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Buffy 7x10 - full reaction (Patreon)

Published:
2023-05-03 16:00:04
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

an amazing episode except for that glaring plothole 

link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7lpgxqoc86qckf8/Buffy%20710.mkv?dl=0

Files

Comments

Ron Fehr

My guess, and this is totally a guess, is that the bathroom scene was necessary(?) to give Spike a reason to leave town to get his soul. Sorry for mentioning the scene. I know you're trying to put it past you.

Ron Fehr

Some lovely surprises for you this episode. The return of Giles. Buffy's dream with Joyce. And of course Drusilla.

Robin Davies

As another reactor said, the First Evil can't be all bad if it blew up the Watchers' Council.

zerofk

Huh, I guess Giles found his Head. It's so nice to see Drusilla again. The physicality Juliet Landau brings to the role just makes me happy. And yes that drowning scene doesn't make sense. The show sometimes implies that if Buffy dies, a new slayer will be called. We don't really know - her death at the end of season 5 was a "mystical death", so maybe it didn't count? We do know that Faith was called when Kendra died, so we can assume that if Faith dies a new slayer will be called. But we don't really know what would happen if Buffy died.

Raven Dark

Comments section on last episode: Lexi, how could you forget about Giles!? Lexi this episode: GilesGilesGilesGiles! Me: I think we've given Lexi a complex. Buffy, season one, Prophecy Girl: Giles, I'm sixteen years old. I don't want to die. Buffy, season 7, Bring On the Night: I'm standing on the mouth of hell, and it is gonna swallow me whole. She's come so far. Watching this episode, sometimes it feels like a whole other show. The character building in this show is amazing.

Michael Bauer

They did kinda make Spike evil after "that scene"... He wasn't trying to atone - he decided to get rid of the chip so "that bitch can get what's coming to her" or something to that effect. That the demon gave him his soul back was not his intention... even though he kinda makes it seem that way now. After all... it's not like Spike hasn't done horrific things all throughout - like gruesome murder. But Buffy and others conviently ignored that side of Spike. That scene is a gut-wrenching reminder of what's actually inside there. But there *is* conflict within him - he is torn between really enjoying being evil, and the insightful, sensitive character he inherited from his previous human self. He used to be able to just use the insight and sensitivity to be better at torturing and enjoying it... but that changed with Buffy. Yet he was so unaccustomed to affection, drawn to Buffy and hurt by her using him - and most of all so used to going all evil when he is aroused and getting what he wants by (usually lethal) force that this is what he resorted to in that scene. For a sickening minute, the "old Spike" reared his ugly head again... after which he was indeed disgusted - for a bit, before he thought he'd commit to doing harm and being evil again... only to get his soul back. It really is twisting one's heart to watch Spike be so evil and cool, clever and insightful, then turning into a more sensitive character with a good side, then being so horrifyingly reminded of all the potential for evil in him, worrying he will go all in with the demon again when he goes to get his chip removed - then watching him suffer and kinda redeem himself again. It's a freaking roller-coaster of excitement and disgust, for sure. I totally get wanting to not think too much about all that after a while.

Collinson

Wow I'd never thought of your idea of the Warren and Spike comparison and I think it is actually a really good point. I had similar feelings with Xander and Anya I feel that them being a happy couple would have made the others downfall more pronounced. Which would have suited the Whedon idea for season 6 of humans are their own worst enemy and them being worse than demons in some ways. Also this episode has the record for the worst British accents on TV ever.

