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Patreon Exclusive: Power with Lauren and Dr. John (Patreon)

Published:
2025-01-22 01:33:22
Imported:
2026-06
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Content

On todays Patreon episode, Lauren and Dr. John discuss a Patreon members question about power and women in the LDS church.

Files

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Comments

JenAus

Count down is on … 25 minutes til my lunch break and then I can listen freely!! 😃

Gleebart

I love to hear you two banter❣️🇨🇦🇨🇦

Cindy Johnson

I send Gleebart’s feelings❣️

Bradie Barton

Listening to the both of you, talk actual sense is a refreshing change from the usual rubbish online x

Kage's Mom

I believe leading with love begins with parents and early childhood t

Kage's Mom

leaders leading in a loving way by example.

Lenny Wen

I think if the church or the teaching doesn't make motherhood a woman's sole purpose, it might make things a bit different. It's not only motherhood; the teaching requires PERFECT motherhood and parenthood to be shown to the world. It's the same with the IBLP , the Duggar family; they not only have to show the world how well-behaved the children but the mother is required to perceive a certain way. So in my opinion, not only the power but the facade of perfection is also the problem.

JenAus

Lauren, rock the birthday month and birthday year!! Now, are you a 1980 model? If so, so am I!! Great year!! Thoughts to you as you continue to support your family. Travel safely 💕

TexasTCMom

Praying during this hard time with your family.

Buffy Nakachi

Birthday month is better than birthday week

Rebecca Hayes

In the abstract, I think leading with love is something we should strive for. In practice, though, I don’t think it’s really something we can achieve. Who decides what love means to someone else? Love is too subjective and personal to everyone for there to ever be a standard. Love these conversations! Thank you both for continuing to bring us this content despite all of the things you all have going on. ❤️

Alisha Kc

Brene Brown does a good job with teaching leadership. I think a big part of her success has been that she teaches emotional literacy and that trickles down into communicating your own emotions and understanding others. I don’t think Ruby is emotionally literate.

Brenda

Find those little joys and hold on tight.

TMac

My husband is teasing me because I started dancing and screaming while making dinner when I saw you answered my question! I apologize for opening the quagmire, but here's what I learned. People who crave power (Lori, Ruby, etc.) are not the ones who should be given power, it's why so many of our politicians are corrupt I imagine. But leadership should be more attainable for women in the LDS church. I believe if it were, women like Megan who has a lot to offer, would maybe not have become disenfranchised. Although maybe if Lori were allowed to be a bishop and have her special relationship with Jesus, she may not have gone off the deep end, or maybe not, never mind, I'm not going to start to try to get inside her head, I know, Dr. J, it's complicated! Thanks for the discussion Mathias Fam!

Cindy Ginter

John is right. The church is not structured around love in the first place if it oppresses a group based on gender. A loving leadership style involves collaboration which encourages affiliation.

Christine Balog

Women should of course be given the opportunity to lead. However, the opportunity is earned, not given. They say a true leader is one who teaches others to lead or gives them that opportunity. Ruby would never have earned the right to lead because she was all about control for herself. She did nothing to help her children learn about social and emotional skills. And she certainly did nothing to help her children learn leadership skills because that would have inhibited her own control over every little thing.

Valerie

The best teachers or leaders in any capacity lead with making those around them feel worthwhile and valued. Ruby would have been vindictive no matter what role she was in. Politician, mother, therapist or a CEO.

Katie Alosi
>>162058063

Absolutely agree! I take the month, too. 4 or 5 good weekends to celebrate. :) I do Brunches with friends, solo adventures, family time. That's the way to do it!

Katie Alosi

I love these thoughtful chats, no matter where they go.

Maggie B

Not sure leading with love is possible in the LDS church. The absolutes and hierarchy don’t provide the latitude to be a servant leader. Ex Mormon myself. I also think that LDS women are treated on the same level as children in terms of power. Men hold the power, even in families.

