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Episode 214 - DemExit? (Patreon)

Published:
2022-09-29 13:33:03
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Brie speaks to Sabrina Salvati, Nick Cruse, & Compton Jay of the Revolutionary Blackout Network about their discontent with electoral politics, and specific concerns about whether more affluent members of the left media sphere are too credulous about the possibility of success via the "inside game." Is there critique fair? Is investing in electoralism at all a waste? This panel holds nothing back. It' a good one.

Subscribe to Bad Faith on YouTube to access our full video library. Find Bad Faith on Twitter (@badfaithpod) and Instagram (@badfaithpod).

Produced by Armand Aviram.

Theme by Nick Thorburn (@nickfromislands)

Comments

Anonymous

Great show, but why is Brie acting like Sirota doesnt' tell people to vote Dem when she knows he calls people who don't "nihilists." He has also said on another stream that people who vote party are "incinerating their votes. This is toxic and wrong. And his journalism is neither vital nor impactful. He just uses it to remind us Dems are still better than GOP and we should vote for them

Anonymous

I have some issues with this episode. 1. Forcing the vote IS ALSO a reformist strategy. Both sides of the argument are reformist, the issue is on parliamentarian maneuvering. Honestly so are all strategies of running in bourgeoisie elections. 2. This is not a class analysis. Income and education level does not equal class. There are only two classes, the working class and the bourgeoisie. If you work for a wage you are working class. If you make money from the labor of others you are a capitalist. There are some nuances within the class structure, such as the petty bourgeoisie, people who own the means of production but must also work to survive or the labor aristocracy, wealthier workers who buy into the system because of their comfortable status. The "PMC", at best just members of the labor aristocracy, and the lumpenproletariat are members of the working class. 3. Who are you referring to? Most of the left is NOT in favor of staying in the democratic party or taking it over, they just have a different strategy on how to break from the party. Imma be real, I'm pro force the vote as a strategy, but I don't agree with RBN on there strategy on electoralism, though I still see them as comrades and they're 100% right on the money with Marianne, Fetterman, and other progressives on foreign policy for the most part.

Anonymous

I'm surprised at the tenor of comments here. I am a long-time RBN fan, and I am glad Brie is platforming them. I want their fearless, unvarnished message out in the world.

Anonymous
>>92608016

Yes. Sirota has carried water for The Squad many times on Brie's podcast (and elsewhere).

Rashida Islam

I'm not able to respond to Liska Ostojic's comment directly. So I'll add another comment here. A. No one is arguing that the Dems are rotten. And I never said the Dems were great with current and previous leaderships. My central point is about the axis of power. Maybe look at how power dynamics operate and why people subscribe to the current system - despite how broken it is. B. Read my comment again. I said electoralism, trade unionism and campaigning do not exist in isolation - if you only want to focus on one arm, do it. But one arm alone is not enough. Screaming about how rotten the DP is... is insufficient. These complaints will not move the masses until you give them something to move towards to - that's where trade unionism and campaigning can play an important role. So let's look at the UK (where I am from). Similar arguments about the bankruptcy of the Democrat party can be applied to the Labour party; the LP is to the left of the Tories. The current leadership has up until recently refused to challenge the govt on anything - be it the pandemic, cost of living and the war in Ukraine. In fact, it's attacked the govt from the right on key issues such as pushing for schools to be opened prematurely, abstained on free school meals for schoolkids and sacked a shadow cabinet member for supporting strikes. It was only thanks to a trade union - the RMT - organising strikes in response to the cost of living crisis and threading the two together that: 1. moved the majority of the country into supporting these strikes 2. prompted other trade unions to strike/ballot members 3. forced a leadership change within the govt 4. may have precipitated a pending collapse in the current govt. Because of the rapturous public support for the RMT, the labour leadership has been forced to tack left (even if many of its proposals are fake) on taxing the rich, focusing on renewable energies etc. The principle of third parties is moot here as the parties that matter/have a decent shot at winning are either the Tories or the LP. LP leadership is hellbent on driving out left forces from party - suspended a female Jewish and pro-palestine National Executive Member for unknown reasons as well as suspending another member for speaking out against the war in Ukraine and NATO at LP conference this week. Whilst this has successfully demoralised others to leave the party, remaining members such as myself continue to work to advance better politics inside the LP as it's the parliamentary vehicle that matters. Had the previous leadership stayed on then we would have seen stronger links forged between the LP and the trade union movement and more concessions extracted from the govt if not an outright collapse. But we are where we are. I understand why RBN finds the DP intolerable. I also share their concerns about a number of progressives who are incredibly weak on foreign policy. But I simply do not agree with their analysis that people must be discouraged from voting for the DP. Unless a better alternative is given, the power lies between two parties. The current terrain inside British and American politics is not great for progressives but it's one part of the arsenal. So to disengage from it is to weaken yourself overall.

