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Sam Harris: Debating the Lab Leak, Gaza, the Self and Extremism (Patreon)

Published:
2024-02-16 22:21:43
Edited:
2024-02-17 01:56:06
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

Here is the video version of the interview. If you want to see facial expressions and hear better-quality audio this is the version to see.

Also, we are doing final quality checks so if you notice any technical issues, please let us know so we can fix them before releasing the video to the public.

Thanks

Files

Sam Harris- Debating the Lab Leak, Gaza, the Self, and Extremism

Sam Harris is an author, podcaster, public intellectual, ex-New Atheist, card-returning IDWer, and someone who likely needs no introduction. This is especially the case if you are a DTG listener as we recently released a full-length decoding episode on Sam. Following our Decoding episode (available here: https://decoding-the-gurus.captivate.fm/episode/sam-harris), Sam generously agreed to come on to address some of the points we raised in the Decoding and a few other select topics. As you will hear we get into some discussions of the lab leak, what you can establish from introspection and the nature of self, motivations for extremism, coverage of the conflict and humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and selective application of criticism. Enjoy! Timestamps 00:00 Intro 1:02 Lab Leak 16:00 The limits of introspection 32:08 Debates on Self 45:01 The role of jihadism in the Gaza conflict 54:19 (Mis)representations of the war in Gaza 1:04:48 Collateral Damage and Intentions 1:09:56 The Ethics of Ethnic Cleansing 1:27:16 Selective Criticism and the Far Right Sources - Kevin Drum's blog. 'I read the entire Slack archive about the origin of SARS-CoV-2. There is no evidence of improper behaviour' https://jabberwocking.com/i-read-the-entire-slack-archive-about-the-origin-of-sars-cov-2-there-is-no-evidence-of-improper-behavior/ - Global Catastrophic Risk Institute: The Origin and Implications of the COVID-19 Pandemic: An Expert Survey. https://gcrinstitute.org/papers/069_covid-origin.pdf - Our previous interview with three Virology experts on the Lab Leak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JdzZGhQAPE - New York Magazine article by Eric Levitz 'Sam Harris’s Fairy-Tale Account of the Israel-Hamas Conflict' https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/11/sam-harriss-fairy-tale-account-of-the-israel-hamas-conflict.html - The Israel Democracy Institute. War in Gaza Public Opinion Survey (2): See Question 15. https://en.idi.org.il/media/21835/war-in-gaza-public-opinion-survey-2-data.pdf - Sam Harris Episode 351: 5 Myths about Israel and the War in Gaza https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/351-5-myths-about-israel-and-the-war-in-gaza - Making Sense Podcast Episode 352: Hubris & Chaos- A Conversation with Rory Stewart https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/352-hubris-chaos - Atran, S. (2016). The devoted actor: Unconditional commitment and intractable conflict across cultures. Current Anthropology, 57(S13), S192-S203. https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/685495

Comments

Jake Lawrence

Watching Sam's facial reactions makes his rhetoric worse. It's not a good look.

Floatgoat.

I don’t know how self aware he is. He had a disagreement with Ezra Klein awhile back and he read that situation all wrong. Their discussion is worth a listen.

Colin Fardey

I wish you had spent more time on the lab leak. I say this as somone who likes Sam , but his position makes no sense . We have the consensus among the relevant experts , viroligists and epidemiologists. On the other hand we have "i dont quite tust virologists based on a book i read " and an intelligence agency has evidence that "we cant see". How can that equate to "its 50 /50 in my eyes " ?

Brendan Smith

As you're asking for QC comments... whatever the LUT or adjustment made to Chris' shot I think is probably doing more harm than good. Not that there would be time for this kind of change but the the 3-way view popping in and out to mask cuts doesn't feel great (this might just be my taste), and perhaps focus-switching between speaker and reactions as needed/wanted would feel smoother.

Michael

I am wondering - what do people believe is to be done about intractable religious fanatics? Here in the USA, I can tell you they are a real problem. It doesn’t matter what God, either. Religious people have been actively making me miserable my entire life, through beatings, shaming, humiliation, etc. What is to be done? Anybody? What is to be done with people who throw homosexuals off buildings and force 12 year olds impregnated by their fathers to carry to term? Anyone have an answer? Sam didn’t come off so great, but maybe his patience had worn thin.

Charlie

Sam Harris is long winded, my god. 15 minutes of lab leak talk and there was barely time for any push back. Wished you had gone harder on him.

Lilydale

For me Sam came off great. He made complete good sense and I’ve listened to this a couple of times. It really astonishes me that people are criticizing him.

Jori Grym

I felt that you guys (Matt & Chris) engaged in a lot of "whataboutism" and "good people on both sidesism" . I think Sam went through a lot of Zoolander-style "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills" when the other side doesn't seem to understand his points - for instance on the asymmetry of actions in the Gaza situation :D I have to give match point Harris on this one.