Laura Cruz

I love Dr. John’s laugh. 🥰

Kay Louise

Ruby, Jodi, Shana G, Kouri and Lori were all about power, sex and money. In different ways but all of them were involved in murder, conspiracy to commit murder or attempted murder by torture or neglect by abuse. I know Ruby and Jodi were not charged with attempted murder but they should have been. The church did not make them do this. I truly believe these selfish woman are incapable of love. They are incapable of being good Mothers or spouses who love their children or husbands. Shari saw the dysfunctional relationship between her Mother and Grandmother. There is also dysfunction in the Cox Family, Gardner Family and sounds like Kouri’s Mother too? Jodi’s background sounds like it had issues and we see the background of Ruby and her Family. I think the church has its flaws and should denounce the behavior of these woman, certain books and teachings and enforce the law of any member who breaks the law. It should teach any member especially any in a calling of any kind any abuse is not acceptable and should be reported to law enforcement. The teachings of the church are what they are and every one has free agency to join or leave the church. It also has affiliated with people like Tim Ballard and authors of books that have caused harm. People like Jodi, referring members for counseling. This is not acceptable and the church should speak out against it. As far as power of woman in the church, we know there are woman missionaries, woman teachers, as in Sunday school, young adults etc.. relief society . There are other churches who only have priests, ministers rabbi etc that are only male. Religions that even require woman to cover themselves. I actually think these woman think they can do whatever and they are above the law and religion. I guess it boils down to corruption and we see it everywhere. Politics, religion, law/legal system, business etc…. Corruption because people are corrupted because it is never enough, never enough money, power and yes even sex. Discontent. By the way, I think people like Ruby and Lori are incapable of real love. They only love themselves!

Bonnie Schoeneman-Dilley

Brene Brown teaches leadership with emphasis on honesty, authenticity, empathy.

Vala Hauksdóttir

John , I am wondering if you could talk about Jordan Peterson, What’s your opinion of him if you have one. Thanks 🫶🏻 I was thinking about him when you mentioned leading with love and compassion, My take on him is that he’s that kind of a leader But I would love to hear your thoughts .

Alissa Spillman

I belong to the. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints/mormons. Here are a few of the thoughts I had throughout listening to this recording. *Call it blind faith, but I believe there are reasons behind what is asked of us as members. Sometimes what is asked or even what is not asked of us is hard to understand but you have to have faith that God loves you and what we experience in this life is all for our good. *There are plenty of opportunities for women to lead in the church. The roles may be different but it’s still leadership. *It is the goal to lead with love. No one that lives on this earth is perfect. You will not find a perfect bishop, relief society president, apostle etc, but it is always the goal to lead with love. *The children aged 11 and up may have the opportunity to serve as leaders over classes/smaller groups of individuals. They are taught in these capacities to lead with love. *There is a spiritual aspect that is missing from this discussion. I realize that this is not the platform for a spiritual discussion. That said, it is difficult for others to understand if they aren’t spiritually minded. And that is not to knock anyone that doesn’t understand. We are all different. I just hope that people understand that the few people, both men and women, who have ended up in the headlines, do not represent the religion as a whole. There are a lot of amazing members who are great people. Are they perfect…absolutely not. Do they try to grow and become better as they progress through this life, of course. Will people have negative experiences with some members? For sure. But as a whole we all try. I’m not going to stop listening and being a member of this group because I genuinely enjoy the topics, but I just had to put my two cents out there. I apologize for the lengthy post.

dontmicrowavecats

What a nice question and conversation! Mormonism is somewhat of a special interest of mine and I've never heard this topic discussed from this angle. Really interesting.

Laren Dee Barton

You two are funny together, love you both. Fascinating discussion that has given me food for thought regarding my own sometimes toxic childhood. Mom could be overbearing while Dad was strong but docile. Lacked the hands on hugs and verbal words of loving. Life was about responsibility. Tough times.

Dianne Lopp

"If you love someone, set them free."

Robin Murray

I had a lightbulb moment at the end of "Succession". On the HBO podcast, Kara Swisher and Jeremy Strong (Kendall) were discussing the show and what did it all mean. Jeremy Strong references Jung: where love rules, there is no will to power, where power predominates, love is lacking. Thank you, Lauren and Dr. John, for this discussion, because it once again highlights this concept. Literature, pop culture, true crime, politics: everywhere.

