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A Fieldspotters Guide to Debate Pervertry and Guru Rhetoric w/ Destiny (Patreon)

Published:
2025-01-18 08:34:41
Edited:
2025-05-10 02:25:32
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

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  • Fieldspotters Guide PF.mp3

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Content

In the wake of Lex's recent interview with Zelensky, we thought it was the perfect moment to dedicate an episode to a Fieldspotter's Guide for the rhetorical and manipulative techniques that flourish in the Gurusphere. To help us navigate this terrain, we're joined by streamer and online debater Steven Bonnell—better known as Destiny—who was previously the subject of a Decoding episode and Right to Reply. Destiny has spent years cataloguing what he calls "Debate Pervertry" tactics during his clashes with streamers, influencers, and online pundits, so we thought it might be worthwhile to compare notes.

Expect discussions of gurusphere favourites, including strategic disclaimers, decorative scholarship, the heterodox pose, and civility porn; as well as a deep dive into some rather colourful debate pervetry tactics including the pinball of bullshit, the lazy gardener, and the clown mirror. Along the way, we also engage in our dialectic on the methods of Dr. K and whether Sam Harris leans too heavily on interpersonal dynamics.

So, join us for a lively and hopefully informative episode that might even give your bullshit detector a bit of a boost!

Links

Our episode on Dr. K that covers the reprimand and the Reckful streams

Destiny's Online Notes on Debate Pervertry

Our Right to Reply episode with Sam Harris that covers some of the topics discussed

Files

Comments

collapsing

See yer Curtis Yarvin in the New York Times now - prescient

S Garvey

glad we can all agree the South is filled with dipshits and the West Coast weirdos.

Frances goulart

Mmm.. your bromance with Destiny leaves me a little on the sidelines. Not because of the mention of Ayurveda. I'm a yoga teacher.. I know where to find my chakras, but Destiny is a little much...

Barbara Wright

At the end. Very enjoyable episode. I’m interested in everyone’s view on a question I have: in the wake of the US election, and the ensuing handwringing about the lack of the left wing equivalent of a Joe Rogan….I’ve seen Hasan Piker suggested as someone who could step forward and fill that Left-Rogan role. But Destiny seems a more logical fit. Thoughts?

Rod Hodges

Cool another episode discussing “Bonneli”.

Linda Sears

I enjoyed Destiny’s Peterson voice.

Paul Ditta

Enjoyed that. I enjoy watching Destiny crescendo. Thanks guys.

Brink

I appreciate that Chris repeatedly brought up how problematic Dr. K is, especially since Destiny seems willing to give him pass after pass on bad behavior. Destiny's responses were particularly frustrasting precisely because Dr. K employs so many of the very same bad faith rhetorical tricks that Destiny keeps claiming to despise. I also couldn't help but notice how different Chris and Matt's tone toward Dr. K was when compared to the tone they've adopted previously. In their 3-part series, they were both scathing about Dr. K's reprehensible behavior. In this podcast, not so much. I realize that's probably due in part to the desire to be polite to their guest, but frankly I don't think Dr. K deserves politeness. The guy is an all-around bad faith actor, as their 3-parter made abundantly clear.

Talent Pun

Fun listen! You should create a cheat sheet of all these debate tropes we can share out. We need to spread 'debate literacy' to the masses.

CHUSSTERR

Great ep love the destiny content

CuriousGeorge

Is evolutionary psychology then really right wing bullshit? I read David M Buss’s book on it, felt all pretty decent findings? Or are we talking just about poor quality studies within the field? Great episode tho!

Joshua

I wouldn't have predicted how much Matt despises René Girard lol. I found the Scapegoat very interesting tbh. Though it's way outside my field so maybe there's a good criticism there that just isn't obvious to me. No endorsement of how Thiel cites him obviously

Scott Grande

This was so good. Destiny is great with you guys - you should consider some kind of periodic check-in.

