm describing here, but they're also both Cavia games, and I've always thought of those as being outside the JRPG mainstream. Which Dragon Quest are you describing? I've never played those very consistently. The game I was playing while originally writing this was Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I can't pretend to have played all JRPGs, but I feel like there are quite a few that have this same basic vibe.

sierralee

If you're remembering correctly, that sounds like a clear attempt at one of the exact potential methods I laid out. If you ever recall what it was, let me know!

WaxerRed

I liked reading your creative thoughts on JRPG, and seeing the picture of two elves sucking santa dick, in equal measure.

Nathan Phoenix

Hmmm this is a tricky one to write. The closest thing I can think of would be MuvLuv which spends a full game of the trilogy setting up the fake out. I think to even know how to pull this off you would have to nail down when or even IF the protagonist realizes his actions are evil.

Lord Forte Games

I have to agree with Sierra here that I think the overly idealistic vibes are still fairly common, although I think it's interesting that Xenoblade is your example when it's from the same writer as Xenosaga, which had a much more complex morality and realpolitik vibe to it. I have a friend who's incredibly bitter that Xenoblade has been so successful when Xenosaga isn't even being considered for remasters when Xenoblade feels so much shallower and childish. <.<; Not the only example I can think of that happening, though. Pokemon Coliseum was the most interesting pokemon game I've played, with a protagonist who was a defector from the local Evil Team... then it was followed up by XD: Gale of Darkness which was back to a boring no-depth kid, I will say, I think that there are a fair number that engage with both idealism and cynicism reasonably. The main thing that comes to mind here is the Legend of Heroes games (my personal favorite rpg series), mainly because I think it strikes an interesting balance of the whole power of bonds on one side and political realities on the other. Despite the combat system literally being based around bonds and friendship in the Trails of Cold Steel subseries, the main character ends up stuck as a politically propped up semi-false hero for a good 25% of the series. There's probably a reason it has the most people crossing the aisle from party members to bosses and back again of any series I know XD But I feel that this level of complexity is definitely the exception, not the rule.

Jens Mikli

Nier is square enix most popular single player game in the past decade so it's pretty mainstream now (this is shocking to everybody so you're not alone in your confusion). The big plot twist of the most recent dragon quest is that the hero gets told his the chosen one, summoned to the king to be given the quest to save the world, buttered up appropriately and promptly thrown in jail to be executed. Xenoblade is actually the other game I thought you might mean (I bounced on it hard because of the moege dialogue and so I guess I'm in the same boat on not being able to claim authority on describing what JRPG really like as a whole). I think what might be causing the confusion is that Xenoblade is pegi 12 and has the same intended audience as pokemon. DQ is Teen and Nier is 18+ but are both seen as more landmark titles in the genre (unfairly perhaps, pokemon sells more and is better known). I think more fertile ground for parody than what if the sanitized violence of JRPGs was treated as real is stuff like gacha games? They have the many of the same dynamics but even more abstracted away due to the cast list being a lottery.

Decanter

It's not necessary to relate to a character in order to be interested in the story. And it's not okay to condemn people for relating to a character, even if that character is a villain.

DukeLeto7

I wish I was more optimistic, but it does look to me like either RPG Maker is screwing with us or there's some obscure and bizarre interaction with one of the scripts. Oh well. Waiting for more save data from the reporter.

sierralee

Ah, you're referring to Nier: Automata, I believe. I only played the original, not that one. I had thought Automata was a hack and slash with light RPG elements, more akin to Devil May Cry than under the JRPG umbrella. That gets us into fundamental questions of genre and there are no boundaries worth dying over there, I'm just suspecting that we may be partially talking about different pools of games. I think I failed to get across what I'm imagining and the newest DQ may be a good example. What you described could be a nice twist, and it's definitely changing up the formula for DQ, but that doesn't strike me as shocking for a JRPG (getting thrown in prison is practically a rite of passage). Like, I would imagine that the hero only stays in prison a short time before old or new party members break him out, they discover the king is evil/ensorcelled/mistaken, then eventually defeat a Great Evil threatening the world. What I'm talking about is the king having a legitimate reason to suspect the hero, who then breaks out and murders the king as revenge, without any introspection. If the new DQ game does anything comparable to that... I need to go figure out which number is the newest, haha. I guess I haven't played enough gacha games to understand what you mean. I didn't think the format was very compatible with a real story.

