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Episode 193 - Who Suffers for Free Speech? (Patreon)

Published:
2022-07-18 08:40:24
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

After the online debate a couple of weeks ago between friend of the show Olayemi Olurin & Brie's rising co-hosts Kim Iversen & Robby Soave, Brie wondered if it were possible to have a different kind of conversation if 1) it were longer form, and 2) it included a Trans leftist. This episode is the result of that experiment. Kim Iversen joins union organizer Esperanza to discuss the viral Rising segment and whether there is such a thing as a legitimate speech concern when the already vulnerable trans community stands to bear the brunt of the consequences. They also discussed the viral colloquy between Berkeley Professor Khiara Bridges & Senator Josh Hawley last week. Should the left be concerned about the "comms" effects of these viral moments and workshop responses designed to make the fight for LGBTQ equality more accessible? Or is it not worth trying to win arguments with bad faith actors like Hawley?

Subscribe to Bad Faith on YouTube to access our full video library. Find Bad Faith on Twitter (@badfaithpod) and Instagram (@badfaithpod).

Produced by Armand Aviram.

Theme by Nick Thorburn (@nickfromislands)

Comments

pnworchard

jesus she was so frustrating trying to make the perfect the enemy of the good the entire episode

Anonymous

Trans issues are a troyan horse to a fascist state. And they is a useful idiot

Anonymous

Oh man. The absolute state of Kim Iversen on this episode. Ofc claiming to be socially and economically on the Left except when you actually look her opinions and what she says. Incredible stuff, classic Rightwing tactics. Luckily she was called out for it. But Brie, what are doing having this nitwit on the podcast?

Anonymous
>>87974823

I mean she literally trotted out that position about how changing capitalism wouldn’t fix racism from HRC’s 2016 campaign. Incredible stuff.

Anonymous

Briahna—While it may be true that the black civil rights movement needed the help of racist white people to succeed. And the women’s rights movement needed the help of misogynistic men to succeed. Is that really who you want to be in the context of the trans rights movement? You gesture to the fact that you realize you are not properly equipped to tackle this issue. Please recognize that feeling and just stop. Just stop. And I don’t know who that Kim woman was but you do not need to have her on your show anymore. Esperanza was great. Her patience with the two of you was what my father would have called “above and beyond”. The next time you ask her a question, I recommend you heed her response. You might learn something.

Anonymous
>>87974823

Been thinking more about this episode and I think Kim is just a straight up run of the mill conservative. Ok she says she supports MFA but other than she sounds like a social conservative and I heard no economic liberalism from her. I learnt nothing for her except I worry about the decision to invite her on the podcast, I mean you work together how did you not notice what she was like? Worst guest ever. At least Talia’s exit was funny.

Anonymous
>>87974823

This episode was a total slog. Closest I’ve come to quitting on an episode. Kim was dire on this episode constantly interrupting and disrupting the conversation. Brie didn’t really seem to be listening to both guests, spent most of her time translating what Kim was saying to give her the benefit of the doubt - poor decisions.

Eric

I’m finding these conversations less and less valuable. Peterson was not banned, he was suspended, and it was not merely for deadnaming. Without acknowledging the truth of the situation a productive conversation can’t happen. Plus, Kim’s point that we need to appease violent reactionaries in order to achieve trans rights was just nonsensical and ahistorical, which I can’t believe Bri didn’t point out. Trans people don’t face violence because some are annoying online. Come on, that is not a serious thing to say.

Eric
>>87974823

She’s an anti vax conspiracy theorist. Take a little scroll through her twitter feed. I can’t for the life of my understand what I was supposed to find useful or insightful from having her on.

Anonymous
>>88026928

Also, if you want to have a discussion about the 1st Amendment, maybe have a guest who is a constitutional scholar. Isn’t that kind your wheelhouse anyway? You clearly wanted to have a “free speech” discussion but you brought in a trans rights advocate and then acted shocked, SHOCKED, that she wanted to talk about trans rights instead of free speech. And why do we care what this Kim woman thinks about 1st Amendment implications with regards to Twitter? Does she have some level of expertise in that area? Is she an informed voice on this subject? Does she have anything intelligent to say about anything at all? Granted, I’ve only heard her on your show (and the brief clip you played from that other show) but I hear no evidence that she has any level of factual insight into the workings of the 1st Amendment. If I want to hear this level of discourse, I’ll go to a bar.

Anonymous

I can't believe Brianna didn't call out all of Kim's argument for free speech but better policing when we know there is a huge distrust between minority communities such and Trans and Black communities and the police, FBI, CIA, etc. And the most obvious example is look at what happened to Uvalde and Buffalo, where the shooters posted major red flags, and the FBI and police didn't do anything to prevent death of innocent people. In anything, freedom of hate speech/replacement theory is what spurred buffalo. And Kim, no the trans community does not need you and your transmisogynist self to support the movement. The Civil rights movement did not need the support of the KKK, Stonewall rioters did not need the support of homophobes.

