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Michael Shellenberger: Conspiratorial Propaganda (Patreon)

Published:
2025-04-18 09:02:32
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

In this episode, Matt and Chris pour themselves a stiff drink and slip into the fever‑dream crossover of Jordan Peterson and Michael Shellenberger, a conversation that opens with the claim that Western Europe is now the single greatest threat to free speech; yes, croissants and GDPR apparently out‑authoritarian China and Russia. From there, they enjoy learning how “America Is Back!” thanks to God-Emperor Trump and his manifestation of the Egyptian God of honest speech- Elon Musk.

Our hosts marvel as Shellenberger insists USAID is a rogue soft‑power leviathan that somehow staged January 6th, sabotaged the 2020 election, and deserves to be nuked from orbit, though, full disclosure, he can’t quite prove any of that YET​. Peterson counters with his trademark poetic mythicism and dinner‑party anthropology, explaining that Hungary is a model democracy, the US nation is beset by parasites, and that this is all inevitably tied into people not paying enough attention to Jesus​.

Along the way, we learn about Manly Men, Musk’s “move fast and break government” ethos, and the revelation that free speech is not a nice‑to‑have but a must‑have—unless you are a lawyer, journalist, or student on the wrong side of the Trump administration. We also get to observe how Peterson and Shellenberger manage to simultaneously present themselves as freethinking rebel intellectuals while also serving as propagandists justifying every single action taken by Trump and Musk. So strap in for an episode of depressingly familiar and dystopic themes from two conspiratorial eejits.

Sources- Peterson, J. & Shellenberger, M. “Trump, Musk, Kennedy: The Dawn of Transparency,” The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast, Ep. 526.- Shellenberger's Substack

Comments

Paul Ditta

I’m having to take breaks. The rage inducing hypocrisy is making me foam at the fucking mouth here…

332

As a european, this was way more infuriating than I expected. Consuming in bite sized pieces.

Claudia

This was one of the worst in recent weeks and months. As a (Western!) European, I am of course aware of all the abuse we are getting lately from the Trump administration, but hearing it justified by those idiots is even more infuriating. I'm sick and tired of American exceptionalism. Especially when, considering what's going on the US, we are being lectured on free speech. How delusional can people be? Have we jumped to an "opposite universe"?

Kyle Wilson

I really hate this motherfucker

Mike Nelson

I hate these two so much. A pair of useful idiots for American fascism.

Paul Ditta

Fuck me this was a hard listen. And I didn’t have to do the whole thing. Boys, do you need a fruit basket or a stiff drink?

Daniel VI

The phrase “shit for brains” was invented for people like Shellenberger and Peterson.

Paul Ditta

…and just when I thought it was over. Jordan “Fucking” Hall. Fuck my life…

Trees

Mennonites aren't Quakers! Shellenberger went to a Quaker school but is not a Quaker.

Monica B.

I’m legit scared of this one and it’s rage-inducing potential 😑

HorseBanana

Couldn’t finish this one

Liz Tily

These comments are scaring me but I’m putting on my big girl pants and jumping in anyway…

Bernt

This is a very infuriating to listen. Initially my thoughts are that these guys just complete idiots. How could they believe what they're saying? But, like you say, they're just propagandists at this point. The truth no longer matters to them. Everything they say is just in service of their deeper ideolgic mission of bringing back western cultural conservative values and they don't think in terms truth, but in terms of how they can spin the truth to fit their world view that they deeply believe in. I think it is very dark the extent they will go support this mission. There is so much right wing propaganda right now and honestly don't know how we're suppose to combat this messaging. It feels futile at times. The sad thing is that it is effective. I don't think the majority believes in it, but I think enough people believe it and for many it just becomes too exhausting to engage with. I am worried more and more people are just going to start shrugging their shoulders and not know what to believe anymore

jubshit

Oh, lordy. I just dipped my toe in and I need to get back to work but... Woof. I can only think of analogies to express how I feel. Jordan and Michael are scary people. They say so very much but hold themselves to so very little.

Herr K.

Remember when James Lindsay said that CRT people had figured out that liberal democracy can be brought to its knees using the power of consant moaning? If there's any evidence that he has made a partially useful observation, then it's what we're seeing here. I have to reassure myself that this sort of content only reaches and impacts within the MAGA sphere, because God help us if not.

Alex H

When I hear Peterson talking about Europe my inner Taleb is triggered: "Peterson, you idiot. Stay out of this!!"