sierralee

Another one I haven't played... so many games, so little time. T-T What's the big twist it waits so long to reveal? In my conception of this idea, it's essential that the protagonist never realizes his actions are evil. He might have a moment of doubt where he falls to his knees and cries very dramatically, but his friends would all rally around him and tell him that he needs to believe in himself, then he can go back to genociding the bad guys. The core of this idea for me is that the protagonist has an unshakable moral compass, and that compass is wrong.

Jens Mikli

Eh I haven't kept playing long enough to see but my money is on you being right about what happens. The general trend I'm pointing towards is that being an edgy outsider with (fake) moral ambiguity is currently *much* more popular in terms of protagonist in this genre than the default DQ formula. Also it feels like the entire isekai thing is built solely on pointing out this hypocrisy of how the rpg heroes have unfair advantages and are full of themselves with self righteousness. There are at least a 100 such stories which is why I'm not feeling particularly excited by the idea(I think Nier Replicant actually has the exact scene you're describing where Emil doubts if he did the wrong thing by nuking a city full of people alongside the "bad guys" and then gets a rousing speech about friendship to keep going).

Runcible Technician

That slow fall into villiany would be soooo easy for a jrpg hero to do. All you need are companions that have a reasonable argument, a fervent belief, and suddenly he's protecting an evil cult because of the power of friendship. Fluffy sidekick? evil demon under an illusion spell. Wise mentor? not so wise after all, also racist. Nevermind that moment that always happens in these games were someone dies and the hero goes all out for revenge. My recommendation? If you are doing a long arc villian plot, make that shit as funny as you can possibly make it. Go full Evil Dead and Army of Darkness. If the hero is going be stupid enough to swallow an argument like 'you gotta burn the town down to stop the disease' he should also be greedy and sort of an asshole so he fills that 'rogue' archetype instead of the 'insufferable idiot' archetype. Personal example in gaming: Jade Empire. The Open Palm 'good' way through the game is bog standard wuxia, i.e. protect the spirit world, defeat the evil emperor, ect. but the Closed Fist 'evil' way through the game is fucking hilarious in more than a few areas (make a deal with evil cannibals and tell the lord that sent you to find out what was happening in the woods that the staff of the inn would love to have him for dinner; make a bunch of evil choices so that when a propaganda crier is reading off your 'crimes' in the capital, they are all, in fact, actual crimes you did commit) Edit: In fact, the evil path in most every bioware game is good measure of how to do a 'villian' plot in a game. Edit 2: Unfortunately they have measured metrics of those games and its bedrock that only 20% of people play the evil route. 1/5 audience is a bummer statistic.

Mycroft

I'm not condemning people who relate to vilains, I notice that, in many case, people who do relate to some pop culture vilains (Joker, Thanos for exemple) belong to toxic comunity, like masculinist or MAGA. It's a correlation and not a causation, I agree, but it's enough to be cautious.

Runcible Technician

Curse of Strahd in D&D. It's pretty much the entire premise.

sierralee

Ah, haven't thought about Jade Empire in a while. That was a good time and it's too bad we never got a sequel.

Markus S.