Par 🇨🇦

I was silently screaming and horror listening to you guys coin all these new phrases! Creating your own anachronistic terminology that gets picked up by a community. If “the lazy gardener“ takes off I’m reporting it to the DISC!

Molly Bretthauer

Just FYI- in Law- at least the American legal system - judges and attorneys DO USE A DICTIONARY, better yet- multiple dictionaries. "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.” - Bill Clinton

Cat Barrett

Love this, great to hear Destiny again. Hope we hear more from him too.

Salex

Oh hell, not Dr K! Its too hot in my part of Aus today to add a psychological meltdown to my physical one ! 🥵🫠😂

Nancy Hale

It’s impressive how Destiny can modulate his presentation style to mirror the setting. Noticed this from the original decoding episode. He can be gross on a stream then composed (if a tad edgy) when talking to, say, Peterson, conventional media, or our DtG guys. Most people do switching as standard social interaction, but Destiny is something else. Excellent & valuable episode just the same.

Tree

Im glad he was corrected about that "aqua" thing. Sounding so smug while not even getting the word right was infuriating.

Lys

Will we get a PDF summary of this field guide?

collapsing

On a serious note - people criticising Destiny, or implicitly the crossover ( which I enjoyed and think it was useful to have techniques Gurus/ MAGA do laid out in a technical sense for a larger , younger audience that Destiny brings) need to realise the media landscape has fundamentally changed and purity testing isn’t going to cut it , especially with the younger, any more. As Michael Jackson ( and Paul McCartney) once said - there’s good and bad in everyone. Destiny is a typical new media figure but clearly aligns with rationality, science, and facts in ways many others don’t. Can be controversial and can be funny. I disagree with much of his Israel/Palestine commentary for example. But there’s clearly a very real tectonic shift/ hinge point in the West happening in a dangerous way and people like Destiny are not the scary ones. And the non- loony, non- conspiracy, non- Yarvin adjacent need to stop bringing knives to gunfights. And the lads also didn’t shy away from disagreeing- eg the Dr K stuff - which was legitimate- and showed you can actually have adult conversations with challenges and Destiny, to be fair , despite K being a friend- didn’t try to move on but listened and engaged.I wonder if this conversation is a step in DTG starting to more actively try save civilisation … as Destiny pointed out the Gurusphere is now essentially a political quasi religious movement- MAGA adjacent in the States. Politics being downstream from culture and all that….

Roland Weber

That was educational and entertaining, thanks a lot! 😃But it's become obvious that your coverage of Dr.K was too superficial and you need to do a deep-dive on him. 😈

Alex H

Enjoyed this. We need a DtG swear jar for Destiny's appearances though. 100 to Give Well each time he says fuck!

Matt Carr

Thoroughly enjoyable episode. Cheers guys!

Kgar

Another guru for you all to consider: the diary of a ceo guy. He allows these charlatans on his show with no pushback. Kind of an ‘indirect’ guru

Cuzn Ed

I’m mostly enjoying this Guide, but i’m having to listen in short-ish sessions. Perhaps it’s my ADHD, perhaps it’s Destiny. Who could possibly say? This bit about Dr. K, for instance, is maddening. I can’t even remember which DTG host referenced Dr. K as an example of a conversation tactic that i also can’t even remember now. Why can’t i remember? Because Destiny got so hung up on the specifics of the Dr. K stories, he forgot that they were talking about “debate pervertry” and turned it into what has felt like days of hand-wringing about how harshly or not to criticize Dr. K himself. I don’t think he’s INTENTIONALLY derailing the conversation—i just think he lost the plot, one result of which is a thoroughly derailed conversation. Good on ya, Matt, for trying to get the conversation back on track. (Emphasis on “trying“.)

