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Angel 4x17 - full reaction (Patreon)

Published:
2023-07-05 16:00:05
Imported:
2026-06
Tags:

Content

biggest betrayal ever!!!

link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sgdwhvbnzce1usa/Angel%20417.mkv?dl=0

Files

Comments

Ron Fehr

So you finally found out about Skip. I was sure tempted to tell you about him, but I respect you not wanting any spoilers.

Chris Carman

Gina Torres was a mesmerizingly AWESOME 'higher being.' To L's early point, yes, Charisma Carpenter got unfairly *targeted* and then some--- and, over time, I'm only more impressed by what good work she did anyway. A brief/mild defense of Connor (and his inability to ask questions): hey, he was raised in exile by a kidnapping RELIGIOUS ZEALOT. :D Safe to say: critical thinking skills weren't really on the menu.

Brendan O'Connor

I prefer to think like Gunn regarding this master plan manipulating all of their lives, I think Skip wanted to get into their heads that they had no chance at stopping what was coming.

zerofk

"My sweet" being the thing that tipped Angel off makes no sense at all. First of all, she said "my sweet baby", which is very different from "my sweet". Secondly, Darla called Angelus "my sweet boy" all the time. It's not like it's an uncommon combination of words. While I like that we get some explanations about the plot holes, much of it feels like the writers' justification _after_ the fact, rather than a pre-planned plot. And they even brought Skip down for this nonsense. Also, that's not the Darla I love. Her being all nice like this grates as much as Cordelia being evil does.

Stargazer1682

I ascribe to the idea that this wasn't Darla, but the First, trying to stop a rival big bad from gaining a foothold on the world.

Stargazer1682

I call BS on Skip's "everything's connection/part of the grand plan". It'd be contrived if taken seriously, but just generally smacks of of some moustache twirling villain trying to take more credit than they're due.

Stargazer1682

"Tightness of my other lips..." God bless your perversion.

Stargazer1682

I would say, make no assumptions about anything Skip has said to date as having an ounce of truth. His credibility is shot. And in fact now, in context, the episode "Birthday" can actually make sense. Because taken at face value, nothing about that episode should make sense. Cordelia has a vision of a girl in trouble, but it turns out that this trouble only happens in a so-called alternate reality, which is only created because Cordelia had that vision. But we don't even know that it WAS a legitimate altered reality, especially seeing as how Cordelia immediately wants to go to the Hyperion, even though in that reality she should have no knowledge of it, let alone any desire to go there defeating the purported purpose. But then Cordelia's wall message, which shouldn't exist in this reality is behind the wallpaper; and despite Skip's claim that someone has to be part demon to handle the visions, they show the visions driving Angel insane. Skip also leaves out one important, yet logical option in the whole bargain, which would be for Cordelia to simply give up the visions; because she could still contribute to the effort with AI without the visions and they haven't been as important to their work for a couple of years at this point. Even Cordelia being made part demon is left ambiguous. She wasn't made the same sort of demon that Doyle was; which is probably just as well, since the visions were debilitating for him too. The whole arc of that episode steers to Cordelia to make the decision to become part demon, and do so like it was her own idea and choice; but the whole thing is actually very contrived, until you account for it being one big manipulation. By that token, the so-called ascension probably wasn't all it was made out to be either. Just that she was surrounded by white light in some other dimension - yet she was bored, whereas when Buffy was in heaven she just felt content. In all likelihood, wherever she was sent, it's conceivable that it was some kind of incubation for this entity to take greater hold in Cordelia; a process that at the very least started when Cordelia agreed to be made part demon, potentially before that. Why or how she was sent back is a question mark. Maybe this entity was close enough to where it could take over Cordelia and begin the next phase of its plan; maybe some other power kicked her out. Notably in "Spin the Bottle," when trying to restore Cordelia's memories, everyone is euphoric - except for Cordelia, who says they have to stop and then smashes the urn. It's plausible that THIS was the real Cordelia with her full memories and understanding of what was happening; and smashing the urn was her attempt to prevent whatever this is from rising. That would also mean tha to date, that was the last time we've seen or heard the real Codelia since her ascension at the end of season 3.