I had played another game with a major plot twist before, the manly main protagonist was stripped by a certain power and had to realize that the protagonist was a born female. This gender change episode was the last to ever be released... unfortunate, the writing was really cool and the battle system entertaining enough. I can can see the difficulty to walk, making a twist which still targets a similar audience. That's what made early game industry so unique, since the concept of "target audience" did not exist. They made a game which they considered would be great, and everyone had to judge by themselves, though major twists would kinda have been mentioned in some review in a magazine. But then you'd have to release a considerable large game at once. Just my thoughts after reading your thoughts. ^-^

Dmitry F

I think this problem is pretty difficult to solve. I personally would never have made it past the prologue had I not been explicitly warned beforehand that the prologue was a joke. Far too many gaymes take those tropes seriously for me to have suspected otherwise. Ultimately of all of your ideas, I think in media res is likely the one that would have the highest likelihood of a potential me not bouncing immediately assuming it made clear there is definitely more than meets the eye. I personally would prefer blunting of the arc to villainy through communicating to me that it is not played straight over never playing a game with clever subversion.

DukeLeto7

OK, bug diagnosed. The problem was that I'm DUMB. (Big surprise.) The dialogue tree for Riala's research menu only displays a message explaining research is blocked during the Erosian War aftermath if 3562: Research Blocked is ON. Problem with that is that 3562: Research Blocked is set OFF by the first Ch 4 Iterate event after it gets set on. This Ch 4 Iterate event gets fired immediately after the the switch is turned on but before the player can interact with Riala. Somehow I got so caught up in the belief that since the dialogue tree in the research menu assumed that 3562: Research Blocked being ON was a valid game state, that it must be true. The two bug reporters had both come through with 19 Tower Front and failed to register their research was blocked when Iris told them, so didn't understand why Riala was locking them out of the Research menu. Presumably most players optimize to allow themselves research, or the margin of min/maxing miscalculation for people trying to squeeze out 20 is exactly 1. So what needs to happen is that Riala's Research dialogue trees on pages 3 and 4 of Headquarters B1 (007,021) need to be modified as follows: * Each of the project specific or End of Available Research periods messages needs to have Exit Event Processing added to it. * The message currently associated with 3562: Research Blocked == ON needs to be moved to the end of these conditionals and associated with 2600 Research Available == OFF, so it only happens if none of the other messages obtain and research is unavailable, which should just be Erosian War aftermath with Research having been blocked or some point in Ch5 before the 1st Ch5 Iterate, if applicable. Hope that makes sense. Now I need to go apologize to the dude I falsely accused of save editing several months back.

Lord Forte Games

MuvLuv is a VN series. The first game, MuvLuv Extra, is a somewhat over-the-top typical high school dating sim type with two main routes plus some side routes. The protagonist is especially good at a mecha game. Spoilers below: The second volume, MuvLuv Unlimited, the protagonist finds himself pulled into a parallel universe where earth has been invaded by relentless aliens called the BETA. The version of him in that universe died years ago, and his closest friend (one of the main heroines from the first game) doesn't seem to have ever existed. The other heroines are in-training mecha pilots. The second game basically covers their training and is also more of a dating sim than anything, because regardless of who you go with, you never actually reach the war (instead, humanity gives up and leaves earth). The third one, MuvLuv Alternative, is the pretty "famous one" since in this version he somehow arrives at the starting point of the second game again, with full knowledge of the second game (except seemingly having chosen none of the heroines. This time, the goal is actually defeat the BETA, so it goes from dating sim to pretty grimdark war story full of character death. You can read its steam page if you want to see how highly it thinks of itself :X That being said, it's not a bad story, and I think it can be worth playing, but I found it was just above average, not nearly as great as it sells itself as being.

Darthjake

Sort of reminds me of our Call of Cthulu rpg, you start off as fearless and upright monster hunters, and slowly turn into insane monsters through the shattering of the characters sanity by fighting against these eldritch horrors.

sierralee

Yup, I think I get that. I don't want to rigorously test this, so I'm going to implement the latter solution and trust all is well. Appreciate you looking into it!