Adoreandu

There's one thing I want to point out to you about BtVS before we never mention the bathroom scene ever again, and that's the fact that it was a TV show, like most, with multiple writers working on different episodes. And those different writers had different ideas about lots of things, including whether Buffy and Spike should get together, whether it's possible for a vampire without a soul to love, what a soulless vampire would or wouldn't do, could or couldn't feel. This lead to some inconsistencies in Spike's behavior, such as him acting very much like a compassionate person in Fool For Love, being followed immediately by him stealing Buffy's clothes to smell in the next episode like a creep. The way I found to reconcile those things within the show is to separate Spike the Demon from Spike the Man with a demon inside him. To me, when he didn't have a soul, that meant the Demon would often take control of his actions, regardless of what the Man felt about those actions. By getting his soul back, now the Man is fully in control. So, bathroom scene, that was the Demon taking over, I hate that guy passionately. But he's not the same person that Spike the Man is now, with a soul. I don't hold that against him any more than I hold Jenny's death against Angel. It wasn't him. And yes, this is inconsistent with the metaphor of vampires as alcoholics, but it's a fantasy TV show, give it a little slack! ;)

Britney

We've finally reached the arrival point of the potentials. Unpopular opinion here, but I love the whole potential slayer story arc. I get why people don't like it though, such as bringing in new characters in a show's final season (instead of solely focusing on the already existing characters), as well as other reasons that I can't get into yet. I'm curious to see what your thoughts will be as the season progresses.

Ron Fehr

Actually, don't be too surprised that this episode took place around Christmastime. That was the main reason for showing the date at the beginning of Conversations With Dead People, to let us know that Christmas was near, therefore the Christmas tree lot would be open.

Ron Fehr

Quite possibly, when the council found out that Faith was the new Slayer, they must have assigned her a watcher right away. Because she does mention, in her introductory episode, that Kakistos killed her original watcher. I can't imagine Faith having a watcher before she became the next Slayer. She was just too wild.

Stargazer1682

Vampires may not breathe, but they still have lungs; the water can still get inside. And strictly speaking, there's some unexplored nuance in the whole "vampires don't breathe" deal; with them being able to talk or smoke. Air has to move into the body and out to do either. So A ) they can make their lungs function to that extent, though that undermines Angel not performing CPR in season 1. Or B ) in becoming a vampire, they develop the demon equivalent of lungs, which replaces their human organs; possibly existing out of phase with our dimension. I tend to lean towards B, especially since we saw there was more to Angel's demonic form when visiting another dimension (Pylea); suggesting that vampires are transdimensional and their human form anchors them to Earth. In this case, vampires maybe don't conventionally breathe to stay alive, but they do have a comparable function that allows them to talk or smoke; only what they breath out may not be in this dimension or if it is, it may not be "air" you'd want to breathe in.

Stargazer1682

I love how ambiguous they make Joyce's appearance. Is it the First? Is it just a dream? It's perfectly balanced in the way it doesn't tell you.

Stargazer1682

Kennedy mentioned that the Bringers killed her Watcher; so at least *some* of the Potentials were already in the know and under the Council's watch. We don't know if Faith's experience was like Kendra's, but we do know she had a Watcher, who was killed by Kakistos and that that seriously messed her up. Really, Kendra's situation makes the most sense as the standard for the average Potential identified by the Council. Given what we know about the Watcher's Council, they were very calculated and controlling when it came to the Slayer. Kendra was exactly the sort of Slayer the Council might want out of a Potential - by the book, doesn't questions orders, died young... Buffy's exactly the type of Slayer the Council would have desperately wanted to avoid; willful, independent, too many outside connections to the world. It would make the most sense for the Council to have a pool of Potentials, potentially even narrowing it down to those Potentials they've deemed to have the most potential to become a Slayer, if that can be gauged. They could then stack the odds in their favor that whomever the next girl chosen would already have been found by the Council and trained in their methods (indoctrinated). Buffy would most likely have been an outlier, a Potential the Council either never identified or didn't think likely to be called. There could even be more to why she wasn't identified before being called. Not all Potentials would turn out like Kendra, but they had their methods of control - like the Cruciamentum when they turned 18. But this does present some disturbing implications. The Council left as little as possible to chance, and if they put Kendra in the care of her Watcher at such a young age she doesn't remember her parents (also meaning that she had no contact with her parents and was raised by her Watcher) it's plausible this was standard for most if not all Potentials the Council took an interest in. Kendra only had the Council's word that her parents consented to this arrangement, much less saw it as "a great honor;" and we know how they like to get their way at any cost. But it also raises the question, what happens to them later? Surely, not all Potentials are called, and if they put the Slayer through the Cruciamentum, which was all but designed to kill them before they get to be old enough to become independent; what did they do to the Potentials that were reaching adulthood or maybe lost their potential?

