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Angel 5x3 - full reaction (Patreon)

Published:
2023-08-30 16:00:04
Imported:
2026-06
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these people are so nasty

link: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rr94ks5nr2bebwva4hgo6/Angel-503.mkv?rlkey=9y1ry9ursewrg7ikp0o5e4l90&dl=0

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Comments

Ron Fehr

You're right about three nights of the full moon. I suppose the night that she was bitten counts as the first night. And since Angel and Gunn's conversation took place the following day, there were only two nights left, like Gunn said.

Stargazer1682

"But you don't have a soul, that's a demon controlling your body. None of it is your fault." Therein lies a fundamental flaw with that premise, because the entirety of Angel's character arc, this series as well as Darla's and Spike's stories to date are hinged on the exact opposite of that. Angel, Darla or Spike wouldn't deserve to feel guilt when re-ensouled (or made human again, as Darla was) if it "wasn't really them" when they were soulless vampires. Despite Giles in season 1 of Buffy suggesting vampirism was a form of possession, and Buffy parroting this in "Lie to Me," this hasn't been born out by either series. Harmony is a vampire without a soul, but it's still *Harmony*. Dru's mental state, which was the result of Angel's abuse when she was human continues affecting her as a vampire. Both shows have plumbed the depths of what it's meant for Darla and Spike to go from having a soul then not having one to having souls again; as well as their concept of self and identity. Spike is still Spike with or without a soul, more so than Angel or even Darla were. He's probably had the least identity crisis. The crux of Spike's trigger implanted by the First was him turning then having to kill his own mother, which a ) he wouldn't have done and b ) wouldn't have mattered to him if William the human and William the freshly turned vampire weren't one in the same. There's an even deeper psychological rabbit hole to go down with Liam/Angel and his issues with humanity and being turned. It's perfectly reasonable for a Slayer or the Watchers to believe the conceit that it's not really the person; and Buffy's encounter with Angelus in "Innocent" is exactly the reason it would be needed. You can't hesitate or see vampires as anything other than a monster when hunting them. If any part of you believes there's humanity you can reach is something they can exploit. Hesitating to kill them gives them an opening to kill you and/or others; and a Slayer or a Watcher can't afford that. So a mentality that dehumanizes them would be necessary. In addition to all of that, we have Ryan, the boy from season 1's "I've Got You Under My Skin," who was a living, human boy, who had no soul - but he still had his own consciousness. This set the precedent that the soul and consciousness were not the same thing; with Buffy's "Who Are You?" and Angel's "Carpe Noctem" establishing the consciousness as its own supernatural matrix that can be physically moved between bodies. "I've Got You Under My Skin" also established that humans don't need a "demon' inside of them to make them evil; the simple fact of not having a soul can make a human *child* so evil that it can make one of the worst demons beg for death after trying to possess him. Soulless humans are the monsters that monsters fears - the implications of which, in my opinion, aren't explored as much as it deserves. Now, from an ethical perspective, should vampires be held accountable for their actions if they lack the capacity to regulate their behavior? I used to lean no, but I've come to think there's probably more nuance. Because it's not that they're incapable of willfully doing good, because they can - if they *want to*. It's mostly if it's in their best interest or mitigates negative consequences for them; fitting in with them operating on the pain-pleasure principal. They can't feel remorse about what they do without a soul, but they can still feel pain and respond to incentive; which means they can self-regulate. But they will exploit every opportunity to their greatest benefit, which is also why they can't be trusted; and without remorse, things can go sideways quickly, which makes them incredibly dangerous. But they do possess self-control, it just doesn't get used unless there's something in it for them. So on the balance, Spike or any other vampire going to hell is not a stretch. Which also assumes one needs to be "deserving" of going to hell in the Buffyverse; which I'm not convinced is a prerequisite (within this narrative or the real world - in the real world, I don't think you need to be dead, much less "deserve" it to be in hell). It's also why I think it's entirely plausible Buffy's soul could have ended up stuck in hell when she died; and arguably the only reason it wasn't, is because her being pulled out of heaven by her friends was worse. But I do have a theory that when vampires are "killed," they don't actually just turn into dust. The dust is just a particulate that gets left behind, as their bodies get pulled into a hell dimension that the original vampires retreated to; and they actually continue living there indefinitely.

