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The sensemakers are in the rearview mirror, and yet their spiritual essence still haunts us, and it may haunt you after watching the material above. This is a video of Keith Raniere, cult leader of NXIVM, being interviewed by a high-ranking member and Hollywood actress, Allison Mack.

Yes, this is a genuine cult leader, but we think you might note some similar techniques, including some classics of the sense-maker genre. Covering this might also help to clarify why we disagree with those who suggest you can adopt the methods of the gurus to counter them. In any case, take a look and see what you think if you dare!

There is also plenty of material out there, including documentary series that cover NXIVM (e.g. The Vow) in some detail, for those curious.

Files

Keith Raniere, Ringleader of NXIVM Sex Slave Cult, Interviewed by Allison Mack, Top Cult Member

Allison Mack, former Smallville television star, was arrested on April 20, 2018, on federal charges of sex trafficking and conspiracy to commit forced labor, for her recruitment of women into a sex slave cult run by notorious cult ringleader Keith Raniere. In this staged interview, first uploaded to Raniere's YouTube channel in April 2017, Raniere answers questions posed by Mack on a variety of topics ranging from human emotions to acting skills to sexual relationships. Mack appears mesmerized by Raniere's every word; this video shows just how intertwined her life had become with Raniere's manipulative rhetoric. “As alleged in the indictment, Allison Mack recruited women to join what was purported to be a female-mentorship group that was, in fact, created and led by Keith Raniere,” United States Attorney Richard P. Donoghue said in a statement. “The victims were then exploited, both sexually and for their labor, to the defendants’ benefit.” The cult, called NXIVM (pronounced “Nexium”), masks as a “self-help” organization that has reportedly drawn other celebrity followers. The cult was initially formed in 1990 in upstate New York by Raniere as a multi-level marketing pyramid scheme called Consumers’ Buyline, and was later renamed NXIVM. FBI assistant director-in-charge William F. Sweeney called the NXIVM operation a "pyramid scheme” and asked for anyone who might have been a victim to come forward with any information they have. Keith Raniere was arrested in Mexico in March 2018 on multiple federal counts of sex trafficking and forced labor. The criminal complaint against Raniere — known as “Vanguard” to his followers — alleges that he encouraged the formation of a secretive subgroup within NXIVM called “Dominus Obsequious Sororium” or "Dominant Over Submissive" (DOS), in which women were coerced into serving as sex slaves. The complaint outlines how the victims were forced to turn over “collateral” — identified as potentially damaging personal information or materials, such as nude photographs — with which they were later blackmailed. Numerous women who were successfully recruited into the cult were forcibly branded with Keith Raniere’s and Allison Mack's initials. A cauterizing pen was used to make the permanent marks near each victim’s pubic region. According to a former NXIVM publicist, the brands were used to mark victims "as lifelong slaves who have taken the vow for lifelong obedience to Keith Raniere and Allison Mack." Allison Christin Mack joined NXIVM in 2007 and, according to the group's former publicist, went on to recruit at least 25 women into the terrifying slave cult. According to former NXIVM members, Mack eventually became second in command and was known within the cult as "the Madam." Allison Mack's bio on her website currently states that "[o]ver the course of several years, Mr. Raniere mentored Mack in her study of acting and music. As such, she has developed a deep connection to the nature of humanity as it relates to acting as an art form and a tool for personal evolution. In 2013, Mr. Raniere worked with Allison and a small group of equally skilled and dedicated professionals to develop a curriculum that is currently taught through a private arts academy, The Source. There Allison serves as president and is one of its top trainers. The Source provides a unique toolset and innovative exercises to increase one’s mastery of the art of compassion, utilizing the disciplines of acting and expression." Mack starred as Chloe Sullivan in the TV series "Smallville" from 2001 to 2011, and also acted in numerous other TV shows and films. Mack ended her acting career in 2017, allegedly under direct orders from Raniere. Battlestar Galactica star Nicki Clyne joined the NXIVM cult in 2006. Two years later, although she was under contract and at the height of her popularity, she asked the producers of Battlestar Galactica to let her out of her contract. The producers agreed and killed her character off in an episode. Raniere fled to Mexico in late 2017 after an expose of his cult was published in the New York Times on October 17, 2017. Mack and Clyne, along with other female cult members including Lauren Salzman and Loreta Garza Davila, were present with Raniere when he was arrested in Mexico in March 2018. In addition, Mariana Fernandez, the mother of Raniere's child, was spotted with Raniere in Mexico in December 2017. Arrest documents state that Raniere was living with “several women” at a luxury villa near Puerto Vallarta, Mexico at the time of his arrest. Raniere and Mack both face 15 years to life in prison.

Comments

Jenny

Allison Mack

a_cryophilicus

She's so infatuated with him and he likes it. Very uncomfortable to watch.

Carl

“I see something that has Redness. … The redness of red is very personal to us… and is therefore a type of mysticism.” For example, the redness of the skin in your pubic region after being branded by a hot iron is very personal.

Ben Warner

It sounds like the raw data that Jordan Peterson and Eric Weinstein were trained on.

CHUSSTERR

I consumed all the material I could on NXIVN theres a lot of stuff out there.

Shug

Close to home. Watched some of The Vow. Will try to finish it.

Ymirsdreams

Raniere made it 1:27 seconds before mentioning quantum.

Richard DV

Sex Cults …Yes ! Finally…

Ymirsdreams

Just to add: the deliberate removal of vowels and consonants from NXIVM means the language control and ingroup language cult tactic is immediately present as in the very act of being introduced to the group you need to 'learn' how to pronounce it. It immediately puts you on the back foot as less in the know and into a 'receptive' state.

Andrew Millar

Brutal watch, already, 10 minutes in. Why do you torture us?