Alex H

Also, I'd be thrilled if Hungary was running a great pro-family policy, but I'm pretty sure the impact has been weak on TFR. Oh, and why isn't he lunching with Ukrainian, Finnish, and Polish leaders, and not just Orban? Hmmmm....curious curious .

Kimberly Beer

I’m trying to clean and I just get so angry I have to take to my bed. lol 😂

John T

This was like listening to Pinky and The Brain discuss the works of Oliver Stone as if they were documentaries… and instead of Brain, it’s two Pinkys. JFC.

Cee

I have started this...I am not sure I can finish it. The projection from those on the right is so out of control I'm at a loss for words. How, at this point in time, knowing all that we now know about the actual reality of Trump's presidency, can anyone sit there with a straight face talking about censorship and totalitarianism coming out of Europe and not the U.S?!? As the saying goes fellas, he who smelt it, dealt it.

Nancy Hale

Dear cod this was a tough one, I feel you all. Jordo pulling out the Evil Brother myth was almost my breaking point to bail. Lots of adjectives could describe the source material. Infuriating, depressing, confusing. To me it’s just banal and tedious, because it’s dull propaganda.

Grignard Girlie

JP manages to say so little while talking so much. Bless both of their hearts.

Mike

Michael Shillingberger and Jordan Grifterson

Tree

Extremely minor quibble, but I kinda agree with Peterson the "conservative" is not the right word for Trump and co. Like would you call a Nazi conservative? (The first and probably last time I will say I agree with Peterson)

Tree

Urgh, listening to these people lie and lie and lie is very grating.

Tree

Ok I am only half way through and I think I hate Shellenburger more than anyone else you've covered. Probably because he's an ex leftist and is using everything he got from the left to do his own propaganda spin for Trump. I hate him more than Lex or Red Scare. And your right it is fucking chilling.

Frances goulart

You lost me after Captain Haddock. What kind of upside down universe do JP , Shellenberg and company live in ? Aargh! And double barf!

jss

Chris, yes you can come out and say ‘they are instituting a fascist state’ because it’s clear

Damian McCarron

JP is never going to stop with his Jungian inspired fairytales is he? Incoherent babble that his guests just nod along to. No one else could get away with it. Brilliant but infuriating episode, hats off to you both.

Frances goulart

When the integrating ethos collapses...? I'm beginning to see the upside of a self induced coma in the company of these two.

Monica B.

These two joke farmers epitomize the saying ‘every accusation is a confession’

Sam Hall

Particularly enjoyed the bit where Shellenberger pronounced ‘wanton’ as ‘wonton’

Trees

Wtf happened to this guy? 5 years ago I heard him talk about how the climate movement needed to embrace nuclear power and he seemed reasonable. Read some of Jesse Singal's pieces and thought he'd gone conspiratorial, some Biden derangement syndrome, but damn, he's gone full MAGA.

Mark Francis

Has there ever been a Oliver Stone decoding? because these are the exact same premise of ‘the told history of the United States’ with the root cause of world problems being American foreign policy and western decadence. The doc definitely was in the horseshoe terrain in hindsight

Nina J.

I really want to dunk on how stupid and crazy these twats are - both because I enjoy it and because it’s one of the only means available by which to discharge the rage and terror I feel in response to their enormous popularity and influence - but it’s becoming increasingly difficult. I’m honestly just furious and terrified. I had to pause the episode at a few points to allow these feelings to subside, but the most significant of these was when Shellenberger included reproduction in his lunatic list of requirements for earning the “privilege” of citizenship. Matt and Chris definitely highlighted how bizarre this was (even in an otherwise objectively strange list), but I don’t think it’s incidental. As was noted, there doesn’t seem to be any place for women in the grand narrative of a Western civilization created by and for gentleman; well, here is the role via which we are meant to contribute. They imagine men like themselves to be the sole possible suppliers of the creativity, innovation, morality, etc. that are required to create and sustain a civilization, and - in the spirit of sacrifice - women are to offer the only thing we have that they seem to consider valuable: our reproductive organs. This, of course, is yet another of the well-worn tenets of fascism that these definitely-not-fascists obsess over. It’s also not new to American conservatism, of course, but I’m genuinely terrified of where this iteration will take it, especially as they succeed in removing or circumventing all the checks and balances that have previously impeded the full implementation of the christofascist wet dream. Anybody’s countries looking to attract disagreeable millennials without much capital? I’d love to get the fuck out of here.

Kerena

Sounds like they can't pin the conspiratorial epicenter on a woke enemy within anymore, because we were told Trump would vanquish that enemy. There can be no question that he has, so a new focus is urgent. How about... Europe! Idk if this is cliche to point out but I don't recall Trump and Vance campaigning on hatred of Western Europe? Here in Pennsylvania it was Kamala = high prices and immigrants are eating cats.