Kat

Wow, you're giving me another chance to say Sam is a moral monster? You shouldn't. This week's news from Gaza, I guess you haven't been reading it: The Israelis had Nasser hospital surrounded and ordered everyone to evacuate. To get the message through, they arrested a young man, beat him etc., and ordered him to go into the hospital and tell everyone to leave or be killed. They also ordered him to return to the Israeli soldiers, or they'd kill everyone in the hospital. He did so, gave hospital staff & all the warning to leave, and returned as ordered. Thereupon they executed him with 3 bullets. That's kind of typical of what the Israeli soldiers have been doing. https://theintercept.com/2024/02/14/gaza-nasser-hospital-evacuation-israel-prisoner/ Nah, you don't want last week's news either. I'm trying to figure out how these are comparable to car crashes. Really.

Ymirsdreams

I have the sense that this wasn't particularly pleasant to go through, so I hope you both (Chris and Matt) did something enjoyable afterwards and don't let him suck the fun out of the project. I do think allowing Sam to clarify his views and why he holds them was helpful (although I didn't find them compelling). His doubling down on everything made it very clear that you weren't strawman-ing or misrepresenting him in the past.

Michael

Texas is a theocracy. Austin is ultra liberal. I think you are confusing muslim and christian theocracies. Abortion being rolled back is one thing, abortion being denied even if that kills the mother is something else entirely. It is ghoulish. Vote for moderate candidates? That’s his solution? That’s like Sam Kinison telling starving Ethiopians to move where the food is, or telling fat people to stop eating. Is it true? Yes. Does it work? HELL NO. American politicians appeal to extremists, because that’s where the votes are. Freakonomics did an episode on this called “America’s Hidden Duopoly”. Frank Luntz is a Republican pollster who has made millions figuring out how to manipulate people by running focus groups that quantify the emotional content of words and phrases. He is pro-vax. He decided to use his powers for good, gathering GOP anti-vaxxers and bringing out high profile Republicans like Colin Powell to try and convince them to take it. Luntz could not get through to these people. He begged and pleaded. My take away is, most people would rather die than admit they were mistaken. “Again, if you actually care…” That is SO condescending and pompous and likely why Sam was short of patience. A zealot is a zealot regardless of faith. The difference between islamic and christian extremists is christians generally have a higher standard of living and more to lose by acting out in public. The minority I am referring to are the Evangelicals. There are not a lot of them. Fun fact: Southern Baptists broke away from the standard Baptists over the issue of slavery. The standard Baptists said, “you can’t own people. It is an offense to God.” I believe people whose faith says homosexuals and Jews will burn in Hell, or should be murdered, or who believe Blacks and women are less than dogs, should be marginalized and prohibited from voting. I have no way of verifying who has or hasn’t “done their research” or judging the validity of that research. Again, if this research provided anything useful, we would be seeing less extremism, not more. Research produced a COVID vaccine, and once it appeared, we saw less death from covid. Are you saying, if I only listened to Rory Stewart my extremist nightmares would disappear? Eh, Cassandra?

SHOUNAK SARKAR

The audio was bad enough but Harris’ smug arrogant expression to go with his bigotry is even more painful to watch on video format lol. No matter though, Im sure the DTG subreddit will be full of his fanboys defending every extreme comment and stating that DTG’s counterpoints were made in “bad faith” and “woke”, even though Chris and Matt bent over backwards to be fair to him in a way they wouldn’t for other gurus. After all, Chris you do consider yourself a semi-fan of him. But Im sorry to say that I find Harris to be a despicable cretin. Maybe because im non-white, his fawning embrace of Douglas Murray and western supremacist rhetoric caries a lot more valence. Some of his fans are reasonable but there are a lot more who have basically replaced religion and god with worshipping their atheist intellectual messiah.

Laura Reinger

For someone that claims self awareness Sam Harris is unable to be aware of the fact that he never lets anyone finish a point and frequently shows his arrogance on many subjects that he seems not really to know a lot about. I find a lot of his sentences could be cut down by removing nonsensical word salads and I think he is morally bankrupt when it comes to the Palestine people. I appreciate how well you both did with the interview but fucking hell that was a hard listen for me.

collapsing

Another sign of the DTG curse… Brand off on Rogan leaving the ‘left’ , Harris demented on details, Murray - say no more. Weinstein (s) . Carlson praising Putin week of Navalny death . It’s getting worse and not that funny anymore. Think harder pushback needed tbh

Scott Rowe

Pretty cool, maybe pull back the focus a touch on the video subjects.

Scott Rowe

As fans of you all, that was a tough watch. Chris holds himself and others to a high standard that few are likely to meet, Sam appears to be less and less willing to concede on any points. Matt was handsome and has a lovely accent.