Ingvar Vanir

Former NXIVN members and whistleblowers Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Ames have an interesting podcast on cult dynamics, particularly noteworthy are the episodes on Scientology, New Age Gurus and spiritual abuse: https://alittlebitculty.com/

Stephen McGlinchey

I've watched those documentaries and this guy is a spectacularly transparent bullshitter

Colin

Predator teaches prey to be predator

Frances goulart

Press that button on his back that turns him off, please!

Kelly 🇮🇪 🇦🇺

Anyone ever see your man "how to with John Wilson" accidentally got intertwined with them through an A capella group lol?

Dank Sparrow

He's doing 120 years in federal now for sex trafficking and racketeering. The underlying criminality realy adds a disturbing layer this odd interview. It is much worse than just a silly cult.

Rich F

This is AI right? Based on the first 25 seconds.

Rich F

We cant measure red you weirdly smooth oddball. We can identify it. Detect it. Label it. We can't weigh it or determine how wide it is. Dude's on some weird shit.

Jeanine Marie

He is trying to steer her away from acting to do his bidding. She had a pretty successful career.

Sam D.

I can't listen to this stuff, literally my brain turns off after listening to him for just a few minutes. it just makes no sense. Her affect is really weird though, isn't it? Almost flirty, fawning, ewwww.

Colin

Very into exploring this. It's utterly fascinating to me how this kind of awfulness happens to ordinary people in a fairly undramatic way - at least to start with - and how it blends without a seam into the guru behaviours that are all over the internet now, and part of many peoples daily lives.

Lucyna

Looking forward to this. I feel like a semi- expert on cults.

Linda Sears

For me this is much harder to watch than the sensemaker two-parter because at least there was a sense of some parity or interplay going on between the three, even though Peterson and Vervaeke dominated the conversation. In this interview, Mack appears to be the adoring acolyte who must adapt her responses to please him by saying what she thinks he wants her to say rather than just saying what she thinks. I don't think Raniere has the same eccentricities and quirky ways of talking that make him entertaining to listen to and watch like Peterson of McConaughey do. He seems pretty bland in comparison, which makes me struggle with understanding why he was so appealing. As far as I can remember from the Vow series, he may have gotten just enough semi-famous people in his group to make other people who wanted to be famous think that joining might be a way to level up.

Nancy Hale

Once you know the ultimate goal of the “women’s empowerment” group in NXIVM, parts of this conversation are all the more unsettling.

DJM

One of my former supervisors studied psychopathy and made note of that pressured, rambling, grievance peppered speech that characterizes a lot of psychopaths. That intense ability to talk passionately for a long time and not really make any sense, but seem to be saying something important. Often about how they’ve been wronged or under appreciated.

Idan Ca

This thumbnail is so on target… the whole thing made me recall large parts of ‘the possibility of an island’ by Michel Houellebecq

Linda Sears

Mack looks thin and seems fragile here. I remember from the Vow documentary that the women in the sex cult part of NXVM had to go on an extreme, starvation diet to prove their adherence to the ideals of self-discipline or something of that nature. People on extreme diets can have issues thinking clearly, and the body is less able to fight back because of weakness. I could see how Hollywood actresses would be particularly vulnerable to that part of the cult’s message since thinness is equated with value, but once you start into obsessively counting calories and over-exercising, it can mess with you physically and mentally.

Rich F

This "interview" is like a shroud draped over the ugliness of that cult. You can see the approximate shape of the thing through the cover. It's genuinely unpleasant.

Rich F

I've nearly made it thru. Did it in sections. Couldn't concentrate on all of it. Too ick. Towards the end he tells her she's being disrespectful to women by using "male language" to talk about them. There's work out there which explores the relationship between language and systems of oppression, but that's not what hes talking about when he scolds her. I mean, yuck, man.

Elissa

«Damn” I thought “what’s with all the weird flirting…” as I got to the 8 min mark i decided to look at the comments to see if anyone else was as uncomfortable as I was getting , I mean, I had to look away! It wasn’t so much what was being said as the crazy inappropriate body language. Comments revealed this is some cult guy! Wowsy ! I must be living under some hell of a rock. Never heard of these people. He’s so not charismatic! Why is she oozing for him? What’s he got that I can’t see?????!!! Thanks peeps- y’all never disappoint, the things I’m learning- gosh - must be creative cause i couldn’t ever have predicted it. Now someone help that woman

Scott Walkers Ghost

Who produced this video? How much of a performance is this? Do you think they spoke prior to this about the interview and how she should behave/perform during this interview?

Paul Ditta

Yeah I got three minutes in and couldn’t stop gagging.

Gunnhildur

So I am not my authentic me... and I don't know it because I am "blind", but it is a big problem... what I should do about it is not clear :-) I could not listen to this with both ears

Emma

Disgusted by how sappy she is. So I just googled her. I'm surprised she only got 3 years in jail for playing what seems like a very active and sadistic role in sex trafficking and coercing other women. She also claimed the branding thing was her idea.

George

Knowing how this all ended makes it all the more unsettling just how similar to the 'sense makers' he sounds. Not suggesting your Petersons and Pageaus of this world are on the same path, but it certainly is interesting.

Shifter

Less than two minutes in and he's already off incoherently rambling after name dropping random disconnected physics terms. This is going to be a juicy one!

Sam Morris

Wow he’s got very strong Peterson vibes.

CHUSSTERR

When will the decoding be out?

Frances

Why Allison Mack is so impressed with Raniere is utterly baffling - he's absolutely full of it!

Leigh

There are a bunch of documentaries on this, one of which was two seasons of "The Vow" - which I *think* was the best of them, but it was a long time ago now and I can't remember 100%. Worth a look, crazy business weirdly centered around the cast of Battlestar Galactica...