Linda Sears

Hearing Peterson and Shellenberger talk about the elite/woke corrupting viruses destroying the healthy body of America really nailed it for me that the Covid-19 pandemic broke some people. And, although I hate to say it, Jordan was semi-right about Horus. The evil brother was Set who killed Osiris (the “good guy”). Isis, his sister and wife revived him, they had sex, and their child was Horus. Horus avenged his father’s death by killing Set. As far as I understand it, the death and resurrection of Osiris was about annual flooding in Ancient Egypt, restoration of order, and life after death. It had nothing to do with an egomaniac taking control of governmental agencies.

Damien Murtagh

When the hell did this time of "gentlemen" exist?

afaf

About an hour in of these two insufferable idiots. 1) funny how Shellenberger deems himself an authority to speak on behalf of all americans and what our values and perceptions are. like who the hell are you?! 2) when these dudes talk about the perniciousness of legacy media it's almost as if they have their own vested interest in the alternative landscape - reminds me of alternative medicine wellness space / cult dynamics 3) I find it ironic how Peterson lambasts liberal values as being disconnecting from reality and spreading fear, yet its these liberal values which have made the west better over time. So who's really catastrophizing now? 4) Relates to point two. Peterson articulates some absolute drivel as that 'we dont fully understand free speech,' then goes on some incoherent monologue displaying's that he's actually the one that understands it. 5) Lastly about Shellenberger comments on the Unitary Executive theory. Funny how this guys defense is 'might makes right', and that's granting him the basis of the accuracy of this theory which is hotly debated. Has nothing to do with what should be the policy. I wonder if other admins did this that had a different ideological slant of how he would evaluate it.

Paul Bowman

The Silicon Valley broligarch's hostility to Brussels and EU legislation, that Shellenburger is repping has bugger all to do with "free speech". It's hostility to basic consumer privacy rights like the GDPR. And some attempt to stem the flow of nazi and far right disinformation in the Digital Services Act, etc. I've spent the last 10 years of my work life as a DBA arguing with American IT vendors who refuse to accept they need to make their crappy products GDPR compliant (eg by providing effective data masking script for test and dev levels, etc). The US IT industry is based on the ruthless exploitation of the public with no allowance for digital privacy rights. That's the fundamental beef against the EU. Money and legal rights of the ordinary punter

commutercomputer

Service guarantees citizenship The discussion in the later part of the decoding sounded like that two guys watched Starship troopers and didn't get that the movie was critical to fascism. The most shocking thing about the material was that how low these two persons have fallen, while the expectations were already very low. For me Schellenberger is a familiar figure from his climate change denialism days. From this background it's not very shocking that he went full MAGA. However the extent how much they used language, which is usually spread during genocides was really troubling. Lastly as a person who lives in the neighborhood of Russia it boils my blood that these wankers spew bullshit about EU totalitarianism, while we have actual totalitarian state in Europe waging imperialistic war.

Matt Dear

UK police turning up at your door saying "you've been posting bad things on social media" Is that in reference to Lawrence Fox? He posted a picture of the Pride+ flag, arranged so it made a swastika. Or are there other examples? Or is it in relation to the police convicting people who participated in, and posted encouragement to, the 2024 race riots?

WB

Rage fueled my bike ride home from the store tonight. This episode is an utter shambles. You have done a disservice to all of us in the US fighting against Trump. You have done a disservice to the now unemployed personnel of USAID. Finally, you have disgraced yourselves not only with your know-nothing bloviation on the functions and alleged functions of USAID, the views we hold in the US about free speech (yes, many of us look at Europe's free speech and laugh and say, no thanks), continued flippant insults of the idea that a government could ever commit a conspiracy (news flash, ours has, many have been particularly heinous, Tuskegee is not only known for its pilots, and in general the US Government is utterly and hysterically obsessed with secrets to which I can attest first hand: they classify EVERYTHING.) and in general, falling into the many pitfalls of the gurus you critique. The fact that this episode could be taken and played in full by someone on the Trump side, and it would serve as legitimate ammo against us fighting them, is an outcome I would have placed well below the acceptable bar of standards for your podcast. You sounded just as ill informed as those rightfully being lampooned. I will finish with this: the next time you decide to tip toe through US domestic weeds at anything other than the most useless cursory surface glance, please, for your sake, for our sake, call in someone that actually knows what the fuck they are talking about (USAID especially, I am sure you could have easily found someone that formally worked there, since, you know, no one does anymore for all practical purposes).