Anonymous

Kinda surprised at the number of Dem Defenders here. You've been screwed seven ways to Sunday by Just'Us Dems, the Me-First Squad, on and on. But you STILL cannot imagine a world where the Dems aren't the Good Guys/L2E. There's a lot of codependent PMCs here who may be struggling, but are essentially okay with the status quo. Why do they want to continue to waste time and money on the Dems? "Cuz we have no choice! Vote harder!" Is not an answer, it's an admission of defeat. Nick is CORRECT. Those who continue to vote Dem are the TRUE nihilists. To pick out one or two instances where CJ or Nick may have stated something incorrectly, somehow gives you permission to erase everything else they are saying here. You are looking for a reason to attack them. Think outside the box and de-colonize your mind. The US is a "developing country" according to the UN. There are areas in the south that have Third World country conditions. Sewage running in their yards. Children with hookworm. Lead in water. Most Americans do NOT vote. But RBN criticizing David Sirota and Marianne Williams is the REAL outrage to some people here. 🙄

Anonymous

It seems like many of the commenters here didn't really listen to what RBN is ultimately saying. People focusing on protecting Sirota and Marianne, and ignoring the real message. CJ said he would be energized to support AOC - the Twitter/Instagram Super-celeb who is useless in Congress - IF she would use her followers to organize a General Strike. Or CJ talking about the trauma his family has been thru. Or Sabby explaining how she grew up middle class and the housing crisis affected her. Or when Nick said he had to lose work hours to vote, and that would never happen again, cuz it's not worth it. Appears all the other things that were discussed were unimportant compared to poor David & Marianne's honor being besmirched. Try listening to this hour again, and ignore the triggering parts. You might just walk away with a new perspective. Or at least a better understanding of where they're coming from. Peace.

Anonymous
>>92636365

On the free truncated version on YT, the comments are mostly favorable to RBN.

Cameron Plath

Like yeah there’s a contradiction showing itself with ppl, Sirota and the like, but it doesn’t need to be so antagonistic as it’s made out to be, especially since it’s a contradiction of class but within the broad left/socdem. Much better use of energy for us to be working out these mostly non antagonistic contradictions rather than the recent “MAGA Communism” bullshit where the contradiction is much more if not absolutely antagonistic due to the types of views the far right holds.

C. Ries
>>92611863

The idea of a third party is still electoralism, it’s not radical at all. You are entirely right— at least Sabrina did mention a coordinated general strike among supply chain workers

Anonymous

Who is David serota

Chris Lovings

One of the better episodes, really enjoyed it!

Jon

God this online shit is annoying. Grow up

Jon
>>92821968

Like listen to the last Cornell West episode and compare the attitude here…

Anonymous

There are definitely valid critiques of strategy and of people on here. I do think there is a point in which you either divorce yourself from someone because you are not aligned on a multitude of issues. This is why I agree that voting D, insider politics, is no longer something I support because there’s too many disagreements. I do think that’s different than people from cross political parties finding common ground and voting on an issue together where there is some agreement. This is where I feel like RBN is pursuing a purity politics. Purity politics will leave you destabilized. As I said not voting D isn’t even necessarily about not liking the individual candidate but rather the whole party system and what it eventually does to people within it. Working class people by virtue aren’t going to align as leftists on everything. What if the perfect working class person rose up… all the right politics on unions, healthcare, trade, antiinterventionist, etc but was religious and against trans rights? The left would throw them under the bus when a moderate liberal who is pro-trans rights but not for all those other things that actually are the core of leftist politics (because you can be a Republican and support LGBT issues, for example) is because the left and liberals are too focused on social-cultural and identity issues. Because I would argue that most of che people identifying as leftists or cosplaying as leftists are not from working class backgrounds, radicalized in college mostly around issues of race gender and sexuality. So at the end they would rage against theft hypothetical candidate as a bigot unworthy of support becsuse their material needs are unaffected. Yes those perspectives matter no doubt, and I think it is worth pursuing changing that hypothetical candidates mind around how they view a certain group and elect them in for the sake of the rest of the stuff, rather than throwing them out as a tarnished bigot. I get that some people will break with that, that’s your right. But it also speaks to a broader sentiment about purity politics that if you don’t align with me 100%, you’re the enemy.

zombie

personal beef masquerading as working class politics lol. hate to see it

Jared
>>92613758

maybe ask them not to say dumb things about people who platform them

Jared
>>92611863

"If you work for a wage you are working class. If you make money from the labor of others you are a capitalist." This is close to being perfect, but the first half is too narrow and would exclude someone whose only income is making lemonade and selling it on the street. Otherwise, you have the right idea.

Jared
>>92663767

Funny, your comment is the epitome of class antagonism, whereas maga communism is about uniting the 99% against the 1%.

Jared
>>92866312

100% you nailed it. Actually the first I have seen to do so.

Cameron Plath
>>92663767

Lol that’s what I said Jared. That there’s more of an antagonism with maga views for obvious reasons, and an antagonism which is not the result of class contradiction, but reactionary vs non reactionary conclusions. Maga communism isn’t converting reactionaries into marxists, it’s attempting to corral a reactionary force bc you watched how easily Trump did it with them, which is very opportunistic to use another bit of jargon lol. Enemy-of-my-enemy strategy hasn’t really worked out great for the left if we look back through history. So yeah I agree with exposing fellow regular/moderate-conservative workers to Marx’s ideas, but what’s with this attempt to reach so far to the right other than them being more easily manipulated? Wouldn’t it be a more efficient use of energy to work left to right until we run up against and stop with fascist QAnon freaks?