Kacy Cat Artist

Sounds like you’re talking about Trump’s style of Leading with HATE!

Andrea C

LDS women can only lead children or other women. Once a boy turns 11, he has more authority in the church than his own mother. Being an ambitious woman who seeks significance in the church and in the world is tricky when you’ve observed this dynamic from the time you’re a little girl. This doesn’t excuse crime, obviously. But it’s a fascinating topic. Thanks for covering.

Kacy Cat Artist

I think you folks try to shy away from politicians and politics, but I remember when you Dr. John did a comprehensive talk about Vladimir Putin several years ago. It was so enlightening and helpful..

TMac
>>162073467

I actually asked the question and I want to be very clear, in no way do I think the members who ended up in the headlines represent the religion as a whole. Full stop. It did get me thinking though, why are so many women in LDS murdering their husbands and children, are they not allowed to get divorced? (Not that it would "explain" what's happening, just a passing question). After listening to the podcast, I learned that wasn't the case. I do find Andrea C's comment helpful, that opportunities for women who are ambitious seem to be limited. I really appreciate your perspective as a church member.

Kim

I grew up in a pretty strict LDS household. (Ex-mo for a while now) It’s so hard to discuss the church outside of their given guidelines w/o people getting defensive about the topic— Or the Church telling them any outside sources are not to be listened to (🚩?!) It’s structured like any basic, patriarchal religion/society. The religion has a long, complicated, and violent history (like any traditional Christian religion). A lot of violence has been done in the name of God/religion; the BOM is just as violent with battle and murder as the bible is. Everyone, but especially women, (I feel), is sexually repressed. So I think all the complexities of a high-demand religion that’s sexually repressing its members factor into the power struggle of these women that probably have a high amount of indoctrinated shame. It’s such a complex convo and issue, but I believe it’s extremely important to talk about the toxicity and the long-term outcomes of the repression of women who learn pretty black/white thinking from a young age. Feelings of doubt and fear are literally demonized, so it’s not hard to see how some of these “Mormon criminals’”anxiety & fears + personality and/or traumatic factors were eventually projected into drastic outcomes

Smooti Tooti

Very interesting discussion! I think one of the ways things went wrong with Ruby and Lori is that they both led lives where they were told (not just by their LDS beliefs but by the patriarchy in general) that a woman’s “place” was to be a mother and run the household. So you get these two women whose actual traits are more ambitious, ruthless, and image-focused. These would be excellent traits for people in the corporate or political sphere, but because they’re told the highest goal is motherhood, well. They become mothers, but they run their families in ways that are more like employer and employee than mother and child. Both of these women could have led very different lives where they could have found environments that worked with their personalities but they were raised to believe to only strive to motherhood. A church (or culture) that gave women options might have been better for everyone. In general, I notice a lot of people who are parents because that’s what they’re “supposed” to do rather than having an actual interest in being parents or nurturing children. I wish our culture in general but especially in religious spheres told people there are so many paths to having full, happy lives than just one or two.

Emm Vee

In my own experience in high demand religion, a Church that does not consider men and women equal in the eyes of God, and doesn't allow female clergy is at its core reinforcing the structures that lead to abuse. No one is watching the Watchmen --- I can't overstate it enough. Those structures that allowed the abuse and contributed to the feelings of powerlessness in these women led to their extreme beliefs.

Alisha Kc
>>162073467

You’re right these women don’t represent all members. I think criticizing the organizations and systems is the most important. As far as leadership opportunities for women go…Yes they do exist but they are crumbs and scraps compared to what the men do. I will never get over the fact that my 11 year old nephew experiences more “power” than I ever could experience as a female adult member. I’m not surprised you feel this way. It’s what you’ve conditioned to believe. The thing is even when given crumbs you will never be full while men feast at the table. Exmo here. I did the temple and all so very familiar with the power dynamics at play.