Dark Art

Not sure if this will be applicable, but we have a very old folk story that might be of some use. Not JRPG, but not completely different idea altogether. A man who was captured by an enemy state as a young man, partially brainwashed and after some years in captivity, cut loose with a group of cutthroats to terrorize his homeland. To cut the long story short, the man goes through very lengthy path of trying to figure out what and who he is. The whole story is rather grey on morality, very heavy on trying to find peace with captor's god and the old gods of the past (basically trying to marry up the present with the past (remembered and rediscovered) and stay at least somewhat sane) and culture clash of very different moralities - what is a heroic deed, who decides and can a hero do something downright horrible and still be a hero. I am oversimplifying of course, but this is the gist of it. Hope this helps.

Lord Forte Games

Oh, one other thought on this topic. One of my favorite rpg series from the GBA era actually edged surprisingly close to the topic, albeit in a somewhat more serious than satirical way. Just thought I'd mention it since you might enjoy the series in general, and it is one of the closer things to this idea I've seen done. The series is called Golden Sun. In the first game, the initial protagonist is from Vale, one of the few places in the world left that can use magic in a world mostly without it. Vale stands before Sol Sanctum, which is basically a vault for great treasures called the Elemental Stars. Vale gets attacked by a group of magic users who steal the elemental stars and kidnap several people from the village, intending to use them to light four Elemental Lighthouses across the world. However, you end up being able to grab one of the four stars during the attack and keep it. The Wise One, Sol Sanctum's guardian, tells you that the lighthouses being lit will destroy the world and sends you off to stop them. -Spoilers Below- At the end of the first game, you succeed in killing the two leaders of the group that attacked Vale, though not before they light a second lighthouse. However... the people they kidnapped, plus several others they picked up along the way, escape instead of allowing themselves to be saved. Then, the second game picks up with that group, revealing that, though they used harsh methods, the antagonists from the first game are actually the ones trying to save the world. Without magic, the world is literally eroding away from the edges (which have almost reached the home of the fire clan that attacked Vale), and the Wise One would rather see that happen than the dangers of magic restored. Having decided to take up the quest to light the remaining two lighthouses, the part of kidnapped people ends up in opposition to the party of the first game. They do eventually reconcile and all decide to -actually- save the world, but it was still, in my opinion, an excellently done twist and a very good case of blindly trying to be heroic unwittingly leading you to have been playing the villain.

DukeLeto7

I'll make it a point to test in the next update.

sierralee

I played both Golden Suns as a kid actually! All that's kept me from going back to them at some point is the fact that you can't change the text speed or noise.

Lord Forte Games

Oh cool XD Yeah, lack of QoL on old games is sadly quite a bit of a barrier to (re)playing them. Definitely had some of the best rpg puzzle design I've encountered, though. I was sad that Dark Dawn wasn't as good as the GBA two and seems to have been the end of the franchise.

Nathan Phoenix

To add. The first 1 and 1/2 games are very light hearted (with the exception of boobs). So when in the 3rd game, your character turns around to find his friend's brains leaking out of an aliens mouth its effectively shocking. Also he spends the next chapter suffering ptsd and unable to fight.

Nathan Phoenix

So I see this going one of 3 ways. 1 The Syndrome path where the villain wants to be a hero so he does good things but puts everyone in danger doing it. 2 the Overly Cautious Hero path where the hero is so determined to stop evil that he nukes the town he was hired to protect. 3 The Rance path where the hero does terrible things all the time but nobody calls him out on it so he just thinks he is a good guy. In all three cases it basically works as a sarcastic humor to keep the plot interesting. The only warning I would give is dont do the Overlord thing where the "hero" thinks "geee I just did a bad thing but I don't feel bad about it" because that's just an annoying hand-wave of an excuse.

DuckTogo

Pretty braindead suggestion on my part: But having the party initially confront or cooperate with a party that is already essentially villainous despite their lofty ideals might successfully communicate that you are aware of the tropes. If the story then slowly veers towards this conclusion for the protagonists, then hopefully people tired of the trope will pick up on these signs and others might be surprised or realize that the party they met in the beginning was foreshadowing. I guess my suggestion is just: use foreshadowing.

DuckTogo

Thanks for reminding me of those games. I hope they get a remaster someday. Though I would hope that the remaster has a light touch and only works on QoL stuff.