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Episode 270 - Foregone Illusion: Part 2 (w/ Kshama Sawant) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-04-27 11:33:44
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2026-06
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Content

In part two of this two-part episode, Briahna and Kshama Sawant parse AOC's recent interview with David Sirota at The Lever and analyze her explanation for voting to crush the rail workers strike. They also continue their debate about what litmus test presidential candidates must pass to secure primary votes from progressives. Is Bernie the floor?

Listen to Part 1 here. 

Subscribe to Bad Faith on YouTube for video of this episode. Find Bad Faith on Twitter (@badfaithpod) and Instagram (@badfaithpod).

Produced by Armand Aviram.

Theme by Nick Thorburn (@nickfromislands).

Comments

Anonymous

The YouTube video for this segment is titled "What's the Litmus Test for Left Presidential Candidates?" The (bare-bones minimum) litmus test for "the left" is anti-capitalism, no?

Anonymous

Kshama is really dedicated to letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here, huh?

Anonymous
>>107279056

Not a fan of “litmus tests” per se. But your suggestion is the best I’ve heard! Anti-capitalism and all the other anti’s and pro’s that necessarily flow from there!

Anonymous
>>107279535

Respectfully, I’d say that another way: because Sawant has achieved several astonishing victories, leading to SIGNIFICANTLY improved conditions for working, struggling folks (against MASSIVE resistance including local Billionaires and their servant Dem Electeds) , SAWANT has learned what NOT to do as well as what TO do. What BJG is suggesting Sawant considers a what NOT to do. When someone —anyone—comes anywhere CLOSE to achieving what Sawant and SA have achieved for WORKING STRUGGLING people, their ideas may be worth the same weight as Kshama’s. “The perfect being an enemy of the good” in my experience, is often used as a substitute for advancing lesser evilism.

Mathieu Dube

Thank you. These are great conversations. Sawant isn’t looking for excuses for the left’s failure and cowering to the Dems. It’s refreshing. I’m not a journalist or a podcaster. Just a worker and I can’t stand the Dems and their simps on the left.

Anonymous

Props to Sawant. I would follow her lead in this fight any day. She has not wavered since I first heard about her.

Anonymous
>>107279535

Well said. Sawant has achieved much, so perhaps we should listen to her strategies.

Anonymous

Beyond everything good Kshama Sawant says here, it's important to remember that SALT practices democratic centralism, meaning that even if she has a particular personal opinion, she's always going to stick to the agreed party line (not that that is a bad thing).

Anonymous
>>107296944

I can assure you, Sawant will NOT put party—any party or org— over people and polices. And certainly, NOT over her own principles. (As we saw with Sawant’s reactions to DSA betrayals!) All one has to do is examine her record and the cost of her actions to her personally and politically. She never came close to wavering. Quite the contrary. Most here likely are aware that Sawant gives away every cent of her Seattle City Council Member salary to activities CONSISTENT with her Socialist principles (as in the money is out of her hands) except for the amount an average worker makes in the City of Seattle. If that’s not walking one’s talk, I don’t know what is! And she has done so for each of the nine years she was been a council member.

Anonymous
>>107279535

I agree that Sawant is incredibly accomplished and wise in this area! I just can’t quite follow how this a lesser-evil situation. It only becomes that if your endorsement is a hard binary rather than a nuanced and caveated message… I just agree with BJG that this doesn’t feel like a situation where it has to be a binary, as Sawant insists. I’m totally open to the fact that I’m likely wrong! It just really feels arbitrary and feels out of place in a sea of things Sawant says that seem totally reasonable…and when BJG pushes Ksashama on it, she tends to flood the zone a bit, implying some rhetorical discomfort there. I really only posted this comment because I’m normally in strong agreement with Sawant and this one stuck out (shrug)

Anonymous
>>107296944

I meant she sticks to the agreed SALT line, in alignment with the principles of democratic centralism (which I agree with). I didn't mean it in any negative way. She's a stellar person in a stellar party, start to end.

Fahim Everyone's Dream

Tonight’s Callin episode should be titled “Word Salad with Excruciating Dressing”.🤣🤣🤣

Anonymous

Great job Brianna, excellent conversations always. I’ve got to say something that’s been bugging me since i listened to AOC & Sirota; he made a big fuss of making it clear that the questions were from subscribers not himself, which made me suspicious straight away that he was too frightened or intimidated or insecure, or just a too shy fanboy, to actually hold her feet to the fire. Needless to say that after AOC had delivered her masterclass in polite, giggling evasion, with the “word salad” - albeit a salad with wilting leaves and a slug inside - he did not ONCE push back against her non-answers. It was on to the next “these are not mine they’re from subscribers pleasethankyou” question. He allowed her to get away with non-answers. An interview which could’ve been so much more ended up as a bit … “meh”. And infuriating. Which is probably why she chose Sirota and hadn’t shown up on any lefty media such as yours since …. she wanted the votes in her election. I am a Dual National passport holder - U.S. & U.K. - and i can vote in both countries’ elections. Just as i’m never voting for the corporate, (conservative in any other democracy) Dems, i won’t be voting for Kier Starmer’s Labour (in name only) Party in the U.K. where i currently work and reside. The establishment parties, blue and red halves of the neoliberal capitalist political class, are dead ends for working class agendas.

badfaithpodcast
>>107279535

"do nothing" isn't a strategy. This is not a zero sum game. Casting a vote in a democratic primary precludes nothing.