Jontor11

Lexi, I love that you are still in to this. It IS exciting, and it took a turn like hell in this episode. Usually, people are just furious that the writers destroyed Cordelia's character, personally I think it is a pity that they destroyed Connor's character. Anyway, I choose to believe that we lost Cordy in episode 3x11 'Birthday'. That's the episode when Skip 'levelled' her up. And it makes sense if you rewatch season 3. Cordy is not really herself in the later episodes (e.g. that look she got when she kisses Groo over the magic seal). Everything else Skip said is bs imo. Well, that is what I choose to believe. Love that Gina Torres is brought into the show. Firefly got cancelled around this time and Whedon brought her in. Again, DON'T watch the opening credits of Angel season 5x01.

Stargazer1682

I would also question whether "the powers that be" even truly exist. The show (and the audience) tend to take for granted that the term started out as a way for Doyle to describe whoever or whatever "sends" him his visions, when he didn't actually have a name to otherwise apply credit. But it's not like someone came to him and said, "this is how it all works," it was meant to be an ambiguous description, because he didn't know. Then characters from Wolfram and Hart also began using the term and it's taken on a mythology of its own. Granted, there are definitely "high beings" - entities that exist at another level relative at least to humans. Glory for example, as a god, albeit with a little g, would fall into the category of a higher being. D'Hoffryn, who's basically a genie/pseudo-god with the ability to bend reality with a wish, would be a higher being; and maybe his harem or whatever you want to call his troop of vengeance demons. But are there "powers that be"? One would assume there would probably be higher beings fighting for good, although their definition of "good" could potentially be subjective. But there isn't a very strong indication of the type of hyper powers steering events the way that's suggested of how the visions would tie in. Yes, the visions exist, but does that necessarily mean they came from someone or that they're part of a "plan"? Because that would actually be kind of shitty, seeing all the people that power or powers feel don't deserve Angel's or AI's help. The visions are ambiguous and even at times people end up dying, all because a follow-up vision that might have helped save them never came. Like the woman Angel met in the very first episode of the series. Now on the other hand, Cordelia's mind was opened up to all the people in need during the season 1 finale; which at the very least suggests she's tapped into something that would be aware of the events going on around them. So what if the visions were never coming from someone else, what if it was Doyle or Cordelia? If they were connected on a subconscious level, where they would have some level of perception of the future, their subconscious could consider how events *might play out with their intervention; and the vision were only triggered when they had the best shot affecting the best potential outcome.

pat on

the powers that be were probably manipulated just like team Angel there was a point where Darla wanted to tell Conner something but stopped herself so there must be rules that we don't know about.

pat on

at some point you said what they did to Cordelia's character is probably why people hat season 4 that wasn't it for me, i hate all the melodrama and the overall cheapness of the show they fix that with season 5 probably because Buffy was over and they had more money.

Ron Fehr

I liked Gunn's little talk with Fred, while they had Skip in custody. He sounded like a philosopher.

Ron Fehr

Cordy: "Anointed? Whose been filling your head with big confusing words?" You have, Cordy. Well, confusing thoughts anyway.

Ron Fehr

Actually, I think Skip also said that Cordy would end up in a vegetative state if she did survive the birth. Either way, not good.

Garrick Smalley

About what happened with Charisma: It totally sucks. Life is complicated. On the one hand Joss can be a boss that makes working for him a hellscape on the other he can inspire loyalty like he did on Firefly. On another he can over work himself so much it cost him a marriage. Life is complicated.

Captain Hammer

This season is still my favorite main storyline of the Buffyverse. Not my favorite for the main characters or character development but the villains and mysteries and how everything comes together is so well done.

Megan

Just deleted my comment b/c I worried that it might contain a (very tiny) spoiler, depending on where your head is at. Sorry about that, will be more careful next time.

Cory James

I realize Connor did bad at the beginning of the episode but Cordelia set him up for it in the previous episode when he questioned her. She said something like "Now I know I can trust you completely and I know you would do anything for our baby." Unfortunately, having Cordelia by the throat is harmful to the baby and she already made him think Angel was a threat to it which is why Angelus had to be killed. Let's not forget Connor is like 17 here. Definitely, NOT 18 like Cordy claimed earlier in the season. I just can't hate him for being groomed his entire life by EVERYONE. No one has ever taught him to think critically, just follow instructions, and hold the hate of others. He listens to everyone but Angel because the only thing he has been raised to know by Holtz is that Angel is an animal and will do nothing but lie sweetly to his face. Connor has only been around for a year. as opposed to the 16 years in a hell dimension with Holtz. I'm so glad I've finally gotten to this part. I love these last couple of episodes lol. Gina Torres is a phenomenal actress.