Charlie

Shellenberger is so boring and so predictable.

Sarah S

Here is some usaid background which I guess you missed The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) was created in 1961 by President John F. Kennedy to centralize foreign aid. The real goal wasn’t just humanitarian — it was a Cold War strategy: use economic development to pull newly independent countries away from the influence of communism and toward capitalism. Source: USAID History – USAID.gov ⸻ The Bad Shit — Including Their Role in Killing People USAID has functioned not just as a development agency, but as a tool of U.S. foreign policy and covert operations. In many cases, it provided cover, logistics, or financial support for projects that involved torture, assassination, or regime change. ⸻ 1. Chile – Salvador Allende (1970–1973) • USAID poured millions of dollars into anti-Allende forces, media, and political groups. • This was part of a larger U.S. strategy coordinated with the CIA to prevent Allende’s election and later destabilize his government. Source: Peter Kornbluh, The Pinochet File: A Declassified Dossier on Atrocity and Accountability (The New Press, 2003). Also: National Security Archive – Chile Project • General René Schneider, who opposed military intervention, was assassinated with CIA complicity as part of a failed kidnapping plan — known as the “Track II” plot — to pave the way for a coup. Source: U.S. Senate, Church Committee Report, Book I, Chapter XI, “Covert Action in Chile, 1963–1973” Link to full report • Allende died during the 1973 coup. Whether suicide or execution, his death was the direct result of U.S.-backed regime change. ⸻ 2. Vietnam – Phoenix Program (1965–1972) • USAID supported the Phoenix Program, a CIA-run counterinsurgency effort to identify and “neutralize” Viet Cong sympathizers. • It resulted in the torture, disappearance, and assassination of over 20,000 people, many of whom were civilians. Source: Douglas Valentine, The Phoenix Program (1990) Also: CIA and the Phoenix Program – National Archives • USAID provided logistical and financial support and helped run programs in the same offices used by CIA operatives. ⸻ 3. Latin America – Dirty Wars (1970s–1980s) • USAID’s Office of Public Safety (OPS) trained police forces across Latin America, often working alongside the CIA. • These forces became infamous for forming death squads and using torture, disappearances, and extrajudicial killings against leftists, indigenous leaders, and union organizers. Source: Martha K. Huggins, Political Policing: The United States and Latin America’s Dirty Wars (Duke University Press, 1998) Also: U.S. GAO Report (1976) on OPS abuses GAO Report Summary • OPS was officially shut down in 1974 after reports of widespread human rights violations, but its personnel and practices lived on in other programs. ⸻ Other Harm Done by USAID: – Structural Adjustment and Neoliberalism • USAID worked closely with the IMF and World Bank to promote “free market reforms,” often requiring countries to privatize utilities, cut social services, and open markets to U.S. corporations in exchange for aid. Source: Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine (2007) Also: “USAID and the Washington Consensus,” in William Easterly’s The White Man’s Burden (Penguin, 2006) – Green Revolution Fallout • USAID helped spread high-yield crops, synthetic fertilizers, and pesticides across the Global South. • This led to monoculture, soil depletion, and corporate seed dependency, hurting long-term sustainability. Source: Vandana Shiva, The Violence of the Green Revolution (Zed Books, 1991) – Haiti and Cholera • USAID backed privatized water systems and underfunded sanitation in Haiti, leaving the country extremely vulnerable. • After the 2010 earthquake, a cholera outbreak killed 10,000+ people, partially due to failed infrastructure and years of weak public health investment — many of them USAID-linked. Source: Mark Schuller, Killing with Kindness: Haiti, International Aid, and NGOs (Rutgers University Press, 2012) ⸻ USAID Today — Softer Face, Same Agenda Since the early 2000s, USAID has leaned into health aid, disaster relief, and development branding. But its core function hasn’t changed — it serves U.S. foreign policy interests, often through “democracy promotion” and influence campaigns that align with U.S. corporate and geopolitical goals. Source: Janine Wedel, Shadow Elite: How the World’s New Power Brokers Undermine Democracy (Basic Books, 2009) Also: U.S. Global Strategy – USAID.gov Even today, projects are used to steer political outcomes, filter which groups get support, and make sure foreign countries remain friendly to U.S. business and strategic interests.

Kimberly Beer

I worked in an org as a federal grantee; the reporting and accounting requirements were insanely detailed.

Kimberly Beer

Americans should get some Patreon kickbacks. We deliver so many morons. :)

Philip Grant

I kept hearing it as "the Egyptian god Horace", which gave a bit of light relief from the rage.