Stargazer1682

There's really no reason to assume Buffy couldn't call another Slayer, just because we haven't seen one yet. There has been no implications that a Slayer can only call one (and by all accounts, Buffy dying multiple times is unprecedented for a Slayer) and she retains all of her other Slayer abilities, so why would there be an exception? In the season 3 episode "Enemies" when Angel pretended to lose his soul to find out info on the Mayor, the Mayor even told Angel and Faith not to kill Buffy too soon, because he didn't want another Slayer called, since "they can't all turn out like my Faith."

Judson

How rude of the potential slayers to interrupt Buffy just she was about to hug Giles. But hey, at least they made sure he didn't have to lift a finger by carrying his books for him and helping him drive the car.

Judson

I agree with the apprehension you have with Spike's character after the bathroom scene. Within the show's universe, it absolutely makes sense that soulless Spike is a separate person and the person he is right now should not be condemned for it. But as a piece of media, you just know some people took away the message of "my abusive partner can totally change for me if I just stand by him/her a little longer."

chelsea

“i’m standing on the mouth of hell and it’s gonna swallow me whole. and it’ll choke on me.” is my second favourite quote of the entire show (my first is in the finale.) it’s so good. i love this episode.

Florence

My interpretation of Spike's sense of guilt even as a soulless vampire is that he was still always driven by selfish reasons. So he genuinely was obsessed with Buffy and 'loved' her in the only way he was capable and that meant whenever he did something that meant that Buffy would not love him back he would feel angry with himself (and lets be honest, quite often her). He was perhaps more 'human' than other vampires we've seen but still not capable of real human guilt and moral judgement.

Jarah Bethany

Oh no I’m caught up, now what?!

RavenLord

Drowning won't kill Spike. But it will fill his dead lungs with water -- I'm also not sure *why* he's swallowing the water -- and briefly incapacitate him, cause pain with the pressure in his chest. I haven't finished your reaction (about halfway through), so you might have already covered this next plothole, but why in the heck does Giles think it a good idea to have all the potential Slayers come to Buffy's house, where the First Evil knows she lives and has already been proven to be able to appear to them there, when all it has to do is have its Bringers to the SAME THING they did to the Council; blow them all up at once! Giles stated outright all the potential Slayers are on their way to Sunnydale, and that's just a bad idea to have everyone clumped in the same place at the same time, LOL. I love that you've seen The Vampire Diaries and also sad that we won't be able to see your reaction to them. :) Have you tried True Blood? Could that possibly be a reaction in future after Buffy? Just putting that out there!

RavenLord

As awesomely creepy as the Ubervamp is, I don't like that the writers gave it the ability to use martial arts and parkour. It's a *primordial* vampire! As Giles said, it's the Neanderthal equivalent to the modern vampire. It would fight brutally, viciously, tirelessly, and dirty. No fancy martial arts kicks and parkour off the walls. In which case, Buffy's ability to fight with finesse and ingenuity would give her a chance against it. I really wish they had done that instead, so we could see a stark style contrast. The combat in this is way too slick.

smylyface

It's not a plothole, it just wasn't explained very well. Vampires do breathe. They just can't produce oxygen. The heart oxygenates your blood but vampires hearts don't beat, therefore their bodies can't produce oxygen. That's why they can smoke but not provide CPR.

Cory James

I dunno if anyone has mentioned this but that Spike bathroom scene was intentionally done to make you hate Spike cause JOSS hated Spike and was furious that the audience loved Spike and wanted him around. I think James Marsters even did an interview later saying that at one point Joss pushed him into a wall and told him threateningly that Spike was going to die. (which I say because you already saw the end of the season) But yeah...as with Cordelia, I reject all attempts Joss has made to assassinate a character due to his own dislike.