Ron Fehr

I don't know if you ever watched Star Trek: Enterprise, but the actor playing the werewolf doctor also played the alien Dr. Phlox on the previously mentioned show.

zerofk

Fred: "Girls, guys, puppies. Angel's pretty much an equal-opportunity saver." Mostly young blonde women though. I like this episode. Nina is nice, and the bad guys are extremely not nice. I never interpreted it as having to eat her raw - I just thought they'd cook the meat as soon as she turned. There's a throwaway line at the end that implies they shut down the "restaurant" or whatever you want to call it. So I guess the doctor won't be eaten at all.

x_Rhi_x

This episode is a bit weirdly written imo. Spike is kinda annoying (and im a huge spike fan) with the constant nagging and guilt tripping fred. Yeah he was desperate and fading away, but nina also needed help in a limited time period too. I agree it was also weird that Fred wasn't super bothered about spike, AND that the gang weren't phased about killing the initial werewolf, or helping the betrayer guy. Like, Yeah he was a bad guy, but they know he will be a werewolf and should at least monitor him like with nina, if not for his own safety then for the other people he could hurt. At least the mention at the end that the restaurant gets shut down, so maybe they do do something about him after the episode ends. Oh and just a little note, near the start where you say "isn't it 3 nights not 2?" Yes it's 3, but they weren't counting the night nina got bit, they were saying there's 2 MORE nights left where nina would be a werewolf

Ron Fehr

I can only guess that Fred's 'flippant' attitude towards Spike's situation was because she didn't realize how serious it was. It was only when he had been gone for quite a while that it became more real to her. And her last words to him showed that she was not going to blow him off again.

Stargazer1682

I have mixed feelings about Angel killing the initial werewolf at the beginning of the episode or the main character reactions to it. I don't think I gave it much thought before, but I get the sentiment that they should care more; because like Oz and like Nina, becoming a werewolf is a raw deal, they're still a regular human most of the time, it doesn't even take much to turn someone, unlike a vampire and the whole sucking thing. But on the balance, he was a loose werewolf and a threat to really anyone he encountered. It's not his fault, per se, because he doesn't have conscious awareness of what's happening or what he's doing (yet, according to Verucca), but that doesn't change the threat; it doesn't change what happened to Nina. And from Angel's perspective, he's kind of right, when Nina's response when she recognizes him is, "you're the one who saved me," and Angel's response was, "No, I was too late." He saved her from potentially greater harm or death, but he was too late from some serious damage happening that she's not fully aware of. It's almost like Angel's telling her she's been SA'd and didn't know it yet. All of which is to say, the guy didn't necessarily "deserve" to die, but it's a calculated, collateral damage. Wesley said it best in season 2 to Gunn; if you try to save everyone, you risk getting everybody killed. There's some degree of possibility Angel could have subdued the wolf and put him in a cage, but the priority to protect the woman the wolf was attacking and any other potential innocent bystanders, let alone his own team, is greater than pulling his punches in the hopes of bringing this one in alive. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."

Stargazer1682

Cordelia being the "love of his life" is definitely a stretch. I won't be so bold as to unequivocally say he never said that, because such declarations are often quickly disproven, but I don't remember that ever happening. It's been said of Angel about Buffy, but I also don't know for certain he said that himself either. He was quick to kiss Buffy not long after settling the stuff with Jasmine, even as Cordelia lay in a coma, so Cordelia must not mean THAT much to him romantically... And I'm more than okay with that.

Jesse baldo

Spike never actually said he was going all the way to hell to fred, at the end of the episode he even tells fred 'off to nowhere' His explanation was kind of confusing but i think its more like he goes to this in between place where he feels like he has to hang on with all his strength and if he lets go THEN he will go to hell because remember he said 'its like i'm straddling both sides about to fall into the ground beneath me' He knows that since it feels like he going downward it must be hell So he needs to have hope and strength, It would have been truly horrible if spike was going back and forth between actual hell, but its left ambiguous for a reason

Cory James

It seems so much weirder to me that Angel is STILL into blonde high school girls. (Nina says she is supposed to be ceramics class, Fred acts like her teenage best friend) I get that he is still supposed to look the same age as he died but David does not lol. Why tf are his adult friends encouraging that?