Valorie Dodart

Oh my gosh what a great question. Great discussion and Lauren made me LOL about Chad being a mofo who wanted to be a bishop 🤣🤣

Swannie

Lauren can have a Birthday Month, in my opinion. I smiled at her self disclosure about sharing how she doesn’t wait for others to remember her Birthday. That’s so smart and authentic. 😊

Swannie

Oh and cracks me up when Dr. John gives “…short answer is…no” other times it’s “it depends” then he gives a pause and laughs. Teehee. Makes me chuckle every time.

Alissa Spillman
>>162073467

I have no problem with the question. I’m curious too. It may be that it is my knee jerk reaction to protect what I care about. I personally don’t understand why anyone would want to be a bishop. The load is heavy and they spend a lot of time away from home and family. It’s definitely a sacrifice. Thanks for appreciating a different perspective though.

Alissa Spillman
>>162073467

I don’t really love that you label me as conditioned. You know nothing about me. I get there are differences. I’m just okay with the differences. I can see how it might be a struggle for others though. Nothing on this earth will ever be perfect and inline totally with your beliefs or mine. We just have to give space for others beliefs and lifestyles and accept them for who they are. That goes both ways for members and non members.

MC

Thoughts on whether you can teach leadership and how it’s uncommon for leaders to lead with love - in my experience in the corporate world I find that women can more commonly lead with love, but they are in leadership roles less often. Do you think this comes more naturally to women (obviously not talking about criminals like Lori, just in general), or do women have to be excellent leaders to get those roles so we see leading with love executed more often by them than male counterparts? Hopefully that makes sense

Yvonne Bennett

Asking for a friend: so, hypothetically, if one was to suggest to a 'leader' such as Donald Trump or Elon Musk or Kim Jong Un or Idi Amin or Marine Le Pen "Hey, here's an idea. I know that you're an angry MOFO with Dictator-Envy BUT, no hear me out- ever considered leading with LOVE?".... what would the arguments be for or against....?

Sara Campbell

I cannot tell you how much I needed a good laugh today and John’s response “the short answer, yes. Next question.” And the laughter after. I needed that today, thank you 😂

Danielle G.

What was the name of the professor who taught the leadership course? I didn't write it down and now I can't get the episode to replay 😫

Kay Louise

After reading some of the responses of some of our gems, take into consideration that there are successful woman in the LDS church. I could point out how LDS woman and couples have started companies like Stamp in up and LuLaRoe. There are woman in politics, music, speaking, authors etc.. I don’t know if being a leader, successful or having a business or career is always best. Do these woman lead with love? I know personally being a Mother is my most fulfilling role. Yes, once upon a time I had a quote “career”. Was it hard to juggle a family and home? Did religion play into it? I do know I love my family, my children and career. They all held and hold a time and place in my life. I think we need to ask why all these woman who had good husbands, families, careers turned to killing? Lori worked, multiple husbands, kids. Ruby had a successful husband, family and career. Kouri had a good husband, kids and was doing real estate, Shana had a successful husband, kids, money from family, Jodi was once married, kids and made a career and business. All these woman made choices to be immoral and commit crimes. They all could have got divorced, however it seems they wanted more, thought they deserved more. All wanted different men than their current husbands. They also claimed they do it for their faith. Does the LDS faith play into their lives, yes but I don’t think it is all the church. It is a perfect storm of selfishness, greed, and people thinking they can do whatever they want. Power? Laws don’t apply to them. Do you see other criminals, men and women that are religious that commit crimes? Sure there are. Do they lead with love? Something to think on.

Rita Weltsch

In my family, it starts as just the birthday, becomes birthday weekend/week, and evolves into birthday month. But only for me. Much to my husband’s chagrin. I have fun.

