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Episode 276 - After Black Lives Matter (w/ Cedric G. Johnson) (Patreon)

Published:
2023-05-29 04:17:01
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

Prof. Cedric G. Johnson, author of After Black Lives Matter: Policing and Anti-Capitalist Struggle, joins Bad Faith to explain why the movement fell short, his beef with police abolitionists, and why a class lens is necessary to understand the roots and trajectory of the policing crisis.

Subscribe to Bad Faith on YouTube for video of this episode. Find Bad Faith on Twitter (@badfaithpod) and Instagram (@badfaithpod).

Produced by Armand Aviram.

Theme by Nick Thorburn (@nickfromislands).

Comments

Jonathan Kadmon

I like where he's focusing historically. Even where I disagree with some of the fine points, mostly the same place as you did, I take his point. This is another one of those episodes that I would have enjoyed listening to another hour of but I'm delighted to see this one went longer than average 😂

Anonymous

I thought it was an interesting discussion also. I wish they could dig into the qualified immunity and debate that some more. I don’t buy his argument and would like him to explain it more. This episode ended abruptly. It sound like Bri was about to say something before the music came up. I wonder if that’s the hold thing.

AbsenteeUncle

“The point I’m making is more of an abstract one” read as, “my opinion on qualified immunity is misinformed and I also haven’t really thought it through”.

Anonymous

For those wondering about policing alternatives, Portland Street Response is worth a look.

Anonymous

Brie can you please talk to more ‘race abolition’ type of folks? That’s the end goal here… Sheena Mason is interesting. It’s all built on Racecraft. I know TCW is in that camp, even the Reeds. But it would be good to start mainstreaming this which is ultimately a social issue we will have to teach in the same way now that we are essentially teaching kids that other races are real and exist but from a liberal/left view which honestly makes me sick. They don’t even realize how they reinforce white supremacist/colonial narratives around race.

Anonymous

Good episode. I found the discussion around “BLM” & class fruitful. Would like to hear more interrogation along this line of class & race conjunctions questioning & thinking vs the abolition-or-not debate angle.

Anonymous

@ Serbo, this. 100%. I would love to hear Briahna talk with Sheena Mason about her "skeptical eliminativist" view of race and her argument that we should go beyond anti-racism to what she calls anti-rac(e)ism. I would even more like to hear her talk to Barbara Fields.

Anonymous

Great episode. I always enjoy Bri's capacity for respectful debate. The start and end seemed very abrupt, though.

shrewdalma

You sound so much more intelligent then this guy.

Anonymous

Societal change need to happen first be for qualified immunity goes away. Plus if the system was 30% more fair where low income people and white collar financial crime were treated more similar I bet qualified immunity wouldn't matter

Anonymous

There’s a need for a lefty legal-explainer-channel.

Anonymous
>>109541075

I think she was caught off guard not realizing he didn’t understand what qualified immunity is. I think a lot of us assume people with fancy degrees just get it… especially when they’ve written about it. I’ve been thinking a lot about how most everything in law school could be taught in high school, or even middle school, but they want us not understanding how society works. Like people seem to not get the difference between torts and crimes, that is, civil liability and criminal liability. Also I sometimes wonder if the abrupt cuts is like a performance art where Bri is trying to show us that she’s purposely getting certain things on the record and purposely keeping certain cards close to her chest but I dunno *hits vape pen*

Anonymous
>>109525955

I expected you to say the more articulate version of what I’m thinking about the crux of the major disagreements on this pod: that American policing is not merely unjustifiable, but actually exists exactly as designed which is to uphold the capital order. It seemed like Bri was saying that he pretty much there in his understanding of the history of vagrancy laws and stuff. I feel like everywhere I look lately, I see evidence of labor being disciplined. So maybe I’m just protecting.

Jonathan Kadmon
>>109525955

I know that history that's why I appreciate the interview and think I need to pick up the book. According to Brie that's part of what's in it. Also Adolph Reed just plugged the book so now I *have* to order it.

Anonymous

Man, I wanted to go into this with an open mind, but as soon as ol' boy retreated to the social constructionism argument about race, as if that factoid is at all germane to the reality that race has material force and velocity on folks' lives, it was difficult to try and not check out. Ironically, these class reductionist nearly never make social constructionist arguments about the existence of money when critiquing the stratification of capital; when making arguments for a redistribution of wealth. Moreover, this guest seems to conflate race centered politics and identity politics, like, for example, the guest's highlight of black folk of both sides of school choice issues. The centrality of race doesn't replace blue no matter who with black even if whack. Instead, race politics takes an empirical analysis of the socio-economic position of one's ethnic group to advocate for one's group from that position. Class politics obfuscates the particularities of those urgencies, like for instance in Chicago, where underclass, Latino immigrants are displacing underclass black labor, showing, apparently, the primacy of race from the State's perspective. These class reductionist always argue against, even the co-centrality of, race by foregrounding the anomalous case--"blank bankers", the "professional managerial class"--as if there's any meaningful size of black folk, especially ADOS folk, in these kinds of professions such that any serious analysis of a "black middle class"; any serious arguments about a "truer" class tension undergirding police brutality can be made. For Goodness sake, we're taking about a Country for which abolition is still a fractional elapse of time compared to the far longer context in which one could legally own, sell, kill, torture and rape human beings, IF said human being was black (not poor--BLACK). This is work avoidance

Anonymous
>>109525955

so are we gon' pretend like vagrancy laws weren't created to return nearly freed Slaves to prison slavery; pretend as if Reconstruction era police were patrolling for "shiftlessness" in all colors?

Anonymous

We are continuing to litigate black humanity when the truth is that black people are and have always been suspicious and "illegal" in the US. The level of gaslighting is nauseating.

Anonymous
>>109611181

and then to talk about "black billionaires" (there's about 7 Black American billionaires on the planet), to justify the gaslight is peak BS

Anonymous

I didnt understand his point about qualified immunity becuase he doesn't need it to make his broader point. I took his broader point to be that the functioning of a large, multi-faceted society with laws will need some sort of monopoly on violence. This will involve some sort of, whatever you call it, police force. One major misunderstanding between Bri and Johnson was that Johnson is saying that this is necessarily the case--there will never be a time, regardless of social reconfiguration, when police are not needed. I think I agree with this broader point. But obviously the QI point doesn't need to be made here and is just incorrect. I think Bri missed this. Even in Star Trek they probably had some way of enforcing order no?