Anonymous
>>107279535

I believe Kshama’s point is that her or SA suggesting folks cast a vote in a dem primary (where there is no candidate with a proven track record on worker/struggling issues AND a proven track record of criticizing their own preferred party the SAME WAY they criticize the “other” party) would imply something they do not wish to imply. Perhaps she believes there is too much risk of folks thinking /conflating she /SA are endorsing the candidate and NOT simply endorsing the ‘ONLY vote for them in the primary and NOT the general even if they become the nominee’ strategy? All would have been clearer, I believe, had Kshama noted to the effect that ‘we made an exception and endorsed Sanders after decades of his saying these pro-worker things and openly calling himself a socialist. We/SA believed, as did so many, that Sanders would walk his talk. And like so many, we got it wrong TWICE because Sanders sheepdogged for the neoliberal nominee. Therefore, no more making exceptions’. I’ll be voting in the primary because I love voting (whether it counts or not) ! :-)

Anonymous
>>107306250

Astute observations. Indeed, there did appear to be some “triangulating”/distancing between Sirota and the questions ‘he was asked to put’. That neatly explains why AOC shifted to blaming voters/constituents for their ‘unmerited disproval’/anger at betrayals. It may have seemed to her that Sirota invited that deflection as it was one he agreed with himself. Dems really have embraced the voters OWE politicians their votes; politicians do not have to EARN votes notion since 44. Cheers!

Anonymous
>>107279535

Is not participating in duopoly politics automatically "doing nothing"? That seems like a false binary.

Anonymous
>>107306250

what wasn't said, but what I heard was Jimmy Dore made money off the force-the-vote.

Anonymous

Brie, anyone who has listened to your podcasts over these many years, and has eyes & ears, and they STILL plan on voting for Biden... they're the REAL Doomer Regressives. They are the people who have given up. Biden is obviously NOT making decisions. He's a prop, and his Caregivers are spoiled DANGEROUS Bullies & Babies. They'll kill everyone in Ukraine, destroy Europe & the USA's economies, destroy the dollar, on & on. The person voting for Biden is an accomplice to this destruction. Biden voters who listen to you, Brie, KNOW what Biden & Dems are doing, and they APPROVE of them. They are voting for everything to get WORSE. There is no such thing as Lesser of 2 Evils anymore. BOTH Teams are evil. Biden voters are like sheep who PAY the butcher to slowly disembowel them. Period.

Anonymous
>>107338924

Which is bullshit. Jimmy, Brie, and everyone else who supported FTV, were arguing for the correct strategy. There's a whole category of the NATO Left online channels who made bank over supporting Bernie, AOC & the Squad. Kyle Kulinski is one of them. Now, he shills HARD for whoever Krystal tells him to. Jimmy represents the post-duopoly Left. AOC is a fraud and an Instagram star with a merch store. She doesn't give a flying fuck about anything but her shallow followers & her own enrichment. She's Nancy junior.

Anonymous
>>107306250

Yeah, that’s a standard response to anyone who is critical of AOC (& any Dems for that matter) - “They’re only in it for money/clicks/subscriptions yada yada yada”. It’s a bad faith ad hominem attack as a way of deflecting. I mean, so what? Are people like Dore (and others) supposed to do all their research and broadcasting for free? AOC gets paid too, she should also be accused/asked if she’s “in it for the money”.

Adam Brosnan

I agree with Kshama, and while MW seems promising, she is still part of the liberal class and I struggle to believe, if she runs in a dem primary, I really struggle to believe she will leverage her theoretical power. I say theoretical, because she doesn't have any at the moment, but I think if she gains that, she will bend the knee and maybe try get consessions.

Anonymous
>>107296944

Yeah she’s also been quite earnest about why SA uses democratic centralism on BT before. It’s a huge part of the organizational and political difference between SA and the DSA, especially regarding accountability of leadership and these squad figures, and is why Kshama’s office has been able to have such an effect in Seattle and why WSB is going to kick ass >:)

Anonymous
>>107360205

She WILL bend the knee. She's also PRO WAR. That alone knocks her out! Kennedy actually disagrees with Biden's Caregivers on many issues, but unless he plans to become more adversarial ~ no one will even know his platform. He's waaaay too freaking nice to "His Good Friend Biden."

Anonymous

Question ~ WHY isn't Marianne or Kennedy being LOUD & ANGRY that the DNC has decided NO Debates? Why are they behaving as if a debate with Biden is in their future? This makes BOTH their campaigns a mute point. If the majority of voters only know about them thru MSM, how do they plan on fighting back? They're just as much willing dupes as the people who vote for them. If a candidate has Instagram & Twitter followers, is never allowed to debate/express their views on a Public stage... did that candidate really exist at all? Or are they just a previous job in a Campaign Consultant's resume?

Anonymous

I was thinking as the episode was closing - "this might be the best episode I've ever listened to". Then Cranberries kicks in... Yep! Best episode ever. Thanks to Kshama and Brie.

Adam Brosnan
>>107360205

I have grown to really loath Bernie. His servility is pretty disgusting. I hope BJG can find the courage to critique her *good friend Bernie*. It's the same cognitive bias Bernie has with Biden, due to personal relationship, he is unwilling to meaningfully attack him. I was disgusted watching his servility in the primary and now its just pathetic. His book, it's ok to be mad at capitalism, is a fucking joke after the way he deliberately disabled the movement that could actually meaningfully change working peoples lives. I hate to be one of those guys that turns on people in the left and attacks Bernie, but we, BJG, and most people in this space, give him a pass, when he had the leverage and the people, he bent the knee, not even for 30 pieces of silver, literally for fuck all. Nada.

matt penfield

Please try to get some of the recently elected DSA city council members on the show. The org is so much more than the squad, and they’re getting shit done in a similar vein to Sawant in Seattle.