Rita Weltsch

This reminds me of the continuum of parenting from authoritarian to neglectful and how authoritative is shown to create the best environment for child development. Leadership is taking care of your ppl and meeting their needs as best you can while also having to consider that what they want may not always be what’s best (like spoiling a kid) and it’s having to make the tough choices and actions that others aren’t in a position to make. Real leaders who understand that don’t do it for power. They do it cuz they want to make things better in some capacity. Power comes with the job but it’s not what a good leader seeks. They seek to help their ppl be the best they can, assess and utilize their ppl’s strengths (I don’t believe in “building on your weaknesses”; no, build on your strengths and fill your weak spot with someone who has that as their strength), and making the tough calls when it comes to it, as well as the blame if it fails. To me, leadership is an innate quality, you either have it or you don’t and most ppl who end up in power positions don’t, which is why we all hate our bosses and political leaders. Every single person I’ve met who studied leadership studies at any university level has been the absolute worst leader. There are some things that either can’t be taught or can’t be taught that late in life. I always go back to when I rode horses. My instructor told me that I’m the one in control but I ALWAYS take care of my horse first cuz without the horse, I’m not a rider.

Maria Albanese

So good I loved this topic. I think I get it leadership and how you lead comes from your world view. I have had lots of CEOs for example that ran my company and they all lead differently. Some absolutely lead from (love) compassion, empathy, and inclusion. Others were bullies and just had their best interest at heart. I would imagine some mothers being a leader would absolutely lead their households in the manner of their world view.

Paula Marie Cornell

My thoughts are … “DO YOU WANT TO BE RIGHT OR HAVE PEACE?” These females definitely made a choice for being “right”.

Ronald Helm

WONDER WHAT DR.JOHN THINKS ABOUT LAUREN’S NEW LIPS ?

Jennifer Kines

The LDS church might preach “leading with love” but they don’t actually practice it.

Kathy Stay

Happy Belated Birthday Lauren! I say, celebrate it all month long!!

Kathy Stay

I disagree! The LDS CHURCH has Strong Leadership! The General Relief Society President of our Church, is a Lawyer! (Although when she was called to the position, she gave up her practice. ) Now that’s not to say, that she may not go back and practice when she is released?! All of the women in the High Leadership Roles of the Church, have been successful Women! Some are single and have never married, but they are ALL HELD in the HIGHEST REGARD, by ALL THE GENERAL AUTHORITIES, and FIRST PRESIDENCY OF THE CHURCH! They are not considered “Less than!” Now I on the other hand, I have Two College Degrees, I never married, and I had to have a Hysterectomy at age 31. ALL I EVER WANTED, from the time I was a very little girl, was TO GROW UP AND BE A MOTHER! I Was SHATTERED!!! When I was diagnosed with Endometriosis, and finally had to have a Hysterectomy!! So women like Lori Vallow Daybell , Ruby Franke, and Jodi Hildebrandt, TOTALLY PISS ME OFF!!!! I led with ❤️ when I taught Primary in two different Wards, in S. Ogden for 10 years, and in Provo for 7 1/2. These were MY KIDS!! Dr. John, Women have a lot more power and input in the Church than you realize! btw….MAURICE HARKER????? I knew his family! I had a Psychology class with him in High School! Our Father’s Worked together at Intermountain Healthcare. His Parents are WONDERFUL PEOPLE! He is one of 9 sons! I don’t know WHERE HE WENT WRONG?! 🤔🥲 I apologize for the very long post! I also grew up around the very AMAZING CHIEKO OKAZAKI!! Who spent many years as an Educator in Denver, CO and then SLC UT. Before being called into the General Relief Society. I have NO DESIRE to hold the Priesthood! FTR! 🤷‍♀️

Kathy Stay
>>162434681

My ward actually does. I’m sorry if you have had a bad experience. My Bishop happens to live across the street from me, and was always very compassionate even before he was put in as Bishop. He and his family do our yard work. His Counselors are good men. We have good members who look out for us. My mother is 96, and is losing her sight. My health has drastically gone down hill in the last 7 yrs. So we don’t get to Church much. AND…We just changed to the 9am schedule! I hope things will get better for you.

Kathy Stay
>>162121692

You DO KNOW, that at one point, Lori was PRIMARY PRESIDENT, in one of her Wards?! (Don’t know when…) But the thought is truly frightening!