Mike M

The talk aboiut the self doesn't interest me but Sam's point about the ultimate goal of the two sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict is one that Hitchens made. The ultimate goal of the Palestinians is to eliminate israel. If you look at what kids are taught in school in Palestine it is perpetuating the extremism. I agree with Sam that it is not possible to reach a compromise under those conditions.

Cynthia Savit

This makes me want to go back and listen to Sam’s debate with Ezra Klein from a few years ago. Ezra really knew how to deal with Sam’s windbaggery and didn’t allow him to talk over him.

Brian Gough

The parallels with the conflict in Northern Ireland aren't exactly a neat fit, and there are unique differences, but I spat out my proverbial tea when Harris said —  "The troubles would have been much more troublesome […] if you added a fanatical commitment to martyrdom" Yes, imagine if the IRA committed to starving themselves to death in an act of protest thus beatifying themselves on gable walls all over NI and beyond. @Chris, how did you let this one go!? : )

Saad Ahmed

I know I am way behind on this but I finally got a chance to listen to the interview. The first part was painful. It was death by unnecessary analogies. Also at the very end, I wish they would have had brough up Ayaan Hirsi Ali's recent "conversion" to Christianity. I don't know how you can continue to lionize her after such a dishonest move.

Saad Ahmed

I am little late to the part but good god that first part was painful. Just death by endless analogies that don't make his point any clearer. I love he easily he called all anthropologists delusional on the subject without any hint of irony. Also, I wish they would have had the chance to bring up Ayaan Hirsi Ali's recent "conversion" to Christianity. I don't understand how you can continue to lionize her after such a intellectually dishonest move

David Moore

I took a few days after listening to this to collect my thoughts, but I think it was unreasonable to give Harris a platform to present such extreme bigotry with minimal push back. On the issue of Israel's invasion of Gaza Harris, is a right-wing extremist. You added an introduction mentioning you disagree with the claim that "London has fallen to jihadists," which is good because that is an insane take, but Harris also claimed that ethnically cleansing Gaza was a reasonable position if only Palestinians and other Arabs would agree to it. I don't think Harris is self aware enough to know, but he is literally recreating the anti-Jewish propaganda of the Nazis who also claimed that they were defending European civilization from the Judeo-Bolsheviks, that ethnically cleansing Europe was a preferred and humane solution if only the Allied powers would agree to take in expelled Jews, etc. It was two years into WWII that the Nazi program of ethnic cleansing developed under war conditions into extermination camps. Harris's claim that ethnic cleansing and genocide are completely different things puts him far closer than he'd like to admit to bog-standard holocaust deniers. It's no coincidence that Douglas Murray went viral after October 7, backed by several gurus like Konstantin Kisin, for his claim that Hamas were worse than the Nazis because the Nazis felt shame over the holocaust and tried to hide what they were doing. This was Nazi apologetics that denied the extremely public pogroms, mass shootings and brutality conducted particularly by the Waffen-SS. It's in this mess of neo-Nazi shit that Harris finds his cothinkers on Gaza. I know you've generally avoided Israel's invasion of Hamas, since you aren't experts and feel on such a serious topic it's best to not swing in with uninformed opinions. But now that you've brought it in with Harris I think you should also bring on an actual expert. I have no idea if he'd be up for it, but I'd recommend Elad Nehorai, who in addition to being an expert on antisemitism has specifically commented on how figures you've covered like Elon Musk have promoted the most extreme antisemitic conspiracy theories while praising Israel.

Peter Moon

Hi Decoders, I would like to get your opinion about Harris' "thought experiment", the one with the magic wand, and peoples' real intentions, and what they would reveal.. This struck me as infantile. In my line of work we say "good intentions are not enough". Outcomes and impact is what matters. Does it matter that cocaine users in Amsterdam don't intend to contribute to violence in e.g. Colombia ? Or if they'd have a magic wand, that the Dutch would turn Colombia into South Korea ? If i'd have a magic wand, I would eliminate all the worlds animal suffering, while I regularly eat meat. My wife also thinks that my intentions don't really matter. But how I act..... Help out please ! Matt brought up a similar point, about Cambodia, but Harris wasn't interested. Another point is the polling-data that Harris keeps using. Does he know about psychometrics, reliability & validity of questions, and bias, especially regarding topics where virtue signalling is likely ? Also, I just finished listening to the latest Harris podcast, with Rory Stewart, on Islam. We could say it's courageous of Harris to broadcast that interview. My takeaway is that he self-imploded. The bias became so evident. He had so little to say. What is Harris actually an expert in?

Par 🇨🇦

I’m shocked and horrified to hear the strident manner you continuously interrupted Sam! He could barely put a thought together and suddenly there goes Chris, rudely interrupting, again. And it wasn’t even to steelman Sam’s deep and sophisticated thoughts. The interruptions were self indulgent quips against a man explaining the very substance of nature. Okay okay I’m joking. Sam is insufferable