Da Jay SwIzzle

The working backwards from "who profits from this?" To support a Conspiracy theory has been part of conspiracy subculture for decades. It's essentially the core of 9/11 Made it Happen On Purpose logic, working backwards from the way the events paved the way for the War on Terror. It's linked to the lack of chaos/opportunity and general understanding of odds/statistics in conspiracy communities. You won't find brains that can grok that stuff there. Everything happens for a reason. Fate is real. There are no coincidences, and if we look at who profited or benefitted from any event, we can work backwards and assume they orchestrated it. Literate conspiracy enthusiasts used a fancy Latin term "Cui Buono?"

Kimberly Beer

This was a good episode. Not sure how I feel about Destiny. I do very much appreciate how he seems to be ethical and the rage he expresses about hypocrisy I def can get on board with him with those points. As an American, we can def can be quite self righteous and aggressive lol 😬

Monica B.

Omg at the water / acqua / agua guy 💀💀💀 Also I’m not really into Destiny because reasons (though I’m enjoying this convo for sure), but if he spoke in that Jordan Peterson voice all the time I might tune in 🤣 Obsessed

Charlie

Would like to see a periodic check in with destiny

Cara R

Y u Nn

Cara R

Very interesting. But every time Destiny was speaking, I thought my phone was on 2X speed.

DJM

Were you citing Daryl Bems Psi research, Chris? Regardless, I appreciate your focus on research methods.

Jen

If you guys ever run out of topics I have a suggestion to have more field guides. I wonder if you could get into more solutions and maybe have guests that work with victims and can offer insight into how to overcome these assaults on our critical thinking. So many people I know still think that followers are just dumb. I stand up for them. Anyone can fall into these traps.

Kerena

Destiny is probably the right person to discuss debate mechanics in the online world. However, sometimes his grasp of substance seems superficial. Which I suppose he admits. This came to mind regarding his commentary on the West Bank. Who is he debating with that is not aware of the status of the Palestinian Authority government in the West Bank? Sounds like he is engaging with online morons rather than people with an understanding of the region. Certainly it doesn't sound like he is engaging with Palestinians. I'm not sure in what context he would deploy this information as a "gotcha." There is no question that the West Bank is under Israeli military occupation, is in no sense an independent state, and is being illegally settled by Israel. It is also beyond clear that the goal of the right in Israel, with the consent of Trump, is full annexation.. If Destiny believes that the role of the PA somehow justifies the occupation, I remain confused by his brilliant debate artistry.

Kelley

Jesus can you guys stop with the Destiny chats? Surely there are better people to talk to.

John Pohl

Gotta say that René Girard’s “The Scapegoat” is a good read about how society blames its troubles on minority groups that are powerless (hence, scapegoating). He is a better philosopher than you state.

Josh

Love when destiny is on. I don't think I would watch his own content, but I love his extreme vibe paired with both of your calm dispositions

Nico

This must’ve been by far one of the, if not the best episodes. Destiny, regardless of how blunt he can be, is a total genius!

Chandra Collins

I started listening to this before the inauguration. Now listening to it afterwards, it is even more significant. Especially the hypocrisy between politics in the US and the tech bros at the inauguration. 1 day later they are controlling our social media posts to please Trumpus. I appreciate your conversation and the quirky names of these strategies. Thank you for this conversation.

Bobby Wayward

“Many things fill lakes and rivers” I almost rolled my eyes out of my head

Joakim Kolle

Just as a heads up: two women have now come forward and accused Destiny of sharing sexual content of them without their consent. One of them is filing a lawsuit against Destiny. This pains me, as i have been following him and been a fan for several years. But i thought it would be good for you to know, as I don’t want your affiliation with him cause any harm. He has acknowledged that he shared the material willingly to a 19 year old woman he met online. Here is a link to one of the women’s statement: https://pxie412.substack.com/p/i-will-be-suing-steven-kenneth-bonnell Edit: did not know this was discussed in the live chat. I’m keeping the comment up nonetheless

Jill

Love Destiny’s vocal impersonation of Jordan P !

DrSmartThong

Loved this, shame he flew too close to the corny sun and hope his confidence in clearing things up after the legal stuff is vindicated because it'd be a shame to lose this quality of thinker on the left to some goofy degenerate shit