Barbarella

New Patreon member here. I have watched most of your YouTube videos and I'm just starting on the podcasts. I grew up in the Lutheran church in the seventies. I have worked and soul searched for many years trying to find and examine the many ways in which I was repressed. I have a complicated history with sexual abuse starting when I was 5 or so from an old man down the alley, then alcoholic father from a family of alcoholics for generations, and rape as a teenager all while understanding that "in the eyes of God I was unworthy of love and forgiveness because I was guilty of the sin of premarital sex. I rather enjoy Dr. John's analysis and connections. I did my BA in English literature with a minor in Classics so I appreciate the many references. Thank you both.

Lori

I think that the best Leaders are work with your followers as Mentors to Build those up. Lori and Ruby have no love and mentorship for the followers Bloom into their own. God is like your father tough love at Times.

Lori

Leaders know who is good at what and capabilities to grow. Not all people want to lead.

Marmalade's Mom

My thoughts to the original question FWIW as an Utah born and raised ex-Mormon: Yes there are issues around the church and its relationship with its female members. The church is a gerontocracy which means it takes a long time to change to address the concerns of younger members who would like the church to get with the times rather than being firmly stuck in the 1940s/1950s. I’m sure that frustrates women with power as a primary motivation to no end, and in their effort to find an “appropriate” outlet, they might find some unhealthy solutions. That said, I think the bigger root behind all of these cases is, as Lauren has called it, the “Mormon prepper” movement. Apocalyptic undertones are nothing new in the church, but in the last 10-20 years there have been some members that have taken on a neofundamentalist bent who really truly believe the end is coming very soon, and are determined to be ready no matter what. The problem is that Mormon theology doesn’t really have a concept of grace the way many other Christian denominations would understand it. It is on you to do everything “right” so that you and your family receive exaltation. Yes this is oversimplified to the point of being almost ludicrous; but the result is that some of these folks have been utterly consumed by scrupulosity. For some of them that have the right personality factors there is literally NOTHING they won’t do to be and force those around them to be “perfect.” Charles and Tammy are standing between Lorie and Chad being together and fulfilling and their “mission” to gather the 144,000. So they’ve got to go. JJ and Tylie are refusing to be the perfectly obedient selfless children, so they must be possessed and they gotta go. The Franke children are refusing to be perfectly obedient selfless children so Ruby and Jodi resort to torture to try to “force them” to conform.

Tammy Morgan

My thoughts of the Mormon church is they try to control everything and is obsessed with sexual activity. They do not allow grace for sin. We are all sinners. Jesus died for us all so that we can repent and be forgiven. No one in the Mormon church has the authority to do what Jesus has done. Woman have very important roles in society and they should be respected.

Tammy Morgan

Leading with love does not mean “ come here and let me give you a hug” then as they leave hugging, you kick them in the butt. That’s how I saw Ruby and Lori. That’s not love. It’s malicious behavior that does the complete opposite. Ruby did not see motherhood as a blessing but a duty. Her duty was to have kids. Unconditional love is not a part of duty.

Bridget Jeter

How did I miss this?? 🤦‍♀️

Debi
>>162722653

Christian Evangelicals “talk” about grace but they don’t show it. They are very judgmental about “other” communities: LGBTQ—especially trans, immigrants, refugees, women’s rights. The bullying, name calling, self righteousness, greed, etc. is evident in the evangelical MAGA contingency.😢

Marmalade's Mom
>>162722653

Exactly, the neofundamentalist types within Mormonism are becoming increasingly more aligned with evangelical ideals and there is a huge amount of overlap between both groups and MAGA, project 2025, and Qanon. It makes for a pretty volatile mix that will likely claim more lives before it all winds down. I suspect there is a coming rift in the mainstream Mormon church. I suspect the mainstream will be forced to become slightly more progressive and inclusive in the next decade in order to survive in anything but name. Meanwhile the neofundamentalist/prepper/wannabe evangelical sorts I suspect will branch off and become something else entirely.

Marci Welcker

Not every woman should be a mom. When you’re taught your whole life that it is the only thing you should aspire to, you will become one even if you would be better at doing something different. The LDS church has taught that we as women should want to do this and it can create a lot of chaos internally for women. It’s a lot of pressure.