Anonymous

Esperanza has an extremely valid point that too often people with big platforms opine on issues that they really don't have a basic understanding of. The fact that Kim did not know what a TERF is ludicrous. I love me some Bree but when she excuses this lack of research as a function of just having just 7 minutes to speak on issues she should take this a flaw of the format. If this were some other issue/context Bree would have explored how this flaw could be improved.

Babbaboosh
>>88088433

Honestly, I watched that exchange pretty closely and the wayyyyy K.I asked the question felt... bad faith but alsoooo like a power play type thing that I've seen conservative media reps do on other issues. I still believe in my soul that she knew what TERF meant; it was some type of trap-power question levied at Esperanza and it reminded me a lot - frankly - of that exchange with Hawley where he deliberately affects a type of technical ignorance in order to... idk pin the opposition to a place where it can be dissected and digested?!? Make the opposition trip? Idk I just saw it and immediately thought "I know that power-play'. And it didn't make me super trustful of K.I or anything she said from then on. And again - I don't know why an ally would be using opposition tactics on another ally. At best that seems like friendly fire.

Anonymous
>>88084072

You seem to identify the issue that the police don’t actually care about any of us. We can continue to yell at them to take more and more freedom in order for a magical wish to be granted so that this time will be different, this time they will stop the bad thing. I feel you however what I’m witnessing is that if we hand over more freedom nothing changes except we lose that freedom and if their budget is cut, maybe the city’s ability to perform policing is held hostage. I see the right talking about how the left has taken over everything which I find ridiculous but what appears to be the case is that we have lost so much and for so long we don’t really know what it is to win anything anymore. The last big policy win was a republican healthcare plan, the electoral victory was for one of the most racist senators in my memory to become president largely on Obama’s name. I volunteered for Obama at a remote office making calls and the other volunteers all laughed about him picking Biden to fool the racists into being okay with him. Sure it was all a bit of edgy chat but there was a large number of people who believed that the moment he was selected and it was based on his long history of words and actions. So yes I think the left has lost to the point where we will accept anything handed to us. It doesn’t matter what integrity was sacrificed nor what comprises were made. I think it’s left people bitter and angry. Your exchange about Kim for example, Kim who is really a good person in the purest sense of the word even if you have a different idea of how to handle a policy. There’s a race to smear people as hateful without the self reflection or awareness to question “am I being driven by hate right now”. It’s really important to understand our own hate and doubly so right now. This is a time of large conscious shift and I’m talking to older friends gay and lesbians who are not political and they’re feeling this same baseline, elevated hate and I’ve been told they feel this energy is being taken from them and weaponized in bad faith. Pair that with the members of the community coming out against a lot of the current events and their willingness to be associated with any of it. As if the left hasn’t lost enough already, I’ll be honest, I fear we’re heading for a reckoning unlike anything I’ve seen in my lifetime. It makes me angry too because I feel we’re handing over lost ground for nothing except it wasn’t for nothing. Backing that rotten old racist really took a peace of our energy and replaced it with fear and hate. It didn’t help he’s basically running around with dementia leading us into WW3. I wish we’d at least made some type of progress but as I read your message it made me think not only have we had such a heavy cost but we’re literally asking to give away more freedoms with no evidence it’ll make a positive difference but in reality it’ll just make things worse. Good luck to us and if you replace whatever was elevating your anger and find some peace or joy maybe you could share it with us here. Have a good weekend.

Duborah Oya

I disagree with CIS to ID me as a woman. I disagree that children should have blockers and those decisions should be made when they are adults. Finally, Women sports are always in danger, and a Trans Woman should not be allowed to crush all the work of Woman Sports for their win. Thus, their incursion to define Woman is offensive when it's insisted they have the power to tell Women who they are, CIS is one example.

Anonymous

Also, really disappointed that Brie acted like Esperanza wasn’t answering the question. She did every single time. She said democratize and anti-trust laws these tech corporations. Don’t give up TOS, expand it. Also Finkelstein didn’t comment on a Nazi using a publishing platform to attack a *specific* person. I also want to add, from what I heard on The Rising clip. Peterson wasn’t banned for just deadnaming, he deadnamed on purpose. I’m sure lots of articles and tweets can be found simply referring to the name Eliot used to have. It’s not ideal, but it’s not violent. What Peterson did was violent, in the sociological sense- yes.

Anonymous
>>88164640

I mean you can disagree, but Trans people will always exist. How does that factor into your understanding of the world?

Anonymous

Also just generally if it’s a numbers game, Brie you spend a lot of time thinking about how to help right wingers “get it”. Why not spend some time on helping liberals “get it” too? If they already have “identity” but not class, seems a better strategy than getting right wingers who have neither. ALSO Kim Iverson not fundamentally understanding that racism comes from capitalism, is a huge problem. Where are the lessons from The Sum of Us?

Anonymous

please talk to Rayvn Wngz